Too true. For good comedy, come down to my bar at 14:30 hours; the Pyrobots are doing a stand-up act. I’ve heard them practice, and they are on fire. Get it? Pyrobots? On fire? Hello? Is this thing on?
Ethan was already in on the secret. Danny talked around it long enough to determine with reasonable certainty that Ethan was already in on the secret before dropping the charade. Having people who know able to openly discuss and coordinate efforts to help Amber has got to be a good thing. I’m not a big fan of Danny, but I’m not seeing that this is a fuckup on his part.
They just need to get Dorothy and Dina – and A-G herself – on the team now.
All male characters need more interaction. Don’t get me wrong, Willis’s female characters are some of the best I’ve seen written by a male author, but now that he himself has pointed out how the comic tends to fail at the reverse Bechdel test, I’m kinda hoping he does something about it.
No, he joked about it failing the reverse Bechdel Test *once*. It doesn’t get anywhere near constantly failing, even though the comic is actually about relationships (and so even a group of same-sex characters are likely to be talking about some opposite-sex character at some point). I’m certainly not seeing the lack of characterization among the males that made the arbitrary distinction of the BT a thing.
Also, I have to admit that given how many TV shows *do* fail at the actual and not the reverse Bechdel test, I kind of find it refreshing sometimes to see something that’s written so close to the vest that it actually *does* sometimes violate the reverse version. Like, one of my favorite shows ever is Gilmore Girls, which was on for I think 7 seasons and I’m not altogether sure it ever passed the reverse test. You know what? It was still a great show and the emphasis on women didn’t diminish it in the least.
Oh, I’m not saying an emphasis on female characters makes a work of fiction any less good (speaking of which, I should really start watching the second season of Orange is the New Black), but Dumbing of Age does show a noticeable decline in male roles compared to Willis’s previous comics.
I probably won’t. This comic is about Joyce and her neighbors, who are girls. Guys are going to be secondary characters by default. And that’s fine by me.
I mean, they’ll get characterization as things go along, but I certainly don’t see it as a failing.
I sometimes forget that Joyce is supposed to be the protagonist. But I’ve been following this since nearly the beginnning and I’ve never gone back and reread everything; maybe it’s time to do that and see if she comes off as the main character.
I don’t really think so. It’s an ensemble cast, though some members of the ensemble are clearly more central and important than others. Joyce is first among those, and has by a fair margin the most appearances, but there are other characters who have their own things going on that involve Joyce only tangentially, if at all.
(Billie/Ruth that I don’t think Joyce is even aware of, the whole Amber/Amazi-Girl/Danny/Sal/Blaine/Ethan/Dorothy clusterfuck that’s been taking up a lot of comic time lately, and which Joyce only touches around the edges, Sal/Jason that Joyce kicked off but hasn’t been involved in since, the Sal/Walky/Linda/Charles conflict which Joyce has seen bits and pieces of, but I don’t think she had any idea what she was looking at…)
Personal opinion time: Early in the comic, she does come off as the main character, quite strongly. Past the party arc though, she wanes, comes back strong with the Ethanga(y)te arc, and then wanes again and has felt more like a strong side character than a main character.
She totally steals the scene when she shows up, but she hasn’t had a lot of plot relevance lately.
Joyce, Amber and Billie are definitely main characters, but I’ve felt that Walky has shone more as a main character more than Dorothy. Maybe it’s because he interacts with more of the cast.
I also felt Danny was more of a main character early on, but maybe that’s waned in favour of Amber lately.
Really? I’ve… honestly been reading Walky as mainly a romantic interest kinda deal for Dorothy rather than being more under the spotlight than she is. I mean, sure, he’s had a tiny bit of growth in the comic so far… but mostly he’s served to support her as a character. He breaks her out of her hermitish studying ways so she can stay in the thick of things, but in general he’s either lounging around eating nuggets and watching cartoons, or going with her to hang out with her friends, helping her chase down Amazi-girl, or otherwise spending time with her. He doesn’t really go out and face challenges of his own. He might be getting his own Growing Up moment in the future as he comes to understand his sister further- but even so, that’s just him coming to understand, and hopefully support, a female character as she deals with her development- it’s not his plot line.
Walky’s development so far has been pretty much centered around Dorothy- realizing that maybe hanging out with girls CAN be more fun than eternal bachelorhood, realizing that he does kinda care what other people think in some circumstances, realizing that sometimes he has to put in effort to get what he wants. Dorothy’s learned and grown from her relationship with Walky, yeah, but also through her friendship with Joyce, from being challenged by Roz, from being thrown into a few tense situations with Danny, through the aftermath of the party, and by finding out about Amber. It’s subjective, obvs, but I… definitely see Dorothy as a central character, and Walky as way more if a supporting role.
Danny, I think does serve as a main character- although I agree with you- since being sucked into Amber’s black hole of Issues, the challenges he’s facing are almost entirely tied up in supporting a female castmember. Ethan and Danny are probably the male characters with the most development in the story so far (eh, Walky competes with them, but again, he hasn’t really faced any sort of character-defining challenge yet). They each have a male best friend who is astonishingly one-note and completely unhelpful, and the moment they talk to each other for longer than two or three sentences, they’re focusing on Amber. It’s interesting; I have noticed, before, how the lady characters tend to be the main focus of the comic and the focus of the important, tense, dramatic storylines, while the boys tend to be more sidelined and the focus of the romantic storylines, but I guess I didn’t realize it was intentional. =p
Nonetheless, I do hope Ethan and Danny can develop some sort of friendship that doesn’t always involve Amber- not because the men have to be at the center of every story ever, but because I like Ethan despite all his attempts at self-saboutage, and I think having someone completely, blindly blunt and honest to tell him when he’s being an idiot would be good for him. And poor Danny needs a friend who isn’t constantly trying to Joe everything and who doesn’t have more problems than actual human cells in her body.
That is fine by me, as well. Please never change that. Dudes get so much airtime everywhere, all the time. It gets annoying to see comments asking for more of that in female-centered media. I am looking at you, Bronies.
Passing and failing the (actual) Bechtel Test doesn’t mean anything about the quality of whatever you’re looking at. All the test is meant for is to show a trend in our culture’s media, not to set any standards. That being said, the “reverse Bechtel Test” Willis brought up can not be used as anything but a joke because it doesn’t even serve the purpose of cultural examination that the Bechtel Test is supposed to be used for. 99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” with flying colors while at least 90% of that media fails the actual test miserably, therefore talking about how any single piece of media portrays its male characters becomes a non-issue when looking at how men are portrayed in the rest of the media in the culture.
No, that’s a logical fallacy. If we were talking about say a racism, the fact that the vast majority of our society condemns racism does not mean that it doesn’t matter if a particular piece of media supports it. It’s still wrong.
Now the Bechdel test itself is pretty silly, when you consider how often girls sit around and talk about guys. Women tend to enjoy media aimed at relationship drama, more so than men. Why is this? I’m sure its partially social conditioning and partially brain chemistry. Anyway female characters written by both women and men often talk about men a lot. It’s just the normal relationship for most of us. Guys talk about women as well, but rarely want to see media about ourselves talking about women. Again, I’m sure both social conditioning and brain chemistry are involved. Now I’m just rambling…
Note that for any work not to pass the Bechdel test in either direction is not the same as for it to support sexism.
The whole situation is a symptom of sexism, yes, and quite probably an indirect cause of sustaining society’s sexism, by normalising perceived differences between genders. (See the second paragraph of your reply.)
The problem is that the Bechdel Test doesn’t actually indicate whether a film (or other work) is Feminist, let alone say anything about the quality of the work. The “Twilight” movies pass the Test, but they are very much anti-Feminist films (and they are of poor quality), while “Casablanca” fails the Test, despite being considered one of the best movies of its era (if not all time).
What the Test is useful for is acting as a single indicator that there may be sexist content in a work. But it’s still only one indicator, and you would need to examine other aspects of the work as well.
Discussed in the comic during the Bechdel Test arc, but yeah you’re right.
My point was that if, say, 10% of movies pass the Bechdel Test, and 90% pass the Reverse Bechdel Test, that says something about society, if not those movies.
Yeah, but it doesn’t seem like that is true though. I haven’t found much info on the reverse test, but from what I did find it seems it’s pretty much the same percentage: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=703126 Which is to be expected really, and it doesn’t say anything about society and gender roles, it DOES say that romance has always been one of the main factors in story telling, meaning that a lot of conversations in stories would be about the opposite sex. Also, since about half of the population is the opposite sex of yourself, the distribution should also even out logically.
It’s by the existence of the Reverse Bechdel test, and the disparity of the results between it and the Bechdel Test, that the Bechdel test gains its significance. If you couldn’t state that “99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” ” then you wouldn’t be able to illustrate how “90% of that media fails the actual test miserably” is bad.
So, yes, the Reverse Bechdel test is just as significant as the Bechdel test — you can’t illustrate what it means for a segment of society to be marginalized and underprivileged, if you can’t show what it means for a segment of society to *not* be such.
I’m perfectly in agreement with you however that both tests are only useful in illustrating societal trends, not in judging individual works.
“If you couldn’t state that “99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” … And you can’t, that’s why it fails to be significant. Just look at the examples I linked to in my post above, and that was just from a quick google. I would guess most romance movies, for instance, would fail both tests, and there are a LOT of romance movies out there.
She, uh, had a “Parent Teacher Conference” that didn’t end well. Her dad was very unhappy with her “Academic Performance”. She’s worried it will be mentioned in the “School Newspaper”.
“Her current student uniform doesn’t match the standards of the dress of her morning classes, and Professor P.D. Five-O is gonna give her some serious detention time if he catches her in it.”
I feel like it would make more sense to be Amber to be like Samus. AmaziGirl would be like Armored Samus and Amber would be like Zero Suit Samus, and she summons attacks from various PC, console, and handheld games.
Her shield/dodge would be called Introversion, where she says “I have a raid.” and briefly blinks out of existence.
All of her specials would be explaining how inaccurate to real dinosaurs she is. For her Final Smash she dons feathers and is so adorable it gives people heart attacks.
“Hey, look, that kid who was changing his pants before the Asian girl with the rack walked in on him is making out with the girl who was practicing her speechifying face when she thought no one could see her.”
“Pajama pants kid is making out with Amazi-Girl?”
“I keep telling you, that’s not Amazi-Girl. She’s blonde and wears glasses.”
“Clark Kent wears glasses! And it could be a wig.”
Really!? I thought you were talking about a night class on phycology….in other new sony E3 announcements sucked this year the only the games worth remembering was Batman Arkham knight and MK 10
He and Ethan may actually be able to help Amber now that they both have acknowledged that they know her secret. And maybe fill in each other with information that can help them help her.
Now, get Sarah in on it, and Amber will have a decent posse.
Both Danny and Ethan genuinely care about Amber and know her enough to help her. I’m very glad that they talk and can join forces.
…of course there is every chance that their timing coinciding with Amber at least temporary giving Amazigirl a rest will explode spectacularly. But why would anything work smoothly for anyone in this comic?
Well they’re leaving from their dorm buildings, so yes. Most of the dorms on my school’s campus have between 8 and 10 floors, and most people on floors 4 and up generally take the elevator.
US law — specifically, the Americans with Disabilities Act — requires elevators, ramps, doorways no less than 36″ wide (and hallways no less than 48″ wide), handrails and washbasins at a specific height, and other architectural and design accommodations to make sure the building is accessible to people in wheelchairs or suffering other physical handicaps.
Based on the above alt-text, Mr. Willis, I guess you won’t be using any Celtic interwoven traceries or similar complex patterns anytime soon. Or not unless they can be cut & pasted.
Willis has demonstrated that he’ll do whatever the heck is necessary to place the scene where he feels like placing it. That doesn’t stop drawing accurate buildings and landscaping from being a lot of work.
I think the interesting question is whether Amber is the secret identity or Amazi-Girl. One might argue they’re both real but if you have to choose, Amazi-Girl is Amber’s strength and confidence as a woman while Amber is who Blaine tried to make her into–the meek submissive girl he could control. Now, Bill is a bad source for Superman but his statement about it in Kill Bill might reflect Amber/Amazi-Girl’s duality.
Here’s the problem with Bill’s thesis: Kal-El may have been born (or post-Crisis, conceived) on Krypton, but he did not grow up there. He grew up as Clark Kent in Kansas. He doesn’t view humans as alien, because he views himself as human. The reason Bill attributes this view to Superman, is that Bill is basically Lex Luthor, unable to comprehend altruism.
Unlike his colleague J’onn J’onzz, who left Mars as an adult and does view humans as aliens, Superman views himself as human, and he sees Clark Kent as the “real” version of himself. If so, why the elaborate deceptions he pulled during the Silver Age? Because it was the Silver Age, and as Linkara says, we don’t talk about the Silver Age!
Seriously, we don’t talk about the Silver Age! Not the time Jimmy Olsen became a werewolf, or the Batman of Zuhr-En-Ahrr, or Lois Lane’s various attempts to trick Superman into marrying her, or the time Jimmy Olsen was turned into a turtle-like Kaiju, or Batman’s rainbow costume. We especially do not discuss the Joker’s “boner”. Got it? Good.
Amber is neither meek nor submissive; she was the one who flipped a table, who stabbed Sal, who told off and beat up Blaine. Amazi-Girl isn’t stronger than Amber; she’s just more controlled.
I would actually argue that Amber’s the one who always resorts to violence – and disproportionate violence, at that – because she’s weaker than Amazi-Girl. Amazi-Girl has measured and controlled responses; Amber tries to run or hide, and, failing that, lashes out like a cornered animal.
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Thank God.
You’re welcome.
I came here for the night class puns
And we stay for the awkward chit-chat.
Finally.
Ethan thanked Danny, you thanked God, therefore Danny is God. QED
You almost got away with that one but I’m sure Walky cut the line in front of Danny and it was allowed
But Ethan can pass for batman and he is recouldnised god in many comunities
I think if Danny was God he would have Danned up the world by now.
Have you seen the world?
I was about to say. I think the Danned state of the world is pretty solid evidence for Danny being God.
Transitive property. Wow geometry use in real life.
This is bad comedy.
Who disrupts my corona-
Wait, I think I missed my mark and came in late. Can we do a take two?
How does THE DOCTOR come in late? =X
He mistimed his TARDIS?
In other words… he was tardy.
+1 LIKE
Ask Amy Pond, thew girl who waited
The queen of France would probably have had something to say about it, too. If not for, you know, dying.
Madame Pompadour was never queen, merely the king’s mistress
I know who she was, but I can’t help imagining a ’50s greaser in a lacy silk gown.
Dude, have you seen the show? C’mon now.
Your avatar is best. Only fleshing I care about who isn’t Frank Welker.
Here’s a hint.
Wait, is that my line or yours? You know, you should be more prepared. You have way more experience with new bodies.
Mighty Megatron has falle-awww, screw it! I don’t even know what page we’re on.
Only here ’cause the other bloke is auditioning over at GI Joe today, and offered to put in a good word with the Baroness for me if I subbed for him.
Jokes on you, neither of them was in the sequel.
Or maybe the jokes on me, because I saw it.
Nah, the sequel was way better than the first one.
BLASPHEMER!
Megatron, is that you?
Too true. For good comedy, come down to my bar at 14:30 hours; the Pyrobots are doing a stand-up act. I’ve heard them practice, and they are on fire. Get it? Pyrobots? On fire? Hello? Is this thing on?
*coughs*
Your MOM is stretchy
wait
Mike waits for no mom.
Your mom doesn’t wait for Mike.
No mom is an island, complete unto itself. Each mom is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
And Mike will connect your mum to his mainland for a mere nickel.
By his peninsula.
One too many “n”s — or was that the damn autocorrect ruining a perfectly good dick joke..
I read it as an excellent geography/penis joke.
On a related note, Florida is totally America’s floppy dong. (A fact which shows itself in the politics.)
I have seen that joke on Bike Snob NYC. The “Florida, CONUS Floppy Dong/Dick” joke that is.
If she’s that stretchy, I guess she has birthed a lot of children.
That was getting awkward fast.
God, I hope that elevator doesn’t have a security camera or else they just Danned up big time.
Yeah, getting caught on camera doing jazz hands does seem like a Dan move.
Only if the camera has a mike attached or Marcie or Sal is watching said vid.
Your mom has a Mike attached.
Just cuz of that the elevator will have like 10 security camera’s and 5 audio leveling boom mics.
Also, Dina’s there and they haven’t noticed her yet.
Mind you, Dina already knows, but it adds to the overall fail.
Nothing involving Dina is ever a fail. Ever.
I’m sorry. This was the best I could do.
And with this, the Justice Clique of Campus was founded.
Way to keep a secret Danny
Way to Dan it up.
Nah, this isn’t a Danning amazingly. I have seen a few Dannings in my time and this does not look like one.
He lasted like a minute before blurting it out.
Nope, it’s definitely a Danning. It was just Ethan-assisted.
Not sure how it’s exposing a secret since Ethan knew.
Ethan was already in on the secret. Danny talked around it long enough to determine with reasonable certainty that Ethan was already in on the secret before dropping the charade. Having people who know able to openly discuss and coordinate efforts to help Amber has got to be a good thing. I’m not a big fan of Danny, but I’m not seeing that this is a fuckup on his part.
They just need to get Dorothy and Dina – and A-G herself – on the team now.
That is exactly how I view it. If Ethan did not know, then yes it would be a Danning.
Now pan over to your right and you see Daisy is standing right there.
Dina seems more likely, given her penchant for hiding in-shot.
Of course, she already knows. She’s just gathering intelligence on who does and doesn’t know.
Yeah, I purposely didn’t say Dina because of that very reason.
It seems like a safe bet that Dina is almost always just outside of any frame that she’s not shown in since she’s so good at hiding.
Next comic: Dina climbs down through the elevator hatch from the roof of the elevator, where she was listening in on the conversation.
The night is dark, and full of terrors.
who else now really wants to see Amazi-Girl and Melisandre duke it out?
Do they quack in the night? as all good terrors should
I like these two interacting. They need more strips together.
All male characters need more interaction. Don’t get me wrong, Willis’s female characters are some of the best I’ve seen written by a male author, but now that he himself has pointed out how the comic tends to fail at the reverse Bechdel test, I’m kinda hoping he does something about it.
No, he joked about it failing the reverse Bechdel Test *once*. It doesn’t get anywhere near constantly failing, even though the comic is actually about relationships (and so even a group of same-sex characters are likely to be talking about some opposite-sex character at some point). I’m certainly not seeing the lack of characterization among the males that made the arbitrary distinction of the BT a thing.
Also, I have to admit that given how many TV shows *do* fail at the actual and not the reverse Bechdel test, I kind of find it refreshing sometimes to see something that’s written so close to the vest that it actually *does* sometimes violate the reverse version. Like, one of my favorite shows ever is Gilmore Girls, which was on for I think 7 seasons and I’m not altogether sure it ever passed the reverse test. You know what? It was still a great show and the emphasis on women didn’t diminish it in the least.
Oh, I’m not saying an emphasis on female characters makes a work of fiction any less good (speaking of which, I should really start watching the second season of Orange is the New Black), but Dumbing of Age does show a noticeable decline in male roles compared to Willis’s previous comics.
I probably won’t. This comic is about Joyce and her neighbors, who are girls. Guys are going to be secondary characters by default. And that’s fine by me.
I mean, they’ll get characterization as things go along, but I certainly don’t see it as a failing.
I sometimes forget that Joyce is supposed to be the protagonist. But I’ve been following this since nearly the beginnning and I’ve never gone back and reread everything; maybe it’s time to do that and see if she comes off as the main character.
I don’t really think so. It’s an ensemble cast, though some members of the ensemble are clearly more central and important than others. Joyce is first among those, and has by a fair margin the most appearances, but there are other characters who have their own things going on that involve Joyce only tangentially, if at all.
(Billie/Ruth that I don’t think Joyce is even aware of, the whole Amber/Amazi-Girl/Danny/Sal/Blaine/Ethan/Dorothy clusterfuck that’s been taking up a lot of comic time lately, and which Joyce only touches around the edges, Sal/Jason that Joyce kicked off but hasn’t been involved in since, the Sal/Walky/Linda/Charles conflict which Joyce has seen bits and pieces of, but I don’t think she had any idea what she was looking at…)
Personal opinion time: Early in the comic, she does come off as the main character, quite strongly. Past the party arc though, she wanes, comes back strong with the Ethanga(y)te arc, and then wanes again and has felt more like a strong side character than a main character.
She totally steals the scene when she shows up, but she hasn’t had a lot of plot relevance lately.
Plus you can always point to Mike and Walky with Pajama Jeans 8)
Dumbing of Age, where male characters talk about clothes and female characters talk about .
*talk about sports (sorry, I’m not used to HTML)
Joyce, Amber and Billie are definitely main characters, but I’ve felt that Walky has shone more as a main character more than Dorothy. Maybe it’s because he interacts with more of the cast.
I also felt Danny was more of a main character early on, but maybe that’s waned in favour of Amber lately.
Really? I’ve… honestly been reading Walky as mainly a romantic interest kinda deal for Dorothy rather than being more under the spotlight than she is. I mean, sure, he’s had a tiny bit of growth in the comic so far… but mostly he’s served to support her as a character. He breaks her out of her hermitish studying ways so she can stay in the thick of things, but in general he’s either lounging around eating nuggets and watching cartoons, or going with her to hang out with her friends, helping her chase down Amazi-girl, or otherwise spending time with her. He doesn’t really go out and face challenges of his own. He might be getting his own Growing Up moment in the future as he comes to understand his sister further- but even so, that’s just him coming to understand, and hopefully support, a female character as she deals with her development- it’s not his plot line.
Walky’s development so far has been pretty much centered around Dorothy- realizing that maybe hanging out with girls CAN be more fun than eternal bachelorhood, realizing that he does kinda care what other people think in some circumstances, realizing that sometimes he has to put in effort to get what he wants. Dorothy’s learned and grown from her relationship with Walky, yeah, but also through her friendship with Joyce, from being challenged by Roz, from being thrown into a few tense situations with Danny, through the aftermath of the party, and by finding out about Amber. It’s subjective, obvs, but I… definitely see Dorothy as a central character, and Walky as way more if a supporting role.
Danny, I think does serve as a main character- although I agree with you- since being sucked into Amber’s black hole of Issues, the challenges he’s facing are almost entirely tied up in supporting a female castmember. Ethan and Danny are probably the male characters with the most development in the story so far (eh, Walky competes with them, but again, he hasn’t really faced any sort of character-defining challenge yet). They each have a male best friend who is astonishingly one-note and completely unhelpful, and the moment they talk to each other for longer than two or three sentences, they’re focusing on Amber. It’s interesting; I have noticed, before, how the lady characters tend to be the main focus of the comic and the focus of the important, tense, dramatic storylines, while the boys tend to be more sidelined and the focus of the romantic storylines, but I guess I didn’t realize it was intentional. =p
Nonetheless, I do hope Ethan and Danny can develop some sort of friendship that doesn’t always involve Amber- not because the men have to be at the center of every story ever, but because I like Ethan despite all his attempts at self-saboutage, and I think having someone completely, blindly blunt and honest to tell him when he’s being an idiot would be good for him. And poor Danny needs a friend who isn’t constantly trying to Joe everything and who doesn’t have more problems than actual human cells in her body.
I’m always all, “Oh, I have an opinion on this, I’ll say something! ^_^” And then I post a small novel of Thoughts. Ah, well; peeps can always tl;dr.
That is fine by me, as well. Please never change that. Dudes get so much airtime everywhere, all the time. It gets annoying to see comments asking for more of that in female-centered media. I am looking at you, Bronies.
Passing and failing the (actual) Bechtel Test doesn’t mean anything about the quality of whatever you’re looking at. All the test is meant for is to show a trend in our culture’s media, not to set any standards. That being said, the “reverse Bechtel Test” Willis brought up can not be used as anything but a joke because it doesn’t even serve the purpose of cultural examination that the Bechtel Test is supposed to be used for. 99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” with flying colors while at least 90% of that media fails the actual test miserably, therefore talking about how any single piece of media portrays its male characters becomes a non-issue when looking at how men are portrayed in the rest of the media in the culture.
No, that’s a logical fallacy. If we were talking about say a racism, the fact that the vast majority of our society condemns racism does not mean that it doesn’t matter if a particular piece of media supports it. It’s still wrong.
Now the Bechdel test itself is pretty silly, when you consider how often girls sit around and talk about guys. Women tend to enjoy media aimed at relationship drama, more so than men. Why is this? I’m sure its partially social conditioning and partially brain chemistry. Anyway female characters written by both women and men often talk about men a lot. It’s just the normal relationship for most of us. Guys talk about women as well, but rarely want to see media about ourselves talking about women. Again, I’m sure both social conditioning and brain chemistry are involved. Now I’m just rambling…
Note that for any work not to pass the Bechdel test in either direction is not the same as for it to support sexism.
The whole situation is a symptom of sexism, yes, and quite probably an indirect cause of sustaining society’s sexism, by normalising perceived differences between genders. (See the second paragraph of your reply.)
The problem is that the Bechdel Test doesn’t actually indicate whether a film (or other work) is Feminist, let alone say anything about the quality of the work. The “Twilight” movies pass the Test, but they are very much anti-Feminist films (and they are of poor quality), while “Casablanca” fails the Test, despite being considered one of the best movies of its era (if not all time).
What the Test is useful for is acting as a single indicator that there may be sexist content in a work. But it’s still only one indicator, and you would need to examine other aspects of the work as well.
Discussed in the comic during the Bechdel Test arc, but yeah you’re right.
My point was that if, say, 10% of movies pass the Bechdel Test, and 90% pass the Reverse Bechdel Test, that says something about society, if not those movies.
Yeah, but it doesn’t seem like that is true though. I haven’t found much info on the reverse test, but from what I did find it seems it’s pretty much the same percentage: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=703126 Which is to be expected really, and it doesn’t say anything about society and gender roles, it DOES say that romance has always been one of the main factors in story telling, meaning that a lot of conversations in stories would be about the opposite sex. Also, since about half of the population is the opposite sex of yourself, the distribution should also even out logically.
No.
It’s by the existence of the Reverse Bechdel test, and the disparity of the results between it and the Bechdel Test, that the Bechdel test gains its significance. If you couldn’t state that “99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” ” then you wouldn’t be able to illustrate how “90% of that media fails the actual test miserably” is bad.
So, yes, the Reverse Bechdel test is just as significant as the Bechdel test — you can’t illustrate what it means for a segment of society to be marginalized and underprivileged, if you can’t show what it means for a segment of society to *not* be such.
I’m perfectly in agreement with you however that both tests are only useful in illustrating societal trends, not in judging individual works.
“If you couldn’t state that “99% of all media in our culture can pass a “reverse Bechtel Test” … And you can’t, that’s why it fails to be significant. Just look at the examples I linked to in my post above, and that was just from a quick google. I would guess most romance movies, for instance, would fail both tests, and there are a LOT of romance movies out there.
I think he really could have drug that out a few more days.. but I guess he’s gotten sof.. er.. merciful in his “more experienced” years..
Experience some slight inconvenience, Willis!
Ten years from now Willis’ characters talk their way through problems ahead of time, new fandom catchphrase “Have a nice day, Willis.”
i love how they both just kind of realized how creepy/weird this was starting to sound and Danny just cuts it off like no more.
No no, I’m sure we can squeeze a few more euphemisms out of this conversation. Quick, let’s think of some!
Like the ‘journalism’ thing back a year or two ago?
“So have you and Amber done the Sciddly-doo?”
“Naw, We just Knick-Knacked.”
“Sorry to hear”
“We’re both just makin’ up words now, right?”
She, uh, had a “Parent Teacher Conference” that didn’t end well. Her dad was very unhappy with her “Academic Performance”. She’s worried it will be mentioned in the “School Newspaper”.
Wait, that last one isn’t actually a euphemism.
Her “grades” are “poor” because she “dresses up” like a “costumed crimefighter” at night and “fights vandals”. Am I doing it right”
I simultaneously “love” and cannot stand that you” ended it “with a han”ging quotation mark.
I will pretend that was by des”ign.
“School newspaper” is actually a euphemism for “Daisy’s ‘do’ list”.
She’s gonna go do some “journalism” with Amazi-Girl for an “article” in the “school newspaper”.
“Her current student uniform doesn’t match the standards of the dress of her morning classes, and Professor P.D. Five-O is gonna give her some serious detention time if he catches her in it.”
Great background, must be your most ambitious endeavor yet. 😛
To be truly ambitious, he’d need to make a solid white elevator wall.
Oh solid blue elevator wall, only you understand me… ;_;
Night classes are fun!
The beds are way more comfortable than the usual chairs and desks.
I don’t miss night classes. So much jousting involved.
“I suffer from a disorder called Sleep fighting.”
Mike is in the elevator too.
I’m really glad Danny and Ethan are talking about Amber. Finally.
Yeah it felt long overdue. But on the other hand, it has been two days in-comic.
Has anyone ever thought of what a Smash Bros version of DoA would be like?
Awesome, is what it would be like.
I’d main Billie and Sierra. Doesn’t even matter if they’re the worst characters.
Hey no fair that’s what I would do, well except have Amber in there too.
Nobody picked Ruth.
DIBS!
I can see Joyce as Princess Peach and Dotty as Princess Daisy.
I was thinking more like Joyce with Christian-themed moves, AmaziGirl being herself, et cetera.
Like Joyce throwing bibles and Billie, beer bottles?
…
THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME!
Sal would be Samus. Amber would be Zelda (And Amazi-Girl is Shiek).
And for some reason I’m picturing Dina as Link. The ever-present hat and preference for green, perhaps?
I feel like it would make more sense to be Amber to be like Samus. AmaziGirl would be like Armored Samus and Amber would be like Zero Suit Samus, and she summons attacks from various PC, console, and handheld games.
Her shield/dodge would be called Introversion, where she says “I have a raid.” and briefly blinks out of existence.
“one sec, killing spiders” as alternate audio
Dina wouldn’t be a character, she would be an easter egg in every level, it’s a game for the players to see if they can find her.
Or she’d be Yoshi, because y’know, dinosaur.
All of her specials would be explaining how inaccurate to real dinosaurs she is. For her Final Smash she dons feathers and is so adorable it gives people heart attacks.
An SP! version would be more apt.
“Robin only, Shortpacked storeroom, no Transformers!”
I could only hope for a diversity closet stage.
Why do I feel as if Walky’s final smash would be him throwing mcnuggets at people.
Mike’s final smash would be your mom.
Maybe it wouldn’t be final, but he’ll definitely smash.
God that elevator must have the wierdest recordings.
“Hey Bob look at this.”
“What?”
“Some kid is doing Jazz hands to another kid.”
“He any good?”
“Hmm, 6/10. Mostly because I think he’s got potential for the big leagues.”
I don’t know where I’m going with this!
“Hey, look, that kid who was changing his pants before the Asian girl with the rack walked in on him is making out with the girl who was practicing her speechifying face when she thought no one could see her.”
“Pajama pants kid is making out with Amazi-Girl?”
“I keep telling you, that’s not Amazi-Girl. She’s blonde and wears glasses.”
“Clark Kent wears glasses! And it could be a wig.”
Really!? I thought you were talking about a night class on phycology….in other new sony E3 announcements sucked this year the only the games worth remembering was Batman Arkham knight and MK 10
That’s made more sad by the fact that Arkham Knight isn’t platform exclusive (same goes for the Grand Theft Auto V trailer).
Eh…I’m just hoping Namco announces ANYTHING tekken related over the next few days.
Well, Namco was supposed to take its crack at a crossover with Street Fighter.
Exactly what I’m waiting for. GIVE ME 3D CHUN-LI, YOU BASTARDS!
I want a New capcom vs Marvel or something good out of the new naruto game besides fucking mecha Naruto, I still can’t believe that shit its so dumb
No not a Danning here. Just the opposite.
He and Ethan may actually be able to help Amber now that they both have acknowledged that they know her secret. And maybe fill in each other with information that can help them help her.
Now, get Sarah in on it, and Amber will have a decent posse.
I agree! This is great news; Amber’s been alone with her secret long enough.
Both Danny and Ethan genuinely care about Amber and know her enough to help her. I’m very glad that they talk and can join forces.
…of course there is every chance that their timing coinciding with Amber at least temporary giving Amazigirl a rest will explode spectacularly. But why would anything work smoothly for anyone in this comic?
Why Sarah? Is it because of the Tiny Thunder has a point remark?
Sarah tells it like it is more than anyone, while Danny and Ethan are slightly spineless. Amber might need an unbiased harsh truth or two.
Loving the spin-off drama from Amazi-Girl’s antics. Excellent work, Willis.
Sorry you games announcements from Soe suck. Guessing those are console games?
Landmark is damn good. But only if you like PC games I guess. And Everquest.
Do many universities have buildings high enough for able-bodied people to require elevators?
Well they’re leaving from their dorm buildings, so yes. Most of the dorms on my school’s campus have between 8 and 10 floors, and most people on floors 4 and up generally take the elevator.
US law — specifically, the Americans with Disabilities Act — requires elevators, ramps, doorways no less than 36″ wide (and hallways no less than 48″ wide), handrails and washbasins at a specific height, and other architectural and design accommodations to make sure the building is accessible to people in wheelchairs or suffering other physical handicaps.
Define “able-bodied”. I’m technically able-bodied but given my druthers would want to use an elevator to access a top bunk.
“To be an exceptional student, you cannot simply take the night class. You must become the night class.”
“night class” sounds like a much cooler superhero name considering the context. Her catchphrase could be “Time to get schooled!”
Wait she is?
I keep picturing Ethan as Dick Grayson.
I…have totally done that hand thing.
Re: Solid Blue Background.
Based on the above alt-text, Mr. Willis, I guess you won’t be using any Celtic interwoven traceries or similar complex patterns anytime soon. Or not unless they can be cut & pasted.
Willis has demonstrated that he’ll do whatever the heck is necessary to place the scene where he feels like placing it. That doesn’t stop drawing accurate buildings and landscaping from being a lot of work.
I think the interesting question is whether Amber is the secret identity or Amazi-Girl. One might argue they’re both real but if you have to choose, Amazi-Girl is Amber’s strength and confidence as a woman while Amber is who Blaine tried to make her into–the meek submissive girl he could control. Now, Bill is a bad source for Superman but his statement about it in Kill Bill might reflect Amber/Amazi-Girl’s duality.
And yes, I’m aware Bill is a psychopath.
“It was Amber who closed her eyes. It was Amazi-Girl that opened them again.”
Here’s the problem with Bill’s thesis: Kal-El may have been born (or post-Crisis, conceived) on Krypton, but he did not grow up there. He grew up as Clark Kent in Kansas. He doesn’t view humans as alien, because he views himself as human. The reason Bill attributes this view to Superman, is that Bill is basically Lex Luthor, unable to comprehend altruism.
Unlike his colleague J’onn J’onzz, who left Mars as an adult and does view humans as aliens, Superman views himself as human, and he sees Clark Kent as the “real” version of himself. If so, why the elaborate deceptions he pulled during the Silver Age? Because it was the Silver Age, and as Linkara says, we don’t talk about the Silver Age!
Seriously, we don’t talk about the Silver Age! Not the time Jimmy Olsen became a werewolf, or the Batman of Zuhr-En-Ahrr, or Lois Lane’s various attempts to trick Superman into marrying her, or the time Jimmy Olsen was turned into a turtle-like Kaiju, or Batman’s rainbow costume. We especially do not discuss the Joker’s “boner”. Got it? Good.
However, we do take a shot every time there’s a gorilla on the cover.
Amber is neither meek nor submissive; she was the one who flipped a table, who stabbed Sal, who told off and beat up Blaine. Amazi-Girl isn’t stronger than Amber; she’s just more controlled.
I would actually argue that Amber’s the one who always resorts to violence – and disproportionate violence, at that – because she’s weaker than Amazi-Girl. Amazi-Girl has measured and controlled responses; Amber tries to run or hide, and, failing that, lashes out like a cornered animal.
“You merely adopted the night class. I was born in it, molded by it.”
I subconsciously imagined Danny being voiced by Yuri Lowenthal in this strip.
omg Danny’s face!!
And the stress of the curriculum of her extra credit classes might cause an extended toll on her other studies.
I mean, YEAH, SHE IS BATMAN! GRAVELLY VOICE AND EVERYTHING! REALLY!
Er… There’s no chance that being Amazi-Girl is in any way a negative influence on her normal life. No chance at all.
Well… It has been keeping her from playing MMOs, right?
For most people, that would be a positive impact.
you can only talk like that so long before someone thinks you’re talking about “other” stuff
I just noticed this is one of the few strips that only feature boys, and that it doesn’t pass the reverse Bechdel test. 😉
I wanted to see how far they were going to go with that bit before it fell apart.
Well, at least he’s supportive of his girlfriend!
Of course, that may not be what she needs. On the other hand, he’d make a great sidekick!
finaly took danny and ethan long enough to admit they both know amber is amazing girl. love her night class aka her sneaking out and playing batman.
wtf Danny no spoiler alert? You sir are a jackass.
Had been looking forward to this Danny and Ethan conversation for some time.
is it weird that this strip makes me think of the song grave yard shift?
Oh, come on, Willis! You didn’t want to draw the wood-paneled elevator? Slacker!