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He didn’t… but then he did. Saying it back (and I really think he means it too) was great, but then he made light of the fact that he said it, which was Danny all over.
Y’know what makes it worse?
Not only is Walkiy out out-Daning Danny in his relationship with Dorothy, but Dorothy is also Danning herself by imitating Danny when he danned himself in his relationship with her…
No, she’s not yet the Danny, because she’s actually listening and living in the reality of her relationship. Her desires for the relationship have shifted and she’s letting him know, instead of just pretending they were suddenly super serious and he should know that already.
Except she kinda is doing that. Sure, she’s more aware than Danny was, but she’s still springing the love card without warning, and hoping for him to reciprocate. She’s yet to actually tell him she wants to get serious, so until she does that, she’s the Danny.
Meanwhile, Danny’s actually expressing some sense with Amber, was giving her some space, and actually took a hint to get away after she seemingly avoided him. He was wrong, but Danny actually didn’t Dan it up. What is the universe coming to?
You do it by walkying it up. It’s like a meta version of dannying it up. Dannying simply causes problems. Walkying fixes problems and makes others worse. It’s multitasking!
It is always easier to say things you think using the word feelings rather than explain how men really work. Walky has done both… Oh well, better luck next girlfriend.
Avoiding possible drama by saying “I love you, too” could count as a rational decision – but telling her about that is more in the Too Dumb To Live column, I think.
Try to read “Harry Potter & the Methods of Rationality” (a scientific-minded Harry Potter) or perhaps “Luminosity” (a take on ‘Twilight’ with an intelligent and introspective Bella) or “Worm” (or “Metropolitan Man”) for a a slightly more rational take on superheroes than you’d usually see…
I love “Methods of Rationality” (despite its preachiness), and I love “Worm”… but it should be noted that “Worm” is “rational” in the sense of “people with powers actually try to use them creatively, and the world actually has to deal with the sociological effects of superpowers”. Not in the sense of the characters behaving in an ultimately rational manner.
I want to say this makes a kind-of sense, but again I haven’t dated in a long time so me thinking that makes sense makes me not having dated much make sense.
It was an asymmetrical gambit by Dorothy. Little risk with a potential high reward. Walky turned it right around and defused the bomb. She loves him and is planning to dump him later. Remember him fondly, but dump him anyway. Walky knows this and is a touch touchy about it. He’s seen this movie before.
No, I think she was doing the “take all the meaning out” bit. She was doing the ritual “I love you too” which is supposedly ultra-hard to be spoken even when mutually known, as depicted in popular culture.
Walky not only could say “I love you” and mean it, he could also present it in its purest and most honest form, removed from the ritual trappings.
This. This right here. He’s taking ownership of the relationship. This is a temporary thing, and he’s not letting it get deep and emotional. If she wants to cry about him not taking it seriously, then frankly, that’s HER FAULT.
I can’t even understand how this could be taken negatively at all, he loves her and is mature about it, more mature than most people, including “grown-ups” .
Poor Danny. The girl leaves him to pursue academics, a few weeks in and she starts shaking up with some jerk off, and then loves him.
Sure Dan has his own things going, but I would find that to be a serious personal wound.
Shaking(or shacking up with, or shanking for that matter) a baby is a very bad idea. Don’t do it, seriously. It can kill them or cause permanent brain damage, and is one of the most common deadly mistakes made by babysitters or young parents.
She left him because he was a clingy oblivious guy who didn’t really believe in her or her goals and hoped she’d abandon them and cling back to him to fulfill some romantic fantasy he made up in his head.
Gonna give Walky the benefit of the doubt here and say he does legit mean what he said. Even though the way he phrases all of that made me think for a moment he just said it to “avoid” the drama of not saying it.
Walky meant what he said, he just found a way to defuse all of the gushy sentiment and tear-jerking that exchanging that sentiment usually evokes. It’s actually quite brilliant.
This is the part where someone sings a little song I like to call “Hey, why don’t you shut the fuck up? Whhhhhy don’t you just shut the fuck up? ‘Cause you’re gonna make her very angry.”
Panel 1: Huh, maybe Joyce IS actually nursing a hugely unrealized crush on Dorothy
Panel 4: Huh, I wonder if the next strip will be Joyce flipping a shit over Walky devaluing the meaning of ‘I love you” or whether it’ll be Dorothy being disappointed in Walky’s lack of emotional commitment
Oh I agree completely. I just still can’t tell/decide if this was Walky acting like it was a joke because he has trouble with feelings and being serious (and he really did mean it) or if he really does want to “free them” or whatnot. I’m not support thrilled with Dorothy’s actions, but I also think he could have handled this better.
love means: i´m jumping off whatever we have whenever the things i really care for come around, say better jobs, studies or childhood friends. ’cause love is not super serious or anything.
Welcome back to Swerve’s! So have you been following the latest in “Dumbing of Age?”
…
“You haven’t? Well Dorothy opened up to Walky, and told him she loved him. And what does he do? He nonchalantly says, “I love you” back. But he doesn’t mean it; he’s just trying to avoid pulling the drama tag in their relationship.”
…
“Oh yeah. See, way I see it, Walky wants to keep the relationship going, so he tells Dorothy he loves her. But he then acts like he’s been hit by Brainstorm’s meta-gun, and proceeds to explain that he only said it to avoid complications in their relationship of the sort found in wacky romantic comedies.”
…
“Where do I see this going? Well, Dorothy’s shown a lot of patience with Walky. If she really loves him, she’ll put up with this too. Anyway, what can I get you to drink?”
Getting attacked by a script from pixel.mathtag.com when visiting DoA. I can’t say for sure that it’s malware but it’s trying to execute itself improperly. This happened a few weeks ago but I guess the ad’s still running.
Walky has made an extremely valid point about how the words ‘I love you’ are used in popular media, but the only way he could have made the point at a worse time than this is if he’d proposed to Dorothy and then said this in his wedding vows.
Look, Walky, I agree with you, but saying this NOW is probably going to make Dorothy think that you don’t actually love her back and that you’re just saying it to avoid falling into a contrived trope. Good job.
I’m less concerned with Walky cracking a joke after saying I love you than I am with Dorothy acting like a jealous nut (with senior violent judgmental nut Joyce guest starring) then dropping I love you on him.
She didn’t want a serious relationship, he reminded her of that, and now she’s ok with Mike being assaulted for the crime of not wanting them in his room and spouting proclamations of love. That just…yecch.
Of course,this isn’t Rational Clear Decisions of Age is it?
Dorothy’s I love you is heard by Walky knowing that he is just a temporary thing for her. By her choice. He’s just reminding her of the terms of the relationship, terms she dictated.
So, first let me say I do not normally critique or cast aspersions, since I am not a creative (artistic) person, but… panel 3, Walky’s nose. Have they always been that way? It’s unfortunate, because now that I’ve seen the great black one-hole nose, I can’t unsee it, and it may have ruined the comic for me.
This is Walky’s defense mechanism, (although Dorothy probably wont see it that way) he does love her, but Dorothy keeps mentioning how things are temporary, or short termed.
I am probably alone here, but I see absolutely no problem with anything Walky said. I think he’s probably right, in fact. Regardless of what Dorothy said in panel one, she did want him to be on the spot, and she did want him to say it back: ‘I thought I’d have to extort it out of you’. If he didn’t say it back regardless of how he actually feels, it’d turn into a big thing, because she wants the words regardless of the reality. So for me, he actually gets bonus points for honesty by explaining where he’s coming from and preventing future misunderstanding.
When Dorothy says that love can be a powerful word, she’s saying that she expected it to be powerful for him. Not necessarily for her, though that squishy expression in panel two tells me the feeling is powerful for her even if the word itself might not be. So Walky’s honesty complicates things for Dorothy, but he’s done a good job being loving to her: supporting her, believing in her, helping her with things that are important to her, in addition to the simpler physical affection. If Dorothy gets mad at him for this, I’ll think a little less of her good sense.
You’re not alone at all. He’s not saying he doesn’t actually *feel* those things, or that they don’t matter to him. He prefers his relationship to be down-to-earth than live in a fantasy fiction with an idealized “star-crossed lovers” romance. His feelings are simple and honest, and I think that’s a good thing.
She didn’t *want* to put him on the spot but she was willing to. At least she tried to let him know that he shouldn’t feel obligated to say it if she didn’t want to, but she lets on in panel two that she privately very much cared what his response would be, to the point where she at least considered “extorting it out of him”, if necessary.
While I agree with and understand Walky’s sentiment here, I don’t think his response to Dorothy was sensitive, nor was it very effective at diffusing potential drama. He told her that he only said “I love you too” so they could avoid making it into some sort of Thing, but he doesn’t also clarify that he said it because he did, in fact, love her. I think he likely does, but you can’t really tell from what he said.
He could have said “Well, it’s true, so I don’t see why we have to make a big deal of it” and left it at that; the fact that he goes on a big spiel about it makes it pretty obvious that it *is* something of a big deal to him.
Another reason why I think this is a big deal to Walky is because of Walky’s expressions. They seem so painful. I remember there was a similar expression several strips ago when Dorothy tells him she wants him to feel able to be honest with her and Walky reminds her she’s eventually leaving him for Yale. So I think this is about that, again. I think this will be an Ongoing Thing.
Walky is Walky. If he was very articulate, sensitive to feelings and aware of when to get super serious, we’d be dealing with a different character. I’m hoping Dorothy reads it as that herself since it would imply that they’ve gotten to understand eachother’s way of thinking through this. As I said below though, I’m sort of expecting her to get nervous about whether it counts and some drama to happen.
That said, Walky’s painful expression comes out not when he says “I love you” but when Dorothy tells him that she expected to have to extort it out of him; At that stage it becomes a ‘big deal’ and Walky isn’t good at that. So he deflects it and rambles to be like “See, I didn’t want this to be a big thing”. Over all, I think Walky is fine with admitting that he cares for her and even loves her but not with Sentimentalist stuff that might come along with it.
Nah, Comments are fairly split on it. I know both myself and my partners in the past have treated this sort of thing with a degree of levity and joking around since its a touchy and sentimental subject and some people deal with that best with humour (myself included). Usually, it’s something that you come to expect as a character tick in the person and if you’ve come to a stage where you feel you love them, you usually recognize it and maybe enjoy it; I’m willing to suspect Dorothy will be cool about it on that point. Though, she might also get a bit neurotic once she starts to think about it, but I don’t expect anger. I’ve been wrong before though.
Also, in her defence, I read “I thought I’d have extort it out of you” as “I thought you’d be so awkward about expressing love (since Walky does have a view of “bleck, feelings) that I’d have to coax you into admitting it”. So I mean, more a matter of making him feel comfortable with the term and dealing with his inability to express it until then than holding him over a boiling cauldron and shouting “TELL ME YOU LOVE ME”.
that was Surprisingly deep for Walky, granted its based on his TV ideology, noting the fact that the word love is only as powerful as we make it. Thats why im always just in lesbian with people, that and the fact that im a lesbian soul in a man’s body
He’s right though. Words are just words, it’s the feelings themselves that are poweful. Love is powerful, the word isn’t. But today we have a tendency to imbue words with powers just by being a word, even if they are just a jumble of letters after each other. We have never, as a society, been so preoccupied with words as we are today, words are used to empower, to belittle, to make a point completely apart from their ACTUAL meaning. Heck, we even DEBATE over which words to use. And it is all very, very silly. It seems to me we create a lot of drama just because we can, because we see people in stories and in stories there is always drama so we try to recreate that drama subconciously even if there is no *actual* drama, *actual* feelings involved. And since stories are made up of words, the words themselves become elated and eventually loose their meaning (namely, conveing thoughts, ideas and emotions). So, yeah, there should be NO hesitation over saying “I love you”. He loves her right now, but as with all emotions they fluctuate, maybe in 2 seconds he won’t, and in 4 seconds he will, that doesn’t mean that it is a lie nor that it implies commitment, neither should it.
That moment in your life where you realize you should’ve acted like Walky and not yourself. When walky is better man you, then you have a big problem. :/
For some people it started when she broke with Danny, by completely ignoring her actual reasons and instead using one coming from those people’s collective ass (just like Danny himself did. Basically, too many readers *are* Danny).
It just went downhill from there; you can read the comments of every comic where Dorothy does anything at all and see people talking about some horrible character also named Dorothy only they can see.
By the way, the moment she realized her love was when she saw how much notDanny Walky is.
She’s generally not, but there are a small handful of individuals that hate her at a frightening pitch that suggests perhaps other factors are in play.
Dave,
I really don’t understand the Dorothy -hate myself. She’s almost
always kind, compassionate, thoughtful, disciplined, and the
very model of sincere integrity . She’s tolerant of differences,
makes friends easily and sees past superficial differences. She
is the character I would most like to be friends with…
But she is not-perfect. Which is a fabulous thing for narrative
purposes, or she would be seem like that Name Word-of-God
has banned. She is also overly-controlled, cerebral, ambitious,
and acts with extreme pre-meditation. I generally find you
write her to be non-pretentious. Yet that characteristic is in
tension to her other personality traits ( like discipline, and
pre-meditation ) .
Your writing is enjoyable for how you let these internal conflicts
play out In all your characters.
( I am still hoping for a more flesh-out version of Mary. Given
time I think you may write her as a villain we love to hate . I
dont need you to make her decent. She could be a wonderful
study of the “banality-of-evil” )
One of the Defining feautures of Dorothy is her Stellar-high
emotional intelligence. We see this in action in the last few
days. Its also why her goal of being President isnt meritless.
As someone whos met with and chatted with the Clintons; and
witnessed separately their command of a room, and/ or
personal space , I find your writing of Dorothy quite realistic
and enjoyable. ( If anything, Hillarys extreme
non-pretentiousness —I witnessed — might be a barrier
she had to cross in her Poltical Career. )
That is why I am surprised to see , what I believed were
my thoughtful comments about Dorothys relationship to
walky removed , and here, possbily Stigmatized, as
someone who ‘hates Dorothy’ “at a frightening pitch” .
( Definitley, NOT! )
That surprises me for multiple reasons, not least of
which I dont remember the fever-pitch outright-
hatred of other pro-social characters censored. I waited
a year before first commenting , ( and despite this
ridiculous book-length comment ) could easily feel
my participation is unwanted. If I crossed a red-line
I would rather know about it, then feel afraid to interact here.
Given her thoughfulness, integrity, and high-emotional
intelligence, I do think her inept handling of breaking
up with Danny, is worthy of criticism. ( You titled this
“Dumbing of Age” for reasons. ) Granted this was
written for comedic value; and for all we know she
dumped him all summer long , and he never understood.
But the flipside is thats its practically the only thing she
has ever done, truly worthy of criticism. Other than
that, she is rather a wonderful human being. If you
wish to ban criticism of how she handled Danny,
( or Walky ) it is your comic and your prerogative.
But unless you write more flaws into her, its nearly the
equivalent of placing Dorothy above criticism — which
is also your prerogative.
I did say I found her to be emotionally manipulative.
Its possible in the context of the insane mysognistic
gamer-gate bullshit * ( you interact with on twitter )
my comment might appear to be loaded. It wasnt.
Potential emotional manipulation , even accidentally,
and unconscious, is the flip side of having a high
emotional intelligence . Its actually a credit to you,
that you are writing realistic characters with realist
flaws, appropriate to their virtues. This isnt something
I made up:
Emotional intelligence and moral agency: Some worries and a suggestion http://philpapers.org/rec/RIEEIA-2
*The ethics of managing affective and emotional states to improve informed consent: Autonomy, comprehension, and voluntariness* http://philpapers.org/rec/BRATEO-8
Thats the thing. Humans arent born with Good and bait traits.
Most of us simply have neutral personality characteristics
that have virtues and flaws, depending on context, usage
and behavior.
Its also possible you dont intend to write her that way.
But you can see this is a reasonable interpretation ( not loaded with bias or animus ) based solely on her strengths and virtues.
* i am loathe to even use the term “gamergate” on social media;
lest its Jnr High-school level of stupid, be reflected back to me,
like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG__upqGgRY .
YMMV
Sorry Willis ( and everyone )
The spacing on this came out so bad I want to poke out my eyes. My fault for overcorrecting text , which didnt properly wrap.
Some people have decided that Dorothy is an evil woman devoid of real emotions who will fuck over everyone and anyone in pursuit of her goals. Even though they get proven wrong again and again they keep right at it.
The whole busting into Walky’s room and letting Joyce hobble Mike was something where I saw people commenting that it wouldn’t bode well. In their defence, it probably wasn’t the most soberminded thing to do.
Another element which Timemonkey brings up is that she started this relationship as a casual one with Walky that she is planning on dropping in a couple of months so she can go to Yale. In that context, dropping an “I love you” on the other person is pretty unfair to them (Which Walky himself brought up). Though, these people aren’t seeing that Dorothy would probably be pretty conflicted about actually going to Yale at this point and in a lot of stories, this sort of thing would climax in her turning down an acceptance letter to choose to be with her friends. That said, I’d applaud Willis for writing her chasing her dreams but learning to have a bit more perspective while doing so.
I sort of suspect though that what will actually happen is that she gets a rejection letter and shit goes crazy but the people who hate her will keep believing she’d have ditched them in a second given the chance.
A) Dorothy is not Joyce’s keeper and in no way LET her kick a dude.
B) Dorothy expressed disapproval of the kick, for the record.
C) And most importantly, why are all of Dorothy’s “flaws” centered around hurting or upsetting poor, defenseless dudes, who apparently cannot take care of themselves? Especially when she is the most considerate, respectful, and aware person, in the student cast. Towards everyone, even those who do not deserve it.
I don’t hate Dorothy at all, I quite like her. I just think that for someone who is generally extremely clear-headed and sensible, honest and forthright, caring and kind in her dealings with people, she has a very difficult time being all those awesome things in romantic relationships.
She should have broken up with Danny months before she actually did, and admitted as much to him, for one thing. How their relationship actually worked when they were both in it, we don’t know, because we only saw the end.
And now she’s kind of whiplashing Walky back and forth, swinging between casual-mode (the established mode of this relationship right from the start) ‘cartoons and cuddle time, no more, because I’m leaving soon’ to varying degrees of serious ranging from ‘We should be able to tell each other everything because we are that kind of together’ to ‘I love you and I plan to extort it out of you if you don’t say it back’.
It’s an understandable hole in her general awesomeness, but it can be a frustrating one in a webcomic centered generally around relationships between people.
She has said she should have broken up with him earlier, for his own sake.
She also could have broken up with him later, giving him more time. That she is spending the remaining months that they could be together with someone else (whose heart she may or may not plan on breaking) could be construed as insulting or selfish.
Fortunately Danny is more mature about these things than people give him credit for. (He’d have to be, being friends with Joe, who treats other people’s feelings like toys.) No suicide attempts, no drunken phone calls, no petty vandalism, not even bad poetry (as far as we know). He just accepted it and moved on suspiciously quickly.
Her actual reasons are never explicitly given, short of: It was ultimately inevitable anyway, so why wait. (Which is not really a reason.)
She said she loved Danny, but didn’t expect him to love her back unconditionally (apparently every boy before him was sick of her), which is naturally why she had to break up with him. (Walky doesn’t disappoint in that respect, so naturally she is disappointed.)
She said she was worried that he sacrificed his own life for her, which he absoultely was prepared to, if she wanted it, but made explicit that he hadn’t sacrificed anything so far, nor saw the need. Some people have read that as him not believing in her. Some people have read that as him being shallow. Some people have read that as him being sexist. Some people are looking for other reasons why Dorothy had to break up with him, and blame him for everything from indigestion to the bubonic plague. In short, people made up all kinds of reasons why she broke up with him.
And some people blame Dorothy.
<>hyperbole class=”unfounded”>Women like her are the reason the suicide rate among men is far higher than among women.</hyperbole>
(But seriously, isn’t it better to have loved and lost that to have just lost never loved at all?)
“made explicit that he hadn’t sacrificed anything so far”: I don’t know about you, but I read Danny being in total denial as the punchline there.
That said, I think the break-up was for the best and both of them are pretty decent over all. Both have some growing up to do certainly (Danny in particular) but as you said, neither are remotely as bad as anti-fans make them out to be.
I think that’s pretty reasonable. If we’re throwing “I love you”‘s around a few weeks into knowing eachother, within the context of an agreed temporary relationship, then it’s pretty safe to say we’re not talking about one of the big time commitment moving the relationship into new territory sorts of love.
He makes her heart go pitter patter. The feeling is mutual. No need to make it anything more than it is. They can both acknowledge and express their love without this devolving into Shakespearean hijinks.
Wow, got a little whiplash from that one. Saying it back (assuming he really feels that way) is a great, avoid-the-unnecessary-dramatic-conflict-move. Actually a little surprising in the maturity coming form David “girls are gross” Walkerton. Then immediately implying that a) you are just saying it to avoid the drama of NOT saying it, or b) you may have meant it but you think its meaningless? Not so smart but more I’d expect from Walky
I think people are being uncharitable to Walky here. I don’t think he’s saying the words without meaning them; I think he’s recognizing that love can be real without being fairytale-style eternal true love. He understands that Dorothy can sincerely love him and still eventually move on to Yale and the White House, and he understands that he can sincerely love her and still not get butthurt about their relationship having a time limit.
He’s just also really bad at expressing that and probably doesn’t fully understand his own wisdom on this point. He is, after all, Walky.
Walky gives her exactly what she wants and then takes away its value.
Dorothy has a decision to make. It’s either just for funzies or it’s completely serious. Walky isn’t letting her have it both ways. Nor should he. Not if he wants more. If she wants more, she has to take the emotional risk of saying so.
It would be fine to just give her what she wants if he wants to be a doormat and be Dannied when the time comes, or if he’s emotionally dishonest and just wants to keep her happy so the sex’n’stuff keeps coming. But the only one who can change the ground rules is her. Walky’s answer isn’t going to satisfy her but if she’s satisfied then she has no motive to change anything.
The past tense of “When somebody Loved Me” is intentionally ominous. When we started out with the Sal and Marcie flashback we assumed it was about Sal. When we hit the development with Billie and Ruth, we assumed it would relate to their story. Now with Dorothy and Walky’s relationship evolving we have a tendancy to asume it relates to them. I’m going to go way out on a limb here and say I think the title probably relates to Ethan and his prior relationship with Amber.
today in #9chickweedlane i learned that man we've been speedrunning twins marriage stuff for so long, that I'd forgotten that a major component of the strip usually is Yet Another Flashback To Children Learning What Sex Is, But A Different Way This Time Than Last Time
"She says you have four kids all under the age of seven, and one of them's named Jeffy? And to not look immediately to your right, because there he is????"
disassembled my omega prime, leaving an intact bottom half, and @toyboxcomix.com was like "hey you should put the top half of armada prime on that" and i did and I made Omegada Prime
(aka ohmigerd prime)
Just wildly flailing his arms, randomly repeating things he has heard that made people laugh, utterly unable to discern *why* they made them laugh, hoping beyond hope he will accidentally hit the target
Brian Tyler Cohen@briantylercohen.bsky.social ⋅ 16h
Early access is now available to TRANSFORMERS: THE BASICS on OVERRIDE! A high-speed history of the leader of Velocitron, and the almost-forgotten G1 Triggerbot from whom she takes her name!
Watch now on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/127657...
Or for members on YT: www.youtube.com/@ChrisMcFeel...
The Ohioana Book Festival is a real event here in Columbus that's next weekend. Anyway, knowledge is a curse and so I'm upset it's drawn like a comic convention, with the cloth cubicles, rather than the rows of tables at a library that it really is.
We still need about $470 to make rent - if you’re able to help, we could surely use it. Thank you!
Mae Dean@maegodhavemercy.com ⋅ 1d
Hey folks - I’m still looking for work, and as much as I hate having to ask, I could use a bit of help getting the rent paid. If there’s any way you could help, I’m “MaeGodHaveMercy” on PayPal, Venmo and Cashapp.
Thank you in advance - you’ve all helped me more than I can ever explain.
there's this thing in journalism that really gets me mad. the ben smiths of the world will look at you like you're crazy for simply stating what is actually happening all the way up to the moment they report on it themselves with wide eyed wonder, and then its their story that goes megaviral.
that a bunch of billionaires have been irreversibly brainwormed by getting addicted to a glorified chat room adds credence to my theory that spending too much time on IRC as a child acts as a powerful inoculant to the worst impulses of an escalatory group dynamic
what do you mean dr wu is making a marvel-style broadside?????????
and he's about 5 inches tall so that he's to cartoon scale with the rest of their tiny-scale figures
For April's first bonus strip, folks voted for KAITLIN, Becky's former roommate if you remember! Read this bonus strip and hundreds of previous at the Dumbing of Age Patreon: patreon.com/dumbingofage
and remember you can always pledge up to read tomorrow's strip right the eff now
Bayjmin Tuckles @bayjmin-tuckles.bsky.social ⋅ 12h
Brian Tyler Cohen @briantylercohen.bsky.social ⋅ 16h
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FREE FROM LOVE
FREE FROM LOVE
THANK CHEESE ALMIGHTY
I’M FREE FROM LOVE
…waitaminit
And in true male fashion he digs himself a whole straight through the earth.
It’s called an escape hatch.
I say he loves her, and he harbors no doubts. He just doesn’t understand the implications of what that means for her and her “life plan”. Silly boy.
Wow Walky. Way to… Anti-Dan it up?
He didn’t… but then he did. Saying it back (and I really think he means it too) was great, but then he made light of the fact that he said it, which was Danny all over.
But I mean, he managed to Dan it up by saying a thing which was 100% un-Danny. That’s art in wordplay, that is.
So he fixed a problem before it started, then just introduced a possibly worse one? How the Hell do you out-Dan Danny?!
By being walky.
Remember, the comic that replaced roomies was itswalky.
Y’know what makes it worse?
Not only is Walkiy out out-Daning Danny in his relationship with Dorothy, but Dorothy is also Danning herself by imitating Danny when he danned himself in his relationship with her…
The circle has come full Dan.
“The cycle is now complete.
When I left you I was but a Dan, now I am a Walky.”
“Only a Walky of Evil.”
Don’t you know? You never go full Dan!
Even worse, I think Walky just crossed the Dans.
If you never cross your Dan’s
You never defeat Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man’s!
If you walk without Danny, you won’t attract the… uhh… Ethan-worm.
(I’m not sure how I jumped from Ghostbusters to Dune, but whatever, I’m rollin’ with it.)
Never Go Full Dan
No, she’s not yet the Danny, because she’s actually listening and living in the reality of her relationship. Her desires for the relationship have shifted and she’s letting him know, instead of just pretending they were suddenly super serious and he should know that already.
Except she kinda is doing that. Sure, she’s more aware than Danny was, but she’s still springing the love card without warning, and hoping for him to reciprocate. She’s yet to actually tell him she wants to get serious, so until she does that, she’s the Danny.
Meanwhile, Danny’s actually expressing some sense with Amber, was giving her some space, and actually took a hint to get away after she seemingly avoided him. He was wrong, but Danny actually didn’t Dan it up. What is the universe coming to?
You do it by walkying it up. It’s like a meta version of dannying it up. Dannying simply causes problems. Walkying fixes problems and makes others worse. It’s multitasking!
That was… anti-climactic. Good job, Walky? I guess?
Truly Walky is a man amongst men.
He might be onto something with that one.
It is always easier to say things you think using the word feelings rather than explain how men really work. Walky has done both… Oh well, better luck next girlfriend.
um it doesnt work the way you think it works walky
I cant tell if this is good or bad…
It’s Walky.
It… It’s Walky.
Laugh track
Roll credits
What would be the theme song for this comic to run over the credits?
Yakety Sax?
I imagine more something along these lines.
Man, if I wasn’t Immortal, that would totally be my funeral music.
Because of denial, I’m immortal!
I’m with Jen A. on this one
that was suprisingly mature…
This is Walky we’re talking about here, he’s actually pretty smart. That may have just been his cunning way of redirecting responsibility.
All I can focus on for some reason is Joyce’s face in the first panel.
I choose to read it as “Damn, I guess I missed my chance”
I know, she looks really upset. Maybe she’ll finally realize she’s totally in love with Dorothy, FINALLY
Genre-savvy, but…wait…no.
No, yes, genre savvy. Just… Uh. You know, saying the logic behind it afterward was the problem.
He went from Dangerously Genre Savvy to Wrong Genre savvy in just one panel.
Wouldn’t Wrong Genre-Savvy imply that there’s a genre where it’s okay to spell these things out?
Something where characters can break the fourth wall?
Rational Fic?
Is that a thing? Like where characters actually make reasonable decisions?
Sounds boring.
Sort of.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RationalFic
Avoiding possible drama by saying “I love you, too” could count as a rational decision – but telling her about that is more in the Too Dumb To Live column, I think.
Try to read “Harry Potter & the Methods of Rationality” (a scientific-minded Harry Potter) or perhaps “Luminosity” (a take on ‘Twilight’ with an intelligent and introspective Bella) or “Worm” (or “Metropolitan Man”) for a a slightly more rational take on superheroes than you’d usually see…
I love “Methods of Rationality” (despite its preachiness), and I love “Worm”… but it should be noted that “Worm” is “rational” in the sense of “people with powers actually try to use them creatively, and the world actually has to deal with the sociological effects of superpowers”. Not in the sense of the characters behaving in an ultimately rational manner.
Oh, the downward spiral.
WHY IS THERE HAPPINESS???!!!
So it can be taken away from you afterwards, why else.
Indeed!
Because, of course, you are going to be sad later.
Nice DW reference.
And that is a very good job of defusing an explosive situation.
Not so much “defusing” as sitting on and farting.
Hmmm, why do I get the feeling this isn’t going to work out as well as Walky seems to think?
Ooh, the tyranny of love, I think that could be the premise of the next YA dystopia series.
“I don’t love you!”
“That’s illegal. I should report you.”
I’d read it.
I was hoping he would say those three important words.
not THOSE three words???
I’m afraid not.
I thought they were “Viagra’s Kickin’ In!”
That or “Stop, Hammer Time”.
These are always the correct three words.
Especially if you’re inexplicably wearing parachute pants.
Rocket Powered Fist?
Mint Berry Crunch!
Romantic fist attachment?
*counts off on fingers* Your…twin…sister…
Nope, too long.
Your mom. Nickel.
I’m a vampire!
I am Groot
I am Groot!
Here, a puppy!
Dang. I searched for cheese before making that same joke, but of course you don’t have to use the words… oh well.
Just Do It?
Pants are awesome?
Boom shaka laka?
Chronic butts disease?
Dorothy seems let down by Walky’s unwillingness to make this into a big deal.
Doroty problem is that she want the perks of a serious relationship while having clearly stated that she just wanted to have fun.
She also needs to reserve the right to change the terms at any point in time. Walky is simply expected to keep up when this happens.
Walky is free to object or call it off at any time. He’s even demonstrated his willingness to call the whole thing off if she crosses the line.
I want to say this makes a kind-of sense, but again I haven’t dated in a long time so me thinking that makes sense makes me not having dated much make sense.
So…yay Walky?
No, this only makes sense in Walky-world.
I’m not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed
But you do want to put him on the spot, Dorothy. You felt you had to say it.
But she made it clear she didn’t feel he had to.
At least at first. Slightly undercut by the second panel. Ah well. Least she cops to it.
It was an asymmetrical gambit by Dorothy. Little risk with a potential high reward. Walky turned it right around and defused the bomb. She loves him and is planning to dump him later. Remember him fondly, but dump him anyway. Walky knows this and is a touch touchy about it. He’s seen this movie before.
Goddammit, I’ve been filled with so much tension from things going too right, and this made me crack up.
If only you had access to a massage recliner.
That was really impressive by Walky
Ugh walky take all the meaning out of saying “I love you too” why dont you?
Been there, done that
No, I think she was doing the “take all the meaning out” bit. She was doing the ritual “I love you too” which is supposedly ultra-hard to be spoken even when mutually known, as depicted in popular culture.
Walky not only could say “I love you” and mean it, he could also present it in its purest and most honest form, removed from the ritual trappings.
I am shocked and appalled that people think this was a good move by Walky. Tears inc. next strip
Thing is, yet again he is following her ground rules. To The Letter.
Even when SHE isn’t.
In other words, SHE’S the Danny in this relationship.
Scary thought, isn’t it?
This. This right here. He’s taking ownership of the relationship. This is a temporary thing, and he’s not letting it get deep and emotional. If she wants to cry about him not taking it seriously, then frankly, that’s HER FAULT.
He’s not the one making things awkward here.
Yes, exactly this.
I can’t even understand how this could be taken negatively at all, he loves her and is mature about it, more mature than most people, including “grown-ups” .
The hell just happened?
a bit of an over-explanation there walky!!
For a moment there I thought he was going to stick the landing, then he somehow caught on fire. No points.
Negative points.
Imaginary points.
This is the show where the points don’t matter!
No, wait, this is the one where they do, but everyone keeps missing them entirely.
I guess Walky isn’t going to get a third act climax anymore.
Love is not just a plot device Walky!
… Wait
It’s a Drama Tag?
No trainwreck this time, then? Bah, many more trains careening dangerously on the tracks in this series.
Only a matter of time.
I don’t know what strip you just read, but this is careening hard around a corner.
But not yet a trainwreck. Before then, I wait.
The careening is in slow motion! This train wreck is practically a done deal.
Poor Danny. The girl leaves him to pursue academics, a few weeks in and she starts shaking up with some jerk off, and then loves him.
Sure Dan has his own things going, but I would find that to be a serious personal wound.
Maybe she will understand Danny a bit better after this… maybe…
Shacking, not shaking.
You shake a baby. You shack up with its mother.
How about shanking? He could shake fer world by shanking her while shacking with her? Or maybe as Chrome spellchecker suggests sharking?!?
I’m just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake.
Shake it off. Shake it off.
Shake, shake, shake senora
Shake your body line
Work, work, work senora
Work it all de time
Shaking(or shacking up with, or shanking for that matter) a baby is a very bad idea. Don’t do it, seriously. It can kill them or cause permanent brain damage, and is one of the most common deadly mistakes made by babysitters or young parents.
I’m pretty sure having moved on to someone else himself probably lessens the wound considerably.
She left him because he was a clingy oblivious guy who didn’t really believe in her or her goals and hoped she’d abandon them and cling back to him to fulfill some romantic fantasy he made up in his head.
So you are saying he will take it well?
Gonna give Walky the benefit of the doubt here and say he does legit mean what he said. Even though the way he phrases all of that made me think for a moment he just said it to “avoid” the drama of not saying it.
Yeah, we’ve established that Walky has difficulty saying things that are not jokes, so there’s really no other way this could’ve gone.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Walky, you’re an ass.
oh walky no……. she wanted you to actually mean it if you were gonna say it, not say it because you felt obligated or wanted to “get it out of the way”
Have her walk past him in pajama jeans and he’ll say it and with the same emotional backing as when she said it to him.
Walky meant what he said, he just found a way to defuse all of the gushy sentiment and tear-jerking that exchanging that sentiment usually evokes. It’s actually quite brilliant.
This is the part where someone sings a little song I like to call “Hey, why don’t you shut the fuck up? Whhhhhy don’t you just shut the fuck up? ‘Cause you’re gonna make her very angry.”
OK….
That was most awaringly self-aware. Walky’s channeling his inner Abed here.
Panel 1: Huh, maybe Joyce IS actually nursing a hugely unrealized crush on Dorothy
Panel 4: Huh, I wonder if the next strip will be Joyce flipping a shit over Walky devaluing the meaning of ‘I love you” or whether it’ll be Dorothy being disappointed in Walky’s lack of emotional commitment
Walky’s lack of emotional commitment. As opposed to Dorothy who uses him as her dressable boy toy until she is off to Yale.
She has just been testing her standing out of vanity, and Walky called it.
Dressable boy toy I swear to god
Apparently the answer was both
You know what other word can be powerful?
Butts!
Not if we don’t give it…
Oh, who am I kidding? Butts has power over us all!
I butts you guys.
Damn you Willis
for making me think drama was going to happen.
Things are coming to a boil, I think. Shouldn’t be long before there’s all the drama you could ever want.
Your avatar is very appropriate.
There is totally drama happening. It’s just not the cliché drama years of romantic comedies have led us to expect.
Willis is the embodiment of drama. All praise David Willis the Drama Lord.
Ohhh boy. Oh, Walky. You may not give the word meaning, but she does. And this little speech is not going to help you.
If she wanted a serious relationship she should have stayed with Danny.
Or at some point told Walky that things might have changed.
Oh I agree completely. I just still can’t tell/decide if this was Walky acting like it was a joke because he has trouble with feelings and being serious (and he really did mean it) or if he really does want to “free them” or whatnot. I’m not support thrilled with Dorothy’s actions, but I also think he could have handled this better.
Ah no. No. Walky, no!
Odds on Joyce staying at the same spot she’s at while this drama goes down.
Odds are currently two to one.
This is actually worse than I imagined
Almost right…then mega-fail.
Thank you, Walky.
love means: i´m jumping off whatever we have whenever the things i really care for come around, say better jobs, studies or childhood friends. ’cause love is not super serious or anything.
My favourite thing about this is Joyce’s look in the background
Wow walky… nice way to say the right thing… and then bungle it up by doing it for ALL THE WRONG REASONS.
My GF would kill me if I pulled somethung like that
But after reading Walky’s explanations…where are the lies tho? Pretty sure this is how MOST PEOPLE feel.
Welcome back to Swerve’s! So have you been following the latest in “Dumbing of Age?”
…
“You haven’t? Well Dorothy opened up to Walky, and told him she loved him. And what does he do? He nonchalantly says, “I love you” back. But he doesn’t mean it; he’s just trying to avoid pulling the drama tag in their relationship.”
…
“Oh yeah. See, way I see it, Walky wants to keep the relationship going, so he tells Dorothy he loves her. But he then acts like he’s been hit by Brainstorm’s meta-gun, and proceeds to explain that he only said it to avoid complications in their relationship of the sort found in wacky romantic comedies.”
…
“Where do I see this going? Well, Dorothy’s shown a lot of patience with Walky. If she really loves him, she’ll put up with this too. Anyway, what can I get you to drink?”
Is that a reference to the first episode of the second season of Friends?
Getting attacked by a script from pixel.mathtag.com when visiting DoA. I can’t say for sure that it’s malware but it’s trying to execute itself improperly. This happened a few weeks ago but I guess the ad’s still running.
i didnt see this coming, but walky’s reaction makes a lottt of sense. probably not the best way of handling it but its walky
Yeah, for some reason I feel like Walky just fucked up way more than he’s ever going to realize.
Walky has made an extremely valid point about how the words ‘I love you’ are used in popular media, but the only way he could have made the point at a worse time than this is if he’d proposed to Dorothy and then said this in his wedding vows.
He should’ve just said “Cheese is available“.
Pure 1000% Walky — both deep and shallow at the same time.
It’s wisdom superposition. How will Dorothy perceive it now that its been witnessed?
“Sometimes your shallowness is so profound it’s almost like depth.” –Jane Lane
Look, Walky, I agree with you, but saying this NOW is probably going to make Dorothy think that you don’t actually love her back and that you’re just saying it to avoid falling into a contrived trope. Good job.
Hail to Walky, our Savior and Slayer of Love! Also ‘third act climax’ sounds like a super long porn.
Walky you are a hero of the people.
He… he gets me.
I’m less concerned with Walky cracking a joke after saying I love you than I am with Dorothy acting like a jealous nut (with senior violent judgmental nut Joyce guest starring) then dropping I love you on him.
She didn’t want a serious relationship, he reminded her of that, and now she’s ok with Mike being assaulted for the crime of not wanting them in his room and spouting proclamations of love. That just…yecch.
Of course,this isn’t Rational Clear Decisions of Age is it?
Funnily enough the TV shows I see usually have the dudes say “I love you” and the girl be hesitant.
Oh, Robin from an early season of How I Met Your Mother. You and your complicated insecurities.
See also: The Big Bang Theory.
I hate to break it to you but what people call “love” is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed.
Dorothy’s I love you is heard by Walky knowing that he is just a temporary thing for her. By her choice. He’s just reminding her of the terms of the relationship, terms she dictated.
So, first let me say I do not normally critique or cast aspersions, since I am not a creative (artistic) person, but… panel 3, Walky’s nose. Have they always been that way? It’s unfortunate, because now that I’ve seen the great black one-hole nose, I can’t unsee it, and it may have ruined the comic for me.
They’ve always been that way, and it’s shading, not a hole.
This is Walky’s defense mechanism, (although Dorothy probably wont see it that way) he does love her, but Dorothy keeps mentioning how things are temporary, or short termed.
I am probably alone here, but I see absolutely no problem with anything Walky said. I think he’s probably right, in fact. Regardless of what Dorothy said in panel one, she did want him to be on the spot, and she did want him to say it back: ‘I thought I’d have to extort it out of you’. If he didn’t say it back regardless of how he actually feels, it’d turn into a big thing, because she wants the words regardless of the reality. So for me, he actually gets bonus points for honesty by explaining where he’s coming from and preventing future misunderstanding.
When Dorothy says that love can be a powerful word, she’s saying that she expected it to be powerful for him. Not necessarily for her, though that squishy expression in panel two tells me the feeling is powerful for her even if the word itself might not be. So Walky’s honesty complicates things for Dorothy, but he’s done a good job being loving to her: supporting her, believing in her, helping her with things that are important to her, in addition to the simpler physical affection. If Dorothy gets mad at him for this, I’ll think a little less of her good sense.
You’re not alone at all. He’s not saying he doesn’t actually *feel* those things, or that they don’t matter to him. He prefers his relationship to be down-to-earth than live in a fantasy fiction with an idealized “star-crossed lovers” romance. His feelings are simple and honest, and I think that’s a good thing.
She didn’t *want* to put him on the spot but she was willing to. At least she tried to let him know that he shouldn’t feel obligated to say it if she didn’t want to, but she lets on in panel two that she privately very much cared what his response would be, to the point where she at least considered “extorting it out of him”, if necessary.
While I agree with and understand Walky’s sentiment here, I don’t think his response to Dorothy was sensitive, nor was it very effective at diffusing potential drama. He told her that he only said “I love you too” so they could avoid making it into some sort of Thing, but he doesn’t also clarify that he said it because he did, in fact, love her. I think he likely does, but you can’t really tell from what he said.
He could have said “Well, it’s true, so I don’t see why we have to make a big deal of it” and left it at that; the fact that he goes on a big spiel about it makes it pretty obvious that it *is* something of a big deal to him.
Another reason why I think this is a big deal to Walky is because of Walky’s expressions. They seem so painful. I remember there was a similar expression several strips ago when Dorothy tells him she wants him to feel able to be honest with her and Walky reminds her she’s eventually leaving him for Yale. So I think this is about that, again. I think this will be an Ongoing Thing.
Walky is Walky. If he was very articulate, sensitive to feelings and aware of when to get super serious, we’d be dealing with a different character. I’m hoping Dorothy reads it as that herself since it would imply that they’ve gotten to understand eachother’s way of thinking through this. As I said below though, I’m sort of expecting her to get nervous about whether it counts and some drama to happen.
That said, Walky’s painful expression comes out not when he says “I love you” but when Dorothy tells him that she expected to have to extort it out of him; At that stage it becomes a ‘big deal’ and Walky isn’t good at that. So he deflects it and rambles to be like “See, I didn’t want this to be a big thing”. Over all, I think Walky is fine with admitting that he cares for her and even loves her but not with Sentimentalist stuff that might come along with it.
Over all, we can only watch how this plays out.
Nah, Comments are fairly split on it. I know both myself and my partners in the past have treated this sort of thing with a degree of levity and joking around since its a touchy and sentimental subject and some people deal with that best with humour (myself included). Usually, it’s something that you come to expect as a character tick in the person and if you’ve come to a stage where you feel you love them, you usually recognize it and maybe enjoy it; I’m willing to suspect Dorothy will be cool about it on that point. Though, she might also get a bit neurotic once she starts to think about it, but I don’t expect anger. I’ve been wrong before though.
Also, in her defence, I read “I thought I’d have extort it out of you” as “I thought you’d be so awkward about expressing love (since Walky does have a view of “bleck, feelings) that I’d have to coax you into admitting it”. So I mean, more a matter of making him feel comfortable with the term and dealing with his inability to express it until then than holding him over a boiling cauldron and shouting “TELL ME YOU LOVE ME”.
that was Surprisingly deep for Walky, granted its based on his TV ideology, noting the fact that the word love is only as powerful as we make it. Thats why im always just in lesbian with people, that and the fact that im a lesbian soul in a man’s body
Well-played, Willis. I still don’t know if my ‘Oh shi-!’ from last strip is good or bad….
Also, I’m not sure I believe you, alt-text.
He’s right though. Words are just words, it’s the feelings themselves that are poweful. Love is powerful, the word isn’t. But today we have a tendency to imbue words with powers just by being a word, even if they are just a jumble of letters after each other. We have never, as a society, been so preoccupied with words as we are today, words are used to empower, to belittle, to make a point completely apart from their ACTUAL meaning. Heck, we even DEBATE over which words to use. And it is all very, very silly. It seems to me we create a lot of drama just because we can, because we see people in stories and in stories there is always drama so we try to recreate that drama subconciously even if there is no *actual* drama, *actual* feelings involved. And since stories are made up of words, the words themselves become elated and eventually loose their meaning (namely, conveing thoughts, ideas and emotions). So, yeah, there should be NO hesitation over saying “I love you”. He loves her right now, but as with all emotions they fluctuate, maybe in 2 seconds he won’t, and in 4 seconds he will, that doesn’t mean that it is a lie nor that it implies commitment, neither should it.
Very well said. I agree.
Good on you, Walkie. You and Dorothy are free to define your relationship however you want.
That moment in your life where you realize you should’ve acted like Walky and not yourself. When walky is better man you, then you have a big problem. :/
So… when did we decide we hated Dorothy? Was there some sort of meeting I wasn’t invited to?
For some people it started when she broke with Danny, by completely ignoring her actual reasons and instead using one coming from those people’s collective ass (just like Danny himself did. Basically, too many readers *are* Danny).
It just went downhill from there; you can read the comments of every comic where Dorothy does anything at all and see people talking about some horrible character also named Dorothy only they can see.
By the way, the moment she realized her love was when she saw how much notDanny Walky is.
Wow, I wasn’t aware Dorothy was hated.
I need to read the comment section more thoroughly.
She’s generally not, but there are a small handful of individuals that hate her at a frightening pitch that suggests perhaps other factors are in play.
Dave,
I really don’t understand the Dorothy -hate myself. She’s almost
always kind, compassionate, thoughtful, disciplined, and the
very model of sincere integrity . She’s tolerant of differences,
makes friends easily and sees past superficial differences. She
is the character I would most like to be friends with…
But she is not-perfect. Which is a fabulous thing for narrative
purposes, or she would be seem like that Name Word-of-God
has banned. She is also overly-controlled, cerebral, ambitious,
and acts with extreme pre-meditation. I generally find you
write her to be non-pretentious. Yet that characteristic is in
tension to her other personality traits ( like discipline, and
pre-meditation ) .
Your writing is enjoyable for how you let these internal conflicts
play out In all your characters.
( I am still hoping for a more flesh-out version of Mary. Given
time I think you may write her as a villain we love to hate . I
dont need you to make her decent. She could be a wonderful
study of the “banality-of-evil” )
One of the Defining feautures of Dorothy is her Stellar-high
emotional intelligence. We see this in action in the last few
days. Its also why her goal of being President isnt meritless.
As someone whos met with and chatted with the Clintons; and
witnessed separately their command of a room, and/ or
personal space , I find your writing of Dorothy quite realistic
and enjoyable. ( If anything, Hillarys extreme
non-pretentiousness —I witnessed — might be a barrier
she had to cross in her Poltical Career. )
That is why I am surprised to see , what I believed were
my thoughtful comments about Dorothys relationship to
walky removed , and here, possbily Stigmatized, as
someone who ‘hates Dorothy’ “at a frightening pitch” .
( Definitley, NOT! )
That surprises me for multiple reasons, not least of
which I dont remember the fever-pitch outright-
hatred of other pro-social characters censored. I waited
a year before first commenting , ( and despite this
ridiculous book-length comment ) could easily feel
my participation is unwanted. If I crossed a red-line
I would rather know about it, then feel afraid to interact here.
Given her thoughfulness, integrity, and high-emotional
intelligence, I do think her inept handling of breaking
up with Danny, is worthy of criticism. ( You titled this
“Dumbing of Age” for reasons. ) Granted this was
written for comedic value; and for all we know she
dumped him all summer long , and he never understood.
But the flipside is thats its practically the only thing she
has ever done, truly worthy of criticism. Other than
that, she is rather a wonderful human being. If you
wish to ban criticism of how she handled Danny,
( or Walky ) it is your comic and your prerogative.
But unless you write more flaws into her, its nearly the
equivalent of placing Dorothy above criticism — which
is also your prerogative.
I did say I found her to be emotionally manipulative.
Its possible in the context of the insane mysognistic
gamer-gate bullshit * ( you interact with on twitter )
my comment might appear to be loaded. It wasnt.
Potential emotional manipulation , even accidentally,
and unconscious, is the flip side of having a high
emotional intelligence . Its actually a credit to you,
that you are writing realistic characters with realist
flaws, appropriate to their virtues. This isnt something
I made up:
Emotional intelligence and moral agency: Some worries and a suggestion
http://philpapers.org/rec/RIEEIA-2
*The ethics of managing affective and emotional states to improve informed consent: Autonomy, comprehension, and voluntariness*
http://philpapers.org/rec/BRATEO-8
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/moral-universe/2013/11/07/using-empathy-to-use-people-emotional-intelligence-and-manipulation/
Thats the thing. Humans arent born with Good and bait traits.
Most of us simply have neutral personality characteristics
that have virtues and flaws, depending on context, usage
and behavior.
Its also possible you dont intend to write her that way.
But you can see this is a reasonable interpretation ( not loaded with bias or animus ) based solely on her strengths and virtues.
Dorothy isnt perfect, and to me that makes her more likable and relatable. Joyce seems to agree with me. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/attitude/
Adam
* i am loathe to even use the term “gamergate” on social media;
lest its Jnr High-school level of stupid, be reflected back to me,
like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG__upqGgRY .
YMMV
Sorry Willis ( and everyone )
The spacing on this came out so bad I want to poke out my eyes. My fault for overcorrecting text , which didnt properly wrap.
I have searched the entire spam and deleted folders and cannot find a single post of yours having been removed.
Some people have decided that Dorothy is an evil woman devoid of real emotions who will fuck over everyone and anyone in pursuit of her goals. Even though they get proven wrong again and again they keep right at it.
The whole busting into Walky’s room and letting Joyce hobble Mike was something where I saw people commenting that it wouldn’t bode well. In their defence, it probably wasn’t the most soberminded thing to do.
Another element which Timemonkey brings up is that she started this relationship as a casual one with Walky that she is planning on dropping in a couple of months so she can go to Yale. In that context, dropping an “I love you” on the other person is pretty unfair to them (Which Walky himself brought up). Though, these people aren’t seeing that Dorothy would probably be pretty conflicted about actually going to Yale at this point and in a lot of stories, this sort of thing would climax in her turning down an acceptance letter to choose to be with her friends. That said, I’d applaud Willis for writing her chasing her dreams but learning to have a bit more perspective while doing so.
I sort of suspect though that what will actually happen is that she gets a rejection letter and shit goes crazy but the people who hate her will keep believing she’d have ditched them in a second given the chance.
A) Dorothy is not Joyce’s keeper and in no way LET her kick a dude.
B) Dorothy expressed disapproval of the kick, for the record.
C) And most importantly, why are all of Dorothy’s “flaws” centered around hurting or upsetting poor, defenseless dudes, who apparently cannot take care of themselves? Especially when she is the most considerate, respectful, and aware person, in the student cast. Towards everyone, even those who do not deserve it.
I don’t hate Dorothy at all, I quite like her. I just think that for someone who is generally extremely clear-headed and sensible, honest and forthright, caring and kind in her dealings with people, she has a very difficult time being all those awesome things in romantic relationships.
She should have broken up with Danny months before she actually did, and admitted as much to him, for one thing. How their relationship actually worked when they were both in it, we don’t know, because we only saw the end.
And now she’s kind of whiplashing Walky back and forth, swinging between casual-mode (the established mode of this relationship right from the start) ‘cartoons and cuddle time, no more, because I’m leaving soon’ to varying degrees of serious ranging from ‘We should be able to tell each other everything because we are that kind of together’ to ‘I love you and I plan to extort it out of you if you don’t say it back’.
It’s an understandable hole in her general awesomeness, but it can be a frustrating one in a webcomic centered generally around relationships between people.
She has said she should have broken up with him earlier, for his own sake.
She also could have broken up with him later, giving him more time. That she is spending the remaining months that they could be together with someone else (whose heart she may or may not plan on breaking) could be construed as insulting or selfish.
Fortunately Danny is more mature about these things than people give him credit for. (He’d have to be, being friends with Joe, who treats other people’s feelings like toys.) No suicide attempts, no drunken phone calls, no petty vandalism, not even bad poetry (as far as we know). He just accepted it and moved on suspiciously quickly.
Her actual reasons are never explicitly given, short of: It was ultimately inevitable anyway, so why wait. (Which is not really a reason.)
She said she loved Danny, but didn’t expect him to love her back unconditionally (apparently every boy before him was sick of her), which is naturally why she had to break up with him. (Walky doesn’t disappoint in that respect, so naturally she is disappointed.)
She said she was worried that he sacrificed his own life for her, which he absoultely was prepared to, if she wanted it, but made explicit that he hadn’t sacrificed anything so far, nor saw the need. Some people have read that as him not believing in her. Some people have read that as him being shallow. Some people have read that as him being sexist. Some people are looking for other reasons why Dorothy had to break up with him, and blame him for everything from indigestion to the bubonic plague. In short, people made up all kinds of reasons why she broke up with him.
And some people blame Dorothy.
<>hyperbole class=”unfounded”>Women like her are the reason the suicide rate among men is far higher than among women.</hyperbole>
(But seriously, isn’t it better to have loved and lost that to have
just lostnever loved at all?)“made explicit that he hadn’t sacrificed anything so far”: I don’t know about you, but I read Danny being in total denial as the punchline there.
That said, I think the break-up was for the best and both of them are pretty decent over all. Both have some growing up to do certainly (Danny in particular) but as you said, neither are remotely as bad as anti-fans make them out to be.
Christ.
Actually, Walky has a point. Thank you man. Being blindfolded by words, and only words, it´s a stupid thing to do.
I think that’s pretty reasonable. If we’re throwing “I love you”‘s around a few weeks into knowing eachother, within the context of an agreed temporary relationship, then it’s pretty safe to say we’re not talking about one of the big time commitment moving the relationship into new territory sorts of love.
He makes her heart go pitter patter. The feeling is mutual. No need to make it anything more than it is. They can both acknowledge and express their love without this devolving into Shakespearean hijinks.
Joyce looks absolutely heartbroken.
Wow, got a little whiplash from that one. Saying it back (assuming he really feels that way) is a great, avoid-the-unnecessary-dramatic-conflict-move. Actually a little surprising in the maturity coming form David “girls are gross” Walkerton. Then immediately implying that a) you are just saying it to avoid the drama of NOT saying it, or b) you may have meant it but you think its meaningless? Not so smart but more I’d expect from Walky
He does love her, he just doesn’t want to be caught up in the endless drama of idiotically having a hard time saying it, is what I got from this.
And he’s right, in a way. Why should it be difficult if that’s how you honestly feel?
This is basically how I explained my relationship with the word “love” to my girlfriend at the time…
it didn’t go over so well
Dorothy freckles
Ruth freckles
Girl Genius and El Goonish Shive gravatars
Things to be glad of ^^
Strangely, with my couple, it’s the other way around…
Congrats Walkie. You’ve shown Dorothy you wear the pants in this relationship by telling her that love is meaningless.
Anyone can say “I love you”. It’s the people that say “I lesbians you” that really mean it from the heart.
I don’t know how to feel about this.
I think people are being uncharitable to Walky here. I don’t think he’s saying the words without meaning them; I think he’s recognizing that love can be real without being fairytale-style eternal true love. He understands that Dorothy can sincerely love him and still eventually move on to Yale and the White House, and he understands that he can sincerely love her and still not get butthurt about their relationship having a time limit.
He’s just also really bad at expressing that and probably doesn’t fully understand his own wisdom on this point. He is, after all, Walky.
Walky may have a point, but I still don’t see this ending well.
Joyce has switched places with the Joyce from It’s Walky! for a split second–just long enough to see him say he loves someone else.
Eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww “love”. Bleh. Yuck.
Walky gives her exactly what she wants and then takes away its value.
Dorothy has a decision to make. It’s either just for funzies or it’s completely serious. Walky isn’t letting her have it both ways. Nor should he. Not if he wants more. If she wants more, she has to take the emotional risk of saying so.
It would be fine to just give her what she wants if he wants to be a doormat and be Dannied when the time comes, or if he’s emotionally dishonest and just wants to keep her happy so the sex’n’stuff keeps coming. But the only one who can change the ground rules is her. Walky’s answer isn’t going to satisfy her but if she’s satisfied then she has no motive to change anything.
The past tense of “When somebody Loved Me” is intentionally ominous. When we started out with the Sal and Marcie flashback we assumed it was about Sal. When we hit the development with Billie and Ruth, we assumed it would relate to their story. Now with Dorothy and Walky’s relationship evolving we have a tendancy to asume it relates to them. I’m going to go way out on a limb here and say I think the title probably relates to Ethan and his prior relationship with Amber.
DAMNIT DAVE
I’m far more worried about the tyranny of the word “honeymoon”