Ornithologists. “A little bird told me”. Oinologists. “I heard it through the grapevine”. Oecotrophologists. “You are not going to eat that, are you?”.
That would be a great Walkieverse spinoff. Mary and her group we haven’t met yet get ahold of some Martian equipment and fly off to force-convert the universe. Early on focus shifts to the new protagonists, the resistance on some alien world that are fighting Mary.
I think she was initially a little like “huh” over Joyce’s suddenly varied friend group and is then relieved and amused that despite this, Joyce remains ever the optimist.
The tension is unbearable: something seems normal in a Willis comic! The crowd DEMANDS to know what unspeakable horrors this prepares! (I am with the crowd: this is fishy)
And the OT only prohibits Male-on-male hanky-panky, the girls are free to do whatever they want when it’s not their time to service the man of the harem.
There’s apparently something in Romans about it, actually. It’s still all nonsense mind you, but in their minds, the hardcore Christians do have their bases covered when it comes to defending their “right” to be assholes about it.
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:” – Romans 1:26
That is the verse that is interpreted to be anti-lesbian. I don’t see it.
If they go “for even their women … against nature” that sounds to me more like being vocal against anal sex rather than lesbianism. Or any kind of kinkiness.
One probably has to view this against the backdrop of current Roman culture which copies a lot of antique Greek culture (in which male homosexuality is the main popular romantic love interest and women are “who cares? Women are just for proliferation and raising kids but culturally uninteresting”), but with the latter having been watered down/supplanted by various conquerors (Macedonia and Rome IIRC). And with Christianity coming in as “Judaism light” with cherry-picked laws. Coattailing on homophobia was actually a reasonably obvious choice.
At any rate, given the times, a female monastery might have earned that kind of bashing, or women daring to read non-trivial texts. The times still very much viewed women as men’s appendices not worth much attention of their own, akin to cattle. It is true that early Christianity was out to change perceptions somewhat, but one stlil has to view such statements against the current historical backdrop of the Romans.
I’d have to look at the original Greek to see whether this “lesbianism” interpretation has any actual chance of holding water.
In questionable content, Fay’s lesbian sister has an affair with Lil Sis from diesel sweeties, who introduces her to “anal plugs”, about which she and Dora compare notes. I don’t know if they had anal plugs in biblical Times: perhaps we can consult Jeph Jacques?
Again, I’d argue that Romans 1:26 isn’t calling homosexuality a sin. God is using it as a punishment for people who have committed two more obvious sins – blasphemy and idolatry (“They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator…” Romans 1:25).
Punishments are hardly sins – in fact, Christianity considers many forms of punishment cathartic and purifying. In Biblical times, homosexuality could be a nasty curse, for a small population – it means you’d have no kids, and your people would risk extinction. It’s much less of a curse in modern times – in fact, overpopulated parts of the world may consider it a blessing.
Actually, in a stable agricultural society, food and land are scarce, and overpopulation is often several kinds of problem (malnutrition, disease, war, and intra-family tensions). Your family’s genes probably do better by having some uncles and aunts who don’t reproduce, and instead are available to help provide for their nieces and nephews.
You keep saying “Christianity considers punishment purifying,” but I have no idea where you get this from. The closest I can figure is a passage in 2 Corinthians where Paul talks of a(n unspecified) thorn in his flesh that keeps him from becoming growing too conceited, but he also repeatedly begs God to have it removed and ultimately decides that this horrible, awful, terrible “weakness” keeps him strong. Not exactly “purifying.” “Humbling” or perhaps “humiliating” is closer.
If that is referring to homosexuality, it’s a pretty damn homophobic way to regard it.
That is how many (not all, perhaps not even a majority) Biblical scholars read that passage, that Paul was a self-loathing homosexual and as such had even less consideration than most people of that time for women, which made him pretty bad. Paul must have had some redeeming qualities in person, or he would never have been able to hijack the Christian movement, but his writings make him sound like a grade-A asshole.
Was Paul basically a Yeshua-espousing Saul? Saul seems to have been hella heretic Hunter. Paul seems to have been a master at pushing people’s buttons, out maneuvering Yeshua’ s posse, undermining the Temple priests he used to an enforcer for …
Paul is the name Saul of Tarkus took after his road epiphany. They are the same person, Paul just decided he could be more destructive from within the church than outside it…
Right, Saul/Paul, changed sides, did he change persona at all–that is what I was asking: what did his (hysterical) conversion on the road change beside the first letter of his name?
Saul didn’t actually change his name to Paul following his conversion. That’s a popular misconception. He always had both names — Saul was his Jewish name and Paul was his Roman citizen name.
That’s very interesting and makes totes sense. I’ve always been struck by the story of Saul bringing a gentile into the Temple, being arrested by the centurion who brought the goon squad to stop the riot that Saul provoked, and Paul telling the centurion that he had citizenship AFTER the centurion had tortured him, thinking that he was just another Jew. I’ve always imagined that centurion going “oh shit! I hate this gods damned place, why couldn’t I get assigned to Greece or Egypt?”
Do you think that Paul was interested in and more open to gentiles BECAUSE he was a citizen and so had a less insular view of non-Jews than Peter? Is that interpretation reconcilable with his period as THE hunter of Jesus’s followers, which was intra-Jewish stuff–at least, I’ve understood it as him working as an enforcer for The Temple. I’VE realized that I’m unsure how to understand him being both a Jew and a Roman; both extremely anti-Jesus-Movement at first, then pulling the movement in a new direction, opening it to gentiles, even while he still CLAIMED to be Jewish … argh. Complex person it seems.
I know a male-on-male sexual position that might describe ( I’m quite proficient at it , too. Although, i dont think I would be mistaken for “a thorn” . )
Although “thorn in the side” is already a metaphor. This could even be a lost idiom in Aramaic. Much of the Bible is filled with lost idioms, that The Jews even, no longer recognize.
If Jews, and most have, ( other than Karaites ) lost the idioms behind this, what hope do christians have understanding their own texts, … say , ones which call back that identical yet reverse idiom, in the “mark of the beast” ?
It’s all cool; God made Billie and Ruth super-lesbians so that he could record it all on his DVR for the purposes of. Um. . God works in mysterious ways…
“is this 911? Oh God, I am with my best friend hunting and I think I accidentally shot him dead! What shall I ever do?” “Please be calm. Can you make sure he is actually dead?” “— BANG! — Ok, what now?”
Agreed. Bisexual erasure is part of the problem with Joyce’s words in this strip too. The whole “girls are just experimentation, but all her problems are solved now that she’s in love with a presumed man!” -_-
But she actually does believe that and is trying the same thing on Ethan. We don’t even know if she knows bisexuality is a thing. She’s been raised super heteronormatively and doesn’t even really see being gay as a real thing, just a mistake to be fixed.
Yeah. Joyce’s words are definitely problematic, but they come from her character so it’s okay from a writing standpoint she’s saying them, even if they’re a sign she really needs growth.
We as readers know better, they’re bisexual, and should be referred to out-of-universe as such.
I know that Willis drew a picture of the two of them and Danny for Bi Awareness Day, so I think it’s safe to assume they’re both bi, even if we don’t explicitly see Ruth expressing attraction to more than one gender in-comic.
She just outed Billie to a total stranger, not to mention spilled her most painful secrets to aforementioned stranger, super-casual, and then dismissed alcoholism and depression by saying love would cure all of them. Yeah, she’s sheltered and all, but that doesn’t mean she’s not doing something shitty.
While I agree with all of this, isn’t it sad that “outing” someone is something we have to be wary of, instead of at best a minor faux pas, in case we aren’t accurate?
In general, you do have a point, but even as a faux pas it’s incredibly rude just to do it to someone instead of letting them do it themselves. I know what you’re saying, why should it matter, sexuality shouldn’t be a big deal, etc, I understand that and I agree 100%. But coming out is still super personal and everyone has their own reasons for doing it or not doing it and their own speed at which they do it. Whether we live in a ‘no big deal’ society or not (which, maybe in some countries we’re inching towards, but in big parts of the world coming out can still result in terrible things, like loss of your job, family, freedom and even life). So. Yeah.
I’m sorry I stepped on my soapbox there for a second as a reply to your comment, it just came over me^^
I agree with you as far as recognizing your own sexuality and coming to terms with it is concerned. It’s actually something I’m still struggling with after almost 25 years, and the details are between me and my psychologist until I do. But once you do, and you have the guts to admit it to someone, you shouldn’t have to be worried about who else hears it. If I ever realize I’m not straight, my only worry will be getting harassed over it (physically and socially, though the latter already happens often enough due to my lack of masculinity that it won’t be new), not having some great personal secret revealed.
Then again, I realize it’s different strokes for different folks, and I apologize if I accidentally offended anyone. To re compensate, I offer you food item of your choice (unless you are a breatharian, in which case I’m really worried about you).
Yeah, but again, that is super different for everyone on an individual, personal basis. I came out to most people in my life 14 years ago, but somehow you never really stop coming out. Every time you meet new people you have to do it again. It gets hella easier over time, but there’s also always the chance someone new you meet is gonna have a negative reaction. And it doesn’t have to be just physical reactions (even though those can happen too of course and yikes, they should never happen to anyone ever), even people saying really ignorant shit can hurt you. Again, super personal for everyone, yadda yadda.
But if the food offer still stands I’m taking vanilla cream donuts, please 😉
That’s certainly the way it should be, but at the same time, it really isn’t.
To a stranger who won’t be around for too long, it’s certainly more invasive than anything else. But people could be hearing that would take offense, and… Well, there’s a reason why Carla was worried about it being a hate crime until she saw everyone’s door had a dick on it and has a single. Harrassment is still a MAJOR issue. And coming out really is a continual process. Like, my parents, my brother, and a fair number of my relatives all know my sexuality. A lot of my friends do as well. But at the same time, I have a grandfather who I love very, very much, who I’m still not out to. Given I’m only vaguely attracted to anyone in the first place and not in a place mentally to have an SO, I may NEVER have to come out to him, and I don’t want to unless I need to. I don’t keep it a secret that I go to my campus’s local LGBTQIA+ group, but I still don’t put on my Facebook profile that I’m attracted to other women because there’s a handful of people whose reactions I’m still scared of who I value enough I’d rather not say if I could. Is that a really shitty attitude to have, especially to people you love? Oh, holy shit is it ever. But at the same time, sometimes you have to choose things like that. You shouldn’t have to, but you do. Because these are people who you do love, very very much, and you want to stay part of your life, and while it’s easy enough to say “people who don’t accept you have no place in your world” it’s really hard to do.
That’s what coming out is, at its core. Being willing to trust that other people will accept who you are unconditionally and that the people who don’t don’t matter to you. Being willing to accept that some people may not react well and that if that happens, you may very well lose that relationship. Being willing to be the one to try and challenge their thoughts. And being in a place where the people who you might have to cut out aren’t in a position to hurt you. Like, there are totally people like Jocelyn, who are out to friends but not their parents because it’s unsafe to be out to their parents. Or even to one parent. Shit’s extremely complicated.
Like, tldr, yeah. Coming out is an incredibly personal, complicated experience and still needs to be 100% on the person who’s coming out’s terms. In an ideal world, it shouldn’t have to be. But since it’s still essentially making yourself vulnerable to who you’re coming out to, it is.
Abso right. We should all be trying to make the world a place where it’s safe and comfortable to come out if you want to, not taking it on ourselves to out people or being careless about it. In grad school I had a friend who shared an apartment with a guy who I thought was just a guy he shared an apartment with. One time we were travelling to a conference together and his apartment mate drove us to the airport. When we got there they had a sort of tussle for a moment: the apt mate wanted a good bye kiss and my friend was evidently hesitant to give it to him in front of me, but eventually did. I went to myself “oh, okay, I had no idea” — zero “gaydar” I guess — “what a drag to have to worry about giving your SO a kiss when you’re leaving on a trip”. My friend and I waited for our flight in the bar with drinks, talking like we normally did. I wondered whether to SAY something to indicate that he was still cool with me OR show it by saying nothing unless he brought it up and just act as I always had–which is what I did. He never did say anything and I never gossiped to anyone BUT he and his SO attended my wedding a few years later and we have a lovely picture of them in our album.
You forgot “belittled the worth of same sex relationships” and “committed bisexual erasure” in that charge as well. -_- Joyce is understandable in doing these things, but not excusable.
Yes, but Walky outed Billie too, to Joyce. Maybe Joyce even got the idea that it’s okay to talk about it from Walky, who’s billie’s childhood friend. (Lord, Lord, Joyce learning social norms from Walky!! Just the idea…
Yes, but… unlike Mary, there’s nothing mean-spirited about what Joyce is doing. Yeah, I know, “intent is not magic” in terms of actions and results, but it counts for character judgement. I can never get on board with the “Joyce is a terrible person!” crowd because I guess I draw a bright line between not *knowing* how your behaviour impacts people and not *caring* that it does. Joyce is a child in need of education and experience, not a villain in need of censure.
There’s a difference between unintentionally hurting someone and intentionally hurting someone, but in the end, you still are being hurtful. Yeah, I think Joyce is essentially a better person than Mary! But she does need censure. Censure is not punishment. Someone telling her she’s fucking up or getting mad at her for being hurtful is something she needs! And as someone who has been clinically depressed and who falls on the LGBT spectrum, Joyce’s dismissiveness and ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ attitude has absolutely harmed me when aimed at me by real people in my life.
As the saying goes, if you’re not outraged you’re not paying attention AND when othering happens right in front of you you’d better say something because silence works as acceptance. ESPECIALLY you have to challenge your family and friends–friends don’t let friends other people without calling them on it. And sometimes laying into someone is necessary, but quiet and gentle works better with some people. Surely Dorothy is going to have to have more than one talk with Joyce and it will be interesting to see how she does it. Joyce is facing a crisis. She’s going to eventually see that people who she knows are good and who she likes are being hurt by the stones thrown by Mary AND eventually she’ll be told or maybe realize herself that she is just a “kinder gentler” Mary if she doesn’t challenge Mary and accord her friends their full human dignity and her support. (Mary delenda set)
I agree with everything you say here (and my bad for misusing ‘censure’ – sorry). I absolutely don’t mean to excuse Joyce; for some reason, the distinction between “That’s horrible” and “You’re horrible” just gets to me.
Except for Mary. Mary is horrible and can DIAF, kthxbye. 😉
Ah, but Willis presumably has male organs in spite of being attracted to women, so he is a transsexual lesbian. And as long as he is not planning on doing anything about having his male sex organs fixed, he is a queer transsexual lesbian.
and the males are all potential stockers…I just painted a real fucked up alternative universe, you know what screw it led it ride its not the most screw’d up thing I’ve ever said.
1.) Becky has already done pre-marital hanky-panky.
2.) Becky is lez for Joyce.
Either way, mayhem will ensue. Actually, number 2 will be really interesting if her and Joyce actually do have sex. Joyce looks like a screamer to me, and her first time should be ear-shattering.
That last part is actually pretty uncomfortable for some reason. Joyce is clearly not in a position to have sex any time soon – she’s overrunning with hormones, is recovering from near-rape, and is still incredibly confused with her stances on sex and sexuality.
Or she and Joyce have done premarital hanky-panky together in the past, and Joyce never realised that it counted. (Fine, less than likely. but the idea appeals to my sense of humour.)
Ivy I agree with you 100%. People can be ‘sheltered’ and still understand the word decency.
Joyce has none whatsoever when it comes to treating ‘non-Joyce thinkers’, like real people.
What she did, dumping those statements about Billie is nothing short of shitty. Added to her introductions of her dorm neighbors in the same light.
Joyce is an insensitive clod.
Playing devil’s advocate, Becky is her best friend. Based on how close they seem to be, they probably shared their opinions and gossip about everything with each other. Even the ones that would get you slapped in public.
Not saying it makes it any better, especially in an open area like this, but I’m less offended that she’s saying it to Becky than if she were saying this to Sarah, for instance.
Joyce just makes me so aggressive sometimes, holy crap. Sorry, but she just does. It’s just frustrating to watch and every time we think she’s made some progress she says something like this and it just friggin’ does my head in.
Had it even been two months since the comic started? It took me more than two years to get rid of most of my wrong ideas about how the world works, I still have a few of them crop up from time to time, and I wasn’t even religious or a fundie.
Yes, in-comic time moves like molasses, but that doesn’t really change my frustration as a reader for whom it has been years^^
Also, other characters have gone through some pretty significant changes and developments in this same time span, so why shouldn’t Joyce?
No, of course not. I’m not saying I expect Joyce to have done a complete 180 by tomorrow. All I’m saying is that it’s frustrating to watch. For me. As a reader. Joyce the character can take all the time she needs and me the reader is just gonna have to deal with it. I just replied to your comment re: the time that has passed in-comic. Sure it’s a short time span, but it’s also not 5 minutes. Things *can* change. Obviously for Joyce it’s becoming increasingly clear that the whole changing thing is gonna take a whole goddamn long-ass time xD
Willis does say that Joyce is playing the part of Willis in this universe and look how he changed, however long it took. Joyce does a lot of messed up things but she’s suffering SERIOUS cognitive dissonance: she’s trying to reconcile her heartfelt attraction to people whose goodness she feels experientially with the messed up dogma she was inculcated with for her whole life AND she’s totes UN-worldly because she lived in social isolation till 2 months ago. She is dangerous,but let’s be charitable–she couldnt be any different than she is right now.
They’re still working the week after Parent’s weekend, I think it’s the Friday after. So we should be seeing Becky for the next several months as the Willis makes his way through the weekend.
I think the question we must ask ourselves is “What was Becky’s role in the Walkyverse?” If we can follow that, then we should be able to uncover her secret, should she have one in the first place
Oh… Crap. I couldn’t get this out of my head, wondering what you might have realized, and…I think I just did. If that’s the case…it explains a lot, and much of the analysis (and anti-Joyce anger) here will be painfully off the mark.
Something’s been forgotten about. I don’t know if I want to be right…
Joyce manages to be accepting in the most intolerant and judgmental way possible. Fairly standard response from the “nice” evangelicals I grew up around.
To be fair to Joyce, she’s talking to Becky, someone she’d obviously trust not to do anything “bad” with that information; so she’s really just being her old naive self here. What she did a few strips back, going to Dorothy about Walky and Billie, was a lot more messed up.
Simple, she’s a Ginger so neither God Nor Satan can threaten the Soul she doesn’t have, so she was able to uncover all the secrets of the universe, become immortal and is now friends with Joyce because most other people are depressing and boring.
It just occurred to me, Billie and Ruth could easily pull Mary’s blackmail material out from under her if Billie was relocated to one of the other dorms on campus.
If Ruth wasn’t her RA, they could date without any problems, and I doubt it would be difficult to piece together a half decent reason for the higher-ups to have Billie moved. Billie and Ruth have been fighting since day 1, and Ruth has personal reasons to want to avoid dealing with a girl with a DUI, and if nothing else I’m sure Sal would be willing to corroborate and pretend she and Billie have had problems rooming with each other. And the dorm management would probably look the other way on what’s already happened between them, given that the issue is quickly dealt with, as they’d rather not go through the hassle of replacing an RA.
And honestly, it might be better for them anyhow, since Ruth has a history of abusing her RA-ly powers where Billie is concerned.
No, really, I’m on to something with this pet theory.
Marcie and Malaya room together in another wing. Marcie agrees to swap rooming assignments with Billie so she can escape and room with Sal. Billie and Malaya try to kill each other 24-7.
I like this theory. Except Billie would intimidate Malaya into submission within a week, and the only further reference we’d see to Malaya and Billie being roommates is Malaya repeatedly telling the people she hangs out with that her roommate is “a scary mean bongo.” Either way though, win-win.
I’d be down for intimidated Malaya! Alternatively, Malaya sucks up because Billie’s fake ID is about as legit as fake IDs come. Yeah, they’d be a fun/horrible duo in any case.
But it is a webcomic about people making terrible choices tho, so I’m not sure it will occur to anyone in the cast that they could potentially solve this issue by going through the system instead of trying to zig-zag around it.
Yeah, because Malaya is super intimidated by people. I don’t know where people get their Malaya impressions but the Walkyverse Malaya got in a knife fight with a sentient alien enhanced super car and spent a few years harassing a super powered alien fighting coworker. THIS version of her attacked Amazi-Girl without hesitation and even recovered from the hit she took very quickly.
This works out so well! First off, both Sal and Marcie have vastly improved their roommates; they are already pretty much BFFs. Second, Malaya will be mostly left alone, since her official roommate, Billie, will be spending most of her time with Ruth. Billie and Ruth can then get lovey without fear of the school’s administrative ire. Wins all around, ISTM. Except maybe for Mary ….
Okay, I am totally sold on this now. Which means Willis needs to make this happen except have it blow-up spectacularly. You know that thing in sci-fi where someone has pheromones that make people around them become angry towards them. Like that, except with Billie and Malaya. The whole plan looks like it is going to work out, but Malaya finally meets Billie and takes an instant and inexplicable dislike towards her, which builds to the point that Malaya joins forces with Mary when she figures out what is going on. The two recruit a third woman from the wing, someone who is bored and doesn’t like Ruth, and suddenly there is a conspiracy arrayed against Billie and Ruth. Then things escalate…
Is Becky happy that Joyce is still herself or is she disappointed by that she didn’t change much by interaction with others there as her prime morals go?
I can’t decide yet, that last panel could be either taken as a bit sarcastic reply or maybe not…
I caught that too. She smiles, but it isn’t clear if she agrees with Joyce. I foresee Joyce’s house-of-cards-of-assumptions falling majestically before this arc is through. A major one being that Becky is the same person she remembers (or even was ever truly the person Joyce thought she was).
I think it’s both. Joyce is one of the most joyful, compassionate, and generous people you could imagine, and I can get not wanting to see your best friend lose their innocence.
You know, Joyce has become my favorite character in this comic. Not my favorite person, but my favorite character. She’s a genuinely good, warm hearted person, who’s finding her world may not be quite as simple as she was taught. I especially like the crisis of faith she’s going through, dealing with the fact that her friends can be happy, despite not living the life she was taught is the only way to true joy.
It will be interesting to see if she loses her faith, or can reconcile it with the idea that her upbringing may not have taught her everything she needs to know about life. The subtleties of her evolution have taken what could have been a simple story of someone discovering she’s wrong about life, and instead created a character arc of genuine depth and self discovery, where her own compassion, and genuinely good nature, are what enable her to challenge her own assumptions about what is wrong or right. Where hopefully, she won’t abandon all the good things about her faith, just because she’s questioning a part of it.
When they ran into Alice. Last panel Joyce there does actually look like she caught the implication. Kind of surprising, but I guess she’s putting together Walky’s comment with the obvious ex-girlfriends drama she just witnessed and remembering the “everyone tries it out eventually” comment Billie made to her earlier that’s quoted in the hovertext.
I wonder how long it’ll take Joyce to connect “Billie doesn’t necessarily just like boys” and “I ASSUMED that she was in love with a boy but nobody ever actually said that”.
Though I guess this is an assumption on my part that Joyce would accept same-sex love as a thing, rather than just same-sex hanky-panky-hell-going. Only God’s light can transform sinful lust into pure love, and your front parts have to fit together for that. That’s why they call it Holey Matchrimony.
I’m reasonably certain Joyce would never think same-sex love exists and that people in a same-sex relationship could be happy. I’m guessing homosexuality has been explained to her as all about sex and that gay people are deeply unhappy.
That’s actually a very real thing. I remember Orson Scott Card (himself a religious homophobe) was heavily criticized by his own community for portraying homosexuals as happy in their relationships.
A lot of people think homosexuals don’t even enjoy being homosexual, which is weird because most of the those people also think it’s a choice.
Keeping in mind that I am not speaking from experience and that I don’t agree with the following (assumed) opinion, I imagine that said people imagine homosexuality as they do other vices. You don’t generally think of addicts as being happy with themselves. And if they are, they are willfully ignorant/in denial, etc.
I have a serious question. Why does Willis use “is a Christian” solely as a character flaw?
I’m a lapsed Catholic, for crying out loud, and that offends me. Bible-thumping young-earth Creationism isn’t the only kind of Christianity out there. I realize he grew up in that, but I feel like he’s reliving that again and again through his characters.
But it truly is offensive. It seems prejudiced. I know many very intelligent, and very kind people around me who are devout Christians. And I’m in engineering.
P.S. No, devout does not mean literalist.
Leo’s a great guy until he says some sanctimonious
Leo’s a great guy. He’s a little confused about some things, but he at least recognizes that he doesn’t understand some things about Leslie. He’s a very good person UNTIL HE SAYS SOME SANCTIMONIOUS CHRISTIAN THING and we end that scene on a “nope, he’s a douche” note.
Billie’s a Christian. Danny most likely is as well. Sierra definitely is (well, she’s Mormon), and she’s always portrayed in a positive light. Amber is, and in the other universe we’ve seen Robin as a Christian (albeit a loose one) whose faith is always portrayed reasonably. Depending on the reveal coming up, Becky might be as well. And in the Walkyverse, Joyce eventually managed to balance faith with what she saw in the universe around her and was shown in an entirely positive light. Not such a stretch to guess this Joyce might eventually come around to it as well. It doesn’t always come up with such characters, but Robin and Amber in particular were fully capable of saying “Hey, I believe in Jesus as the messiah” and not being shown negatively for it.
The problem isn’t having faith, it’s using that faith to justify beliefs like homosexuality being wrong or that God has given you this wealth so it’s okay to hoard it. Things that concretely hurt other people, in some cases run opposite to what was actually taught, and are often used in such a way that you do come off as a major douche. And given Willis’s predominate experience with religion WAS Bible-thumping fundamentalist young-earth creationist and it SEVERELY fucked his brain up (Trust me, I had a different upbringing but a similar relationship to religion, and it really does fuck you up), it’s gonna affect him. Especially in wanting to point out that, hey, a lot of these beliefs GENUINELY AREN’T OKAY. Like, even this is Joyce grappling with that upbringing and still being portrayed positively. “She’s in love so it’s all okay!” isn’t “ha ha, look at the Christian!”, it’s “Oh, Joyce, you are extremely naive and inexperienced with the world”.
Agatha’s the Mormon. Sierra goes to the same church Joyce and Mary do. Both of them are among the nicest people in the comic.
But, yeah, what you said.
Also, in groups – almost any group – it’s the assholes who are the loudest and who stand out and tend to become the visible face of the group. And that applies to both comic strips and reality. Just like it’s easy to overlook the good people leading quiet Christian lives when there’s assholes using God as an excuse to deny their neighbors basic human rights on TV every day, it’s easy to overlook the Agathas and Sierras when the Marys are yelling at you.
Ah, thanks. Forgot! And oh, totally yes. Again, why I’m off organized religion in general. There are perfectly sweet, wonderful, virtuous people I know who got awesome things out of it. Much of my family included. (The reason I’m not soured on Christianity as a whole is totally because of my great-grandparents, who were two of the most amazingly good people I’ve ever known.) But it didn’t work for me, and I genuinely cannot stand the people who use it to be, well, Mary. My mom’s still a faithful person, and I still consider myself culturally from the church she’s from even if I’ve never been baptized and don’t believe anymore,* but the sanctimonious ones and a general lack of time mean she doesn’t really attend church anymore.
No, no, I’m sure that he made a spread sheet into which he entered all of your characters, their religious affiliations/orientations, and an adequate, random sample of how you’ve portrayed them — positive/neutral/negative — in all of your different series. After all, Dr Worm is an engineer and surely used a proper methodology to reach his sweeping, unqualified conclusions about your unrelenting denigration of all devout people. Have you actually read your own work?
Really, trying to confuse the issue with scientific methodology makes you worse than that comic of satanic porn, The Devil’s Panties; at least that Breeden woman is open about her devil worship.
I’d say it illustrates the biggest difference between them. Joyce assumes that everyone is a good person until proven otherwise, and it takes a lot to prove otherwise. Mary assumes that everyone is a bad person, and I’m not sure there’s any proving otherwise.
I was wondering why Billie seemed evasive, twice now, on the laundry topic. I think that basket contains her old cheerleader outfits and she’s going to throw them out. Clean break, new beginnings, that sort of thing.
Becky is smarter than her upbringing, it seems.
Also, I was offline for a few days, but I TOTALLY called her being a run away. Go back and look. I said it when she showed up.
Something is totes up with Becky. When Joyce learned of all the rampant homosexuality and promiscuity running around, she had a mini-meltdown, and she was supposed to be the best socialized kid in her church group. Meanwhile, Becky is all “Oh, that’s cool, whatevs” not caring at all. Something is up. WAY up.
Just because Joyce was the best socialized doesn’t mean she is the most prepared. Joyce was okay at first until she started paying attention to what was around her and realized she was surrounded my all she was taught to be against. At this point Becky is being introduced to these people for the first time and only has info on Billie, whose association with Joyce she questioned.
Beyond “oh, that’s cool, whatevs.” Look at that reaction. That’s not “oh, whatevs,” that’s “wait, you aren’t freaked by that” followed up by… “Ah, you’re just ignoring it, got it.”
I’m calling it now. Becky’s LGBI. That’s why she’s not at her Christian College.
I thought it was Becky who told Joyce to “never change”…
In my experience that can put a lot of pressure on a person too. Even if Joyce felt otherwise, I wouldn’t expect her to necessarily tell Becky and jeopardize their friendship. I mean… I don’t see Becky saying otherwise.
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It’s attitudes like Joyce’s that keep divorce lawyers in business
Truer words have never been said.
You mean optimists?
That or optometrists.
YOU BASTARD! I WAS GONNA SAY THAT!
Nuuuuuur! 😛
Ornithologists. “A little bird told me”. Oinologists. “I heard it through the grapevine”. Oecotrophologists. “You are not going to eat that, are you?”.
Oncologists: “IT’S NOT A TOOMOR”
[/Schwarzennegger]
Same ol’ Joycy…still got that weirdly-cute triangular smile and everythin’. ;D
How do we keep divorce lawyers employed
By keeping the various people in the marriage industry employed.
HOW HAVE YOU CHANGED BECKY WE MUST KNOW
“I slept naked with my roommate back at Anderson.”
Undressing is only half of changing.
Well hopefully she changed for the better.
I think Becky is preggers.
Lesbian preggers.
Joe’s still in college in this timeline. Who made the thing that let her get lesbian preggers?
“I work as a mercenary and fight aliens”
“I am an alien and I fight mercenaries.”
That would be a great Walkieverse spinoff. Mary and her group we haven’t met yet get ahold of some Martian equipment and fly off to force-convert the universe. Early on focus shifts to the new protagonists, the resistance on some alien world that are fighting Mary.
Check out Dan Simmons Hyperion/Endemion books if u want a SCARRY sci fi portrait of a MILITANT church in space.
“I am a missionary, and I fight Alan.”
“I’m a leftie now.”
“I killed a man… with THIS thumb!”
“I defrauded a major corporation.”
And where did you get that thumb?
Same place i got all the others. Wanna see my collection?
Commander Umfrumf gives this comment seven thumbs up.
I’ve only ever been able to get two thumbs from the same source. What am I doing wrong?
The other thumb was too powerful.
Why can’t we like these comments!!!
She’s Jocelyn’s boyfriend now.
I’m so thinking that but then two of the people that Joyce is close to in her church would be trans and her head asplode
I’m Actually B-3KI3. I am the 3rd android based on your friend, Becky. Prepare to be assimilated.
You meant ass-stimulated right? 😀
Ass-laminated. it’s very painful, they seal your butt with a hot sheet of clear plastic… 🙂
It’s the only effective therapy against the gaseous discharge associated with late-stage Butts Disease.
Poor Jeph
I am both more than the Becky you knew… and les’.
“I’m actually the genetic love child of you and Becky from the future.”
She needs to make a discrete trip to PP.
‘discreet’. They mean different things. I am done pedanting now.
I hang my head in the homophone haul of shame.
“I do cocaine.”
She watched Seinfield. Try to keep up.
Im pretty sure Becky has been corrupted lol.
So this seems to be a common trope with Joyce?
And it’s all on God’s DVR…
Next to His hand cream. 😀
So if Jesus is on God’s right hand?
Lets just say that the second coming of Jesus isn’t quite what you would have expected. 😀
Among God’s DVR Titles:
“Let He Without Sin Shaft the First Bone”
“The Passion of the Enticed”
“Christ Has Risen! 2: Crown of Thorns”
“This Is My Body (Which Will Be Given Up For You)”
“Flail Mary: Taking Jesus In”
I’m sure there is something to be said about “Turn the other cheek” here.
How about the old classic “Get thee behind me, Satan”?
Or perhaps the old classic, “Taste and See”.
Careful, or you’ll rub someone the wrong way …
OH MY!
He has Risen, or should I say be Roused, then?
He has risen still works actually …
oh, joyce, you
*cue sitcom-style theme song* It’s Joooo-oyce!
She’s so gay.
And she don’t even like boys.
For the reference to that godawful song to work, it’d have to be ‘she doesn’t even like girls’ though 😉
but she does like girls though
she’s super gay
I’m really liking Becky. She seems… normal.
Compared to Joyce, even Head Alien looks normal.
She’s only as normal as her abs.
That sounds like a one-dimensional view.
And sorta accepting. She DID watch Seinfeld that one time.
Soooo, Becky.
What’s your ‘mistake’?
Being friends with Joyce for 13 years.
no wonder she was so willing to give her up before…well good luck with that shit Sarah and Dorothy she’s your problem now.
“friends”. I wouldn’t question the benefits if I were you.
Becky is not a Joyce clone.
Panel 4 Becky reminds me a lot of Rachel, though.
I think she was initially a little like “huh” over Joyce’s suddenly varied friend group and is then relieved and amused that despite this, Joyce remains ever the optimist.
“Same old Joyce…I MUST HAVE HER.”
The more I know of Becky, the less I feel I understand her. This situation can’t continue indefinitely. Sooner or later, her story will out.
But will it be coming out?
This is a Willis comic, so signs point to yes.
Later today cartoon time, sometime next year in our universe?
Maybe her story is just that she’s Joyce’s old friend?…I mean it’s not likely but sometimes things are just that simple.
I could buy that if Sarah wasn’t poking holes in her story ten minutes after meeting her.
It’s prolly something as boring as “aliens killed her parents (but can’t tell Joyce, who got so upset just over her bike getting stolen)”
or she flunked out ALREADY
This. There is something very weird happening that we don’t know of yet.
The tension is unbearable: something seems normal in a Willis comic! The crowd DEMANDS to know what unspeakable horrors this prepares! (I am with the crowd: this is fishy)
And the OT only prohibits Male-on-male hanky-panky, the girls are free to do whatever they want when it’s not their time to service the man of the harem.
That’s a good one, man.
There’s apparently something in Romans about it, actually. It’s still all nonsense mind you, but in their minds, the hardcore Christians do have their bases covered when it comes to defending their “right” to be assholes about it.
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:” – Romans 1:26
That is the verse that is interpreted to be anti-lesbian. I don’t see it.
To me it sounds like someone managed to get Android to work on an iPhone.
The natural use of what?
I assume the natural use of lamb skin. Instead of making gloves they learned to make condoms & dental dams.
If they go “for even their women … against nature” that sounds to me more like being vocal against anal sex rather than lesbianism. Or any kind of kinkiness.
One probably has to view this against the backdrop of current Roman culture which copies a lot of antique Greek culture (in which male homosexuality is the main popular romantic love interest and women are “who cares? Women are just for proliferation and raising kids but culturally uninteresting”), but with the latter having been watered down/supplanted by various conquerors (Macedonia and Rome IIRC). And with Christianity coming in as “Judaism light” with cherry-picked laws. Coattailing on homophobia was actually a reasonably obvious choice.
At any rate, given the times, a female monastery might have earned that kind of bashing, or women daring to read non-trivial texts. The times still very much viewed women as men’s appendices not worth much attention of their own, akin to cattle. It is true that early Christianity was out to change perceptions somewhat, but one stlil has to view such statements against the current historical backdrop of the Romans.
I’d have to look at the original Greek to see whether this “lesbianism” interpretation has any actual chance of holding water.
In questionable content, Fay’s lesbian sister has an affair with Lil Sis from diesel sweeties, who introduces her to “anal plugs”, about which she and Dora compare notes. I don’t know if they had anal plugs in biblical Times: perhaps we can consult Jeph Jacques?
Considering some of the other things that were done in the quest for pleasure/torment in biblical times, I wouldn’t be at all surprised
Again, I’d argue that Romans 1:26 isn’t calling homosexuality a sin. God is using it as a punishment for people who have committed two more obvious sins – blasphemy and idolatry (“They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator…” Romans 1:25).
Punishments are hardly sins – in fact, Christianity considers many forms of punishment cathartic and purifying. In Biblical times, homosexuality could be a nasty curse, for a small population – it means you’d have no kids, and your people would risk extinction. It’s much less of a curse in modern times – in fact, overpopulated parts of the world may consider it a blessing.
Actually, in a stable agricultural society, food and land are scarce, and overpopulation is often several kinds of problem (malnutrition, disease, war, and intra-family tensions). Your family’s genes probably do better by having some uncles and aunts who don’t reproduce, and instead are available to help provide for their nieces and nephews.
You keep saying “Christianity considers punishment purifying,” but I have no idea where you get this from. The closest I can figure is a passage in 2 Corinthians where Paul talks of a(n unspecified) thorn in his flesh that keeps him from becoming growing too conceited, but he also repeatedly begs God to have it removed and ultimately decides that this horrible, awful, terrible “weakness” keeps him strong. Not exactly “purifying.” “Humbling” or perhaps “humiliating” is closer.
If that is referring to homosexuality, it’s a pretty damn homophobic way to regard it.
That is how many (not all, perhaps not even a majority) Biblical scholars read that passage, that Paul was a self-loathing homosexual and as such had even less consideration than most people of that time for women, which made him pretty bad. Paul must have had some redeeming qualities in person, or he would never have been able to hijack the Christian movement, but his writings make him sound like a grade-A asshole.
Was Paul basically a Yeshua-espousing Saul? Saul seems to have been hella heretic Hunter. Paul seems to have been a master at pushing people’s buttons, out maneuvering Yeshua’ s posse, undermining the Temple priests he used to an enforcer for …
Paul is the name Saul of Tarkus took after his road epiphany. They are the same person, Paul just decided he could be more destructive from within the church than outside it…
Right, Saul/Paul, changed sides, did he change persona at all–that is what I was asking: what did his (hysterical) conversion on the road change beside the first letter of his name?
Saul didn’t actually change his name to Paul following his conversion. That’s a popular misconception. He always had both names — Saul was his Jewish name and Paul was his Roman citizen name.
That’s very interesting and makes totes sense. I’ve always been struck by the story of Saul bringing a gentile into the Temple, being arrested by the centurion who brought the goon squad to stop the riot that Saul provoked, and Paul telling the centurion that he had citizenship AFTER the centurion had tortured him, thinking that he was just another Jew. I’ve always imagined that centurion going “oh shit! I hate this gods damned place, why couldn’t I get assigned to Greece or Egypt?”
Do you think that Paul was interested in and more open to gentiles BECAUSE he was a citizen and so had a less insular view of non-Jews than Peter? Is that interpretation reconcilable with his period as THE hunter of Jesus’s followers, which was intra-Jewish stuff–at least, I’ve understood it as him working as an enforcer for The Temple. I’VE realized that I’m unsure how to understand him being both a Jew and a Roman; both extremely anti-Jesus-Movement at first, then pulling the movement in a new direction, opening it to gentiles, even while he still CLAIMED to be Jewish … argh. Complex person it seems.
The Teen Bible I had when I was growing up had a little footnote-for-teens next to that passage suggesting that the thorn was possible homo-ness.
I know a male-on-male sexual position that might describe ( I’m quite proficient at it , too. Although, i dont think I would be mistaken for “a thorn” . )
Although “thorn in the side” is already a metaphor. This could even be a lost idiom in Aramaic. Much of the Bible is filled with lost idioms, that The Jews even, no longer recognize.
For example: from the Schema prayer “bind it on your hand and your forehead” http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm
If Jews, and most have, ( other than Karaites ) lost the idioms behind this, what hope do christians have understanding their own texts, … say , ones which call back that identical yet reverse idiom, in the “mark of the beast” ?
It wouldn’t have been Aramaic. 2 Corinthians was written in Greek to a Greek-speaking audience.
To me it sounds like “Don’t screw robots.”
…Malaya’s safe in THIS universe, at least…
Love solves everything. If it’s not working for you then you don’t have enough of it.
Violence solves everything. If it’s not working for you then you don’t have enough of it.
Sex solves everything. If it’s not wotking for you then you don’t have enough of it.
Pepperoni solves everything. If it’s not working for you then you don’t have enough of it.
Solutions solve everything. If it’s not working then you don’t have enough of it.
undefining unsolves everything. If it’s not unworking, then you don’t have enough of un-it.
C4 solves everything, if it didn’t then you needed to use more of it the first time, or twice as much the second time.
Smartass comments solve everything. If it’s not working then aw fuck it.
Money solves everything. If you don’t agree I’ll give you $1000 to shut the fuck up.
I hereby formally acquiesce to your legally binding proposal to give me one thousand dollars, pending subsequent up-fuck-shutting.
Commencement of same to be instituted upon receipt of the agreed-upon sum.
Thank you for contacting Barfcorp. Barfcorp: We Don’t Even Know How to Stop.
I disagree.
XML solves everything. If it’s not working for you then you don’t have enough of it..
XML solves everything, if it’s not working spellcheck and recompile.
Python solves everything. If it’s not working just use “import solution”.
C solves everything. If it’s not worSEGFAULT
Python solves everything. Now stop that! It’s too silly!
http://xkcd.com/353/
OH THE IRONING!
Pass the popcorns, fellas.
Yeah, you got to do ironing after laundry.
Ironing? but the only pressing will be of the fleshy kind. ^_^
It’s all cool; God made Billie and Ruth super-lesbians so that he could record it all on his DVR for the purposes of. Um. . God works in mysterious ways…
His purposes are ineffable
lol…this has good potential to be a running joke but it just feels so wrong
Don’t you mean “because”?
It is clear that the best jokes are the most offensive/exclusive ones.
“is this 911? Oh God, I am with my best friend hunting and I think I accidentally shot him dead! What shall I ever do?” “Please be calm. Can you make sure he is actually dead?” “— BANG! — Ok, what now?”
I think this actually happened with Dick Cheney.
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_incident
Okay not to beat a dead horse, but neither of them are lesbians.
Fine… They’re bisexuals… Are you happy now?
Uhh kinda? I mean, I don’t think it’s nitpicky to want bi or pan sexual to be referred to as such?
Agreed. Bisexual erasure is part of the problem with Joyce’s words in this strip too. The whole “girls are just experimentation, but all her problems are solved now that she’s in love with a presumed man!” -_-
Every bit as problematic as “they’re really lesbians” and the like, though Joyce’s words ooze with a lot more heteronormativity.
But she actually does believe that and is trying the same thing on Ethan. We don’t even know if she knows bisexuality is a thing. She’s been raised super heteronormatively and doesn’t even really see being gay as a real thing, just a mistake to be fixed.
Yeah. Joyce’s words are definitely problematic, but they come from her character so it’s okay from a writing standpoint she’s saying them, even if they’re a sign she really needs growth.
We as readers know better, they’re bisexual, and should be referred to out-of-universe as such.
…Are they? Billie is, but we’ve not seen Ruth show interest in anyone but Billie as I recall. I may well have missed something though.
I know that Willis drew a picture of the two of them and Danny for Bi Awareness Day, so I think it’s safe to assume they’re both bi, even if we don’t explicitly see Ruth expressing attraction to more than one gender in-comic.
Sexualities have remained the same across the universes so since Ruth was bi in the Walkyverse she’s bi in the Dumbiverse.
What was Becky’s sexuality in the Walkyverse? That could answer some speculation about her here…
Never saw it, sorry.
This whole running joke makes me wonder if Willis (God) has a DVR, and what’s on it…
Joyce, if only you knew how right you are.
But she’s not right about anything.
Shouldn’t that be “She’s in lesbians now”?
(Mary delenda est)
Oh Joyce. I hope you stub all of your toes and sit on a tack.
Why?? I mean I hope that for Mary, but Joyce doesn’t need pain, she just needs more and more aquaintences with the real world…
There is nothing more real in this world than stubbing all your toes and sitting on a tack.
She just outed Billie to a total stranger, not to mention spilled her most painful secrets to aforementioned stranger, super-casual, and then dismissed alcoholism and depression by saying love would cure all of them. Yeah, she’s sheltered and all, but that doesn’t mean she’s not doing something shitty.
Yes, thank you. ^ ^
You forgot her labeling girl-on-girl romance as a “mistake”.
She’s being worse than Danny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TQYeKgbU6M
While I agree with all of this, isn’t it sad that “outing” someone is something we have to be wary of, instead of at best a minor faux pas, in case we aren’t accurate?
Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
In general, you do have a point, but even as a faux pas it’s incredibly rude just to do it to someone instead of letting them do it themselves. I know what you’re saying, why should it matter, sexuality shouldn’t be a big deal, etc, I understand that and I agree 100%. But coming out is still super personal and everyone has their own reasons for doing it or not doing it and their own speed at which they do it. Whether we live in a ‘no big deal’ society or not (which, maybe in some countries we’re inching towards, but in big parts of the world coming out can still result in terrible things, like loss of your job, family, freedom and even life). So. Yeah.
I’m sorry I stepped on my soapbox there for a second as a reply to your comment, it just came over me^^
I agree with you as far as recognizing your own sexuality and coming to terms with it is concerned. It’s actually something I’m still struggling with after almost 25 years, and the details are between me and my psychologist until I do. But once you do, and you have the guts to admit it to someone, you shouldn’t have to be worried about who else hears it. If I ever realize I’m not straight, my only worry will be getting harassed over it (physically and socially, though the latter already happens often enough due to my lack of masculinity that it won’t be new), not having some great personal secret revealed.
Then again, I realize it’s different strokes for different folks, and I apologize if I accidentally offended anyone. To re compensate, I offer you food item of your choice (unless you are a breatharian, in which case I’m really worried about you).
Yeah, but again, that is super different for everyone on an individual, personal basis. I came out to most people in my life 14 years ago, but somehow you never really stop coming out. Every time you meet new people you have to do it again. It gets hella easier over time, but there’s also always the chance someone new you meet is gonna have a negative reaction. And it doesn’t have to be just physical reactions (even though those can happen too of course and yikes, they should never happen to anyone ever), even people saying really ignorant shit can hurt you. Again, super personal for everyone, yadda yadda.
But if the food offer still stands I’m taking vanilla cream donuts, please 😉
That’s certainly the way it should be, but at the same time, it really isn’t.
To a stranger who won’t be around for too long, it’s certainly more invasive than anything else. But people could be hearing that would take offense, and… Well, there’s a reason why Carla was worried about it being a hate crime until she saw everyone’s door had a dick on it and has a single. Harrassment is still a MAJOR issue. And coming out really is a continual process. Like, my parents, my brother, and a fair number of my relatives all know my sexuality. A lot of my friends do as well. But at the same time, I have a grandfather who I love very, very much, who I’m still not out to. Given I’m only vaguely attracted to anyone in the first place and not in a place mentally to have an SO, I may NEVER have to come out to him, and I don’t want to unless I need to. I don’t keep it a secret that I go to my campus’s local LGBTQIA+ group, but I still don’t put on my Facebook profile that I’m attracted to other women because there’s a handful of people whose reactions I’m still scared of who I value enough I’d rather not say if I could. Is that a really shitty attitude to have, especially to people you love? Oh, holy shit is it ever. But at the same time, sometimes you have to choose things like that. You shouldn’t have to, but you do. Because these are people who you do love, very very much, and you want to stay part of your life, and while it’s easy enough to say “people who don’t accept you have no place in your world” it’s really hard to do.
That’s what coming out is, at its core. Being willing to trust that other people will accept who you are unconditionally and that the people who don’t don’t matter to you. Being willing to accept that some people may not react well and that if that happens, you may very well lose that relationship. Being willing to be the one to try and challenge their thoughts. And being in a place where the people who you might have to cut out aren’t in a position to hurt you. Like, there are totally people like Jocelyn, who are out to friends but not their parents because it’s unsafe to be out to their parents. Or even to one parent. Shit’s extremely complicated.
Like, tldr, yeah. Coming out is an incredibly personal, complicated experience and still needs to be 100% on the person who’s coming out’s terms. In an ideal world, it shouldn’t have to be. But since it’s still essentially making yourself vulnerable to who you’re coming out to, it is.
Abso right. We should all be trying to make the world a place where it’s safe and comfortable to come out if you want to, not taking it on ourselves to out people or being careless about it. In grad school I had a friend who shared an apartment with a guy who I thought was just a guy he shared an apartment with. One time we were travelling to a conference together and his apartment mate drove us to the airport. When we got there they had a sort of tussle for a moment: the apt mate wanted a good bye kiss and my friend was evidently hesitant to give it to him in front of me, but eventually did. I went to myself “oh, okay, I had no idea” — zero “gaydar” I guess — “what a drag to have to worry about giving your SO a kiss when you’re leaving on a trip”. My friend and I waited for our flight in the bar with drinks, talking like we normally did. I wondered whether to SAY something to indicate that he was still cool with me OR show it by saying nothing unless he brought it up and just act as I always had–which is what I did. He never did say anything and I never gossiped to anyone BUT he and his SO attended my wedding a few years later and we have a lovely picture of them in our album.
You forgot “belittled the worth of same sex relationships” and “committed bisexual erasure” in that charge as well. -_- Joyce is understandable in doing these things, but not excusable.
Yes, but Walky outed Billie too, to Joyce. Maybe Joyce even got the idea that it’s okay to talk about it from Walky, who’s billie’s childhood friend. (Lord, Lord, Joyce learning social norms from Walky!! Just the idea…
Actually No!
Billies Ex outed Billie , to Walky and Joyce at the same time.
Walkys natural defensive mechanism to the drama-hurricane was smart-assery
Joyce is so naive that she thought Walky was being subtle, when in fact it was telegraphed before he said a word.
Goes to show: I took Joyce’s interpretation to Becky at face value instead of checking the original.
Yes, but… unlike Mary, there’s nothing mean-spirited about what Joyce is doing. Yeah, I know, “intent is not magic” in terms of actions and results, but it counts for character judgement. I can never get on board with the “Joyce is a terrible person!” crowd because I guess I draw a bright line between not *knowing* how your behaviour impacts people and not *caring* that it does. Joyce is a child in need of education and experience, not a villain in need of censure.
Plus, hating on Joyce is like kicking a puppy.
There’s a difference between unintentionally hurting someone and intentionally hurting someone, but in the end, you still are being hurtful. Yeah, I think Joyce is essentially a better person than Mary! But she does need censure. Censure is not punishment. Someone telling her she’s fucking up or getting mad at her for being hurtful is something she needs! And as someone who has been clinically depressed and who falls on the LGBT spectrum, Joyce’s dismissiveness and ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ attitude has absolutely harmed me when aimed at me by real people in my life.
As the saying goes, if you’re not outraged you’re not paying attention AND when othering happens right in front of you you’d better say something because silence works as acceptance. ESPECIALLY you have to challenge your family and friends–friends don’t let friends other people without calling them on it. And sometimes laying into someone is necessary, but quiet and gentle works better with some people. Surely Dorothy is going to have to have more than one talk with Joyce and it will be interesting to see how she does it. Joyce is facing a crisis. She’s going to eventually see that people who she knows are good and who she likes are being hurt by the stones thrown by Mary AND eventually she’ll be told or maybe realize herself that she is just a “kinder gentler” Mary if she doesn’t challenge Mary and accord her friends their full human dignity and her support. (Mary delenda set)
I agree with everything you say here (and my bad for misusing ‘censure’ – sorry). I absolutely don’t mean to excuse Joyce; for some reason, the distinction between “That’s horrible” and “You’re horrible” just gets to me.
Except for Mary. Mary is horrible and can DIAF, kthxbye. 😉
thinking about it, I think NOBODY would be surprised if everyone found out that Billies doing the RA
“Oh, you mean that girl who specifically picks on that one girl. Duh, I saw it coming. I went to elementary school”
so elementary school is just filled with potential lesbians ?
Elementary schools are a traditional hatching ground for lesbian egg clutches, yes. Elementary schools and summer camps
Not sure if want…
My mind’s tellin me yes, and my body, my body’s tellin me yeah-ah-ah-ah!
There’s yes-yes in your ayes, but there’s no-nos on your face.
It’s a definite risk factor. Don’t all lesbians go to elementary school?
I’m sure some are home schooled.
Wasn’t Willis home schooled? What are you implying?
Well, Willis DID marry a woman. So clearly he’s a lesbian.
Doesn’t “lesbian” mean sexual attraction to women/love for a woman/women? That’s why Scott told Ramona that he was in lesbians with her, isn’t it?
Ah, but Willis presumably has male organs in spite of being attracted to women, so he is a transsexual lesbian. And as long as he is not planning on doing anything about having his male sex organs fixed, he is a queer transsexual lesbian.
The stuff some people are into…
So you’re saying there can’t be cis straight male lesbians? The things one learns on the internets! 🙂
Only if they want to be added to a sex offender’s list.
and the males are all potential stockers…I just painted a real fucked up alternative universe, you know what screw it led it ride its not the most screw’d up thing I’ve ever said.
stalker
Well, there are female stalkers and surely some of them are lesbians
Stockers? Like, they make sure there is sufficient inventory for the all the shelves?
They eventually end up working at Shortpacked!
I don’t get this?
I am pretty sure they’re talking about elementary school-age lesbians in elementary school, not adut ones^^
I mean, so much as any school is. Potential/current lesbians and bisexuals and pansexuals and heterosexuals (I guess *sigh*)
So it’s worse than we thought and all the elementary schools should be closed down?
I kissed my first girl in kindergarten, so in my experience, yes.
The way some of you people talk about the inevitablity of lesbianism/bisexuality, maternity wards are hatching grounds for potential lesbians.
Considering people are born gay/straight/ bi, this is true.
He was a football head, she had a monobrow
Can it be any more obvious
When did Walky imply she did “girl-on-girl hanky-panky”? Unfortunately I can’t keep this entire comic in my memory at once.
I think when they all ran into billies old highschool friend when they were getting food.
Yeah I was wondering that too… I don’t recall Walky implying that.
“I guess being a drama hurricane can be sexually transmitted.”
Huh… must have missed that one o.o
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/dramahurricane/
I predict that one of two things is true:
1.) Becky has already done pre-marital hanky-panky.
2.) Becky is lez for Joyce.
Either way, mayhem will ensue. Actually, number 2 will be really interesting if her and Joyce actually do have sex. Joyce looks like a screamer to me, and her first time should be ear-shattering.
That Sarah avatar fits that comment very well.
That last part is actually pretty uncomfortable for some reason. Joyce is clearly not in a position to have sex any time soon – she’s overrunning with hormones, is recovering from near-rape, and is still incredibly confused with her stances on sex and sexuality.
Plus sexualizing DoA Joyce is just kind of weird.
Yeah.
I predict that two of those statements are true.
IN THE FACE.
Or she and Joyce have done premarital hanky-panky together in the past, and Joyce never realised that it counted. (Fine, less than likely. but the idea appeals to my sense of humour.)
I’m pretty sure that Joyce will be a screamer when getting involved in a lesbian sex act but likely not for the reason you think.
Really? ’cause I thought “in terror at the wrath of god”
Ivy I agree with you 100%. People can be ‘sheltered’ and still understand the word decency.
Joyce has none whatsoever when it comes to treating ‘non-Joyce thinkers’, like real people.
What she did, dumping those statements about Billie is nothing short of shitty. Added to her introductions of her dorm neighbors in the same light.
Joyce is an insensitive clod.
Playing devil’s advocate, Becky is her best friend. Based on how close they seem to be, they probably shared their opinions and gossip about everything with each other. Even the ones that would get you slapped in public.
Not saying it makes it any better, especially in an open area like this, but I’m less offended that she’s saying it to Becky than if she were saying this to Sarah, for instance.
Idk, I don’t really care how close someone is to the person they out me to.
Joyce…a bright, shining light in the universe…and one of the dimmer bulbs in God’s chandelier.
Marvelous turn of phrase. *applauds*
Wait, Joyce did pick up on that?
Although it wasn’t so much an implication as a statement.
I honestly didn’t pick up on it until I read the comments, so, uh, good on her I guess.
And oh yeah, I know, I know. She is oh so cute, and she has had a terrible life because of her parents scarring her poor little self. She’s suffered.
So have we all, in one way or another.
You get over it, or you become Joyce.
Yeah I know, she is making strides to growing up, maturing, et.
Joyce just makes me so aggressive sometimes, holy crap. Sorry, but she just does. It’s just frustrating to watch and every time we think she’s made some progress she says something like this and it just friggin’ does my head in.
Had it even been two months since the comic started? It took me more than two years to get rid of most of my wrong ideas about how the world works, I still have a few of them crop up from time to time, and I wasn’t even religious or a fundie.
Yes, in-comic time moves like molasses, but that doesn’t really change my frustration as a reader for whom it has been years^^
Also, other characters have gone through some pretty significant changes and developments in this same time span, so why shouldn’t Joyce?
Because coming of age is a personal experience that can’t be rushed?
No, of course not. I’m not saying I expect Joyce to have done a complete 180 by tomorrow. All I’m saying is that it’s frustrating to watch. For me. As a reader. Joyce the character can take all the time she needs and me the reader is just gonna have to deal with it. I just replied to your comment re: the time that has passed in-comic. Sure it’s a short time span, but it’s also not 5 minutes. Things *can* change. Obviously for Joyce it’s becoming increasingly clear that the whole changing thing is gonna take a whole goddamn long-ass time xD
Willis does say that Joyce is playing the part of Willis in this universe and look how he changed, however long it took. Joyce does a lot of messed up things but she’s suffering SERIOUS cognitive dissonance: she’s trying to reconcile her heartfelt attraction to people whose goodness she feels experientially with the messed up dogma she was inculcated with for her whole life AND she’s totes UN-worldly because she lived in social isolation till 2 months ago. She is dangerous,but let’s be charitable–she couldnt be any different than she is right now.
For Joyce it’s probably gonna take a relatively short time. It’s the readers that you should be worried about.
They’re still working the week after Parent’s weekend, I think it’s the Friday after. So we should be seeing Becky for the next several months as the Willis makes his way through the weekend.
I think the question we must ask ourselves is “What was Becky’s role in the Walkyverse?” If we can follow that, then we should be able to uncover her secret, should she have one in the first place
Becky existed in the Walkyverse to be a fairly level headed Christian and Joyce’s only “normal” female friend, and member of the Sal fanclub.
A club Joyce definitely wasn’t part of !
I don’t remember Becky existing in the Walkyverse at all?
Suddenly Becky’s “don’t let anyone change you” takes on a slightly different meaning.
Oh my. I just realized it. I feel like that monkey from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
Oh… Crap. I couldn’t get this out of my head, wondering what you might have realized, and…I think I just did. If that’s the case…it explains a lot, and much of the analysis (and anti-Joyce anger) here will be painfully off the mark.
Something’s been forgotten about. I don’t know if I want to be right…
Oh – I got it!
*goes back and checks the tags*
… I don’t got it.
*develops alternative theory*
To put things in perspective, how long have they been at the university by this point?
If I have the timeline correct, this is approaching the end of Week 5. I think this is the Friday after Parent’s weekend.
Joyce manages to be accepting in the most intolerant and judgmental way possible. Fairly standard response from the “nice” evangelicals I grew up around.
“Dammit. Now I know that I can’t tell Joyce of my undying love for her and my burning desire to let my tongue go crazy on her clitoris!”
If there is such a thing as a “pure heart”, Joyce is close to having one. And she’s still a complete bongo in this situation. There is a lesson here.
“All the evils of the world? You need to bring three times as much if you wish to affect me, mongrel!”
To be fair to Joyce, she’s talking to Becky, someone she’d obviously trust not to do anything “bad” with that information; so she’s really just being her old naive self here. What she did a few strips back, going to Dorothy about Walky and Billie, was a lot more messed up.
Gah! Becky, stop being mysterious! >_> What’s your deal?
Simple, she’s a Ginger so neither God Nor Satan can threaten the Soul she doesn’t have, so she was able to uncover all the secrets of the universe, become immortal and is now friends with Joyce because most other people are depressing and boring.
She’s just waiting for the right moment to break the police box and the sonic screwdriver out to her 😀
Oh, she’s gonna be using the Sonic Screwdriver on Joyce, all right.
…or so we hope ^^
We need to get back to Ethan/Danny A.S.A.P. My babies can’t wait.
It just occurred to me, Billie and Ruth could easily pull Mary’s blackmail material out from under her if Billie was relocated to one of the other dorms on campus.
If Ruth wasn’t her RA, they could date without any problems, and I doubt it would be difficult to piece together a half decent reason for the higher-ups to have Billie moved. Billie and Ruth have been fighting since day 1, and Ruth has personal reasons to want to avoid dealing with a girl with a DUI, and if nothing else I’m sure Sal would be willing to corroborate and pretend she and Billie have had problems rooming with each other. And the dorm management would probably look the other way on what’s already happened between them, given that the issue is quickly dealt with, as they’d rather not go through the hassle of replacing an RA.
And honestly, it might be better for them anyhow, since Ruth has a history of abusing her RA-ly powers where Billie is concerned.
No, really, I’m on to something with this pet theory.
Marcie and Malaya room together in another wing. Marcie agrees to swap rooming assignments with Billie so she can escape and room with Sal. Billie and Malaya try to kill each other 24-7.
Fun times for everyone.
I like this theory. Except Billie would intimidate Malaya into submission within a week, and the only further reference we’d see to Malaya and Billie being roommates is Malaya repeatedly telling the people she hangs out with that her roommate is “a scary mean bongo.” Either way though, win-win.
I’d be down for intimidated Malaya! Alternatively, Malaya sucks up because Billie’s fake ID is about as legit as fake IDs come. Yeah, they’d be a fun/horrible duo in any case.
But it is a webcomic about people making terrible choices tho, so I’m not sure it will occur to anyone in the cast that they could potentially solve this issue by going through the system instead of trying to zig-zag around it.
Dumbing of Age: It’s not called “Smarting of Age”
Yeah, because Malaya is super intimidated by people. I don’t know where people get their Malaya impressions but the Walkyverse Malaya got in a knife fight with a sentient alien enhanced super car and spent a few years harassing a super powered alien fighting coworker. THIS version of her attacked Amazi-Girl without hesitation and even recovered from the hit she took very quickly.
Malaya is not a pushover people.
She not only got in a knife fight with a robot car, she fought it to a draw. (And now they’re dating.)
This works out so well! First off, both Sal and Marcie have vastly improved their roommates; they are already pretty much BFFs. Second, Malaya will be mostly left alone, since her official roommate, Billie, will be spending most of her time with Ruth. Billie and Ruth can then get lovey without fear of the school’s administrative ire. Wins all around, ISTM. Except maybe for Mary ….
Fuck Mary!
Okay, I am totally sold on this now. Which means Willis needs to make this happen except have it blow-up spectacularly. You know that thing in sci-fi where someone has pheromones that make people around them become angry towards them. Like that, except with Billie and Malaya. The whole plan looks like it is going to work out, but Malaya finally meets Billie and takes an instant and inexplicable dislike towards her, which builds to the point that Malaya joins forces with Mary when she figures out what is going on. The two recruit a third woman from the wing, someone who is bored and doesn’t like Ruth, and suddenly there is a conspiracy arrayed against Billie and Ruth. Then things escalate…
A webcomic of just Becky and Joyce would be strange and terrifying.
Coming soon to a Slipshine near you!
((That was a joke Mr. Willis please don’t hurt me.))
Wear it like a haaaat!
I’m now picturing Becky’s reaction when she meets Dorothy and Walky.
Joyce: ‘And this is my new bestie, Dorothy! And her stupid boyfriend!’
Walky: ‘Yeah, Joyce really just wants to smother herself in my girlfriend’s crotch.’
Becky: ‘But… but… I’ve been hoping she’d do that to ME for years! You bongo, Dorothy!’
They shall fight o the death in the jello pool.
Totes jello!
Becky really hasn’t been giving much out in conversation at the minute. The more I see her the more I keep thinking BECKY WHAT IS YOUR DEAL.
She is associating with Joyce, collecting pressure material and endearing herself to her.
Clearly, she is going to ask her for one or more favors.
Is Becky happy that Joyce is still herself or is she disappointed by that she didn’t change much by interaction with others there as her prime morals go?
I can’t decide yet, that last panel could be either taken as a bit sarcastic reply or maybe not…
I caught that too. She smiles, but it isn’t clear if she agrees with Joyce. I foresee Joyce’s house-of-cards-of-assumptions falling majestically before this arc is through. A major one being that Becky is the same person she remembers (or even was ever truly the person Joyce thought she was).
I think it’s both. Joyce is one of the most joyful, compassionate, and generous people you could imagine, and I can get not wanting to see your best friend lose their innocence.
You know, Joyce has become my favorite character in this comic. Not my favorite person, but my favorite character. She’s a genuinely good, warm hearted person, who’s finding her world may not be quite as simple as she was taught. I especially like the crisis of faith she’s going through, dealing with the fact that her friends can be happy, despite not living the life she was taught is the only way to true joy.
It will be interesting to see if she loses her faith, or can reconcile it with the idea that her upbringing may not have taught her everything she needs to know about life. The subtleties of her evolution have taken what could have been a simple story of someone discovering she’s wrong about life, and instead created a character arc of genuine depth and self discovery, where her own compassion, and genuinely good nature, are what enable her to challenge her own assumptions about what is wrong or right. Where hopefully, she won’t abandon all the good things about her faith, just because she’s questioning a part of it.
Teh dramatic ironies!
I missed that being implied by Walky. When did that happen?
When they ran into Alice. Last panel Joyce there does actually look like she caught the implication. Kind of surprising, but I guess she’s putting together Walky’s comment with the obvious ex-girlfriends drama she just witnessed and remembering the “everyone tries it out eventually” comment Billie made to her earlier that’s quoted in the hovertext.
I say to you @damnyouwillis, “Good Grief!”
Hello. Does this imply a “dark” side to Becky henceforth forgiven by Joyce? I think perhaps it does!
I love the hovertext in this one. First Peanuts dialog ever, spoken by Shermy of all people.
I wonder how long it’ll take Joyce to connect “Billie doesn’t necessarily just like boys” and “I ASSUMED that she was in love with a boy but nobody ever actually said that”.
Though I guess this is an assumption on my part that Joyce would accept same-sex love as a thing, rather than just same-sex hanky-panky-hell-going. Only God’s light can transform sinful lust into pure love, and your front parts have to fit together for that. That’s why they call it Holey Matchrimony.
I’m reasonably certain Joyce would never think same-sex love exists and that people in a same-sex relationship could be happy. I’m guessing homosexuality has been explained to her as all about sex and that gay people are deeply unhappy.
That’s actually a very real thing. I remember Orson Scott Card (himself a religious homophobe) was heavily criticized by his own community for portraying homosexuals as happy in their relationships.
A lot of people think homosexuals don’t even enjoy being homosexual, which is weird because most of the those people also think it’s a choice.
Keeping in mind that I am not speaking from experience and that I don’t agree with the following (assumed) opinion, I imagine that said people imagine homosexuality as they do other vices. You don’t generally think of addicts as being happy with themselves. And if they are, they are willfully ignorant/in denial, etc.
Additionally, her prime example is largely unhappy with himself.
I have a serious question. Why does Willis use “is a Christian” solely as a character flaw?
I’m a lapsed Catholic, for crying out loud, and that offends me. Bible-thumping young-earth Creationism isn’t the only kind of Christianity out there. I realize he grew up in that, but I feel like he’s reliving that again and again through his characters.
But it truly is offensive. It seems prejudiced. I know many very intelligent, and very kind people around me who are devout Christians. And I’m in engineering.
P.S. No, devout does not mean literalist.
Leo’s a great guy until he says some sanctimonious
Oops, I forgot to finish the thought about Leo.
Leo’s a great guy. He’s a little confused about some things, but he at least recognizes that he doesn’t understand some things about Leslie. He’s a very good person UNTIL HE SAYS SOME SANCTIMONIOUS CHRISTIAN THING and we end that scene on a “nope, he’s a douche” note.
Why?
Billie’s a Christian. Danny most likely is as well. Sierra definitely is (well, she’s Mormon), and she’s always portrayed in a positive light. Amber is, and in the other universe we’ve seen Robin as a Christian (albeit a loose one) whose faith is always portrayed reasonably. Depending on the reveal coming up, Becky might be as well. And in the Walkyverse, Joyce eventually managed to balance faith with what she saw in the universe around her and was shown in an entirely positive light. Not such a stretch to guess this Joyce might eventually come around to it as well. It doesn’t always come up with such characters, but Robin and Amber in particular were fully capable of saying “Hey, I believe in Jesus as the messiah” and not being shown negatively for it.
The problem isn’t having faith, it’s using that faith to justify beliefs like homosexuality being wrong or that God has given you this wealth so it’s okay to hoard it. Things that concretely hurt other people, in some cases run opposite to what was actually taught, and are often used in such a way that you do come off as a major douche. And given Willis’s predominate experience with religion WAS Bible-thumping fundamentalist young-earth creationist and it SEVERELY fucked his brain up (Trust me, I had a different upbringing but a similar relationship to religion, and it really does fuck you up), it’s gonna affect him. Especially in wanting to point out that, hey, a lot of these beliefs GENUINELY AREN’T OKAY. Like, even this is Joyce grappling with that upbringing and still being portrayed positively. “She’s in love so it’s all okay!” isn’t “ha ha, look at the Christian!”, it’s “Oh, Joyce, you are extremely naive and inexperienced with the world”.
Agatha’s the Mormon. Sierra goes to the same church Joyce and Mary do. Both of them are among the nicest people in the comic.
But, yeah, what you said.
Also, in groups – almost any group – it’s the assholes who are the loudest and who stand out and tend to become the visible face of the group. And that applies to both comic strips and reality. Just like it’s easy to overlook the good people leading quiet Christian lives when there’s assholes using God as an excuse to deny their neighbors basic human rights on TV every day, it’s easy to overlook the Agathas and Sierras when the Marys are yelling at you.
Ah, thanks. Forgot! And oh, totally yes. Again, why I’m off organized religion in general. There are perfectly sweet, wonderful, virtuous people I know who got awesome things out of it. Much of my family included. (The reason I’m not soured on Christianity as a whole is totally because of my great-grandparents, who were two of the most amazingly good people I’ve ever known.) But it didn’t work for me, and I genuinely cannot stand the people who use it to be, well, Mary. My mom’s still a faithful person, and I still consider myself culturally from the church she’s from even if I’ve never been baptized and don’t believe anymore,* but the sanctimonious ones and a general lack of time mean she doesn’t really attend church anymore.
* It’s an Anabaptist church.
The serious answer is that I don’t and that you’re succumbing to confirmation bias.
No, no, I’m sure that he made a spread sheet into which he entered all of your characters, their religious affiliations/orientations, and an adequate, random sample of how you’ve portrayed them — positive/neutral/negative — in all of your different series. After all, Dr Worm is an engineer and surely used a proper methodology to reach his sweeping, unqualified conclusions about your unrelenting denigration of all devout people. Have you actually read your own work?
Really, trying to confuse the issue with scientific methodology makes you worse than that comic of satanic porn, The Devil’s Panties; at least that Breeden woman is open about her devil worship.
Middle panel shows Joyce and Mary aren’t too different.
I’d say it illustrates the biggest difference between them. Joyce assumes that everyone is a good person until proven otherwise, and it takes a lot to prove otherwise. Mary assumes that everyone is a bad person, and I’m not sure there’s any proving otherwise.
I just realized Billie’s not wearing her Dragon’s gold and blue colors.
I was wondering why Billie seemed evasive, twice now, on the laundry topic. I think that basket contains her old cheerleader outfits and she’s going to throw them out. Clean break, new beginnings, that sort of thing.
Becky is smarter than her upbringing, it seems.
Also, I was offline for a few days, but I TOTALLY called her being a run away. Go back and look. I said it when she showed up.
Calling now that she’s questioning religion.
Or maybe buddhist, since Willis hasn’t added any buddhists yet. (To my knowledge, might be derping.)
I’d be interested in seeing a observant non-Christian main character.
Becky is supes pregnant.
BECKYYYY i cannot get a read on you!!
i like you??? i think??? you seem fine what is LURKING IN THE SHADOWS OF YOUR PAST
Now watch the other shoe drop as Becky drops a bombshell on Joyce.
OH GOD IS THE CHAPTER TITLE ABOUT BECKY AND JOYCE I JUST REALIZED
Something is totes up with Becky. When Joyce learned of all the rampant homosexuality and promiscuity running around, she had a mini-meltdown, and she was supposed to be the best socialized kid in her church group. Meanwhile, Becky is all “Oh, that’s cool, whatevs” not caring at all. Something is up. WAY up.
Just because Joyce was the best socialized doesn’t mean she is the most prepared. Joyce was okay at first until she started paying attention to what was around her and realized she was surrounded my all she was taught to be against. At this point Becky is being introduced to these people for the first time and only has info on Billie, whose association with Joyce she questioned.
Beyond “oh, that’s cool, whatevs.” Look at that reaction. That’s not “oh, whatevs,” that’s “wait, you aren’t freaked by that” followed up by… “Ah, you’re just ignoring it, got it.”
I’m calling it now. Becky’s LGBI. That’s why she’s not at her Christian College.
Weegee!! I got my Kickstarter books today — all three of ’em, complete with doodles and a free bookmark!!
Thanks, Willis.
*Wiigii
I feel like Becky is hiding something… other than what she was hiding from Sarah, anyway.
But Joyce is nothing like Charlie Brown, except in her fashion choices.
I thought it was Becky who told Joyce to “never change”…
In my experience that can put a lot of pressure on a person too. Even if Joyce felt otherwise, I wouldn’t expect her to necessarily tell Becky and jeopardize their friendship. I mean… I don’t see Becky saying otherwise.
Yoiu know, re-reading Joyce’s comment here, AFTER becky’s revelation kinda hurt ^^;
You hate Charlie Brown? Huh, now I’ve met TWO people…