A song so catchy, most people probably don’t listen to the lyrics. But they should, because it’s not just about the pleasures of conformity and the importance of trends, it’s also a personal statement about the band itself.
Billie really does have some good points when she isn’t
1) Wasted
2) Making a generalization
3) Assuming Sal is Amazigirl.
4) Acting like a spoiled brat.
And than Sara will find out and Mike you all, right before Ethan Danny’s the situation with Joyce who Ruth’s him and turns to Dorothy for comfort and Joyce-ing.
We don’t actually spend that much time with Dina though, do we? She only comes onscreen when she’s interacting with one of the main characters; she hasn’t really had her own storyline or plot arc yet.
To clarify, is your position on Dina one of dislike or one of apathy?
If the latter, different tastes and all that, I get it. If the former, please know that I officially hate you and all that you stand for (but only in the internet way; I’m sure you’re a perfectly good chum on a personal level)
Apathy would be closer. She has her moments, I don’t dislike her, but like I said further up, there are other characters I would MUCH rather spend our limited screen time with.
But if he DID bring back Lawsome, people would be constantly complaining that he ruined it forever, nothing can compare to the original, and that it was all playskool now. Soon enough he would be forced to turn the entire thing into an homage to the original.
And, it totally has nothing to do with making it less weird when she has sex with one or more of them, or both. Not that she has the hots for either of them. But, it would be totally awkward if they would be hating one another in the middle of a hot, steamy threesom. Not really what’s gonna happen, cause Billie isn’t totally in to that, sure that’s it. But, just in case, cause you never know…
Actually she did this before, she just usually presents it as being to her benefit.
For instance, she nudged Walky and Dorothy together. Then, unaware that they were already a couple she encouraged Walky to talk more to her.
It makes sense, since she said she is closer to the Walkertons than her own family – father busy with work, mother busy . . . socializing.
She does this all the time, insult and abuse people and when they have real problems, leap in to do her best (which is frequently pretty inept, but still) to help them out, not just for the Walkertons but for Ruth and Joyce and random girls on their floor and Danny just now (at least she thought she was being helpful).
Jennifer Billingsworth: Head cheerleader. Problem solver. Tsundere for everybody.
That means either they were out of the house already when you were born, you were out of the house already when they were born, or you were the only one who was strong enough to come back after being thrown into a pit, Spartan style.
When I say brothers and sisters, I should say half-brothers and half-sisters, my father dipped his wick in many a waxy box and as such they were raised by different mothers.
That may be true, but can I have permission to continue telling people you were thrown into a baby pit and fought your way out? It’ll boost your coolness at least 43% within a week.
People who are unaware of their privilege and refuse to see it are almost worse than those who are aware of it and use it to be a jerk.
At least entertain the idea that you might have it better than someone, you asshat.
I think he knows, but he’s just mad she called their parents something resembling racists. We have no evidence that that is true and it’s certainly not something Walky would even want to theoretically entertain the notion of.
Word of God seems to suggest Sal is right, but I have to agree that it feels a bit premature to really feel resentment. It’s obvious they favor Walky, but not so much as why. Or rather, that the reason why is the skin color. I mean, we should “know” but it is hard to without an example.
I think it was made clear it wasn’t actual skin colour [which is the same swatch] but other traits, like hair straightness… possibly how he aces his classes without effort. He must be a tiger mom’s dream come true.
I’m thinking it might not even be so much the hair, per se – Walky’s is really kinky when it’s short, too – as a nice juicy cocktail of racism and sexism, where the Walkerton parents – who are, after all, a black man and a white woman – find it more acceptable for their son to be black than for their daughter to be black, because of the way their racial and gender stereotypes synergize. Though there may be very little difference in the actual “blackness” of the twins, the standard of required “whiteness” for Sal is much higher because she’s a girl.
They want their children to be a successful and virile black man and a pretty little white girl, and instead they got an awesome and hot black woman and a generically beige boy with no aspirations and insecure in his manhood. So you get Linda working on Walky to try to mold him into Charles, and Charles working on Sal to try to mold her into Linda.
(Disclaimer: Presentation of racial and gender stereotypes in this comment should not be taken as endorsement by the commenter.)
As far as I know, we only have Sal’s statement that she’s darker than Walky. There’s no visual evidence of that in the comic. David could have made her darker, but hasn’t. I don’t recall any other character in the series commenting on it. I suspect this is only Sal’s subjective reality, and isn’t objective reality. But in people’s lives, perception often is reality, and they act upon that belief.
If another character has agreed that Sal is darker, then please link me to it – and I’ll be happy to be wrong.
Yes, the base skin tone for both twins is #cea87e. That is totally not the point. There’s a lot more to the complex of issues that makes up the concept of “race” in our society than the simple RGB value of someone’s skin tone. One of those things – and one that’s been explicitly and visibly brought up in the strip – is hair texture. Sal’s hair grows kinkier than Walky’s, which is a “black” trait, so it may be valid to say that Sal is more black than Walky, even though she’s not actually darker.
Another part of it is simply identification by self and others. And both Sal and Walky agree that he’s whiter than she is. As Walky himself says, she’s black; he’s generically beige.
John, you’re dropping all kinds of science on this thread right now and I love it. The people who are crying foul on Willis because of this storyline really aren’t thinking carefully enough or bothering to consider the intersectional social issues at work in this family dynamic.
Let me tell you as a first generation Chinese American – you have no idea how real tiger moms work.
If you get A’s, the nagging is on for getting an A+.
Get an A+ and you get berated for not getting a perfect score.
Perfect score? You let down generations of your ancestors who worked hard to get the family to the point where you had the opportunity to screw it up that bad. Where’s the extra credit point?
God help you if you don’t get all of those.
Tiger moms aren’t just about grades, tiger moms are about constant unrelenting pressure. If your hair isn’t falling out from the stress and you actually have a social life, you don’t have a real tiger mom.
Of course as an only son, I explained that the real world doesn’t work like that, I will have a real childhood, and that will be that.
I would think that being an only child would have focused that pressure on you even more. I’m glad you managed to salvage a “real childhood” from that situation, though. I have a few friends/acquaintances from the Asian-American community who grew up with a similar value system, many of whom never really questioned it, and while it isn’t really my place to pass judgment on them or their parents I often wonder if they are really well equipped to find happiness for themselves.
Maybe I’m off on this, but I wouldn’t trust word of god too much with any from any series where the author has shown active interest in fucking with their readership.
Yeah, here I am, some white dude, fucking with my readership over a race issue. That sounds like something I should do. It’s not like it’s a delicate subject or anything. Definitely something I should play around with purposefully like an ignorant jackhole.
That got a laugh, although I’m sure you weren’t laughing at the time.
I’m new to the readership, although I went back and read every episode. You write a thoughtful series. I don’t always agree but that’s what makes it interesting. With this one, you’ve certainly engendered some strong feelings. So I’ll put my opinion in on this: there’s been plenty of accusations of racial bias with the parents but I think there’s other equally good possibilities. I personally think it’s much more complex than that. I think it’s equally possible it’s gender bias (if in fact there is any real bias): in many Asian and African cultures, women are devalued, abused and demeaned. The problem with bias &/or discrimination is it can be pretty hard to tell when you’re being discriminated against as to which discrimination is at play. The discriminator rarely tells you why. And there are others, such as social or financial status. A person may think he knows when bias is at play, but it’s not at all clear even when they think they know, what the other person is really thinking. A person may think he’s disliked because (s)he is (insert color, race, religion, sexual orientation here) – when in fact (s)he’s disliked because (s)he’s a jerk.
Siblings find different ways of getting parental attention: one conforms to get attention, the other acts up to get attention. Not even unusual. The father’s comment is a great example of how it could be taken either negatively or positively. He could have been saying “I’m being supportive and encouraging of your choices.” – or he could have been saying, “Yes, anything that makes you look more white, i.e., straight hair, is a good thing.”
But I opt for the former because as a parent he would have wanted to be encouraging to his daughter. I’m dead certain he loves her, whether or not either parent has a favorite. Mothers and daughters often have difficult relationships with each other – and it’s worth noting that acting up has its own consequences in parent/child relationships.
“Too bad. You look so pretty when it’s long and straight,” said to someone whose hair is not straight and does not naturally grow straight is NOT positive, supportive, or encouraging. It kind of looks like a compliment if you don’t read too closely what it’s actually saying, but it’s so, so not. He isn’t actually saying that Sal is pretty. He’s saying that she could be pretty, but isn’t because her hair isn’t straight.
Actually, I’m not sure that Willis has ever lied to the readership about his comic. Sure, he likes to make us wail and lap up our sweet, sweet tears, but he doesn’t do it through direct trolling of the readership, but rather by making the comic itself cause us to scream and cry.
There is the futility of questioning the intent of the creator when given their word.
Questioning how well it is shown is another question.
I agree with the points mdw777 made.
I will say from what we have been presented, the reason for the Walkerton parents motivations aren’t shown.
I’m confused – are you two saying that Sal isn’t openly accusing their parents of hating on her because she’s “more black” than Walky (whatever that means)? Because I’d say Walky hasn’t made a single leap anywhere in this comic. He’s simply stated the situation as it factually is.
Can’t speak for Gbh, but there are subtler forms of bias than “card-carrying member of the Klan”, ones that someone may not even realize they’re doing. Walky jumps from 0 to 10, without recognizing that a “2” might exist and be a contributing factor with Sal.
So I guess my theory on it is right, Walky doesn’t understand the subtler forms of racism that are out there. He heard Sal’s accusation and it didn’t fit with his personal definition, so he just lumped it as a petty insult.
It might also sound like and excuse from a petty criminal.
It isn’t just that it doesn’t fit Walky’s definition. As wrapped up as he is in his own personal world he may have genuinely not observed it.
Mom is just being mom. That’s the way things are. Young people aren’t famous for analyzing things that aren’t bothering them or things that are just facts of life before they were born.
Plus it was happening to somebody else. Another thing not all young people observe.
Plus, Walky doesn’t see everything. If all he’s ever seen is Sal acting out, due to the parental favoritism, then he may simply think that of course they like him better if she’s going to act like that.
Agreed. And maybe he became their favorite because Sal acts out. I’m not even sure the parents’ befuddlement on how to reach Sal (and her equally awkward attempt on pleasing them) instantly equals favoritism. It may simply be a default in that they can at least talk to ONE of their kids. Let’s see how David goes about this. It’s certainly interesting to watch.
But seriously, I get where you’re coming from, and I get that you’ve since confirmed that yes it really is a race issue at play here. It’s just a really strange place to have it show up. And having it brought up the way it was (Sal’s outburst with nothing we’ve actually seen to back it up, other than favoritism which could be ascribed to any number of other things. Personally up until that point I was guessing sexism) makes it something that’s going to raise a lot of red flags until we get more information. Especially from anyone who isn’t reading your comments with regularity.
Having a set of twins and saying that the parents are racist against just one of them is a very strange way to bring the topic into your comic. Most would think that parental instincts would override any bias the parents would have. Having an interracial couple be racist is also strange, one would think they would be least likely to have problems with race.
Third, all we really have is one persons word and essentially no evidence. You didn’t show us, you told us. I’m not sure why so many commenter’s here are so willing to jump to the conclusion that the Walkerton’s are racist. Saying that you prefer Sal’s hair straight does not automatically equate to even slight racism. My Girlfriend’s Mother told her she prefers when she doesn’t straighten her hair, prefers it curly. Does that make her racially biased in favour of black people? I think that’s too strong a conclusion to draw from so little information.
I understand that you may be trying to “challenge our preconceptions” and all that jazz, but by it’s very nature people are going to find it strange, I would dare say you are doing a poor job otherwise. Now I have enough respect for you to believe that more information and context will be forthcoming, and I’m sure it will be very well written and played out, but I would not get angry or flustered simply because not everyone wants to hop on board with the racism conclusion right away.
Scorning the ones you are trying to reach is usually not a productive method.
What Havoc and Seerow said.
Don’t get me wrong, I think DoA is well written. I even see a place and reason for characters I don’t like.
But so far, without Word of God, the situation can be read many ways.
To many, having this issue within a biological family seems strange.
Look, we’re all along for the ride. The comments show a lot of analysis by readers, which is a pretty good sign of emotional commitment. But we can only go by what we’ve read and what we’ve experienced.
please don’t agree with the guy who said that interracial couples are exempt from racism and that grandmothers preferring curly hair means valued whiteness isn’t a thing
I really hope you’re not referring to me Willis, because I said nothing of the sort. It’s natural for artists to be defensive of their work, but constructing strawmen is hardly an appropriate way to get your message across.
Having an interracial couple be racist is also strange, one would think they would be least likely to have problems with race.
That is so amazingly false. So so amazingly false. It is so fucking ignorant, you have no idea, and I’m tired of this flood of ignorant shit on my website. No more.
People who are in the right have often been known to resort to hyperbolic exaggeration of an accurate description of the situation. Particularly when one is talking about an issue that incenses them (like an accusation that his parents are racists does, whether it’s true or not) or in situations where they’re not in a formal debate and instead are just talking to a dip like Billie.
I think the biggest problem with the whole issue is Walky left the room before anything could be clarified. It caused a lot of confusion in the readers who also are only aware of skin-tone racism and the people who have never heard of racial favouritism amongst children the same skin-tone.
Of course, as you say, this could all be moot and Sal is just looking for an excuse to be hated. However I don’t see that as likely since this is Willis we’re talking about, he’s not really cavalier with topics like this.
I think the main problem is he assumed his readers would know what he was talking about so he felt no need to explain further.
I don’t see how. If you’re going to insult people by calling them Romney voters, you clearly don’t care what they think, so how does it even affect you?
Beyond what Random832 said, the discussion here seems polite and healthy.
I’ve seen that on the internet before, but not often.
Why not be happy about achieving that on a hot button issue? Especially one that some haven’t experienced?
Give him a chance to start his own growth arc. Compared to others in DoA it isn’t a bad one.
Nobody I’ve met ever greets a conversation like this with open arms.
A level most 18 year olds don’t have. Those that I’ve met with contentious family relationships don’t really address them in a healthy way until some time in their 20’s.
Back when I was socializing in bars, the days before Christmas and Thanksgiving had many drinking to steel themselves up for dealing with family. Fun atmosphere.
Walky, since Sal was sent to private school and Billie became a cheerleader, seems to have become withdrawn. That’s the story here – that’s why he likes his show so much. Of course he hasn’t looked at his family dynamics.
Also the family dynamics probably look pretty simple to him. Five years ago Sal changed the situation from “less-liked child” to “felon” and subsequently got sent away to school. And then in the years since he’s seen no family dynamics at all except for the occasional shameful remembrance that his twin once went all rebellious and knocked over a store.
And then now all of a sudden Sal turns up and tells him that all that happened wasn’t her fault; it was because their parents hate her because they’re racists. You can see why he would be surprised by this this sudden revelation and not entirely inclined to accept it at face value.
He noticed that Sal has indeed told him to his face that she thinks their parents are racists. In fact I’m not sure what part of what he’s said here shows a lack of perception.
He’s lived with his parents this whole time and in this entire time has probably seen hardly a hint of this racism which was supposedly enough to singlehandedly drive Sal to a life of crime. He almost certainly hasn’t seen any hint of it in the last five years, since Sal wasn’t even there and references to her probably were couched in the fact that she’s a criminal now (as opposed to her extreme blackness or whatever).
I strongly suspect that everything that Walky saw could be explained by the theory that he was simply a more obedient child, who easily got b better grades. My whole family is white as paper and guess what? The exact same scenario played out there, though I stopped short of entering a life of crime. My sister was perfect, I said ‘screw that’ and was lazy and imperfect, and guess who was the favored child? ME! No, wait, it was her. I doubt she leapt to the conclusion that this was due to racism. And neither would Walky.
Personally I think he did pretty well in the initial conversation when Sal sprung this little nugget of information on him. He didn’t completely dismiss the claim as pure bullshit Sal made up to justify her own misdeeds, which would be the natural response. But you can hardly expect him to just suddenly accept this hairbrained, insulting, and very convenient-for-Sal excuse for her behavior.
Walky was insensitive to Sal as far as making light of their respective situations (him being the “favorite”, her not so much). However, if she isn’t the favorite, it is more likely due to her own actions than any perceived racism on the part of their parents.
From what I can understand, she was always the “problem child”, right? Well, that means there are two explanations. Either:
A) Her parents really ARE racist.
or
B) She’s always been a “bad seed”, as it were, and thus her parents liked Walky just a bit more, and she didn’t want to admit that she was her own worst enemy and thus came up with the racism explanation.
Both are possible, so we’ll need more info to determine which is correct.
C) Parents tend to favor one child over another. It doesn’t mean they don’t love their other kids, but perfect even handed behavior just isn’t real.
Parents also tend to favor their opposite gendered child and mom runs that marriage for the day to day stuff at least. It was dad who complimented Sal, mom ignored her.
And by “complimented”, you mean “told her she looks pretty when she makes her hair look ‘white’, which is not how it is naturally or how it was at that moment”.
Are you sure? The one interaction we have seen between Sal and her parents is their father saying ‘I like your hair straight.’ Curly ‘black’ hair like is Sal’s natural locks are seen as very urban and black.
Everyone who’s experienced that kind of discrimination immediately knew exactly what was going on and why. Everyone else squints their eyes and says stuff like “oh we can’t know for SURE” while voting for Mitt Romney or something.
I dunno. I’m black and even though I’ve never experienced it first hand I understand that it’s an issue. Still, I just assumed it was his personal preference than being racist although it can be taken either way. I’m not a squinty Romney voter though <:T.
Agreed. I voted for Obama twice – but by David’s definition – I may be squinty-eyed. There’s other types of discrimination, which can make it more complex as to what’s being dealt with. And maybe the person (either the discriminator, or the discriminatee) is just a plain jerk, and it’s not racial at all. In the family dynamics specifically with Sal, well, she’s been busy driving a wedge between herself and her parents for some time, in effect driving them closer to Walky by her own actions. Whether she sees it that way or not, is definitely a different story. That may not be the story David’s trying to write here, but there are other interpretations still possible.
Okay, obviously a strongly felt issue.
But I think it’s kind of a wide gulf between experienced it and instinctively knows and code word using Republican.
I mean, from the outside and not seeing only interaction with one person (Sal), how would this be seen?
Hard to know another person’s motives, but when you see interactions with many people a pattern can be seen. Speaks worse of all blacks, always nervous around, etc. no matter how educated, what the dress, individual demeanor.
But liking or favoring one person can have a lot of motives. So I don’t know how it should be immediately identified by all.
Also I think that people who have experienced discrimination sometimes use it as a go to explanation.
I can’t absolutely say that I don’t discriminate, because I don’t have a Mike to thoroughly make me examine my unconscious. But I can say as a Chinese-American growing up in the Midwest in the ’70s I’ve been discriminated by all other groups – including first generation and old world Chinese, other Asians, and all minorities.
Even with that, I’m willing to confirm racism/colorism as the motive.
So what you’re saying is, that everyone that hasn’t personally experienced that kind of discrimination is FORCED by their inexperience and your excluded middle to be racist and vote for Romney.
For all the people who grew up in white households, and also all the single children everywhere, I’m a little offended.
Racism doesn’t have to be easily visible to exist. It’s an unconscious bias thing. Micro-aggressions that build up over time. Harvard runs this thing called the Implicit Association Test, you can take it online, where you have to sort pictures of people in different categories with “good” and “bad.” Most people, it turns out, take longer putting “black” with “good” and “white” with “bad than they do placing them the other way round. Even black folk.
It’s not about intentional racism, it’s about how society conditions us to discriminate, even if we don’t mean to. Our society favors white people, and that leaks into everything. Even Sal’s relationship with her parents.
Italy did a study. Everyone is far more racist than they think they are. Light skinned people feel more sympathy for other light skins. Dark skinned people feel more sympathy for other dark skins. And everyone felt sympathetic toward the purple skin.
I haven’t met that many Vikings fans outside of Minnesota.
Those unconscious impulses are interesting. Don’t know what can be done about it beyond striving for self awareness and looking at personal motivations. Hard to do continuously while looking for proper adjustments.
I wonder where Sensedog and CW Roden have been for the past few story arcs. Must’ve just joined if can’t see the way her parents treat Sal is not based on what Sal did, rather Sal did what she did based on the way her parents treated her.
…I’ve actually kept up since the first DOA comic, thank you.
Regardless of Sal’s motivations, it doesn’t excuse her own actions. It also cannot have helped her relationship with her parents; Willis has since posted a comment indicating that they are, in fact, racist. I just did not automatically assume that they were. My bad.
Not your bad. In real life, there are other possibilities. You kept your mind open until told otherwise. If the parents are racist, it says something very dark (no pun intended) about the reasons for their marriage. One or both of them must really hate themselves to be racist and yet marry outside their own race.
Actually I’m guessing this is a growth arc, so this is the opposite of Danning it up.
He’s just been told to seriously consider that his parents have some racism. Tell me how well that conversation would have gone with you at 18, assuming you got along with and liked your parents.
It should go through some denial at first, some background thinking and reconsidering events in a different light. Afterwards he would have a more serious conversation with Sal.
But yeah, just immediately agreeing that a cornerstone of your rather young life is so fundamentally flawed would be very strange.
Billie, you are at the present moment making decisions that align with that which a good friend and a good person would make. I commend you for them, please keep it up. And recall that self-examination is good for you too.
She’s a good person underneath it all. What with helping her floormates (whom she barely know) with their miscellaneous problems, seeking out Ruth, and that speech about how in high school she always had her friends’ backs with regards to abusive boyfriends and preventing date rape.
I agree. Billie knew what to do when Joyce got drugged, helped run things while Ruth was missing and then saved her, tried to help Walky get with Dorothy (even though he already was)… She’s got her issues but I think “good person and good friend” isn’t too much of a stretch.
Before Walky and Dorothy were together, she made sure to push them together. She saw their interest (Dorothy did ask Billie if they were a couple) and acted.
The cafeteria they’re in is pretty damn large, with seating areas segregated by the food-getty-places in the middle of it. Nothing was going on “around them.” It was going on dozens of feet away, behind walls and beyond hundreds of yacking people. You probably gotta yell to be heard.
Even if they did see Amber lose her cool and flip the table, I don’t think Walky and Billie are even that familiar with Amber. They might have had a moment of “huh, that was weird”, and given how many days worth of comics this lunch is already taking that hardly seems like a needful use of panels.
And even if they heard the table flip, they probably would have looked over just in time to see (if they could see) that a table was flipped. If you didn’t see the actual action, it would have been a non-event. Kinda like, “Oh, that was a really loud noise, is something happening. [no more loud noises occur] I guess nothing is going on. Back to what I was doing.” Unless “OMG CALL AN AMBULANCE!” or “FIGHTFIGHTFIGHTFIGHT!” happens after random loud cafeteria noise, no one is going to do anything about it.
A little note from someone who went to a grossly overcrowded massive school with an equally massive, spacious and croweded cafeteria: A huge amount of people chatting all at the same time, even if most of them use inside voices, tends to be LOUD.
I don’t doubt that Sal’s been through discrimination, but does that give her the right to break the law? I feel as though we’re giving her some kind of pass just because she had a bum childhood. Last I checked, not everyone breaks the law because their parents weren’t good to them.
Ever hear of the “affluence defense”. It’s when a person gets out of a felony offense just because they are rich, and thus don’t know the consequences.
My dad and I agree that it is the stupidest clause ever. And we are on opposite sides of the aisle.
I don’t think the comic has ever implied Sal was justified in breaking the law or should get some kind of pass for it. Heck, these past few days have shown the long terms effects her robbery had on Amber’s psyche.
The right and the reason are two different things.
The legal system deals with where your rights ended, for the most part.
The reason is explaining the cause. That has nothing to do with moral or legal right. It isn’t even a justification. It explains what set off the chain of events in the Rube Goldberg machine of a person’s psyche.
This comic seems not about justifying Sal for what she did at 13, but Billie trying to get Walky to grow into a better brother going forward, who could help his sister with her current issues (which evidently grew from how she reacted to their parents), which seems good for Sal and Walky’ s futures, including both their relations with others — plus what Ourorboros said.
Good discussions. Also, Walky, like any other kid whose parents have been good to him, is having a hard time realizing that his parents do have problems. If Dorothy can stand up to her parents over something she believes in, Walky needs to as well.
He may be using hyperbole, but he’s not misrepresenting. Sal really did call his parents racists to his face. The subtle details of which membership cards they have based on that are irrelevant.
Also I still agree with walky that the thought of his parents are racist tword there own daughter who is slitely lighter skin then her father is still absurd, but they should still talk about why she thinks that, you know without either one of them storming off angerly, even if there more hard headed then a bull.
newllend said that the thought of his parents being racist is absurd.
Word of God is recent, not seen by everybody, and does not speak of Walky’s observations or state of mind.
Look, Walky sees a biracial marriage. He also sees a sister who acted out criminally. Favoritism occurs in families without racial basis – either way to a kid (they are twins) Walky had (to our knowledge) no reason to see anything other than some favoritism.
It’s just not where a kid in that situation would naturally go.
That Word of God isn’t all that recent. It’s been made clear by Word of God since their parents first showed up.
And if I were Walky I wouldn’t believe a word of it either. Sal, as you noted, started acting like a criminal. Once you do that, nobody needs any other reason to justify favoring the other sibling more.
Sal’s claim is a big one, but I’m not quick to not listen to somebody elses side of the story,that’s why I agree with Billie, I want to know why she robbed that store and I want to know why she thinks her parents are racis , for that reason Im hopeing for a nother flash back soon or origin story please
“Let him”.
Well mom is overbearing and controlling, which stifles growth. A person doesn’t grow without making decisions and facing consequences on their own. Preferably some of this is done in the training wheel period we call the teen years.
But teenage rebellion is in part asserting your place to do so. If Walky failed to do this, that’s on him.
I think it’s been noted that Dorothy is a bit of a milder version of his mom.
Its turning my hand like that when it becomes uncomfortable. Though I did try it with the hand that had a sprained wrist years ago. That might have been the source of discomfort.
I actually make similar hand gestures all the time when I’m talking about something that agitates me. My wife makes fun of it and refers to it as “The Claw”.
Listening: Pretending to agree with people so they’ll stop talking about whatever nonsense they’re insisting on being wrong about,
Damn it, Walky. You don’t have to agree if you think that she’s wrong, but you could at least give her the credit of acknowledging that the thing she thinks is a thing that exists.
Sal thinks your parents are unfair to her. This is not an idle thought, but a considered opinion based on many years of experiences which you do not necessarily share and working theories as to why it could be happening to which you have no answer other than “No no my parents love me how could they do anything wrong”.
I don’t think you can possibly think you two have nothing to talk about. I think either you think if you throw a huge enough fit every time she brings that up she’ll stop feeling treated unfairly. Or you do not care how much your sister is suffering as long as she doesn’t do it in front of you.
Agreeing that your parents suddenly have always been racist isn’t something that anybody is likely to do, for the sake of argument or not. For some odd reason people tend to be a bit protective of their parents, particularly when they’re on friendly terms with them.
Even knowing that she’d think I was a hopeless nerd who wasn’t even worth acknowledging, Billie is hands-down my favorite character in this strip. She’s flawed and she’s fallible (and oh so very much of both), but she’s just so human.
So the comic started with what were presented with a clearly-defined set of “good guys” and “bad guys” and it turns out the bad guys aren’t all bad (OK, there’s Blaine and Faz) and the good guys have their rough spots. Yet the absolutists among the fen keep trying, bless ’em.
Either to dismiss her, just like their mother clearly does, or parrot her foot in the mouth claim are the only options he can think of?
Maybe not the Klan, but Walkeron, your parents carry cards to a club you don’t want to make yourself or Dorothy a part of, ’cause they clearly didn’t teach you, they PROGRAMMED you.
Dealing with somebody whose only line is “Our parents are horrible racists and that’s the only reason they like you and you have to AGREE WITH ME” limits your options somewhat.
Not really, there are degrees of racism, and sexism, and homophobia. And minorities of every type are capable of bigotry, against the majority AND their own minority groups.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s a little like the whole, “I’m not racist, I have black friends!” mentality. Not really a valid argument.
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Huh. His eyes are quite dorky.
So dorky he doesn’t even have eye whites.
Scleras are for squares.
Which is strange as scleras are round…
It’s hip to be square.
A song so catchy, most people probably don’t listen to the lyrics. But they should, because it’s not just about the pleasures of conformity and the importance of trends, it’s also a personal statement about the band itself.
Hey, why are there copies of the style section, do you have a dog, a little … chow … or something ?
oh damn, too late…
They look like screaming ink blots
WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT!? NOW I CAN’T UNSEE IT!
I’m in the same boat.
It’s not just his eyes either! Now This entire webcomic will forever more be Screaming Pupils
If you invert the colors of his eyes, they look kinda like malformed rice balls 🙂
Brilliant. I was going to say he’s giving her the “66”.
Those eyes look like little, black flexing arms.
And now you cannot unsee them.
Suspense!
Growth arc!
Okay, I’ll give Billie this one.
Billie really does have some good points when she isn’t
1) Wasted
2) Making a generalization
3) Assuming Sal is Amazigirl.
4) Acting like a spoiled brat.
5) Hating on nerds.
As TVtropes points out, self hating nerds.
6) Pretending to be of higher social status (not exactly 4)
7) Acting like she doesn’t like Walky.
Now all Walky needs to do is become Billie’s chauffeur and confront her about her fear of Ruth, and he will transform into The God of Conquest.
So, you know, in maybe what — 5-6 strips? Tops?
Rescuing Ruth took more than that. Don’t forget acting in Ruth’s place when she was MIA.
It’s a little weird to see Walky so on top of his snark.
Dammit Walky, don’t Walk this up
I think every character’s name should be a verb in this comic.
“Dammit Walky, don’t Danny up this situation with Sal or she’ll Mike you in the face and Billie will have to Joyce.”
Wait, so would Ambering be like Ruthing Joycely?
“Just as long as I don’t have to Joe her down…”
And than Sara will find out and Mike you all, right before Ethan Danny’s the situation with Joyce who Ruth’s him and turns to Dorothy for comfort and Joyce-ing.
You know that he will. It’s Walky.
I understand it now. David Willis makes comics to make me hate men.
He makes comics to make us hate everyone.
Except Dina, of course.
I’m not actually a fan of Dina.
That’s terrible
Sorry, my view on it is that in a cast with THIS many characters, there are others I would much rather spend our limited screen time with.
That’s terrible… yet understandable. Carry on.
We don’t actually spend that much time with Dina though, do we? She only comes onscreen when she’s interacting with one of the main characters; she hasn’t really had her own storyline or plot arc yet.
40 Dinas?
That’s as many as four tens!
And that’s terrible.
You speak blasphemy!
But no. To each his/her/it’s own.
I think you actually get sent to hell for that.
To clarify, is your position on Dina one of dislike or one of apathy?
If the latter, different tastes and all that, I get it. If the former, please know that I officially hate you and all that you stand for (but only in the internet way; I’m sure you’re a perfectly good chum on a personal level)
It’s difficult to have a position on Dina in the first place, since her personality is very subdued and buried under tons and tons of dinosaur facts.
Apathy would be closer. She has her moments, I don’t dislike her, but like I said further up, there are other characters I would MUCH rather spend our limited screen time with.
And Riley.
Hey, Jacob is still completely innocent. That’s one male who hasn’t done anything wrong yet!
Give Willis some time… 😀
Joe hasn’t really done anything other than pervin’ a bit. And Mike’s dad seems swell.
Mhm, Joe is a pretty wholesome perv, all things considered.
You would say that…
Talk about a biased POV! 😛
I’m fine with Mike, but then I’m the one who would like to see a Mike based strip.
Yes! Join us in demanding that Willis forget all this college soap opera nonsense and bring back LAWsome!
But if he DID bring back Lawsome, people would be constantly complaining that he ruined it forever, nothing can compare to the original, and that it was all playskool now. Soon enough he would be forced to turn the entire thing into an homage to the original.
Billie being nice to Walky?
This weekend is weird, man.
She’s not being nice to him, per se. She’s bribing him to mend his relationship with her roommate. …If anything she’s being nice to Sal.
And, it totally has nothing to do with making it less weird when she has sex with one or more of them, or both. Not that she has the hots for either of them. But, it would be totally awkward if they would be hating one another in the middle of a hot, steamy threesom. Not really what’s gonna happen, cause Billie isn’t totally in to that, sure that’s it. But, just in case, cause you never know…
Threesome? Wouldn’t that be incest?
Not as long as they’re not touching, right?
It’s not incest if it’s a threeway.
With a Billie in the middle there’s some leeway.
While it might normally be a crime,
It’s okay if you can say it in rhyme!
A wonderous loophole for all things rude!
Time for me to go band a dude.
DANG.
*bang
Actually she did this before, she just usually presents it as being to her benefit.
For instance, she nudged Walky and Dorothy together. Then, unaware that they were already a couple she encouraged Walky to talk more to her.
It makes sense, since she said she is closer to the Walkertons than her own family – father busy with work, mother busy . . . socializing.
She does this all the time, insult and abuse people and when they have real problems, leap in to do her best (which is frequently pretty inept, but still) to help them out, not just for the Walkertons but for Ruth and Joyce and random girls on their floor and Danny just now (at least she thought she was being helpful).
Jennifer Billingsworth: Head cheerleader. Problem solver. Tsundere for everybody.
Helping the random girls gave her a sense of being back where she was, on top of the heap.
It’s the, eye of the dork
It’s the thrill of the toy
Rising up to buy a collectable
And the last known copy, will be sold in the night,
And the bidding war is being closely watched by the eyeeeeeee,
of the dork
You 2 win the interwebz.
Now be nice and share the prize.
Not gonna happen. Remember,
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
(“Gimme the prize” is an actual song lyric from that, even.)
Is this what other siblings are like? Me and my sister get along fine when I don’t feel like kicking her in the ear…
I’m lucky in that regards, while I do have brothers and sisters, I was raised as an only child.
That means either they were out of the house already when you were born, you were out of the house already when they were born, or you were the only one who was strong enough to come back after being thrown into a pit, Spartan style.
When I say brothers and sisters, I should say half-brothers and half-sisters, my father dipped his wick in many a waxy box and as such they were raised by different mothers.
That may be true, but can I have permission to continue telling people you were thrown into a baby pit and fought your way out? It’ll boost your coolness at least 43% within a week.
Baby Death Pit could do great on TV, especially now that Duck Dynasty is on hiatus.
For some reason, your comment reminded me of this comic
http://oglaf.com/son-of-kronar/2/
Warning: NSFW.
Poor doggies!
I’m the oldest, so naturally my siblings look to me for sage advice and wisdom.
I’m kidding, me and my brothers fought all the time.
People who are unaware of their privilege and refuse to see it are almost worse than those who are aware of it and use it to be a jerk.
At least entertain the idea that you might have it better than someone, you asshat.
I think he knows, but he’s just mad she called their parents something resembling racists. We have no evidence that that is true and it’s certainly not something Walky would even want to theoretically entertain the notion of.
Word of God seems to suggest Sal is right, but I have to agree that it feels a bit premature to really feel resentment. It’s obvious they favor Walky, but not so much as why. Or rather, that the reason why is the skin color. I mean, we should “know” but it is hard to without an example.
I think it was made clear it wasn’t actual skin colour [which is the same swatch] but other traits, like hair straightness… possibly how he aces his classes without effort. He must be a tiger mom’s dream come true.
I’m thinking it might not even be so much the hair, per se – Walky’s is really kinky when it’s short, too – as a nice juicy cocktail of racism and sexism, where the Walkerton parents – who are, after all, a black man and a white woman – find it more acceptable for their son to be black than for their daughter to be black, because of the way their racial and gender stereotypes synergize. Though there may be very little difference in the actual “blackness” of the twins, the standard of required “whiteness” for Sal is much higher because she’s a girl.
They want their children to be a successful and virile black man and a pretty little white girl, and instead they got an awesome and hot black woman and a generically beige boy with no aspirations and insecure in his manhood. So you get Linda working on Walky to try to mold him into Charles, and Charles working on Sal to try to mold her into Linda.
(Disclaimer: Presentation of racial and gender stereotypes in this comment should not be taken as endorsement by the commenter.)
As far as I know, we only have Sal’s statement that she’s darker than Walky. There’s no visual evidence of that in the comic. David could have made her darker, but hasn’t. I don’t recall any other character in the series commenting on it. I suspect this is only Sal’s subjective reality, and isn’t objective reality. But in people’s lives, perception often is reality, and they act upon that belief.
If another character has agreed that Sal is darker, then please link me to it – and I’ll be happy to be wrong.
Yes, the base skin tone for both twins is #cea87e. That is totally not the point. There’s a lot more to the complex of issues that makes up the concept of “race” in our society than the simple RGB value of someone’s skin tone. One of those things – and one that’s been explicitly and visibly brought up in the strip – is hair texture. Sal’s hair grows kinkier than Walky’s, which is a “black” trait, so it may be valid to say that Sal is more black than Walky, even though she’s not actually darker.
Another part of it is simply identification by self and others. And both Sal and Walky agree that he’s whiter than she is. As Walky himself says, she’s black; he’s generically beige.
John, you’re dropping all kinds of science on this thread right now and I love it. The people who are crying foul on Willis because of this storyline really aren’t thinking carefully enough or bothering to consider the intersectional social issues at work in this family dynamic.
Very insightful, John. I hadn’t considered that it could be a cross-section of gender and race.
I seriously love the thoughtful discussion and commentary that occurs in DoA’s comments section. This is awesome. 🙂
Bingo. Well-worded.
Let me tell you as a first generation Chinese American – you have no idea how real tiger moms work.
If you get A’s, the nagging is on for getting an A+.
Get an A+ and you get berated for not getting a perfect score.
Perfect score? You let down generations of your ancestors who worked hard to get the family to the point where you had the opportunity to screw it up that bad. Where’s the extra credit point?
God help you if you don’t get all of those.
Tiger moms aren’t just about grades, tiger moms are about constant unrelenting pressure. If your hair isn’t falling out from the stress and you actually have a social life, you don’t have a real tiger mom.
Of course as an only son, I explained that the real world doesn’t work like that, I will have a real childhood, and that will be that.
I would think that being an only child would have focused that pressure on you even more. I’m glad you managed to salvage a “real childhood” from that situation, though. I have a few friends/acquaintances from the Asian-American community who grew up with a similar value system, many of whom never really questioned it, and while it isn’t really my place to pass judgment on them or their parents I often wonder if they are really well equipped to find happiness for themselves.
Maybe I’m off on this, but I wouldn’t trust word of god too much with any from any series where the author has shown active interest in fucking with their readership.
Yeah, here I am, some white dude, fucking with my readership over a race issue. That sounds like something I should do. It’s not like it’s a delicate subject or anything. Definitely something I should play around with purposefully like an ignorant jackhole.
That got a laugh, although I’m sure you weren’t laughing at the time.
I’m new to the readership, although I went back and read every episode. You write a thoughtful series. I don’t always agree but that’s what makes it interesting. With this one, you’ve certainly engendered some strong feelings. So I’ll put my opinion in on this: there’s been plenty of accusations of racial bias with the parents but I think there’s other equally good possibilities. I personally think it’s much more complex than that. I think it’s equally possible it’s gender bias (if in fact there is any real bias): in many Asian and African cultures, women are devalued, abused and demeaned. The problem with bias &/or discrimination is it can be pretty hard to tell when you’re being discriminated against as to which discrimination is at play. The discriminator rarely tells you why. And there are others, such as social or financial status. A person may think he knows when bias is at play, but it’s not at all clear even when they think they know, what the other person is really thinking. A person may think he’s disliked because (s)he is (insert color, race, religion, sexual orientation here) – when in fact (s)he’s disliked because (s)he’s a jerk.
Siblings find different ways of getting parental attention: one conforms to get attention, the other acts up to get attention. Not even unusual. The father’s comment is a great example of how it could be taken either negatively or positively. He could have been saying “I’m being supportive and encouraging of your choices.” – or he could have been saying, “Yes, anything that makes you look more white, i.e., straight hair, is a good thing.”
But I opt for the former because as a parent he would have wanted to be encouraging to his daughter. I’m dead certain he loves her, whether or not either parent has a favorite. Mothers and daughters often have difficult relationships with each other – and it’s worth noting that acting up has its own consequences in parent/child relationships.
Kudos on your series. It’s a pleasure to read.
“Too bad. You look so pretty when it’s long and straight,” said to someone whose hair is not straight and does not naturally grow straight is NOT positive, supportive, or encouraging. It kind of looks like a compliment if you don’t read too closely what it’s actually saying, but it’s so, so not. He isn’t actually saying that Sal is pretty. He’s saying that she could be pretty, but isn’t because her hair isn’t straight.
Actually, I’m not sure that Willis has ever lied to the readership about his comic. Sure, he likes to make us wail and lap up our sweet, sweet tears, but he doesn’t do it through direct trolling of the readership, but rather by making the comic itself cause us to scream and cry.
There is the futility of questioning the intent of the creator when given their word.
Questioning how well it is shown is another question.
I agree with the points mdw777 made.
I will say from what we have been presented, the reason for the Walkerton parents motivations aren’t shown.
We have evidence of them acting like racists – some of us have been pointing it out since we first met the parents.
I’m not doubting you, but which strips show unequivocal evidence?
Next for the logic pole vault, #5, David Walkerton.
Next event will be “long jumping to conclusions”.
I’m confused – are you two saying that Sal isn’t openly accusing their parents of hating on her because she’s “more black” than Walky (whatever that means)? Because I’d say Walky hasn’t made a single leap anywhere in this comic. He’s simply stated the situation as it factually is.
Can’t speak for Gbh, but there are subtler forms of bias than “card-carrying member of the Klan”, ones that someone may not even realize they’re doing. Walky jumps from 0 to 10, without recognizing that a “2” might exist and be a contributing factor with Sal.
So I guess my theory on it is right, Walky doesn’t understand the subtler forms of racism that are out there. He heard Sal’s accusation and it didn’t fit with his personal definition, so he just lumped it as a petty insult.
Seems like it. Walky refuses to debate shit. He’s the alpha twin. HEAR HIM ROAR.
Walkys’ parents may not be racist but they are playing favourites.
It might also sound like and excuse from a petty criminal.
It isn’t just that it doesn’t fit Walky’s definition. As wrapped up as he is in his own personal world he may have genuinely not observed it.
Mom is just being mom. That’s the way things are. Young people aren’t famous for analyzing things that aren’t bothering them or things that are just facts of life before they were born.
Plus it was happening to somebody else. Another thing not all young people observe.
Plus, Walky doesn’t see everything. If all he’s ever seen is Sal acting out, due to the parental favoritism, then he may simply think that of course they like him better if she’s going to act like that.
Agreed. And maybe he became their favorite because Sal acts out. I’m not even sure the parents’ befuddlement on how to reach Sal (and her equally awkward attempt on pleasing them) instantly equals favoritism. It may simply be a default in that they can at least talk to ONE of their kids. Let’s see how David goes about this. It’s certainly interesting to watch.
Or he could be, you know, right.
People who are right don’t have to resort to hyperbolic misrepresentations.
‘He can’t be right, his method of debate is inferior !’
Sorry buddy, debate club rules don’t transfer over to real life.
Like claiming your twin is whiter than you are to make a point?
this storyline is going to give me a migraine isn’t it
Almost certainly.
But seriously, I get where you’re coming from, and I get that you’ve since confirmed that yes it really is a race issue at play here. It’s just a really strange place to have it show up. And having it brought up the way it was (Sal’s outburst with nothing we’ve actually seen to back it up, other than favoritism which could be ascribed to any number of other things. Personally up until that point I was guessing sexism) makes it something that’s going to raise a lot of red flags until we get more information. Especially from anyone who isn’t reading your comments with regularity.
The idea that my webcomic, which is set on planet Earth, is a “really strange place” for race issues to show up is part of why the migraines.
Didn’t you hear? Racism is over!
You know that’s not what he meant.
Having a set of twins and saying that the parents are racist against just one of them is a very strange way to bring the topic into your comic. Most would think that parental instincts would override any bias the parents would have. Having an interracial couple be racist is also strange, one would think they would be least likely to have problems with race.
Third, all we really have is one persons word and essentially no evidence. You didn’t show us, you told us. I’m not sure why so many commenter’s here are so willing to jump to the conclusion that the Walkerton’s are racist. Saying that you prefer Sal’s hair straight does not automatically equate to even slight racism. My Girlfriend’s Mother told her she prefers when she doesn’t straighten her hair, prefers it curly. Does that make her racially biased in favour of black people? I think that’s too strong a conclusion to draw from so little information.
I understand that you may be trying to “challenge our preconceptions” and all that jazz, but by it’s very nature people are going to find it strange, I would dare say you are doing a poor job otherwise. Now I have enough respect for you to believe that more information and context will be forthcoming, and I’m sure it will be very well written and played out, but I would not get angry or flustered simply because not everyone wants to hop on board with the racism conclusion right away.
Scorning the ones you are trying to reach is usually not a productive method.
What Havoc and Seerow said.
Don’t get me wrong, I think DoA is well written. I even see a place and reason for characters I don’t like.
But so far, without Word of God, the situation can be read many ways.
To many, having this issue within a biological family seems strange.
Look, we’re all along for the ride. The comments show a lot of analysis by readers, which is a pretty good sign of emotional commitment. But we can only go by what we’ve read and what we’ve experienced.
please don’t agree with the guy who said that interracial couples are exempt from racism and that grandmothers preferring curly hair means valued whiteness isn’t a thing
I really hope you’re not referring to me Willis, because I said nothing of the sort. It’s natural for artists to be defensive of their work, but constructing strawmen is hardly an appropriate way to get your message across.
Having an interracial couple be racist is also strange, one would think they would be least likely to have problems with race.
That is so amazingly false. So so amazingly false. It is so fucking ignorant, you have no idea, and I’m tired of this flood of ignorant shit on my website. No more.
Only if you take forum comments seriously. Including this one.
Heh. Even so, keep doing what you’re doing.
People who are in the right have often been known to resort to hyperbolic exaggeration of an accurate description of the situation. Particularly when one is talking about an issue that incenses them (like an accusation that his parents are racists does, whether it’s true or not) or in situations where they’re not in a formal debate and instead are just talking to a dip like Billie.
I think the biggest problem with the whole issue is Walky left the room before anything could be clarified. It caused a lot of confusion in the readers who also are only aware of skin-tone racism and the people who have never heard of racial favouritism amongst children the same skin-tone.
Of course, as you say, this could all be moot and Sal is just looking for an excuse to be hated. However I don’t see that as likely since this is Willis we’re talking about, he’s not really cavalier with topics like this.
I think the main problem is he assumed his readers would know what he was talking about so he felt no need to explain further.
Technically, “People who think they are in the position Sal thinks she is in are always right” is its own form of cavalierness.
all the migraines, every single one
I don’t see how. If you’re going to insult people by calling them Romney voters, you clearly don’t care what they think, so how does it even affect you?
I’m sure, as Romney said many times about himself, he merely misspoke.
Not at that private fundraiser he didn’t. Chosen words.
The fact that he comes across like an alien in a skin suit was all him too.
Beyond what Random832 said, the discussion here seems polite and healthy.
I’ve seen that on the internet before, but not often.
Why not be happy about achieving that on a hot button issue? Especially one that some haven’t experienced?
What’s up with Billie’s hand in that last panel
She’s giving the invisible man a testicular exam maybe? 😛
She’s showing what will happen to Walky if he doesn’t comply.
She’ll… check him for testicular cancer?
Well, that made me scroll back up :p
Walky’s parents are in the Klan??
Quick! Ask him if his dad’s related to Clayton Bigsby!
In other words, Walky, you need to act like someone that isn’t you.
Give him a chance to start his own growth arc. Compared to others in DoA it isn’t a bad one.
Nobody I’ve met ever greets a conversation like this with open arms.
It isn’t like he’s trying to un-Dan Danny.
I would. Then again, I probably wouldn’t have this issue to begin with.
Not everyone is as perfect as you, sadly.
Fair enough. It will require a level of maturity that Walky has yet to show. But I’m willing to wait and see.
A level most 18 year olds don’t have. Those that I’ve met with contentious family relationships don’t really address them in a healthy way until some time in their 20’s.
Back when I was socializing in bars, the days before Christmas and Thanksgiving had many drinking to steel themselves up for dealing with family. Fun atmosphere.
Walky, since Sal was sent to private school and Billie became a cheerleader, seems to have become withdrawn. That’s the story here – that’s why he likes his show so much. Of course he hasn’t looked at his family dynamics.
Also the family dynamics probably look pretty simple to him. Five years ago Sal changed the situation from “less-liked child” to “felon” and subsequently got sent away to school. And then in the years since he’s seen no family dynamics at all except for the occasional shameful remembrance that his twin once went all rebellious and knocked over a store.
And then now all of a sudden Sal turns up and tells him that all that happened wasn’t her fault; it was because their parents hate her because they’re racists. You can see why he would be surprised by this this sudden revelation and not entirely inclined to accept it at face value.
Go Billie.
Second.
It’s finally happened. Walky’s less perceptive than Dan.
He noticed that Sal has indeed told him to his face that she thinks their parents are racists. In fact I’m not sure what part of what he’s said here shows a lack of perception.
He seems to think racism can’t be less subtle than the KKK, for starters.
More subtle, I mean.
He’s lived with his parents this whole time and in this entire time has probably seen hardly a hint of this racism which was supposedly enough to singlehandedly drive Sal to a life of crime. He almost certainly hasn’t seen any hint of it in the last five years, since Sal wasn’t even there and references to her probably were couched in the fact that she’s a criminal now (as opposed to her extreme blackness or whatever).
I strongly suspect that everything that Walky saw could be explained by the theory that he was simply a more obedient child, who easily got b better grades. My whole family is white as paper and guess what? The exact same scenario played out there, though I stopped short of entering a life of crime. My sister was perfect, I said ‘screw that’ and was lazy and imperfect, and guess who was the favored child? ME! No, wait, it was her. I doubt she leapt to the conclusion that this was due to racism. And neither would Walky.
Personally I think he did pretty well in the initial conversation when Sal sprung this little nugget of information on him. He didn’t completely dismiss the claim as pure bullshit Sal made up to justify her own misdeeds, which would be the natural response. But you can hardly expect him to just suddenly accept this hairbrained, insulting, and very convenient-for-Sal excuse for her behavior.
Walky was insensitive to Sal as far as making light of their respective situations (him being the “favorite”, her not so much). However, if she isn’t the favorite, it is more likely due to her own actions than any perceived racism on the part of their parents.
It’s implied it is, but I’ll need more proof before I know it either.
From what I can understand, she was always the “problem child”, right? Well, that means there are two explanations. Either:
A) Her parents really ARE racist.
or
B) She’s always been a “bad seed”, as it were, and thus her parents liked Walky just a bit more, and she didn’t want to admit that she was her own worst enemy and thus came up with the racism explanation.
Both are possible, so we’ll need more info to determine which is correct.
C) Parents tend to favor one child over another. It doesn’t mean they don’t love their other kids, but perfect even handed behavior just isn’t real.
Parents also tend to favor their opposite gendered child and mom runs that marriage for the day to day stuff at least. It was dad who complimented Sal, mom ignored her.
And by “complimented”, you mean “told her she looks pretty when she makes her hair look ‘white’, which is not how it is naturally or how it was at that moment”.
Scapegoating sometimes becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
http://www.angriesout.com/grown19.htm
Are you sure? The one interaction we have seen between Sal and her parents is their father saying ‘I like your hair straight.’ Curly ‘black’ hair like is Sal’s natural locks are seen as very urban and black.
Everyone who’s experienced that kind of discrimination immediately knew exactly what was going on and why. Everyone else squints their eyes and says stuff like “oh we can’t know for SURE” while voting for Mitt Romney or something.
Uh well looks like it’s canon. Bit of a subtle nudge there, eh Mr. the Willis Guy?
I dunno. I’m black and even though I’ve never experienced it first hand I understand that it’s an issue. Still, I just assumed it was his personal preference than being racist although it can be taken either way. I’m not a squinty Romney voter though <:T.
Agreed. I voted for Obama twice – but by David’s definition – I may be squinty-eyed. There’s other types of discrimination, which can make it more complex as to what’s being dealt with. And maybe the person (either the discriminator, or the discriminatee) is just a plain jerk, and it’s not racial at all. In the family dynamics specifically with Sal, well, she’s been busy driving a wedge between herself and her parents for some time, in effect driving them closer to Walky by her own actions. Whether she sees it that way or not, is definitely a different story. That may not be the story David’s trying to write here, but there are other interpretations still possible.
Okay, obviously a strongly felt issue.
But I think it’s kind of a wide gulf between experienced it and instinctively knows and code word using Republican.
I mean, from the outside and not seeing only interaction with one person (Sal), how would this be seen?
Hard to know another person’s motives, but when you see interactions with many people a pattern can be seen. Speaks worse of all blacks, always nervous around, etc. no matter how educated, what the dress, individual demeanor.
But liking or favoring one person can have a lot of motives. So I don’t know how it should be immediately identified by all.
Also I think that people who have experienced discrimination sometimes use it as a go to explanation.
I can’t absolutely say that I don’t discriminate, because I don’t have a Mike to thoroughly make me examine my unconscious. But I can say as a Chinese-American growing up in the Midwest in the ’70s I’ve been discriminated by all other groups – including first generation and old world Chinese, other Asians, and all minorities.
Even with that, I’m willing to confirm racism/colorism as the motive.
Agreed with everything you said, except I’m still not convinced it’s racial. If it is, I think David needs to drive the point home later.
So what you’re saying is, that everyone that hasn’t personally experienced that kind of discrimination is FORCED by their inexperience and your excluded middle to be racist and vote for Romney.
For all the people who grew up in white households, and also all the single children everywhere, I’m a little offended.
Sal said already that this has been happening for as long as she could remember – even before the crime spree.
Racism doesn’t have to be easily visible to exist. It’s an unconscious bias thing. Micro-aggressions that build up over time. Harvard runs this thing called the Implicit Association Test, you can take it online, where you have to sort pictures of people in different categories with “good” and “bad.” Most people, it turns out, take longer putting “black” with “good” and “white” with “bad than they do placing them the other way round. Even black folk.
It’s not about intentional racism, it’s about how society conditions us to discriminate, even if we don’t mean to. Our society favors white people, and that leaks into everything. Even Sal’s relationship with her parents.
She’s a racist, he doesn’t owe her anything. She should apologize for even having such ugly thoughts.
Certainly you jest, good sir!
Italy did a study. Everyone is far more racist than they think they are. Light skinned people feel more sympathy for other light skins. Dark skinned people feel more sympathy for other dark skins. And everyone felt sympathetic toward the purple skin.
I haven’t met that many Vikings fans outside of Minnesota.
Those unconscious impulses are interesting. Don’t know what can be done about it beyond striving for self awareness and looking at personal motivations. Hard to do continuously while looking for proper adjustments.
It’s particularly hard to like Viking fans. At best they are Minnesota nice.
Answer me that, Mr. Green Lantern!
“Because you’re you”. Pretty well nails it.
Grow up Walky. At least on this point.
Nobody grows instantly from one comment.
Except for Anakin Skywalker. But he grew up evil.
I wonder where Sensedog and CW Roden have been for the past few story arcs. Must’ve just joined if can’t see the way her parents treat Sal is not based on what Sal did, rather Sal did what she did based on the way her parents treated her.
…I’ve actually kept up since the first DOA comic, thank you.
Regardless of Sal’s motivations, it doesn’t excuse her own actions. It also cannot have helped her relationship with her parents; Willis has since posted a comment indicating that they are, in fact, racist. I just did not automatically assume that they were. My bad.
Not your bad. In real life, there are other possibilities. You kept your mind open until told otherwise. If the parents are racist, it says something very dark (no pun intended) about the reasons for their marriage. One or both of them must really hate themselves to be racist and yet marry outside their own race.
I’m DorkEye the Sailor Man,
I Live in a Garbage—OKI’llstopnow….
Oh, so instead of Danny Dannying it up we get Walky Dannying it up.
And somehow the worst Friday cliffhanger to date is preserved even with a 7-day schedule.
Damn.
Duuuuuuude you are so on, that is exactly what walky is doing.
Actually I’m guessing this is a growth arc, so this is the opposite of Danning it up.
He’s just been told to seriously consider that his parents have some racism. Tell me how well that conversation would have gone with you at 18, assuming you got along with and liked your parents.
It should go through some denial at first, some background thinking and reconsidering events in a different light. Afterwards he would have a more serious conversation with Sal.
But yeah, just immediately agreeing that a cornerstone of your rather young life is so fundamentally flawed would be very strange.
Figured I’d give man in black a hand tonight.
https://31.media.tumblr.com/368f720e5b650431bbd6bf968555e43f/tumblr_myi49q0QRy1rgnbbgo1_1280.png
Billie, you are a good friend and a good person. Walky, get off your defensive high horse and listen.
“Billie, you are a good friend and a good person.”
Let’s not go crazy here.
Alright, alright. You do have a point.
Billie, you are at the present moment making decisions that align with that which a good friend and a good person would make. I commend you for them, please keep it up. And recall that self-examination is good for you too.
She’s a good person underneath it all. What with helping her floormates (whom she barely know) with their miscellaneous problems, seeking out Ruth, and that speech about how in high school she always had her friends’ backs with regards to abusive boyfriends and preventing date rape.
I agree. Billie knew what to do when Joyce got drugged, helped run things while Ruth was missing and then saved her, tried to help Walky get with Dorothy (even though he already was)… She’s got her issues but I think “good person and good friend” isn’t too much of a stretch.
Before Walky and Dorothy were together, she made sure to push them together. She saw their interest (Dorothy did ask Billie if they were a couple) and acted.
This is bound to be a barrel of lols.
That’s where they are, man how did they not notice anything that was going on around them?
The cafeteria they’re in is pretty damn large, with seating areas segregated by the food-getty-places in the middle of it. Nothing was going on “around them.” It was going on dozens of feet away, behind walls and beyond hundreds of yacking people. You probably gotta yell to be heard.
Like amber was after she flipped over that table?
Arguing with the author over what happened in his own comic is going to be a thing with you, isn’t it.
Im Sorry , I’m naturally a smart ass , what you say goes I understand that
Even if they did see Amber lose her cool and flip the table, I don’t think Walky and Billie are even that familiar with Amber. They might have had a moment of “huh, that was weird”, and given how many days worth of comics this lunch is already taking that hardly seems like a needful use of panels.
Walky saw Amber because he had pizza with Joyce and Ethan at Galasso’s.
And even if they heard the table flip, they probably would have looked over just in time to see (if they could see) that a table was flipped. If you didn’t see the actual action, it would have been a non-event. Kinda like, “Oh, that was a really loud noise, is something happening. [no more loud noises occur] I guess nothing is going on. Back to what I was doing.” Unless “OMG CALL AN AMBULANCE!” or “FIGHTFIGHTFIGHTFIGHT!” happens after random loud cafeteria noise, no one is going to do anything about it.
Personally, I like it, but then I’m the treasurer of the Make David Willis Suffer Foundation.
Some how that avatar fits the comment way too perfectly… :/
A little note from someone who went to a grossly overcrowded massive school with an equally massive, spacious and croweded cafeteria: A huge amount of people chatting all at the same time, even if most of them use inside voices, tends to be LOUD.
I don’t doubt that Sal’s been through discrimination, but does that give her the right to break the law? I feel as though we’re giving her some kind of pass just because she had a bum childhood. Last I checked, not everyone breaks the law because their parents weren’t good to them.
That doesn’t mean she’s wrong about her parents being racist. And that’s kind of the point here.
Ever hear of the “affluence defense”. It’s when a person gets out of a felony offense just because they are rich, and thus don’t know the consequences.
My dad and I agree that it is the stupidest clause ever. And we are on opposite sides of the aisle.
I don’t think the comic has ever implied Sal was justified in breaking the law or should get some kind of pass for it. Heck, these past few days have shown the long terms effects her robbery had on Amber’s psyche.
The right and the reason are two different things.
The legal system deals with where your rights ended, for the most part.
The reason is explaining the cause. That has nothing to do with moral or legal right. It isn’t even a justification. It explains what set off the chain of events in the Rube Goldberg machine of a person’s psyche.
This comic seems not about justifying Sal for what she did at 13, but Billie trying to get Walky to grow into a better brother going forward, who could help his sister with her current issues (which evidently grew from how she reacted to their parents), which seems good for Sal and Walky’ s futures, including both their relations with others — plus what Ourorboros said.
Good discussions. Also, Walky, like any other kid whose parents have been good to him, is having a hard time realizing that his parents do have problems. If Dorothy can stand up to her parents over something she believes in, Walky needs to as well.
Apropos of nothing, but I feel the title of this installment should have been “Hyperbolic Misrepresentation.”
He may be using hyperbole, but he’s not misrepresenting. Sal really did call his parents racists to his face. The subtle details of which membership cards they have based on that are irrelevant.
Here’s the comic in question: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/princess/
There’s even evidence that Sal’s accusations of racism do, in fact, make conversations between them awkward. Walky is hitting on all points here.
Also I still agree with walky that the thought of his parents are racist tword there own daughter who is slitely lighter skin then her father is still absurd, but they should still talk about why she thinks that, you know without either one of them storming off angerly, even if there more hard headed then a bull.
You’re ignoring Word of Willis. You stay there in your denial bubble with your fingers in your ears then if that makes you happy.
newllend said that the thought of his parents being racist is absurd.
Word of God is recent, not seen by everybody, and does not speak of Walky’s observations or state of mind.
Look, Walky sees a biracial marriage. He also sees a sister who acted out criminally. Favoritism occurs in families without racial basis – either way to a kid (they are twins) Walky had (to our knowledge) no reason to see anything other than some favoritism.
It’s just not where a kid in that situation would naturally go.
That Word of God isn’t all that recent. It’s been made clear by Word of God since their parents first showed up.
And if I were Walky I wouldn’t believe a word of it either. Sal, as you noted, started acting like a criminal. Once you do that, nobody needs any other reason to justify favoring the other sibling more.
Anyone want to point me to this WoW? I usually only read the comic and occasionally get into the comments, so I have no idea where to look for it.
Intraracial racism and colorism do exist. You don’t have to be white to value ‘whiteness’ or ‘white’ features.
Sal’s claim is a big one, but I’m not quick to not listen to somebody elses side of the story,that’s why I agree with Billie, I want to know why she robbed that store and I want to know why she thinks her parents are racis , for that reason Im hopeing for a nother flash back soon or origin story please
DAMN YOU WILLIS! I want to know wtf is going on with Danny and Satan!
Stabbing.
Planning Amber’s DNA.
He IS Satan, after all. If he can’t have her…
Billie gets it. Probably because she’s been there herself.
How did she end up one of the more reasonable/responsible characters again?
Because for all that she’s an obnoxious, emotionally stunted brat, she’s at least self-aware about it.
Have you seen the competition?
There is a reason why this comic is named what it is.
Question for the Willis: Did Sal straighten her hair in the old universe? I don’t remember seeing it, but it could have been off-screen.
Hey, Walky suffers from social problems, right? Maybe that’s the reason his parents paid more attention to him.
But are the parents the cause of the social problems?
Yeah, he seems like his parents never let him grow up.
“Let him”.
Well mom is overbearing and controlling, which stifles growth. A person doesn’t grow without making decisions and facing consequences on their own. Preferably some of this is done in the training wheel period we call the teen years.
But teenage rebellion is in part asserting your place to do so. If Walky failed to do this, that’s on him.
I think it’s been noted that Dorothy is a bit of a milder version of his mom.
I just tried to put my hand in the same position as Billie’s. It is awkward and not really comfortable.
Weird, ‘cuz Billie’s poses here were ones I acted out myself. You can’t sit cross-armed and open one of your palms to gesture?
Its turning my hand like that when it becomes uncomfortable. Though I did try it with the hand that had a sprained wrist years ago. That might have been the source of discomfort.
I actually make similar hand gestures all the time when I’m talking about something that agitates me. My wife makes fun of it and refers to it as “The Claw”.
BILLIE AT HER WINNINGEST AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH ILU BILLIIIEEEEE
Sal’s parents are proud of their ethnic heritage.
And also proud supporters of the Martinsville Hoods.
Listening: Pretending to agree with people so they’ll stop talking about whatever nonsense they’re insisting on being wrong about,
Damn it, Walky. You don’t have to agree if you think that she’s wrong, but you could at least give her the credit of acknowledging that the thing she thinks is a thing that exists.
Sal thinks your parents are unfair to her. This is not an idle thought, but a considered opinion based on many years of experiences which you do not necessarily share and working theories as to why it could be happening to which you have no answer other than “No no my parents love me how could they do anything wrong”.
I don’t think you can possibly think you two have nothing to talk about. I think either you think if you throw a huge enough fit every time she brings that up she’ll stop feeling treated unfairly. Or you do not care how much your sister is suffering as long as she doesn’t do it in front of you.
You’ve got to understand: Sal’s his sister.
Nobody takes their sisters seriously. That’s crazy talk. Just like everything that comes out of a sister’s mouth.
*says a brother*
Hum. That gravatar does unpleasant things to my comment.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Your first comment is overly-generalized nonsense either way.
Yes, that tends to be how jokes work.
Apologies.
Agreeing that your parents suddenly have always been racist isn’t something that anybody is likely to do, for the sake of argument or not. For some odd reason people tend to be a bit protective of their parents, particularly when they’re on friendly terms with them.
Billie! <3 <3
This is the first time I've genuinely liked her (not being familiar with the iterations of her character in alternative continuities).
I like her every time I look at her marvelous chest, but that makes me a bad person.
Even knowing that she’d think I was a hopeless nerd who wasn’t even worth acknowledging, Billie is hands-down my favorite character in this strip. She’s flawed and she’s fallible (and oh so very much of both), but she’s just so human.
Okay… *deep breath* finally out of the “universe shitting on amber”-fest that’s been going on for the past few pages. Back to Walky. Alright.
So the comic started with what were presented with a clearly-defined set of “good guys” and “bad guys” and it turns out the bad guys aren’t all bad (OK, there’s Blaine and Faz) and the good guys have their rough spots. Yet the absolutists among the fen keep trying, bless ’em.
I would not put it past Willis to somehow (lord, I have no idea how!) — somehow redeem Faz in this universe, if not Blaine.
Either to dismiss her, just like their mother clearly does, or parrot her foot in the mouth claim are the only options he can think of?
Maybe not the Klan, but Walkeron, your parents carry cards to a club you don’t want to make yourself or Dorothy a part of, ’cause they clearly didn’t teach you, they PROGRAMMED you.
Dealing with somebody whose only line is “Our parents are horrible racists and that’s the only reason they like you and you have to AGREE WITH ME” limits your options somewhat.
To be fair, it’s kinda hard to argue that your interracial parents are racists without any irrefutable evidence.
Not really, there are degrees of racism, and sexism, and homophobia. And minorities of every type are capable of bigotry, against the majority AND their own minority groups.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s a little like the whole, “I’m not racist, I have black friends!” mentality. Not really a valid argument.
Don’t lose hope Willis. Some of us are with you on this storyline.
To be fair to Walky, how would you feel if you were told that not only were your parents racist but racist to your own sibling? It’s a lot to take in.
Of course Walky is leaping over logic like Frogger on cocaine so I can’t really defend him on that.
What I’m gathering from the comments is that a large amount of the readers have as limited a view of what racism is as Walky does.
And to those readers: Bigotry and bias are not always done knowingly.