Batman is a savior who came back from the dead, helps the downtrodden, inspires disciples, and you request his aid by directing a message upwards to the heavens. Sounds apt to me.
‘Are’ or ‘were’? Jesus may not have been an orphan, but there’s no way Joseph and Mary are still alive. And if we’re counting God, there are also arguments in that direction.
Darnit, the end of the URL isn’t visible. It’s about the Catholic myth that Mary was taken bodily into heaven… and thus never died… so presumably is still alive!
I think “Jesus’s parents are in Heaven” is close enough, though. They may not be “dead”, but they are in heaven and probably aren’t going to return to earth any time soon.
Hey Mongoose, I’ve been meaning to ask you this for a while but your icon is awesome! Is the character from anything I might know of or is it an original work in and of itself?
In other words, no.
Either he can create a boulder he cannot lift, or he cannot create such a boulder. Either way, there is something he cannot do. Omnipotence thus leads to a logical contradiction, which implies it cannot exist.
The best argument for that is that omnipotence means that you can do anything that is logically possible. It is logically impossible to create a rock so large, thus it is not something an omnipotent being can do but, said being is still omnipotent. An easier analogy would be that an omnipotent being could not create a married bachelor due to them being logically exclusive.
Man you guys are lucky you can look like cool cartoon characters and stuff, I just look like a bad stereotyped caveman, I guess a one armed wolverine technically but still he’s canadian and not the cool bisexual mean red head kind of canadian
Cool bisexual mean red head kind of Canadian? I don’t get the reference. Are you saying you’re a cool, bisexual, mean, red-headed Canadian with one arm who looks like a red-headed Wolverine?
I just look like a generic white man with brown hair. I have a beard so people can tell me apart from everyone else, and somewhat of a unibrow, and a zit right now, so that all helps. As a generic white man, I’m not much different from Joe, Ethan, and Danny.
I look a little like Amber, glasses, brunette, brown eyes. But thinner and flatter. Not that much in the way of curves. More like…Dina in that way, just not as short.
I usually love this comments section, especially thanks to the regulars, but also due to Willis being such a chill dude. I see nothing here that would alter that. 😉
It might be, though. Sexual attraction and identity don’t always get along so great. Ethan might be into a girl with a penis (although so far all precedent except for Danny would indicate that big, bulky, hairy dudes are more Ethan’s speed).
Ethan’s gay, and Joyce is still a girl. Regardless of what organs she might have, it would still most likely not work out. So, even on the off chance that it might seem like “good news” for Ethan initially, his enthusiasm would probably wear off once he realized that Joyce *isn’t a guy*. That’s the detail that kind of throws a wrench into that train of thought, not to mention what makes the kinds of jokes that people make about the subject incredibly stupid.. not to mention insensitive. :/
-shrugs- Anyway, I’m not on any sort of crusade, I just wanted to point out why in reality (well, fictional reality.. and normal reality in similar situations) it would probably end up being more of a moot point than any sort of “good news”. 😛
Also, you know, there’s the little detail that even if Joyce did have a penis, she probably wouldn’t like it being fetishized, so thinking of it as “good news” is sort of.. well not sort of, it is majorly disrespectful. So again, moot point and all that.
Yes I realize this is all based on a hypothetical situation, and yes I realize it was a joke, but that doesn’t make it any less disrespectful.
if that is the case then I must raise my gauntlet in holy retribution, for there can be only one pasta noodle god and that is his noodly majesty himself the Flying Spaghetti monstar.
And so it begins. No religion is safe from the corruption of heretics, and it seems that Pastafarianism is no exception (despite it only being a parody).
Stay the course, Joyce! Just remember that you may be giving up a LOT of happiness now, but one day you’ll possibly get to be near someone who hates everyone you love because they chose to be happy instead of toeing the line in the name of some arbitrary and self-contradictory value system!
So does Bilie. And Ruth. And Mike, probably. Also Sal. And Amber. And you could make the case for Walky, Dorothy, Danny, and Roz. So…yeah. Dammit Willis.
The more crisis she has the more progress she makes! the more progress she makes the wiser she becomes. She’s already come so far.
I’m really waiting for the point where she realises trying to de-gay Ethan is wrong. She hasn’t really had to process how much that could hurt him since they’re not being physically intimate and he’s been playing along.
I don’t agree with Joyce’s intentions for Ethan but I do like the relationship they’ve formed In some ways it’s good for the both of them. It’s nice to see Ethan just being there for her. She definitely needs that from someone.
Until I found out what MRA stood for, my brain tried to define it by the closest match it could find: MRE (Meal Ready to Eat, the name for military rations).
…they’re about the same level of tastelessness, really!
She’s either going to grow up a bit or backslide horribly. Being the closest Willis has to a self-insert, and seeing as he’s turned out to be a hoopy frood, I’m hoping for the best. *crosses fingers*
Joyce has just assumed Billie’s in love with a guy. Just like most people would have even without the excuse of childhood brainwashing. Unless you consider or society’s obsession with compulsory heterosexuality to be brainwashing…which kind of?
I really fail to see what’s so annoying about people being considerate enough to just not assume everyone is hetero by default. If anything those who do make the world a much more welcoming place.
I’m not gonna lie. I think we as humans jump to assumptions. I don’t think that’s…bad. If you heard me speak in your mind you might picture me being a young white child rather than a 20 year old black guy. I’m not gonna fault you for that. I’m just gonna fault you if your opinion of me changes because of that.
I enjoyed that Joyce assumed that Billie (and everyone else) is in a hetero relationship. Makes perfect sense for her upbringing/experience thus far, and moreover, preserves the awesome faces that she’s bound to make when she finds out.
What was said could have easily been platonic affection, it sailed right by my head when I first read it. I didn’t understand why so many people jumped to that conclusion but then Willis confirmed it.
Not to out myself as a degenerate homophobe, but I probably would have assumed it was a dude too. I wouldn’t be SHOCKED to find out it’s a girl but I’d probably assume it’s a dude.
It’s nicest to refrain from assuming that people are straight, but statistically, most people are. So, in practice, the assumption that a girl is probably in love with a boy is still pretty reasonable.
(It’s unreasonable to be a jerk about everyone else, such as by believing that LGBTQ+ folks are abnormal/wrong, which nobody is doing on here.)
It’s context. IF you were placing a bet, you’d bet cis-hetero if you had no other info, that’s statistics plus “smart money plays the odds”. Unfortunately, people still automatically make that “bet” psycho-sociologically, even when it’s completely irrelevant in context, thereby perpetuating the various normativities of our society AND thereby Othering people. In contexts where these things don’t matter, block them out of your mind. In contexts in which they do matter, don’t assume or project bell curves onto individuals. IDIC
Honestly, I don’t even have an issue with being “other”ed. I always think being something different from the norm makes me Unique and therefore better. The only reason I DON’T like that is if people treat me lesser for it. It’s why a bunch of my characters are multi-racial ladies. I’m just so BORED of Straight white dudes. They’re so booooooooooooring to me now.
It’s something we bicycle people have become used to. You would not believe the number of times that I was assumed to be non-hetero because I was wearing spandex at the time. What made it funny was I was riding to see my girlfriend in another town at the time and wearing spandex because riding a bicycle 60 miles each way in TX during the summer that’s the only way to do it unless you like skin falling off your thighs in sheets leaving gaping open sores.
But oddly ( and thankfully ) Ethan isnt insulted that Joyce is implying their relationship isnt good enough.
But It also shows he needs to be careful not to convince her of that either.
She craves hearing that their relationship is equal and that he loves her.
If he does that this will go south and reinforce whats wrong with this, and keep him deeper closeted.
If hes just loving and supportive and allows a safe emotional intimacy, Joyce can return that later and support him coming out.
I understood it as a reference to side-hug too. In a lot of fundamentalist families you cannot hug someone not in your family face-to-face. You both stand facing the same way and put one arm around the other’s back so that only your arms and sides touch.
Some families/individuals are strict enough about this that you cannot regular-hug anyone except your spouse. It makes me sad that some people find it somehow wrong and sinful to hug your own child face-to-face.
Wow, I never thought I could hear something that would make me dislike fundamentalist Christians even more than I already do. That is just horrific! What kind of person could put up with that? And what kind of horrible God would forbid you from hugging your own children?
No, Billie outright told Joyce she believed in God (and was surprised to hear that not everyone did), back when Joyce asked if the reason Billie wouldn’t go to Church on Sunday was because she was an atheist.
But as for his personal philosophy… yeah probably.
It’s confusing because a lot of people identify with religious groups on a cultural level, without it really matching up with what they believe religiously.
Like when I say I’m Catholic and I really just mean I grew up in a Catholic family and live my life in constant reaction to preemptive Catholic guilt. If we’re talking about religious ideology, I definitely consider myself agnostic.
And, well, I guess you could say that’s technically a contradiction in terms, but people describe themselves like this all the time.
One can be both Christian and agnostic at the same time, the terms aren’t mutually exclusive.
“Agnostic” just means that you either don’t know for sure that a god or gods exist and/or that you believe that we can’t know if gods exist. One can believe that the Christian God exists, without knowing for sure.
“I’m goin’ global
‘Cause you don’t know me
I’m buyin’ babies like Angelina Jolie
So quit that huggin’
And slow down, mama
And hit my fist like President Obama”
P.S. I went to an Orthodox Jewish middle school, and I was explicitly taught that touching boys on the hand would be deeply inconsiderate as it could distract said boys from their studies.
Yep… that about sums up the “growing up in a religious household” experience, making you think that just being human is evil. -sigh- I feel for Joyce, I really do. :/
As a person of faith myself I long ago worked out that God never wants a person to stop being human. Its about finding your own way of being happy while having the inner peace of your faith.
I’m also certain that the Lord doesn’t look down on you for dressing like a Goth, having tattoos, or loving someone outside marriage…if He does than I guess I’m in big trouble (he he).
Joyce, my advice as one person of faith to another (even if you are a fictional character), find your own groove like Cusco.
Keep to your faith, but know that God doesn’t want you to be unhappy either. He wants you to have joy in your life and to love Him and to love your friends. Letting lose one in awhile is not backsliding. You don’t have to walk on water, someone else already did that for you. Believe me whatever path you take will serve His plan regardless.
I’m not religious myself, but it’s clear to me that Joyce sincerely believes
in God, but can’t reconcile that with her emotional and physical needs. So
I just hope she can realize that a person can believe and still be fully human,
that it doesn’t have to be a conflict between the two at all, that they can
even be in harmony with each other.
Poor Joyce…she’s doing the A-frame hug…let not the naughty bits potentially come into proximity with other potentially naughty bits! It’s usually guys who do the A-frame….
I know it has been shown before that Joyce and Walky do consider each other friends, even if it’s with some major head-butting, but it’s still sweet to see her acknowledge it.
Joyce has a lot of growing to do, but it’s good that she can recognized a lot of the complicated emotions she’s going through here. She’s got a major edge on a lot of people in their late teens. (I don’t think she’s 20 yet)
When has it ever been shown they consider each other friends? He thinks she’s crazy and she thinks he’s an ass. The only reason they spend time together is because of class, Dorothy or because Joyce is afraid to be alone in public.
If nothing else, Joyce is happy for Dorothy, which implies that even if she doesn’t see eye-to-eye with him she’s not still in “he’s not good enough for her” mode.
I don’t know if they’re “friends,” as such, but between his relationship with Dorothy and his reaction to her assault (i.e. he believed it happened and didn’t attack her over it), he’s pretty firmly placed in the “safe male” category.
I think Billie IS Christian. I’ve know a lot of queer people who are Christian. I know it might sound weird, but…*shrugs* A lot of people fight over if the bible really says gay people are bad.
Joyce wants, I think, to be able to love her friends and feel happy that they’re happy without thinking her friends are going to hell and the things that make them happy are evil. And she wants to be able to be made happy by the same things they are.
That’s not something that’s gonna be obtainable for her for a while.
Jeez, is Joyce starting to become a parody? Sometimes fiction (and especially graphic fiction in a realistic world) has to try extra hard to be credible.
Why do you think she’s parody? I’m ten years older than her, male, and secular, and I very often have the exact same feelings she expresses in this comic. Having friends who are different from you in one basic way is hard.
I always enjoy how whenever I write a comic that is 100% authentic to myself in a painfully honest and vulnerably introspective way, some guy comes along and shits all over it.
I guess this is outside your experience? Because it rings true to me, and I’m not one of the people who have gone through it themselves, like the author.
You should pay attention to his writing, and learn a bit more about the sorts of things other people go through, before assuming you already know all about what is and isn’t credible.
uh -oh…
Joyce could easily say she loves Ethan next.
Problems….
If he says it back, it could strengthen this relationship for the worse, keep him in the closet, and strengthen Joyce’s repressions
If he doesnt say it, it could be devastating to her and confirm that she doesnt belong.
She didnt hear Walky’s “save” , or this wouldnt be happening.
Willis, please dont do that!
( OH , you are going to do that arent you ? ( sigh )
of course you are! Ok , I can handle it… everybody brace yourselves for a “Damn you , Willis moment .
These characters were so close to developing a healthy , loving friendship.
Ethans self-aware enough to try and tell Joyce he loves her like a friend, too, but not romantically .
But when a woman is crying and you are hugging her — its just not the best time to qualify an ” i love you ” .
There is really no good time after that, either :/ .
Something I’ve noticed about that: the last several times Joyce has been seen trying to call Becky, she didn’t answer. If I remember correctly, the last time Joyce actually talked to Becky was at the church when she was bragging about holding Ethan’s hand. Eventually, she’ll manage to contact Becky and I’m guessing it won’t go well. I see two possibilities: 1) Becky is the one who’s changed (she’s given up the fundametalism thing and doesn’t want to talk to Joyce anymore), though this one is less likely than 2) Becky thinks Joyce has changed and doesn’t want to talk to her anymore out of fear that Joyce will be a bad influence on her. If it’s the latter, Joyce probably won’t react well to the shunning…
Or, maybe, just maybe, Becky and Joyce will be able to retain their friendship and accept the changes in the other.
From a narrative standpoint Becky doesn’t need to be the anchor to Joyce’s old life – her family is that already. Maybe Becky changes as well in a way similar to Joyce – to highlight how life changes people – or in a different way to serve as a “road not taken” parallel. Or maybe she will be just as she was when we last saw her a few weeks ago, because everything does not have to follow the narrative standpoint.
A much more crucial question than whether or not Becky will accept the change in Joyce is if Joyce herself is going to accept it. My guess is that Becky – if she is anything like Joyce at all – will do her best to help Joyce when the call finally goes through. How that help expresses itself will be very different depending on if Joyce ask “please help me return to my christian values” or “please help me accept myself as I am.”
As much as I’m sad for the position Joyce is in with her relationship to Ethan… I’m so glad that she’s got someone she feels she can open up this much to. That’s not an easy thing to confront in yourself. :c
Ouch. The irony of this page and Billie is physically painful.
I’d say her brain might explode from it if/when she finds out the truth, but then again she is currently in bed with a gay guy while hugging her face to his chest.
My heart bleeds for Joyce. She’s too young for this angst. She needs to be out having fun and enjoying her youth. She needs to cut that Fundie albatross loose that her parents have hung around her neck and live a little. Having a platonic relationship with a Gay man is a start, I guess. At least she has someone to talk to that won’t judge her or think she’s weird.
Ethan is using Joyce as a beard. He may really like her, but no doubt about it, he is using her.
Joyce knows he is gay and she is in this situation for the same reason he is, she is hiding. She has the fundie thing going (and that is getting old) and she has the near rape that scared the Hell out of her.
She is 18 and not worldly, but she is not ‘sweet’ and she is not stupid. She is bouncy, outgoing, annoying, overbearing, but not sweet.
She knows that her religion as taught by her parents is making her miserable. She used her own judgement and told her parents NO, when they said she couldn’t see Dorothy because Dorothy was an atheist or ungodly or whatever. So Joyce CAN use her own judement when pushed far enough.
She knows she will never get anywhere in her relationship with Ethan, she used ‘degaying’ him as an excuse, she is too smart to believe that. He makes a good shield. A platonic relationship is what she has, but not what she wants or needs. she has Sarah and Dorothy to talk to and although she exasperates Sarah, Sarah cares about her.
One of the other of them will break, and whichever one it is, Joyce is going to hurt worse.
Don’t forget that the degaying and her fundamental attitudes aren’t the only thing that put her into this relationship with Ethan. The one time she went to a college party, she got attacked, which doesn’t exactly help foster the idea that doing something non fundamental is a good thing. She feels *safe* with Ethan because he doesn’t want to have sex with her, won’t attack her because she feels uncomfortable about sex. So now she’s starting to realize that safe does NOT = happy, but it’s so hard to break that self-protective instinct, even when it’s making you unhappy.
I don’t know about that actually; gayness as a choice is a thing with a lot of right wing Christians. Joyce seems to have accepted all of their doctine at face value (creationism, atheists as immoral, etc.) and is only questioning it now.
That isn’t to say she isn’t “too smart to believe that”, just that until confronted by proof (and raised in an echo chamber for certain beliefs), one can believe a lot of things regardless of intelligence.
You know, panel 2 isn’t just for the religiously stunted of us. Imagine being a single middle aged man in the middle of all of your friends being either happily married or in a long term relationship. Love/hate for sure.
This divorced middle-aged man felt like that for years. It’s only recently that I finally got comfortable enough with my life to where I’m not secretly envious of my friends in good relationships.
I don’t know where we are. I haven’t been here either. And at some point, we’re going to have to explain this. Wouldn’t it be better if we had a story? Wouldn’t it be better if we told other people that in this moment, we understood something about people? Or would pretending to be scared be better? I don’t know. You’re looking at me to know, and all I know is this. I wish we could share this moment, but you’re hoping I can be your guide, and honestly, I am *at least* as terrified as you are. If I don’t have to speak for a lost life, neither of us have lost it.”
And she is, I just forgot it. Of course, I grew up Presbyterian and my wife grew up a fundamentalist so SHE’S stunned at all the crazy stuff I believe like not hating on the gays or believing in Young Earth Creationalism.
Uh, yeah, plenty of gay people believe in a religion. Helps that anti-gay sentiment isn’t nearly as strong in non-abrahamic religions, but more to the point, even within them, they tend to gravitate towards denominations that, you know, don’t hate them.
Which isn’t to say there aren’t catholic gay people and the like, but.
I don’t think the hetronormative narrative recognizes no sexual attraction as an option when non-sibling boys and a girls engages in face-to-face-embracing.
A man standing behind a two way mirror smiles and scribbles some observation notes onto his clipboard. The Head scientist enters the room and seats himself in a large rotating armchair.
HS: What have you to report?
Man: *clears throat* she seems to be responding well to the deprogramming sir. She has become self aware and is beginning to question her logic. *Checks notes* by my calculations, she has a definite chance of becoming well adjusted if…..
HS: If?
Man: if we increase the intensity of our deprogramming. The only issue is she may suffer more and there is a chance of mental destabilization.
HS: hmm….. do it.
The head scientist smiles.
HS: Once we remove those silly notions from her head, *leans forward in his chair and interlocks his fingers* then the real work begins….
I can tell this is a sad moment but I am laughing too hard at her comments about Billie.
BILLIE IS SUCH A CHRISTIAN *commits a homosexuality* SHE’S GONNA BE HAPPILY MARRIED BEFORE I EVER DO *only as long as this story takes place past October 2014*
It’s easy to forget just how sheltered Joyce was. She couldn’t ride her bike around the block until she was 16. No sisters (that she knew of). Yes, that’s what the homeschooled fundy lifestyle is like. Check out the many websites that deal with the fallout. The kids consider it a form of child abuse when they finally escape.
No wonder she is so desperate for female friends. The last six weeks (years) have brought more change to her life than the previous 18 years. Give her time (like until 2020).
I know what she is going through…been there myself. The level of guilt you feel for doing what is simply part of being human is horrible. You feel like you are such a horrible sinner for the simplest things.
Interesting watching this happen, but I feel so bad for Joyce.
It’s like watching a fatal car wreck in ultra-slow motion. You know it’s going to end badly, but you can’t stop watching to see what caused it. I used to do wreck re-construction so I watched a lot of those videos. The one that made me the most angry was the one where LEO had initially blamed a cyclist for “not yielding” to a truck making a right turn across the bike lane before seeing the video, and then the video showed the truck hitting the cyclist from behind as it made the turn. One the cyclist never got to see the truck’s turn signal, and two the cyclist was in front of the truck and had the right of way so the truck should have yielded. Three the cyclist was in the truck’s right-front blind spot, so the driver didn’t know he was about to run her over. Just bad all the way around… But I don’t do that thing any more so maybe I will be a little more sane soon?
Ugh. So many comments about Ethan’s “glorious man-chest”. I feel like I’m reading Twilight again. (Although it is his chest and not his face, and it is actually kind of relevant instead of every single time Ethan appears in a comic, so it is better that way.)
A strict upbringing of any kind can instill a mindset that’s almost like literal programming. They don’t know how to handle things that are ‘off the script.’ If the kids can find a support network that is willing to help them adapt, they do fine. But it can go very badly as well. They can be over-trusting because they assume that everyone else is working on the same moral code they are.
For a good non-religious example, look at the 1998 movie “Soldier” starring Kurt Russel. The way the soldiers were raised, they didn’t know how to handle a non-military situation.
My fundie sister refuses to read certain romance authors because there is too much sex in the books. When I told her about an adventure story she might like her response was “Is it normal adventure or slutty adventure. Because you read a lot of slutty adventure.” Slutty adventure=Romantic suspense.
I don’t think Joyce will be in any Slipshines or whatever. Because of a pic Willis posted on Deviantart of Joyce in her bra and pants and next to her is the words “I’m so sorry about this.”
Remind me again why she hasn’t at least messed around with herself before? Like seriously, I’m pretty sure there isn’t some rule in the Bible about masturbation.
Onan wasn’t masturbating, he failed to impregnate his brother’s widow by using the withdraw system of birth control after the widow only consented to relations for an heir.
There’s Bible canon, and there’s Bible fanon. Unfortunately the fanon is stronger.
People like Joyce suffer because the way certain Christians read the book, not necessarily what is actually written there.
So “but it’s not in the book” is not a valid point here. “Joyce’s church and Joyce’s parents and Joyce herself believe it’s part of God’s rules (sometimes baselessly)” is more like what actually happens.
But Onan received the divine smackdown for spilling his seed onto the floor, rather than using it to impregnate a woman. Every sperm is sacred and all that.
When a woman masturbates, no reproductive material is wasted. If there is anything in the Bible banning female masturbation, I’m not aware of it.
(Then again, I was raised without religion and have only read bits and pieces of the Bible later on, out of curiosity, so I’m not exactly an authority on Christianity.)
Loading ...
Well, technically you’re embracing him face-to-glorious-man-chest, so you’re all clear.
Face-to-Batman-logo.
That’s like embracing Batman, which is pretty much the same thing as embracing Jesus, so I think she’s in the clear.
Man, that comparison would tick off so many fundies that it’s simultaneously hilarious and deeply disturbing.
Batman is a savior who came back from the dead, helps the downtrodden, inspires disciples, and you request his aid by directing a message upwards to the heavens. Sounds apt to me.
I wasn’t arguing – just laughing/crying at those who would.
Jesus’ parents are dead?!
Nietzsche would say so, anyhow.
Cant argue with that.
‘Are’ or ‘were’? Jesus may not have been an orphan, but there’s no way Joseph and Mary are still alive. And if we’re counting God, there are also arguments in that direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary
Darnit, the end of the URL isn’t visible. It’s about the Catholic myth that Mary was taken bodily into heaven… and thus never died… so presumably is still alive!
I think “Jesus’s parents are in Heaven” is close enough, though. They may not be “dead”, but they are in heaven and probably aren’t going to return to earth any time soon.
Hey Mongoose, I’ve been meaning to ask you this for a while but your icon is awesome! Is the character from anything I might know of or is it an original work in and of itself?
I’m a fundamental Christian and that doesn’t bother me at all. Batman is awesome.
Got the best possible avatar for that comment, that said, I happen to have unbeatable proof that God, if real, is not perfect.
Ooh! This I’d like to hear! 😀
There are lots of variations on that theme. Here’s one: can God create a boulder that is so heavy, even He Himself cannot lift it?
Sure, if he wanted to. The moment he wanted to lift it he probably could though.
In other words, no.
Either he can create a boulder he cannot lift, or he cannot create such a boulder. Either way, there is something he cannot do. Omnipotence thus leads to a logical contradiction, which implies it cannot exist.
The best argument for that is that omnipotence means that you can do anything that is logically possible. It is logically impossible to create a rock so large, thus it is not something an omnipotent being can do but, said being is still omnipotent. An easier analogy would be that an omnipotent being could not create a married bachelor due to them being logically exclusive.
Rodavure.
Thank you.
I dunno, that looks more like a face-to-upper-arm/shoulder embrace to me. Ethan’s pretty much built like a brick house anyway though so it’s all good.
I’m confused. Is Willis a Christian?
Raised as such, Dorothy is in many ways his self-insert when it comes to his upbringing.
man i wish
yeah i wish i looked like joyce when i was her age
instead i wound up like faz
I look like Sierra. Only with smaller boobs and dreadlocks.
So you have been lusting after your opposite-sex clone?
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! ^_^
Except for the Jewishness, the hair, the good looks, the gayness, and the fact that I wear glasses, I’m basically Ethan.
Why hasn’t Willis drawn Ethan in Glasses. Ethan could pull off some glasses.
He put Jacob in glasses, and now Ethan lusts after him even more. Maybe, that counts?
If Mary were fat, had glasses, cut her hair, and was a couple of decades older, she’d look a bit like me.
Man you guys are lucky you can look like cool cartoon characters and stuff, I just look like a bad stereotyped caveman, I guess a one armed wolverine technically but still he’s canadian and not the cool bisexual mean red head kind of canadian
Thinning stereotype caveman with glasses, yo.
*sigh* Well at least my chances of getting cancer don’t seem all that high.
Body model for a comic character, not saying which one.
Beaver from Beaver&Steve?
Cool bisexual mean red head kind of Canadian? I don’t get the reference. Are you saying you’re a cool, bisexual, mean, red-headed Canadian with one arm who looks like a red-headed Wolverine?
I just look like a generic white man with brown hair. I have a beard so people can tell me apart from everyone else, and somewhat of a unibrow, and a zit right now, so that all helps. As a generic white man, I’m not much different from Joe, Ethan, and Danny.
Except that Joe is not generically white.
I look a little like Amber, glasses, brunette, brown eyes. But thinner and flatter. Not that much in the way of curves. More like…Dina in that way, just not as short.
Joyce*
I think you meant to type Joyce.
totally made my comment thinking he was talking about joyce
sigh
Dotty is what Willis wanted to be, Joyce is what he was at that age but with a penis… I think…
Joyce has a penis?!?!?
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Ethan must be told.
Ethan could do with some good news. 😀
I usually love this comments section, especially thanks to the regulars, but also due to Willis being such a chill dude. I see nothing here that would alter that. 😉
Eh, if she still identified as a girl, it wouldn’t really be good news for Ethan. Just sayin’. :/
It might be, though. Sexual attraction and identity don’t always get along so great. Ethan might be into a girl with a penis (although so far all precedent except for Danny would indicate that big, bulky, hairy dudes are more Ethan’s speed).
Well, he was pretty interested in Jocelyn. Granted, he didn’t *know* she’s a girl.
Joyce is futa? That would explain a lot…
@barefoot
Ethan’s gay, and Joyce is still a girl. Regardless of what organs she might have, it would still most likely not work out. So, even on the off chance that it might seem like “good news” for Ethan initially, his enthusiasm would probably wear off once he realized that Joyce *isn’t a guy*. That’s the detail that kind of throws a wrench into that train of thought, not to mention what makes the kinds of jokes that people make about the subject incredibly stupid.. not to mention insensitive. :/
-shrugs- Anyway, I’m not on any sort of crusade, I just wanted to point out why in reality (well, fictional reality.. and normal reality in similar situations) it would probably end up being more of a moot point than any sort of “good news”. 😛
Also, you know, there’s the little detail that even if Joyce did have a penis, she probably wouldn’t like it being fetishized, so thinking of it as “good news” is sort of.. well not sort of, it is majorly disrespectful. So again, moot point and all that.
Yes I realize this is all based on a hypothetical situation, and yes I realize it was a joke, but that doesn’t make it any less disrespectful.
He’s been all over Joycelen.
He was raised fundamentalist. Check the FAQ
The FAQ doesn’t say if he’s a Christian NOW, does it?
Ah, indeed it doesn’t. Other comics and writings suggest his beliefs are very much atheist. Yo, Willis, do you still do Christian stuff?
Whatchu talkin’ bout, Willis?
…Oh god I’m so sorry I couldn’t stop myself.
I’ll just let myself out.
are you the first person to type that?
Only on this page
The Willis is an avowed Cheese-ist. He worships at the altar of Mac & Cheese, and glorifies its orangeness in all its forms.
Ah, that must be it. This is now my head-canon.
How to I join this most awesomely cheesy holy faith? Truly the combination of pasta and cheese is a thing to be glorified and worshipped.
if that is the case then I must raise my gauntlet in holy retribution, for there can be only one pasta noodle god and that is his noodly majesty himself the Flying Spaghetti monstar.
And so it begins. No religion is safe from the corruption of heretics, and it seems that Pastafarianism is no exception (despite it only being a parody).
I… what… coolest thread evar
He used to be an adorable little fundamentalist. Joyce is an autobiography of that time in his life.
Was. Long ago.
Read #8 http://www.dumbingofage.com/about/
Is there someplace where Willis explains his decision that DoA will not reach Sophmore Year? And are Sarah, Ruth, and Daisy the only non-Freshers?
Carla’s a sophomore, and I think he just doesn’t want to give DoA an expiration date.
Is there a prize for the first commenter to use “strawman” correctly?
Congratz! You get a cookie.
I’ve never been able to tell and honestly? I kind of like that.
Stay the course, Joyce! Just remember that you may be giving up a LOT of happiness now, but one day you’ll possibly get to be near someone who hates everyone you love because they chose to be happy instead of toeing the line in the name of some arbitrary and self-contradictory value system!
.
.
.
wait that sounds like a horrible deal
Joyce might just kick God’s ass if he sends Dorothy to Hell.
I got $100 on Joyce beating the big guy’s ass in round 1
God prefers atheists.
Because they don’t anticipate his attack.
Feels…Too much… Heart…Can’t take it…
God…Damnit…Willis…
I’m afraid of What comes next, but Joyce and Ethan desperately need this.
Therapy. Joyce and Ethan desperately need therapy.
So does Bilie. And Ruth. And Mike, probably. Also Sal. And Amber. And you could make the case for Walky, Dorothy, Danny, and Roz. So…yeah. Dammit Willis.
We need to call Captain Planet STAT!
Let our powers combine.
EARTH!!
FIRE!
WIND!
WATER
Heart!
CHEESE!
Concerning your gravatar, Opus,I would be very, VERY frightened if Mike ever received the heart ring in particular…
http://youtu.be/SmypHQ5AUxQ?t=15s
Oh..my..god. A face to face hug! Such scandal!
Face-to-Chest even.
Ethan’s glorious man-chest…
Yeah you gotta watch out for those facehuggers or you might suddenly die giving birth to an alien larva
Wait what
How lewd. That’s even lewder than unprotected hand holding.
Unprotected hand holding! Not in my America! No glove no love.
I cannot be the only one tired of Joyce’s religious existential crisis.
I need more Dina talking about how great cereal is.
The more crisis she has the more progress she makes! the more progress she makes the wiser she becomes. She’s already come so far.
I’m really waiting for the point where she realises trying to de-gay Ethan is wrong. She hasn’t really had to process how much that could hurt him since they’re not being physically intimate and he’s been playing along.
Agreedo.
I don’t agree with Joyce’s intentions for Ethan but I do like the relationship they’ve formed In some ways it’s good for the both of them. It’s nice to see Ethan just being there for her. She definitely needs that from someone.
I’m guessing the homosexual event horizon will be around the time she finds out Billy’s boyfriend is actually a girl.
but… isn’t this comic just an unending anthem of angst driven existentialist teen screaming set in the foregrounds of a raging drama hurricane?
isn’t that the whole point?
Well, I suspect Joyce is tired of her religious existential crisis, so maybe you can bond with her over that and put up with a bit more?
But who can argue with calls for more Dina? Just imagine a feature where she discusses new dinosaur discoveries, it would be the best.
Poor Joyce, ironically she was the only one who went to IU to gain a MRS degree.
I read that as MRA and was VERY confused
Joyce as an MRA? She’s far more likely to be a member of the NRA.
Until I found out what MRA stood for, my brain tried to define it by the closest match it could find: MRE (Meal Ready to Eat, the name for military rations).
…they’re about the same level of tastelessness, really!
That seems a little insulting. MRE’s provide some nutrition, and my ex-serviceman friends have said that one or two aren’t completely disgusting.
Wont worry, you’re on your knees so your genitals arent gonna be touching. No temptation at all XD
…[/sarcasm?]
[Christian Side Hug Joke]
As You know, nothing sinful happens on your knees.
Your ALT-text is invisible… Was that on purpose?
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/41/98/31/4198319d5af8ad706c39d1988b259441.jpg
Have… have they tried headpats?
They’re very therapeutic. (Or so I’m told.)
Many pets I had swear by them.
I tend to nip at hands that get too near my face. Nobody touches the hair.
But they’ve proven demonstrably effective on other people/critters, so…
I don’t like people touching my hair unless we’re very well aquainted.
Unfortunately, Joyce’s parents are head patters so it may reinforce their indoctrination.
Not what Joyce needs.
Our little Joyce MAY be on the verge of growing up a little bit.
She’s either going to grow up a bit or backslide horribly. Being the closest Willis has to a self-insert, and seeing as he’s turned out to be a hoopy frood, I’m hoping for the best. *crosses fingers*
Billie doesn’t have a boyfriend and I think she’s a cultural Christian.
Joyce figured out she’s now in a relationship, and being Joyce, made the assumption that it’s with a dude.
I know that.
Joyce has just assumed Billie’s in love with a guy. Just like most people would have even without the excuse of childhood brainwashing. Unless you consider or society’s obsession with compulsory heterosexuality to be brainwashing…which kind of?
I think I’m bugged by the society’s obsession with disregarding compulsory homosexuality. People are stupid.
I really fail to see what’s so annoying about people being considerate enough to just not assume everyone is hetero by default. If anything those who do make the world a much more welcoming place.
I’m not gonna lie. I think we as humans jump to assumptions. I don’t think that’s…bad. If you heard me speak in your mind you might picture me being a young white child rather than a 20 year old black guy. I’m not gonna fault you for that. I’m just gonna fault you if your opinion of me changes because of that.
Well said. I second the sentiment.
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce.
You’ve got this all wrong.
Billie doesn’t have a boyfriend. She has a girlfriend.
I enjoyed that Joyce assumed that Billie (and everyone else) is in a hetero relationship. Makes perfect sense for her upbringing/experience thus far, and moreover, preserves the awesome faces that she’s bound to make when she finds out.
The last GF revelation seemed to go right past her
What was said could have easily been platonic affection, it sailed right by my head when I first read it. I didn’t understand why so many people jumped to that conclusion but then Willis confirmed it.
To be fair, Billie’s been pretty vocal about her liking of the dudes. Does Joyce even know bisexuality is a thing?
I don’t know if she’d know enough to use that term, but Billie has certainly talked to Joyce about girls sometimes liking girls.
How soon you forget the revelation of Chicken Nuggets Drama Hurricanes, and them being sexually transmitted.
Willis you should make a Book called “Chicken Nuggets Drama Hurricanes”
( or Sexually Transmitted Drama Hurricanes )
I’m far from a naive fundie, and that revelation went right over my head at the time.
Not to out myself as a degenerate homophobe, but I probably would have assumed it was a dude too. I wouldn’t be SHOCKED to find out it’s a girl but I’d probably assume it’s a dude.
I feel like most people would, honestly. Heterosexuality being seen as the “default” sexual orientation and all that.
It’s nicest to refrain from assuming that people are straight, but statistically, most people are. So, in practice, the assumption that a girl is probably in love with a boy is still pretty reasonable.
(It’s unreasonable to be a jerk about everyone else, such as by believing that LGBTQ+ folks are abnormal/wrong, which nobody is doing on here.)
It’s context. IF you were placing a bet, you’d bet cis-hetero if you had no other info, that’s statistics plus “smart money plays the odds”. Unfortunately, people still automatically make that “bet” psycho-sociologically, even when it’s completely irrelevant in context, thereby perpetuating the various normativities of our society AND thereby Othering people. In contexts where these things don’t matter, block them out of your mind. In contexts in which they do matter, don’t assume or project bell curves onto individuals. IDIC
Honestly, I don’t even have an issue with being “other”ed. I always think being something different from the norm makes me Unique and therefore better. The only reason I DON’T like that is if people treat me lesser for it. It’s why a bunch of my characters are multi-racial ladies. I’m just so BORED of Straight white dudes. They’re so booooooooooooring to me now.
Fair ’nuff, Fogel.
“Other-ed”
I learned a new word….I think. :/
It’s something we bicycle people have become used to. You would not believe the number of times that I was assumed to be non-hetero because I was wearing spandex at the time. What made it funny was I was riding to see my girlfriend in another town at the time and wearing spandex because riding a bicycle 60 miles each way in TX during the summer that’s the only way to do it unless you like skin falling off your thighs in sheets leaving gaping open sores.
@Opus:
Wouldn’t you have gotten really sweaty?
See now I had to wonder if “bicycle people” was a euphemism for something.
This is what I expected.
Ethan can fix this — if Joyce lets him in.
GO ETHAN!
But oddly ( and thankfully ) Ethan isnt insulted that Joyce is implying their relationship isnt good enough.
But It also shows he needs to be careful not to convince her of that either.
She craves hearing that their relationship is equal and that he loves her.
If he does that this will go south and reinforce whats wrong with this, and keep him deeper closeted.
If hes just loving and supportive and allows a safe emotional intimacy, Joyce can return that later and support him coming out.
Safe as in no sex right?
it was a really nice touch.
hoo boy i cant wait til she finds out that everyone ain’t as hetero as she thought.
Joyce is a. . . face-hugger??
So Ethan will be experiencing stomach pains in the near future then?
That’s why you get the Space Soup instead of the Space Special.
Check, please!
…not again….
Chest. Pains. Chest burster!
Eek! Call the chest burster busters!
“Hello, my baby!
Hello my honey!
Hello my ragtime gal!
Send me a kiss by wire!
Baby my heart’s on fire!
If you refuse me,
Honey, you lose me
And you’ll be left alone
So, baby, telephone
And tell me I’m your own!”
Check please!
…Is that implying that she thinks that Ethan hugging her from behind would be better?
Maybe.
You’re supposed to do the side hug! Haven’t you ever seen 19 Kids and Counting?
Hug her from the side. There’s nothing lewd about a good side hug.
I understood it as a reference to side-hug too. In a lot of fundamentalist families you cannot hug someone not in your family face-to-face. You both stand facing the same way and put one arm around the other’s back so that only your arms and sides touch.
Some families/individuals are strict enough about this that you cannot regular-hug anyone except your spouse. It makes me sad that some people find it somehow wrong and sinful to hug your own child face-to-face.
Wow, I never thought I could hear something that would make me dislike fundamentalist Christians even more than I already do. That is just horrific! What kind of person could put up with that? And what kind of horrible God would forbid you from hugging your own children?
I had no idea some people were like that
So, why does Joyce think that Billie is a Christian?
IIRC Billie said as such, even if she isn’t practicing it very much.
Because she doesn’t have any evidence to contradict this notion. Yet.
No, Billie outright told Joyce she believed in God (and was surprised to hear that not everyone did), back when Joyce asked if the reason Billie wouldn’t go to Church on Sunday was because she was an atheist.
Believing in God is not the same as being a Christian in some parts of the USA.
You are correct about that.
But with regards to Billie, she has explicitly identified herself as Christian. See AgentKeen’s link below.
Everyone from Roomies is a Christian until explicitly stated otherwise (such as Joe). So that’s Danny, Billie, Ruth, Mary, Joyce and a few others.
Hmm to be honest I’d be a little surprised if Danny wasn’t at least agnostic.
I’m pretty sure Danny would call himself a Christian too, considering what he says in this strip: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/superexcited/
But as for his personal philosophy… yeah probably.
It’s confusing because a lot of people identify with religious groups on a cultural level, without it really matching up with what they believe religiously.
Like when I say I’m Catholic and I really just mean I grew up in a Catholic family and live my life in constant reaction to preemptive Catholic guilt. If we’re talking about religious ideology, I definitely consider myself agnostic.
And, well, I guess you could say that’s technically a contradiction in terms, but people describe themselves like this all the time.
One can be both Christian and agnostic at the same time, the terms aren’t mutually exclusive.
“Agnostic” just means that you either don’t know for sure that a god or gods exist and/or that you believe that we can’t know if gods exist. One can believe that the Christian God exists, without knowing for sure.
Because she is? And has said so on panel.
Billie explicitly referred to herself as a Christian when asked by Joyce, but still declined going to church with her, wanting to sleep in.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/christian/
She also seems to think it’s weird if you don’t at least believe in god.
She’s such a good person.
Honestly I’d date her
Better you than me. She’s a good kid, but she’s not my kind of crazy.
I’d consider her Prime dating material. I see a lot of Me in her.
And I just realized how wrong that Sounds.
Freudian PSL?
As the priest said to the altar boy…
That avatar with that comment is pretty hilarious
I wouldn’t. I wanna date a lady who’s chill. Just someone to veg out and play ukulele on the couch with me while we watch Steven Universe.
Wow, guilt about hugging would be so awful. Hugs are the greatest. Feels!
And yet, the “Christian side-hug” is a thing because religion can make you feel guilty about good things for no objectively justifiable reason.
As a Christian, I’ve never heard of this “Christian side-hug” until now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJAMu9cUtIc
Oh my god. Is this for real?
Here are some of the lyrics:
“I’m goin’ global
‘Cause you don’t know me
I’m buyin’ babies like Angelina Jolie
So quit that huggin’
And slow down, mama
And hit my fist like President Obama”
P.S. I went to an Orthodox Jewish middle school, and I was explicitly taught that touching boys on the hand would be deeply inconsiderate as it could distract said boys from their studies.
But nobody there attempted to rap about it.
Oh Joyce you poor sweet kid. You have a hell of a journey ahead of you.
First you must go through the forest of nails. Then you must traverse the lake of fire, before entering the plain of eternal screams…
…and then there’s the Rodents of Unusual Size.
Rodents of Unusual Size? I don’t believe they exist.
rex duodecim angelus
From Sumatra!
And that’s how you find the clitoris.
I KNEW I had the wrong map…
Do a Google Maps search for G-spot… No such place exists. 😉
*deep sniff* Ah yes, crippling existential drama. I was wondering when we would return.
Yep… that about sums up the “growing up in a religious household” experience, making you think that just being human is evil. -sigh- I feel for Joyce, I really do. :/
God, I feel for Joyce, and hope she can find a way to reconcile her beliefs while also finding her own happiness.
Is that a prayer or coincidence?
A bit of both I think.
As a person of faith myself I long ago worked out that God never wants a person to stop being human. Its about finding your own way of being happy while having the inner peace of your faith.
I’m also certain that the Lord doesn’t look down on you for dressing like a Goth, having tattoos, or loving someone outside marriage…if He does than I guess I’m in big trouble (he he).
Joyce, my advice as one person of faith to another (even if you are a fictional character), find your own groove like Cusco.
Keep to your faith, but know that God doesn’t want you to be unhappy either. He wants you to have joy in your life and to love Him and to love your friends. Letting lose one in awhile is not backsliding. You don’t have to walk on water, someone else already did that for you. Believe me whatever path you take will serve His plan regardless.
I’m not religious myself, but it’s clear to me that Joyce sincerely believes
in God, but can’t reconcile that with her emotional and physical needs. So
I just hope she can realize that a person can believe and still be fully human,
that it doesn’t have to be a conflict between the two at all, that they can
even be in harmony with each other.
My first thought with this strip was, “Wait, Billie has a boyfriend? Wait– oooohhh…”
I actually started hitting the back button on the comic to see what I had missed before that kicked in. Then I decided to make brownies instead.
Poor Joyce…she’s doing the A-frame hug…let not the naughty bits potentially come into proximity with other potentially naughty bits! It’s usually guys who do the A-frame….
Admittedly, it’s the guys who usually have a cross-bar on their A-frame…
Come here, Joyce. Let the hug of Emperor Kiva take your sorrow and pain.
Just not face to face.
Or from behind.
Or in any way that covers too miuch area.
Ot the wrong kind of area.
Fear and (self) loathing in Indiana
Oooh, Joyce. *coughs* Ehm… about Billie’s “boyfriend”…
I know it has been shown before that Joyce and Walky do consider each other friends, even if it’s with some major head-butting, but it’s still sweet to see her acknowledge it.
Joyce has a lot of growing to do, but it’s good that she can recognized a lot of the complicated emotions she’s going through here. She’s got a major edge on a lot of people in their late teens. (I don’t think she’s 20 yet)
When has it ever been shown they consider each other friends? He thinks she’s crazy and she thinks he’s an ass. The only reason they spend time together is because of class, Dorothy or because Joyce is afraid to be alone in public.
If nothing else, Joyce is happy for Dorothy, which implies that even if she doesn’t see eye-to-eye with him she’s not still in “he’s not good enough for her” mode.
I don’t know if they’re “friends,” as such, but between his relationship with Dorothy and his reaction to her assault (i.e. he believed it happened and didn’t attack her over it), he’s pretty firmly placed in the “safe male” category.
It’s only been about 18 days since they started college. Most of the cast is still 18.
Good comic.
I feel really bad for Joyce but is it bad that I started howling with laughter when she mentioned Billie? Oh Joyce. If only you knew…
The gulf between her head-canon and the reality of Billie-Ruth is going to be spectacular if (okay when) it gets outed by Mary.
I think Billie IS Christian. I’ve know a lot of queer people who are Christian. I know it might sound weird, but…*shrugs* A lot of people fight over if the bible really says gay people are bad.
Sigh* Well Joyce here’s something you should ask yourself what DO you want? Because you still seem unhappy and it kind of tugs at the heart a bit.
Joyce wants, I think, to be able to love her friends and feel happy that they’re happy without thinking her friends are going to hell and the things that make them happy are evil. And she wants to be able to be made happy by the same things they are.
That’s not something that’s gonna be obtainable for her for a while.
Jeez, is Joyce starting to become a parody? Sometimes fiction (and especially graphic fiction in a realistic world) has to try extra hard to be credible.
You forgot to read the part about Joyce being “auto-biographical” .
She already shared these feelings with Dorothy.
This is a consistent narrative, and a sign of good writing
Why do you think she’s parody? I’m ten years older than her, male, and secular, and I very often have the exact same feelings she expresses in this comic. Having friends who are different from you in one basic way is hard.
No.
If Joyce were a parody, this would be funny instead of incredibly tragic.
I always enjoy how whenever I write a comic that is 100% authentic to myself in a painfully honest and vulnerably introspective way, some guy comes along and shits all over it.
Have an internet hug from a complete stranger, if you want one.
*Hugs you* Shh Ssh Ssh. Don’t listen to the people on the internet
If that’s not an evangelical Christian side hug, it’s an evil embrace.
The internet is the shittingest
don’t worry, we love you Willis
I guess this is outside your experience? Because it rings true to me, and I’m not one of the people who have gone through it themselves, like the author.
You should pay attention to his writing, and learn a bit more about the sorts of things other people go through, before assuming you already know all about what is and isn’t credible.
Haha, oh Joyce. Billie doesn’t have a “boyfriend”…
What do you mean Ruth is by far the manliest man in this entire series
uh -oh…
Joyce could easily say she loves Ethan next.
Problems….
If he says it back, it could strengthen this relationship for the worse, keep him in the closet, and strengthen Joyce’s repressions
If he doesnt say it, it could be devastating to her and confirm that she doesnt belong.
She didnt hear Walky’s “save” , or this wouldnt be happening.
Willis, please dont do that!
( OH , you are going to do that arent you ? ( sigh )
of course you are! Ok , I can handle it… everybody brace yourselves for a “Damn you , Willis moment .
These characters were so close to developing a healthy , loving friendship.
Ethans self-aware enough to try and tell Joyce he loves her like a friend, too, but not romantically .
But when a woman is crying and you are hugging her — its just not the best time to qualify an ” i love you ” .
There is really no good time after that, either :/ .
Joyce doesn’t like breaking promises
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/forget/
Something I’ve noticed about that: the last several times Joyce has been seen trying to call Becky, she didn’t answer. If I remember correctly, the last time Joyce actually talked to Becky was at the church when she was bragging about holding Ethan’s hand. Eventually, she’ll manage to contact Becky and I’m guessing it won’t go well. I see two possibilities: 1) Becky is the one who’s changed (she’s given up the fundametalism thing and doesn’t want to talk to Joyce anymore), though this one is less likely than 2) Becky thinks Joyce has changed and doesn’t want to talk to her anymore out of fear that Joyce will be a bad influence on her. If it’s the latter, Joyce probably won’t react well to the shunning…
Or, maybe, just maybe, Becky and Joyce will be able to retain their friendship and accept the changes in the other.
From a narrative standpoint Becky doesn’t need to be the anchor to Joyce’s old life – her family is that already. Maybe Becky changes as well in a way similar to Joyce – to highlight how life changes people – or in a different way to serve as a “road not taken” parallel. Or maybe she will be just as she was when we last saw her a few weeks ago, because everything does not have to follow the narrative standpoint.
A much more crucial question than whether or not Becky will accept the change in Joyce is if Joyce herself is going to accept it. My guess is that Becky – if she is anything like Joyce at all – will do her best to help Joyce when the call finally goes through. How that help expresses itself will be very different depending on if Joyce ask “please help me return to my christian values” or “please help me accept myself as I am.”
As much as I’m sad for the position Joyce is in with her relationship to Ethan… I’m so glad that she’s got someone she feels she can open up this much to. That’s not an easy thing to confront in yourself. :c
Stop drawing parallels to my life, damnit!
Ouch. The irony of this page and Billie is physically painful.
I’d say her brain might explode from it if/when she finds out the truth, but then again she is currently in bed with a gay guy while hugging her face to his chest.
Poor poor Joyce 🙁
My heart bleeds for Joyce. She’s too young for this angst. She needs to be out having fun and enjoying her youth. She needs to cut that Fundie albatross loose that her parents have hung around her neck and live a little. Having a platonic relationship with a Gay man is a start, I guess. At least she has someone to talk to that won’t judge her or think she’s weird.
Maybe Joyce’s mom and dad were right…but only if that’s an abrupt topic change, and she means their advice on cutlery or something.
Holy fucking feels.
I started crying around panel 2 [damn you Willis!]. T_T
That moment you realize one of your favorite cartoonists puts his own pain into his work.
Joyce’s breakdown here sounds just like David’s breakdown on Tumblr.
Hugs.
What breakdown was that?
Ethan is using Joyce as a beard. He may really like her, but no doubt about it, he is using her.
Joyce knows he is gay and she is in this situation for the same reason he is, she is hiding. She has the fundie thing going (and that is getting old) and she has the near rape that scared the Hell out of her.
She is 18 and not worldly, but she is not ‘sweet’ and she is not stupid. She is bouncy, outgoing, annoying, overbearing, but not sweet.
She knows that her religion as taught by her parents is making her miserable. She used her own judgement and told her parents NO, when they said she couldn’t see Dorothy because Dorothy was an atheist or ungodly or whatever. So Joyce CAN use her own judement when pushed far enough.
She knows she will never get anywhere in her relationship with Ethan, she used ‘degaying’ him as an excuse, she is too smart to believe that. He makes a good shield. A platonic relationship is what she has, but not what she wants or needs. she has Sarah and Dorothy to talk to and although she exasperates Sarah, Sarah cares about her.
One of the other of them will break, and whichever one it is, Joyce is going to hurt worse.
Don’t forget that the degaying and her fundamental attitudes aren’t the only thing that put her into this relationship with Ethan. The one time she went to a college party, she got attacked, which doesn’t exactly help foster the idea that doing something non fundamental is a good thing. She feels *safe* with Ethan because he doesn’t want to have sex with her, won’t attack her because she feels uncomfortable about sex. So now she’s starting to realize that safe does NOT = happy, but it’s so hard to break that self-protective instinct, even when it’s making you unhappy.
I don’t know about that actually; gayness as a choice is a thing with a lot of right wing Christians. Joyce seems to have accepted all of their doctine at face value (creationism, atheists as immoral, etc.) and is only questioning it now.
That isn’t to say she isn’t “too smart to believe that”, just that until confronted by proof (and raised in an echo chamber for certain beliefs), one can believe a lot of things regardless of intelligence.
I think you’re right. The conflict is in what Joyce will ultimately choose to believe: her upbringing or her observations.
You know, panel 2 isn’t just for the religiously stunted of us. Imagine being a single middle aged man in the middle of all of your friends being either happily married or in a long term relationship. Love/hate for sure.
This divorced middle-aged man felt like that for years. It’s only recently that I finally got comfortable enough with my life to where I’m not secretly envious of my friends in good relationships.
Seconded, except that I’m still working on being comfortable with it and not envious.
and so, the stage for Willis’ next Slipshine is set…
Joyce and Ethan Make a Platonic Incompatible-Sexualities Snuggle?
this is becoming too relatable STOP. at the same time, that alt text made me giggle like no other. it’s a roller coaster of emotions
willis why
My first thought on reading the alt-text:
“More like pre-marital sleepy-weepy.”
Those first 3 panels bongo slapped me right in the feels.
YES, THE FEELS
I don’t know where we are. I haven’t been here either. And at some point, we’re going to have to explain this. Wouldn’t it be better if we had a story? Wouldn’t it be better if we told other people that in this moment, we understood something about people? Or would pretending to be scared be better? I don’t know. You’re looking at me to know, and all I know is this. I wish we could share this moment, but you’re hoping I can be your guide, and honestly, I am *at least* as terrified as you are. If I don’t have to speak for a lost life, neither of us have lost it.”
🙁
Billie being religious and a lesbian would be an excellent twist. Not to mention…entirely true to life.
And she is, I just forgot it. Of course, I grew up Presbyterian and my wife grew up a fundamentalist so SHE’S stunned at all the crazy stuff I believe like not hating on the gays or believing in Young Earth Creationalism.
And to clarify, my wife gave up those beliefs. She’s just surprised I didn’t think of any of them as explicitly Christian.
Bi. Billie’s bi.
Uh, yeah, plenty of gay people believe in a religion. Helps that anti-gay sentiment isn’t nearly as strong in non-abrahamic religions, but more to the point, even within them, they tend to gravitate towards denominations that, you know, don’t hate them.
Which isn’t to say there aren’t catholic gay people and the like, but.
It’s okay Joyce, non-sexual hugging with all parties fully clothed is just like hugging a family member.
Especially when the person you’re hugging has no sexual attraction to you whatsoever.
I don’t think the hetronormative narrative recognizes no sexual attraction as an option when non-sibling boys and a girls engages in face-to-face-embracing.
Since she’s struggling with fear about her own actions and temptations, his attraction to her isn’t the concern. 🙁
True
Ahh sweet envy-hate, my old nemesis.
Joyce performs a sleepy.
Poor baby. 🙁
Damn like…accuracy.
A man standing behind a two way mirror smiles and scribbles some observation notes onto his clipboard. The Head scientist enters the room and seats himself in a large rotating armchair.
HS: What have you to report?
Man: *clears throat* she seems to be responding well to the deprogramming sir. She has become self aware and is beginning to question her logic. *Checks notes* by my calculations, she has a definite chance of becoming well adjusted if…..
HS: If?
Man: if we increase the intensity of our deprogramming. The only issue is she may suffer more and there is a chance of mental destabilization.
HS: hmm….. do it.
The head scientist smiles.
HS: Once we remove those silly notions from her head, *leans forward in his chair and interlocks his fingers* then the real work begins….
Really?
Me: Hey guys.
HS: Who are you?
Me: Emperor Kiva and you’re going down!
*WAKE UP FEVER!*
I read that as Head Alien…
I almost wrote that in but decided to leave the past where it was
And the Head Scientist is Dargon Chesterfield!
I can tell this is a sad moment but I am laughing too hard at her comments about Billie.
BILLIE IS SUCH A CHRISTIAN *commits a homosexuality* SHE’S GONNA BE HAPPILY MARRIED BEFORE I EVER DO *only as long as this story takes place past October 2014*
Yes, because Billy has a boyfriend now, wasn’t depressed, and isn’t horribly emotionally damaged.
Well, it’s a pretty accurate depiction of how people think the other half lives and envy/belittle/judge them based on wholly inaccurate assessments; e.g. https://twitter.com/pyratejack/status/509740255558115328
It’s easy to forget just how sheltered Joyce was. She couldn’t ride her bike around the block until she was 16. No sisters (that she knew of). Yes, that’s what the homeschooled fundy lifestyle is like. Check out the many websites that deal with the fallout. The kids consider it a form of child abuse when they finally escape.
No wonder she is so desperate for female friends. The last six weeks (years) have brought more change to her life than the previous 18 years. Give her time (like until 2020).
I know what she is going through…been there myself. The level of guilt you feel for doing what is simply part of being human is horrible. You feel like you are such a horrible sinner for the simplest things.
Interesting watching this happen, but I feel so bad for Joyce.
I am horribly fascinated watching Joyce’s brain strip its gears.
It’s like watching a fatal car wreck in ultra-slow motion. You know it’s going to end badly, but you can’t stop watching to see what caused it. I used to do wreck re-construction so I watched a lot of those videos. The one that made me the most angry was the one where LEO had initially blamed a cyclist for “not yielding” to a truck making a right turn across the bike lane before seeing the video, and then the video showed the truck hitting the cyclist from behind as it made the turn. One the cyclist never got to see the truck’s turn signal, and two the cyclist was in front of the truck and had the right of way so the truck should have yielded. Three the cyclist was in the truck’s right-front blind spot, so the driver didn’t know he was about to run her over. Just bad all the way around… But I don’t do that thing any more so maybe I will be a little more sane soon?
Ugh. So many comments about Ethan’s “glorious man-chest”. I feel like I’m reading Twilight again. (Although it is his chest and not his face, and it is actually kind of relevant instead of every single time Ethan appears in a comic, so it is better that way.)
I for one want every single future mention of Ethan in the comic to be accompanied by praise of his glorious man-chest.
Don’t. Tempt. Me.
Tags: ethan, ethan’s glorious man chest, feels, issues, joyce
maybe her parents should have locked her in a tower until the time for her arranged marriage to her 2nd cousin.
Joyce’s parents sure did a number on her 🙁
Oh Joyce… You’re like looking in a mirror. A transgendered tragically self aware mirror.
🙁
Is this really how fundies are?
Thinking they’re dirty whenever they’re simply doing things humans should be doing?
A strict upbringing of any kind can instill a mindset that’s almost like literal programming. They don’t know how to handle things that are ‘off the script.’ If the kids can find a support network that is willing to help them adapt, they do fine. But it can go very badly as well. They can be over-trusting because they assume that everyone else is working on the same moral code they are.
Joyce is… doing acceptably well, I think.
For a good non-religious example, look at the 1998 movie “Soldier” starring Kurt Russel. The way the soldiers were raised, they didn’t know how to handle a non-military situation.
That’s a surprisingly great movie. It portrays an “alien” mindset in a human better than most movies with actual aliens.
Side bar: that is one of my most favourite movies, how it wasn’t a smash is beyond me.
My fundie sister refuses to read certain romance authors because there is too much sex in the books. When I told her about an adventure story she might like her response was “Is it normal adventure or slutty adventure. Because you read a lot of slutty adventure.” Slutty adventure=Romantic suspense.
So…was Joyce brought up ATI? Her beliefs sound very Duggarish to me.I’m shocked she wears pants.
I don’t think Joyce will be in any Slipshines or whatever. Because of a pic Willis posted on Deviantart of Joyce in her bra and pants and next to her is the words “I’m so sorry about this.”
Where can I see this pic? For research obviously
At his Deviantart page.
The one of her and Sarah sitting on the washers? That’s all I can see with Joyce
Nope, Joyce will be alone with a white background. And putting her hair up.
He must have removed it which is fine by me.
I believe you’re after this.
I can’t supply a link because I’m using an X-Box 360
Remind me again why she hasn’t at least messed around with herself before? Like seriously, I’m pretty sure there isn’t some rule in the Bible about masturbation.
ingrained belief system designed by control freaks and built upon shame about being a normal fucking human being
Uh, there is actually. Hence the word “onanism”.
Onan wasn’t masturbating, he failed to impregnate his brother’s widow by using the withdraw system of birth control after the widow only consented to relations for an heir.
There’s Bible canon, and there’s Bible fanon. Unfortunately the fanon is stronger.
People like Joyce suffer because the way certain Christians read the book, not necessarily what is actually written there.
So “but it’s not in the book” is not a valid point here. “Joyce’s church and Joyce’s parents and Joyce herself believe it’s part of God’s rules (sometimes baselessly)” is more like what actually happens.
But Onan received the divine smackdown for spilling his seed onto the floor, rather than using it to impregnate a woman. Every sperm is sacred and all that.
When a woman masturbates, no reproductive material is wasted. If there is anything in the Bible banning female masturbation, I’m not aware of it.
(Then again, I was raised without religion and have only read bits and pieces of the Bible later on, out of curiosity, so I’m not exactly an authority on Christianity.)
Wait does that mean I gotta stop then?
Someday I might tire
Having walked through these fires
Because I am wired wrong
Maybe someday I’ll be
In a place where I can see
That I’m not wired wrong
–David Michael Bennet
Nice song but hard to listen to. Thought it suited most of DOA, but especially Joyce and Ethan today.