Since the reply option isn’t showing up on the relevant post: Kaci, as a Mormon myself, I completely agree. But that doesn’t mean I won’t poke fun at my religion now and again. ^.^
Well I know that from a few academic perspectives Mormonisn isn’t actually Christianity. The inclusion of a new holy book is enough to just make it another Abrahamic religion.
Of course the problem is you get people using that as a point of discrimination or something similar – I’m not Christian myself, and personally I’d probably still classify Mormonism as a Christian denomination.
Assuming you define Christianity as the worship of Jesus Christ as the son of God, Mormonism would be Christianity, but it would be a different branch in the same ranking as Catholicism and Protestantism (is that the right word?).
Like how biological classification works; Religion is the encompassing “Everything”, Monotheism is the Kingdom, Christianity is the Phylum, Catholicism, Protestantism(?), and Mormonism would be the Orders, and so on as it branches out from there.
“Dad, Dad, the flames have turned into a pile of kittens that are all chanting the five secret names of God backwards!”
“Now, now, let’s take it to… *Listens and tries to decipher.* Alorgisar”
Oh dear lord xD well technically no and yes, because jesus became god’s son only after he died. I think. I’m not really jewish xD so technically yes, and no.
Actually, no. The “whole idea” behind the Immaculate Conception does not directly have to do with Jesus – it refers to his mother, Mary, who was born without Original Sin.
Well, you can’t really untangle Jesus from the equation considering he’s the one being conceived. Mary’s a virgin who is pregnant with Jesus because God has the power to impregnate women that way. All 3 are integral to the conception shenanigans.
And I’m moderately sure Mary being sinless is a Catholic thing. Doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the Immaculate Conception, given that Protestants don’t have a sinless Mary but keep the Immaculate Conception idea.
It does, actually. According to the scriptures, God reached down and prevented the transfer of Original Sin to Mary so that she would spiritually fit to give birth to Jesus. Jesus’ own conception is called the Incarnation, in any case.
I call shenanigans. A cursory glance at the intro of the four gospels reveals no such thing. You’ll need to provide a reference to overcome my skepticism.
The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Immaculate Conception refers to the sinless state of Mary. Pope Pius IX proclaimed this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on December 8, 1854.
… though…. Christians who reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception maintain that there is no biblical support or basis for it.
And that is true. … so if you are a practicing Roman Catholic, you got to believe what the Church says. If you are not one, then you got a choice.
So both sides are right!
Actually, Original Sin isn’t in the bible, it’s one of the things the Catholic church added in to their theology in the years since it was codified.
So, the scriptures don’t say anything about it, because the idea didn’t exist yet, or to be charitable, hadn’t been extrapolated yet, when they were written.
Humanity are all Gods Children. – God the Father of all mankind.
God made Adam and Eve. – Adam and Eve are therefore Siblings
God made Eve from Adam’s rib. – Eve is Adam’s gender swapped Clone. – Eve is Adam’s Daughter. – Eve has two Fathers.
Eve and Adam had children, – They had sex, it was Parent-child and sibling incest.
All there children are simultaneously their own Uncle-Nephew or Aunt-Niece.
as there was no one else to marry Adam’s Sons married Eve’s Daughters, Seeing as they were all siblings, The entire human race is the product of incest,
Secondly you are the cousin of everyone else in the human race.
To all of you who are married and/or have had relations,
Congratulations you have loved your cousin you red neck you.
Two identical (or identical gender swapped) clones having children could only produce the same genetics that existed in the original. So not only is everyone really incesting it up, but everyone who doesn’t look exactly alike is a mutant.
This is actually a point of discussion I really enjoy:
When the bible says God created man, was it procreation or invention?
That is, are men literal children of god, and that at some point man would mature into another god. Or were men invented by god, similar to how a man would invent some kind of sentient artificial intelligence.
@A5PECT – In my opinion A God or Gods would create an Intelligent species by way of evolution. Seeing as it is far easier to make minor changes over time, than it is to make an entire genome from scratch. The latter being harder in two points, one that the God/Goddess would have to fully understand the base-4 programming language of DNA and RNA, second that it would be much harder to tailor the DNA to survival within an ecosystem it has not evolved with.
Regardless of either Origin, There is no reason for a God/Goddess to create an intelligent species unless they intend to Ascend/Evolve that species into a new generation of Gods/Goddesses.
I mean think about it, The universe has entropy decay. The universe just after the big bang had many stars and galaxies. Since then the stars and galaxies have become fewer in number of new stars and the galaxies have drifted into clustered strings, there is a lot of empty cold space in the universe now. Eventually Entropy decay combined with the last sun going dark will mean, that matter will continue to get colder and colder, till atoms disperse into particles, and particles disperse into quantum particles, eventually the manifolds of these particles will also unravel and separate, and sometime after that the dimensions of space-time will also no longer have the energy to hold together and everything will dissolve back into the quantum foam of the void.
This end awaits all intelligent life that can’t technologically or spiritually evolve to the point of becoming what we mortals term “Gods”.
Here are the Goals we need to evolve to.
1. Being able to escape this reality for another reality,
2. Travel Backwards and forwards through time
3. Travel to alternate realities, universes, Multi-verses.
4. Create a Universe from scratch by causing a big bang,
5. Being able to customize the physics of the universes we live in or create.
6. Understand Base-4 DNA and RNA such that we can program life from scratch.
7. Able to Design our own biological and technological programming languages.
If we can’t evolve to do all of these 7 goals we fail.
and we will die with the rest of this universe.
We become Gods or we die, there are no other alternatives, and no second chances.
My concept of incest can be best described with a quote from a very funny Harry Potter fanfiction: “If you know how closely related you are to someone, you’re too closely related to date.”
Well that basically exempts the entire human race for me.
Seeing as Science has traced the Y chromosome[Father] and the mitochondria[Mother] back to two single individuals as the potential parents of the entire human race.
Second
Went to a singles dance with some cousins from my father’s side, they introduced me to a girl to dance with, her reaction upon meeting me, “Cousin !” she was from my mother’s side of the family.
“Dammit Hank, I’ve told you not to call me anymore!”
“But God, it’s raining outside and I don’t have an umbrella and I’m going to get all wet-”
“Alright, fine, I’ll help you this time.”
“Just once I’d like to get through my meal without someone calling me. I JUST calmed Einstein and Hitler down enough to get them to apologize to calling my kid a traitor. We got a game in a few hours, people!”
And yea, that’s clear passive-aggressiveness laced codependant control baloney if I ever saw it (and, directly and indirectly, I’ve seen a LOT of it) The Browns can convince themselves this has anything to do with God rather than having to let go of the umbilical cord all they want…
Something tells me Joshua and Joyce’s other brothers got tired of being stonewalled and shut down all the time, and that’s why Joshua brought up that he was only here for the big game, and why Joyce teased him about never being around.
He and the others probably pray to God a lot, asking to throw their parents a mulligan, for fear Mr.and Mrs.Brown’ll unwittingly reject the Kingdom of Heaven once they both pass on by doing something like this the second they catch wind of something at the pearly gates that doesn’t conform to their fixed ideas.
I wonder what Joshua and Joyce’s other brothers are doing with their lives?
Is this… a real thing that happens? The “take it to God” thing where the parents just talk down to the kid? I learned really fast not to question anything about religion, in my own house, if I didn’t want a 120db lecture on the subject. Not exactly the same, but still negative reenforcement.
Anyone have a “right” way to go about this? I honestly can’t think of a way to defend archaic things like not fraternizing with atheists. At least not without relying on fiat.
Whatever you do, remain calm. It gives you a chance when they are being loud and unreasonable to point out that you are calm and that they too should relax and discuss this like rational adults. Be patient, wait for them to waiver, then hammer hard your point. It is important to remain in controll, both of the conversation and yourself.
I’ll admit, my parents never did such a thing. My dad actually scoffed at all the praching (preaching + praying) that went on during the pastoral prayer at the church my family goes to. But it’s definitely something that goes on. I resonate with this situation far more than the situation in the last strip.
Which, you know, is *not* the worst way to deal with problems. There are much better ways for sure. But praying together and holding each other…passive aggressive or not…is a good way to forgive and move on for the majority of stupid family spats. Like this-hopefully Joyce learns to continue thinking on her own.
I want to emphasize again that I don’t approve how passive-aggressive the father is, but the method itself is okay. It’s probably extremely comforting for families with faith.
I only have a problem with this method personally when families do this for illnesses. “Oh honey, let’s not go to the doctor. Let’s PRAY the disease away.”
It’s looking like they’re using that method to make the fact their daughter won an argument with them, due to their judging someone without even trying to get to know them, just go away…Using it as a shield, you could say.
In doing so, they let Joyce down. They let her down real bad, and past “fundies SUXXXX0RZ!!!” arguements, that’s where the problem lies: A pedestal has been broken.
Yep, Letters of the Preston Family all over again, the Middle Ages having been over with for centuries be damned.
Doesn’t even end with Religion or anti-progressive beliefs, either. We’re talking about Manipulative Reasoning 101 here, because sonder doesn’t get pyramids built for some big shot’s glory.
it’s not too late. There’s more comics in this arc.
Of course there’s also a chance that she’ll think that God is telling her not to abandon her friends just because her parents think it’s the right call.
Maybe, just maybe, that mother lets her kid have friends over, so she can take time to relax from taking care of her kid the best she can? What if she’s a really good (AND hot) mom.
Yeah, these are the kind that accept you having a different religion and hate you, but overall just leave you alone about it. I’ve met the kind that tries to force their views upon you without consent.
Though honestly, I just find it hilarious when one of those southern preachers comes down to my school and starts telling people that they’re going to hell. Seeing that stereotype just cracks me up every time.
There’s two kinds of gettin’ prayed over, and lemme tell ya, this is the wrong one. It’s actually kinda comforting when you asked somebody to do it, but when you didn’t, even if you knew it was coming ’cause everybody else in your youth group was getting prayed at or something, it goes from comforting straight into they-are-touching-me-and-I-am-not-happy-with-that.
You know, this bothers me, because the verse at the end “fellowship in darkness” is specifically referring to marriage. It’s a part of the Bible discussing marriage and relationships, and it’s saying, “Hey, generally marrying someone who doesn’t also believe in God is going to make your marriage potentially not work, and I don’t think it’s a very good idea.”
It is not about who you should and shouldn’t be friends with.
So, I just read 2 Corinthians Chapter 6 (where the quote seems to be from), and it very much does not seem to be specifically talking about marriage. The Browns are not speaking out of context.
“Don’t become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That’s not partnership; that’s war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God’s holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives.”
A lot of people interpret that in the context of marriage, but that’s not the only way that passage can be read.
But we’re looking at multiple translations of an ancient text (though most translations are actually translations of translations) so it’s possible that some of the translations refer to it in the context of marriage and some as a general partnership. Either way, since we’re not reading the original, it’s really hard to say what it meant definitively. (especially since there wasn’t punctuation in the way we know it now, languages shift over time and slang we don’t know was used.)
I initially used the King James version, since that’s what I grew up with as a Mormon kid. New International Version was more or less the same. If you can find a version that contradicts my, please post the reference here.
At any rate, Paul considered marriage largely meaningless, since he believed the Second Coming was imminent. It would be strange to interpret anything he wrote as applying to only marriage unless he specifically and explicitly said so.
Once there is a customary reading, all other readings are mistaken. That’s why you should not be reading the Bible yourself but rather let a preacher explain it to you. It avoids falling into all the mistaken readings and makes faith so much more simple that it’s not funny.
Christians misinterpret verses ALLLLL THE TIMEEEE to justify their hatred. As someone who grew up in a home very similar to this, it’s… very believable LOL.
I would agree, but I got the impression that Joyce’s parents are funding her education and retain the power to yank her out of school (which is why she didn’t want to tell the authorities or her parents about being attacked at the party). I’m guessing that they’re going to secure from her a pledge to stop being Dorothy’s friend before they leave, which she will give in order to be able to stay at school. She may even try to obey for a while out of guilt, but I think eventually she’ll make her own decision.
Ouch. That hits Joyce triply. She’s blasphemous for claiming that atheists can be good people and have a moral center, an atheist by association because clearly so much as being nearby an atheist means you share their beliefs, and is wearing Monkey Master stuff. Now we just need to have her secretly be vampiric or something for the full set!
[Note: the entirety of this post, save for the disclaimer that you are currently reading, is meant facetiously, and any resemblance to offensive and ignorant claims is meant in the spirit of parody.]
Sarah called the Dexter and Monkey Master stuff idol worship
Joyce’s parents think that being friends with an atheist is Blasphemy.
QED
Joke is proven.
It’s a type of ritual magic. Which is really weird, because if they saw someone doing exactly the same thing but with some other deity they’d flip the hell out and try to burn them for witchcraft, but despite one of the ten commandments being not to use God that way they do.
That’s nuts; it looks exactly like something you’d do whilst training a dog, to make it submit to your will.
Doing something like this to a vulnerable young person is just abusive, and close enough to brainwashing as makes no difference.
Yeah… even when I was particularly devout, the “laying on hands” practice made me as uncomfortable as hell. Not to mention that it tended to feel forced and pretentious.
This type of prayer is called “praying over” someone or “laying on of hands,” and several forms of Christianity practice it, including mine. (I’m a Mormon.) Laying on of hands, as I know it, is a way of imparting blessings to a specific person. It may be a blessing of healing, or a blessing of comfort and counsel. In my church, priesthood holders also lay on hands when giving the gift of the Holy Ghost to complete a baptism, or when setting someone apart for a calling (volunteer position) in the church.
In my church we believe that God can communicate with each individual. In the context of a blessing by laying on of hands, ideally the speaker listens for God’s guidance in what to say. (Unfortunately, Joyce’s parents do not seem to be listening.) And the person receiving the blessing can listen as well, to understand the words being spoken and discern whether they are from God.
Holy Ghost=bad English translation of several other bad translations, basically just supposed to reference the incorporeal power of “God” over one’s soul.
*Please note the phrase in that entire run-on sentence I have any faith in is “bad English translation”
No. To covet means “to desire what belongs to another.” It’s like envy or jealous. You don’t need to go so far as wanting to steal it. It also means “To wish for earnestly”. So what Plasma Mongoose is saying is that people think “Joyce wants dat ass”/”Joyce really likes looking at Dotty’s bottom”/”Joyce is physically attracted to Dorothy’s clunes”
Something her parents would do well to remember. Just because Joyce is an atheist, doesn’t mean that they can conveniently forget that they are supposed to be nice to her ANYWAYS.
Yet weirdly enough there is nothing to tell parents to be good to their kids, except maybe for the parable of the prodigal son which is questionable at best towards the good kid who wasn’t a wayward asshole.
Oh, they care a LOT.
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.”
Wait, isn’t placing the hand on the head is indicative of blessing or exorcism, not prayer?e
Or are they suggesting that Dorothy is possessing Joyce? And just wait till they meet Ethan.
They’re trying to seal Joyce’s soul in her body cos as everybody knows, atheists, like gingers have no souls and as such, they will want to drain Joyce’s like a HP dementor. 😛
Actually, the Browns are secretly androids built by Jesus after his resurrection to await the second coming. Their hands act as a direct line to the Big Guy, kinda like Inspector Gadget’s hand-phone, except using telepathy instead of sound which is why they don’t put their hands on her ears.
I will be glad when the story arc involving Joyce’s parents is over. I’ve really enjoyed almost all of this comic, but Ethan and Joyce’s parents just piss me off. (Hey there’s another thing they have in common, shitty parents. Maybe it IS meant to be after all.)
good point and as a matter of fact do you think Joyce’s parents will be for or against Joyce trying to lead a gay man back to the “straight and narrow” and will his parents agree. And what happens when they find out he’s Jewish?
Depends entirely on what Christian sect they’re a part of. I was raised Baptist, and the Jews were always considered God’s Chosen People. … when they got talked about, anyway, which wasn’t often.
“Jesus loves me that I know, For the bible tells me so. *our lines are tied up at the moment, please wait for someone to answer your call* yeeeeeess jesus loves me. Yes jesus loves me.
“Stick shifts and safety belts, bucket seats have all got to go, when we’re driving in the car, it makes my baby seem so far. I need you here with me, not way over in a bucket seat; I need you to be here with me, not way over in a bucket seat.”
There are parents who’ve beaten kids to death with rubber hoses because they thought it was God’s will and that doing so would “purify” them. This is nothing compared to some whackjobs out there!
Whether in heaven or wandering the Earth, the verified existence of ghosts would certainly put a crimp in the blanket denial of anything supernatural to which many (at least many of the most vocal) atheists subscribe, you must admit. 😉
Admittedly I don’t believe in ghosts either (except for Casper, of whom we have decent film footage), but yeah, just having ghosts be real doesn’t imply that god (or God, or Thor, or Kali) exists too. Just because Santa Claus is real doesn’t mean wendigos are.
As you can see from this chart, Faz has grown 2.4 mm since last family gathering
-Well Fazzette’s bust has become a Booming C-cup. Fazzette will try to increase this size in time.
It’s creepy how controlling this looks, because they have their hands on her, they are the ones talking, and she’s just passively standing there while they talk to God for her and tell her what to do. 🙁
Pretty much. I swear, it’s freaking cultish indoctrination, the only reason fundie Christians aren’t called a cult unless they’re as OUT THERE as Westboro Baptist is because it’s so widely accepted.
Also, somewhere in this room her brother is watching and going, “Wow, somehow I didn’t realize how ridiculous we look when we do that. Let’s not ever do this again.”
YEAAAAAAH. The best prayers ARE passive aggressive, as I figured out when I almost started a coup against my health teacher in my fundie high school (long story). I agreed to apologize in front of the class, and I did…although it took every ounce of self-control to go through with it and not punch her out in the middle of the prayer she did beforehand.
Very few things tick me off more than prayer as a form of judgment and gossip.
You have a point there. It always amazes me how much our boy Willis has changed from Roomies! to now. I’m personally of the opinion that he ate some fruit off the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Yeah, but I think Willis wants to leave her as a Christian to keep the cast more diverse and make her character arc more unique. How does Joyce keep her faith after all this and become more mellow and open-minded?
Well, over the course of this comic Joyce has already become more open minded than she was before she came to college (she’s okay with Dorothy’s atheism, allowed herself to geek out over a cartoon, and has found out that gays are people too), so Joyce might just keep going down that road for now.
Actually, leaving aside that she’s based on Willis, you realize there have been -plenty- of people that were as-if-not-more religious when compared to Joyce that are now prominent activists in the atheist community?
Also plenty – if less visible – people who are religious, but nonjudgemental. They just don’t get any publicity, by their very nature. I would have put myself in this category for most of my life. (Have left the church, but do not consider myself a dedicated atheist)
Probably past when you’ll see this, but what the hell. I fully recognize that (most of my family is that way) But I was specifically replying to a comment saying Joyce would -never- end up an atheist, the implication being that she is too fervent a believer, so that’s the claim my post was after.
Heavenly Father, we just come before you in prayer, and we just ask that we can just take our hands off of this person after a little while because we just don’t like touching people this much. And we just pray this in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Sounds not unlike me as a child in Church. “Peace be with you, but please don’t touch me because you have sweaty old man hands and you’ve been coughing a lot.”
It could be worse. There are those prayers where everybody holds hands, and then, once the prayer is over, everybody squeezes each other’s hands as a way of saying, “Let go of me oh god let go of me.”
Ugh, man, the round robin prayers were the worst. Just when you think it’s over and you can get yourself out of the horrible, back-aching position you just put yourself in so you can get a hand on the person’s shoulder through everyone else’s arms, someone else starts a 5 minute prayer that says exactly the same thing as the person before them. And your hands get all sweaty and you stop focusing on the prayer and start focusing on how you never want to be around for someone moving away and leaving your youth group or small group ever ever again.
Actually, I’ll bet that Joyce will make this decision despite what her parents are trying to pull. If she’s paying attention, she might well realize that her parents are intentionally trying to play mind games with her – shaping their prayer to make her feel guilty rather than making an honest prayer for guidance.
For reference, Hank is paraphrasing II Corinthians 6:14. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” (King James Version) It’s part of a passage a number of scholars believe was inserted into Paul’s text (or maybe Paul was quoting an earlier work not his own) because the “believer/unbeliever light/darkness righteousness/unrighteousness” dichotomy in it (along with certain other terms in the passage, like “Belial” for Satan) that is more characteristic of highly dualistic groups like the Dead Sea Sect.
That said, it clearly fits Hank’s and Carol’s ideology to a tee. Sadly.
As someone raised non-religiously, and is completely ignorant on ANYTHING regarding christianity, this seemed very culty. O_o. Is that an actual thing? I mean, I assume it is, since I doubt Willis would just make it up for no reason, but…damn.
Well I’ve certainly been missing out. I’ve read Genesis, Exodus, and partway through Leviticus, but the craziest things I’ve seen were when Jacob acts like a total dick to his brother Esau, and when God smites some person for pulling out right before the money shot.
Well, the craziest things God and the Hebrews (wow that sounds like a band name) have done. There’s probably more that I’ve skimmed over. I tend to skim a lot with books like this.
Oh wait, you’re talking about Passover, my bad. That is damning, but then again the Egyptians had killed the firstborn sons of the Hebrews, so it could be seen as karma. It certainly isn’t anything I’d commend today, but revenge was pretty important back then.
I’m forced to assume it happens a few times, but luckily it’s never been done with me (my mom was pretty religious, but didn’t even care whether I went to church or not so long as I promised to stay Catholic).
Pretty sure this kind of parenting and behavior is out there. I’m very ignorant to religion itself as I chose to stay away from that subject, but I have seen and overheard parents using God and religion as a guilt tool to use against their kids, it’s pretty uncomfortable to see.
The closest I’ve heard of (granted, I don’t know many fundamentalists) is my grandma had a ‘laying on of hands’ which from my understanding is a pastor saying a prayer while putting his hands on your head and possibly sprinkling with oil to help healing, which includes healing ‘spiritual challenges’.
It’s a real thing and it’s a lot more common than people think. Quick way to identify them: pretty much any church with “Good Word/Shepherd/News,” “Glorious,” “Way,” “Apostolic,” “Faith,” “Bible,” “Gospel,” “Pentecostal,” “Baptist,” “Victory,” “Fundamental/ist,” (bonus points for more than one of those in their name) churches are going to be like this. Science is of the devil, sent to deceive the faithful. Dinosaur bones were put in the earth to test the faithful. The earth was created “old” – it’s only 9,000 years old but God made it to look much older, to test the faithful. … You get the idea. Anything that doesn’t fit their interpretation of the bible is sent by the devil to test/deceive the faithful. It’s pretty awful to grow up in that environment, once you see the real world and realize how incredibly narrow your upbringing was. Joyce has acclimated much better than many sheltered, brainwashed fledgling fundies I’ve seen.
There is nothing wrong with “the Earth was created old” as a belief: a story may be new and tell a tale of a billion years. The Earth could have been created five minutes ago and you would not know the difference.
But the point is that it does tell a story of billions of years, and with such a perfect storyteller, we would be fools not to listen.
Baptist churches tend to be more reserved and conservative in worship; this is somewhere between Baptist (tame) and Pentecostal (batshit). Some Baptist churches are actually very progressive compared to most. One here in Charlotte was actually booted from the Southern Baptist Convention for performing civil union ceremonies. This was shortly before the Southern Baptist Convention withdrew from the Baptist World Alliance for not being homophobic and misogynistic enough.
You’re trippin’ right?
My church lays hands on people to pray and we most certainly do not believe science is of the devil or anything that goes along with that :/
It’s just like everything else in the world. A very vocal minority makes everyone else look bad. There are plenty of awesome and tolerant people of every religion and race.
Are you referring to the act of prayer? Or praying with someone’s hands on her head? Prayer is a very common thing in the U.S. among protestant Christians. It’s such a part of the culture that I am surprised if you are unfamiliar with it, in the U.S. it’s on T.V. , in films, and books. Most of the time people pray with their eyes closed and their hands folded, or sometimes with their hands joined together or on top of someone being prayed for, as they did here. You can pray alone or with others.
If you are referring to how they just won’t back down on being judgmental of Dorothy, that is them being bad people who judge others outside the church. I wish I could say that is highly uncommon, but it isn’t. However, I can say that the Christianity I grew up in condemns this kind of thing. Your not supposed to marry non believers, but being friends is fine. I wonder why they didn’t just send her to Christian college, after all they have to know Joyce has instructors that are not Christian.
I was referring to the “hands on head” and the praying for someone in such a way. Praying in media is very much a private thing, or at least, a mass thing in a sorta private way, but never like this, which seems oddly culty compared to the way it’s normally depicted.
But, here’s the thing, it is a private thing here. We’re watching only members of a family praying together. The passive-aggressive part is from her father’s snide choice of words, but otherwise it doesn’t seem that strange to me.
I honestly bet his character is not one to do this all the time, just an overreaction based on his worries about sending his youngest off to a secular college. Not to be condoned, but probably seeing him on his worst day rather than the norm.
This type of treatment and P-A prayer/parenting/etc are a LOT more common than you’d think – there are a lot of really fundie churches that don’t SEEM fundie on the surface, and a lot of fundie Christians who don’t seem fundie on the surface.
NO ONE I think would meet my parents without hearing about them from me and believe they’re super fundamentalist Christians and did this sort of thing with me from a very young age (the prayer-as-PA-guilt thing, the laying on hands thing, the “let’s take it to god” thing) because they’re very friendly, welcoming (on the surface) people. But if you’re not a Christian? Trust me, their only goal with you is to BRING YOU TO G-D, HALLELUJAH.
It’s way. Way. WAY more common than a lot of casual/liberal Christians and non-Christians realize, I think.
That’s just scary and fucked up. I’m sorry, it’s really psychologically traumatising. Not the act itself, but the passive-aggressive guilt-tripping phrasing. Sounds like a good way to bring up some really fucked up kids.
It reaaaaaally really is. I’ve been out of my parents’ house (and subsequently the church and all that) for about 8 years now and I’ve still got a lot of issues that stem from the shit my parents and pastors did and said when I was growing up.
as the fucked up kid of very fundamentalist parents, I would have to agree with you. It gets even better when you add being gay and/or trans* into the mix
And of course we aren’t allowed to say that. Finding something is odd is the same as hate, as I failed to retain the last time this was discussed. Please teach me to less awful…I’m just so bad.
Yeah, this definitely happens. I was raised with it, so it only seems mildly manipulative to me, not incredibly cultish. For the most part, prayer circles comfort me a great deal, especially if I know that the people praying know me well and have my best interests at heart.
Joyce’s dad, though, I want to punch in the face and scream at.
As an atheist who lives in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, this arc has been bloody disturbing. I haven’t been this uncomfortable reading a comic for a while.
Same here. I knew this sort of thing wasn’t uncommon, and I knew Willis had grown up with this so I expected something of the sort, but I didn’t expect it to be so uncomfortable to read. It takes me back to the time I went along to my fundie friend’s youth club as a kid, and had to listen to a talk by a complete nutcase, which everyone else took seriously. What could I say? Why are you listening to such manipulative bullshit? Ugh!
I guess what makes it uncomfortable for me is that I never had experience with this kind of people, so this comic making it feel more real is very very scary. Coupled with the fact that the religious right making a push overseas is even more terrifying.
When in doubt I too seek the guidance of the deity in this case the great old one Cthulhu
Of course I always botch my sanity check when he responds I don’t remember what I asked for guidance on in the first place.
Ah, a Cthulhuist! Always jolly people. I’m a Pastafarian myself; whenever I’m confused about anything I just call out to His Noodly Appendage to send me on the right path.
Oh, but it’s not a ritual, it’s just the laying on hands to bring the Holy Spirit to the person you’re praying over. A ritual would mean that they’re some sort of pagan or catholic.
Yes, my churches growing up, all of the six or seven I went to through my childhood and teen years, would do stuff like this, but then claim that we had no rituals or something. it was super fucked up.
In some of the local nondenoms, the laying on of hands is Kind of a Big Deal. Annoyingly so. “Might I say a prayer for your new baby?” “I…suppose?” *SWEATY UNWASHED HANDS TO EVERYONE’S FOREHEADS AAAUUUUGH*
Even when the person doing it is basically sweet, I still find it creepy. It’s more annoying when some young buck suppressing his worldly desires takes on his church’s message as his ONLY METHOD OF RELEASE. Oh yeah….he’ll pray for you soooooo hard, with lots of passion…for Jesus. All up in The Word!
For the record, I’m an Agnostic Episcopalian. Then again, for anyone who knows any Episcopalians, the agnostic part is rather redundant.
I grew up going to a non-denominational church (this one) and laying on of hands was a big big thing. You had to have people to it to complete catechism. My family was huge on the passive-aggressive stuff and the not being able to watch cartoons for weird reasons too. I wasn’t homeschooled, thankfully, though I did spend some time going to a Christian school. Some of my homeschooled church friends were horrified when I talked about playing RPGs.
I don’t think that this is the norm, exactly – I know when I visited friends churches they were much more laid back than mine – but there’s definitely a lot of this out there.
I just…I hope this resolves itself okay. Joyce is my favorite character because I love the way that while she’s kind of naïve she is ultimately well-rounded and not presented as being critical or dismissive of religious people. I know that a lot of Joyce’s character arc is based on personal experiences, but I’m actually really hopeful that she doesn’t eventually entirely abandon her faith. There really aren’t many religious characters in media who are presented as being rational and normal and Joyce actually comes really close to that despite her occasional weirdness. Also from personal experience I can say losing your lifelong faith is really traumatic and I just don’t want my girl Joyce to have to go through any trauma.
And yet, by secular logic, drinking in moderation is okay. I think that’s what Wilkie is hoping for, not total abandonment but toning it down to reasonable levels.
But then again, in all honesty, comparing religion to alcoholism is simply not a good comparison, because they’re quite different beasties. Alcoholism, regardless of what you’re actually drinking, has essentially the same harmful effects, different mostly in magnitude; whereas the potential harm from overzealous religions are as varied as religion itself is. And similarly, the solutions for overzealous religion are as varied as religion itself is.
I actually don’t think Joyce is an “alcoholic” in the terms of the analogy you’re presenting. Heavy drinker, sure, but she doesn’t seem to need every aspect of her life to be all about her religious indoctrination like some people.
Does anyone remember the Animaniacs episode where the Warner brothers and sister went to hell and screwed with the devil? Cause I really think Joyce should watch it.
Ditto, only replace “atheistic” with “nonreligious”. The same was true of SpongeBob, Family Guy and South Park, among other things. I grew up being told they were stupid, and between commercials and occasional snippets I’ve seen of some of them, I’ve only found support for that opinion.
…reminds me of the time I was upset at the post office because my little sister had H1N1. A woman very kindly asked what was wrong, so I told her my sister was hospitalized. She asked if she could pray for me. I’m agnostic, but it seemed like a nice gesture, and thinking she meant when she went to bed that night or something, I said sure.
…and then she grabbed my neck, forced my head down, and prayed right there in the post office. I tried to pull away and she said no. It was surprising and scary for me.
It reminds me of my creepiest prayer experience– when I was waiting tables I worked with this crazy fundie-ish woman, who, when she got pissed off at someone or got a bad tip, would say “I will pray for them, that they get EVERYTHING THEY DESERVE.” She would say this is the most menacing creepy way you can even imagine in your head. I even got the freaky hate-prayer from her one day because she thought I had taken one of her tables out of turn.
Oh, man, I will tell you right now she WOULD LET GO, or we would be talking about how I pressed charges and got her fired. That is so not within acceptable bounds.
Absolutely. You don’t grab somebody without explicit permission, and what that lady thinks “pray for me” means is far from universal.
I’d be irked, but it’s not really about the personal indignation as it is about the fact that behavior like that needs to be clearly delineated at NOT OKAY.
Oh, Joyce’s parents, you don’t realise it but you’ve pushed Joyce further away from your desires by trying to reel her back in. Now she’s seen exactly how people must see her and exactly why Walky things she’s hella brainwashed.
Joyce? Just roll your eyes and tune them out until they leave and go back to living your life.
^ This. I don’t think Joyce’s parents are being abusive, per se. They’re doing what they believe — and 4 weeks ago, Joyce would have been into praying away her temptations, too. But she is beginning to think for herself and to determine how she wants to shape and practice her religious beliefs/moral codes (which is what college is for, dammit!), so she is suffering MAJOR cognitive dissonance in realizing that the minute she was given enough exposure to other ways of thinking to understand that everything doesn’t boil down to Good Or Evil, her own thinking got more complicated and nuanced. It’s a wonder she hasn’t turned purple.
Just because it’s “what they believe” and Joyce would’ve gone along with it gladly a month ago doesn’t mean it’s not abusive.
Trust me, the sorts of people who practice Christianity the way Joyce’s family does tend to engage in a lot of little subtle abuses that can stack up to really fuck you up if you’re not careful.
(source: personal experience, and the fact that I KNOW my friends at church were raised the same way I was)
I’m drawing on my own experience, too. I wasn’t “fucked up” by my parents just because they believed differently than me and expressed concern that, from their standpoint, I would be better off trusting in God. It was awkward at times, and I did feel bad about letting them down, but it wasn’t abusive. Yes, parents *can* be abusive when they’re only acting on their beliefs, but this isn’t one of those cases, in my opinion.
Ehhhh, I’d say it’s borderline, honestly. They’re being extremely emotionally manipulative with this stuff, with the intent on getting her back “under control” basically, even if they don’t phrase it or even SEE it that way. And emotional manipulation so you can control what a person thinks and believes is abuse.
There’s a difference between “expressing concern” and “passive-aggressively trying to guilt trip you into agreeing with us again for your own good”. That might just be a lot of bad associations with situations and conversations like this on my part, but that’s how I see it.
Our opinions differ. I have a friend whose parents use exactly these sorts of tactics to aggressively belittle her sexuality. They have stunted her self esteem, and are constantly finding new ways to emotionally blackmail her. The Brown’s aren’t quite -there- yet, but they are on some exceptionally thin freaking ice.
I wouldn’t say my nephs were “fucked up” by being raised like Joyce. I will say they were “fucked over” since two of them had learning disabilities that went undiagnosed until High School, and the fact that my sister couldn’t teach worth shit.
Not trying to offend anyone but the only reason id ever read the bible assuming some day i do it’ll be to see if it has some fun stories in it not cause id take anything seriously. Thats just me i mean i read mythology and at somepoint in time it was a religion yet if attempted to prove it real everyone would laugh at me so yeah.Just saying thats why im not religious.
Now of course, as we learned yesterday in the discussion, Hitler was a good Christian, and all good Christians are like Hitler, so this should be no surprise.
I didn’t think my respect for her dad could get any lower, but he did it. It was already at zero, but he somehow made it go negative with that condescending prayer. I was fine up until the end, but…he he just HAD to call Dorothy evil. So did Mary, but at least she was more honest about it.
Light has a hell of a fellowship with darkness in the Bible. The only people who knew Jesus was Jesus and actually believed in what he did were demons, a Roman legionnaire, two criminals, and a Samaritan woman.
I doubt everyone is. This is, sadly, how a LOT of practicing Christians think and act, though. And by “practicing Christians”, I mean people who go to church every week without fail, not people who consider themselves Christians (whether they are or not is not my place to say) but only go to church once in a while, which is actually what I believe a majority of Christians in America are.
Though it’s hard not to lash out at all christians when you had to deal with stuff like this and other more obviously emotionally abusive/manipulative stuff growing up, which I”m sure at least some of us did.
Regardless of individual Christians, the fact is that Joyce’s parents have the Bible supporting their stance.
There are tons of Christians that are great people, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Bible, the cornerstone of their dogma and belief, is full of hateful and disturbing messages.
How about “Love your neighbor as yourself?” How about “Love is patient, love is kind?” It’s easy to say the Bible is full of hateful messages without an understanding of the context in which a lot of passages were written. Going through it myself, I haven’t found anything terribly hateful besides the way people decide to interpret it to serve their own prejudices.
There’s little room for interpretation of passages about annihilating rival cities. You can find good messages, but “context” doesn’t always work as a defense.
Certainly not when it comes to genocide, misogyny, and racism.”But context!” is never an excuse for these things, even more so when it’s all backed by a supposedly all-powerful and benevolent god.
An all powerful God who hates people. In the Old Testament He actively made war against everyone except the Hebrews and Gentiles who worshipped Him, and even then He was sporadic at best in the help He gave. At least He mellowed out in the New Testament.
Gotta give you props for getting that family pitch-perfect. I grew up in a variation of this family. If the passive-aggressive prayer doesn’t work, they’ll just wedge in a bit about “fools” who won’t listen to wisdom, a la one of the Psalms. Win-win!
Joyce would probably love Monster Hunter until her parents found out about it and manipulated her into hating it by quoting relevant scripture and making such pleas to God through prayer.
Well I’ve apparently fallen so far outside of the demographic for this comic that I’ll probably have to start back with “peanuts” or “the family circle” before I can work my way back. I read this comic because I enjoyed the humor and because I have two college age daughters. I would point out the you folks have had roughly eight panels to get to know these fictional characters. I’d be a little more impressed with all the “durr hrr hrr” going on if any one of you could lose the Jesus hate and maybe focus on a different context. Mainly, two parents who have sent their daughter to college and are concerned that all the values they’ve tried to teach her are going to go into the toilet. Considering that Joyce is a freshman, they’ve just let go of their kid. Prayer is a way of directing a message. Was this one a little pointed? Yes. Heavy handed. Yes? And in a couple of days they have to go home and wonder if their kid is going to be okay. They had to have done some things right, yes? Joyce is obviously smart, curious and healthy. The fact that Joyce is hanging out with an atheist is a bit heavy for these folks. This is on par with dropping your teenage daughter off at college, and she comes home with three tattoo’s, a nose piercing, cigarette dangling from her lip and every other word is something obscene. A bit of advice. This is a pretty cool lesson. You don’t know how they got where they are, and you don’t know where they will end up. These folks are only trying to protect their kid. They haven’t learned to let go yet, and at some point they have to trust they did a good job and leave it in God’s hands. That is the HARDEST thing a parent has to do. So cut them some slack. Thus endeth the sermon, and thank you for your attention.
If it helps, you’re not alone in that realization. I definitely saw my own parents in these strips, even though my parents aren’t religious at all, because of that common thread of worrying and the fact that kids in college will inevitably rebel a tiny bit regardless. That being said, it still can be shocking to read 😛
I know the people who act like this in real life, and I know Willis has too. It makes me sick, it makes me rage, and it looks like many others feel the same way as I do. I have cut this adult- this archetype, this stereotype- all the slack in the world for my entire life. I have dealt with these people. And I think I have the right to denounce their kind of logic and child-rearing sense here in exacting terms with plenty of obscenities as they compare me to a mass-murdering megalomaniac, denounce their daughter’s choice in friends, and say the same stupid things that they always have and always will repeat until the end of their time- for the sake of my own sanity. Because I can’t talk like that in real life, to the real people who I know who act like this. That isn’t right.
Leave us to our comments. You really don’t have to scroll down.
And I don’t mean to attack you. This is just really volatile stuff. I’m sure most people here would agree with Jesus on most of his major points, it’s just that the people who have appointed themselves his spokespersons can be absolute gits…
Only eight panels? No. We’ve had the entire comic to see how their attitudes have affected Joyce’s worldview and almost a week of strips of them being intolerant jackasses in this storyline.
Your comparison is illogical. They were vile to Dorothy and even worse behind her back, and now they’re emotionally manipulating Joyce by attempting to shame her.
There is no justification that makes up for that sort of behavior. None whatsoever.
Even if they were raised that way, they could’ve chosen to look at the world instead of shutting themselves off in closed-minded hate.
I tried to play Devil’s Advocate for the Browns before, but, no. They’re nasty people.
Timeout: you want me to “cut them some slack” for telling their daughter she has to ditch her friends because they don’t conceptualize the universe the same way they do and using cultish intimidation and brainwashing because “Hey! Empty nest syndrome!”
Hell, no. Fuck, no. I think you can see where I’m going with this.
I think I can. I honestly didn’t think my comment was going to draw nearly this much ire, but I will say this. I have no idea what your relationship with your parents might have been, but, out of curiosity did your parents approve of every friend you had, right off the bat? This isn’t a criticism. This is merely a suggestion that people over react. I think everyone has heard a parent say “if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?” That an exaggeration. Of course mom and dad don’t think that, but some times in a moment of exasperation something pops out that’s basically ridiculous on some level. Me, I was suggesting that there was a different point of view to take than “Jeseus Bad!”. Thank you for your opinion and taking the time to read mine.
I have a Mother like this.
And even when she is a Human being, she is also my Mother and we can’t just say “Yeah, there happened a lot of things to her” and pretend, that it is okay, what she is doing.
You can’t always hide behind the things that happened to you.
Sometimes you have to be responsible. And when you have a Child, you will always be responsible.
Because everytime you are not, you destroy a part of your kid. Not like abuse, but hard enough that you child can get a mental disorder.
Also, it’s even more wrong, when this people think, that Atheism is the same as being obscene and living unhealthy.
It’s not okay, just because they are filled with prejudices and they don’t know better, no, it makes it worse.
They are grown-ups. They are parents. And still they act like children, not mature enough, to believe in what they learned AND to accept people, that are different, because they are still too stubborn and too immature.
That’s a way to destroy a kid.
Just sayin’.
No. No I will not cut them some slack. Because my parents were exactly the same way with me growing up. I know intimately why and how Joyce thinks and acts the way she does and what her childhood was like because THAT WAS MY CHILDHOOD.
So no, I am not going to give her parents the benefit of the doubt or whatever it is you want me to give them, because this is like looking into a mirror for me and seeing all the abuse and manipulation I was subjected to from the time I was old enough to form my own opinion about things (so, when I was about 7).
And for the record? I don’t hate Jesus. Or Christians. In fact, I think Jesus himself had a lot of really good teachings, and the Christians who stay away from the more fundamentalist and hypocritical side of the religion are awesome people. The ones I know are deeply awesome people, and I respect both them and their faith. But these people? They use Jesus and the Bible to justify judging and hating certain kinds of people (queer people like Ethan, atheists like Dorothy, people of other religions), and if you think that believing “because you are gay/don’t worship the way I do/don’t believe what I believe, you’re going to hell” isn’t hate, then you have a really skewed view of what love and hate are.
I try not to get angry and emotional in comments with people I don’t even know, but this is a deeply emotional and traumatic part of my past. That’s the sort of place some of us are coming from – not just mindless hatred of an entire religion.
I’m truly sorry that hit a nerve with you. Your reaction is understandable. I’m also sorry that your relationship with your parents is how you described. That’s a truly hard and heavy thing to have to carry around. You’re last paragraph suggested you’re trying to get a handle on your reactions to this kind of thing and that’s truly healthy. I wish you the best.
Seriously, by the time they get to College age, IT’S TOO LATE! They’ve already heard everything you’ve got to say, and some of it they agree with, some of it they don’t. On the parts they don’t agree with, they’ve already heard all your arguments and they aren’t convinced. The only things that can change their minds are new people with new arguments, and direct experience. The only effect of harping on about the things they don’t agree with is to make them want to see you less often.
The reason Joyce’s parents are getting so much hate here is that not only do they not accept this, they will probably never accept it. They have a very rigid idea of who their daughter should be, and what sort of life she should have, and they’re prepared to be pretty underhand to try to enforce it. How long before they bring out the straight emotional blackmail? She still loves them: will they use that as a weapon against her?
I rode the train to manipulation town until I was in my 20s.
Joyce is not an adult. At least, not mentally, emotionally and socially. She is a stunted child whose parents (knowingly or unknowingly) put a low glass ceiling over her head with God-shaming.
She will continue to defer to her parents because, in her eyes, her parents carry the authority of God. We’re taught to obey our parents, even if they’re not 100% right, and that to go against them is to go against God.
Nobody wants that kind of stigma on them. Maturity is like a taproot, though, and will eventually find a way through. But she will be several years behind her peers in development and may end up completely casting off the religion in resent once she finally has a chance to see it all from above.
You may well be right. I have got the impression that Joyce hasn’t had it as bad as some: her pastor said she was “the best socialised out of her whole homeschool group” and her parents did allow her to go to IU rather than a Christian college like her best friend. I interpreted that as a signal that they think she is ready to survive on her own (without doing anything they wouldn’t approve of, or disagreeing with them in any way, of course).
No one is a mature adult at that age, but my point was that by then, children have learnt everything from their parents that they’re going to.
Exactly. I left the church at 19 (after a year of some REALLY sketchy shit on the part of my parents and pastor) and am still, at 27, trying to break away from the way my mother specifically tries to manipulate me.
Sometimes it works, and I recently had to declare that I would not be coming back to visit them in their home because I called my wife in the middle of a visit sobbing because my mother had basically managed to take my frustration and hurt and desire to be a good person in regards to things like race and turned it into how I’m a horrible hateful person who pushes people away by ALWAYS ARGUING WITH THEM ALWAYS OVER EVERYTHING and that’s why I don’t have friends and am unhappy (despite the fact that I have friends and am actually pretty content).
I’m almost 30 and she still has some control over my thoughts and emotions, despite my attempts to break away from it, she just uses it to tear me down much more obviously than she ever did when I was still “part of the church”. :/
“three tattoo’s, a nose piercing, cigarette dangling from her lip and every other word is something obscene” is equivalent to “Wants to have a friend that doesn’t share our religion and that we know literally nothing else about”? I suppose the “obscene” words would be “tolerance” in this scenario.
It’s so precious when one of the 4-1 majority goes all victim mentality with a “lose the Jesus hate” crack. And comparing friendship with a non-believer to addiction and carcinogens is just totes adorbs.
It’s equally precious when someone manages to peg me as part of the “4-1 majority” whatever the heck that is, but my point was I could see their point of view as a PARENT who has kids in college. There’s a level of culture shock. From the Browns point of view it probably was as bad. I suggested a little compassion but apparently that’s not a concept you can grasp yet. Once could hope.
To get compassion they have to show compassion? I’m sorry but if you wait for that nobody get’s any mercy. Showing compassion when somebody’s wrong is very hard. Thank you for your opinion though.
I didn’t peg you as anything; you pegged yourself. Congratulations on being a PARENT (I CAN CAPS LOCK, TOO!) and all, but you finding it so easy to relate to these characters only makes me more thankful to have been raised by rational, accepting people who didn’t impose their own insecurities on children.
And yes, having a laugh at the victim mentality in your comments and the intolerant, nonsensical smoking analogy absolutely means I haven’t grasped the concept of compassion. Wow, you really got me there. Good show.
Kudos for speaking up, but I’ve seen the damage their kind of un-Christ-like attitude can have, both on someone’s own kids and on the bigger community. Jesus didn’t cloister himself with people who lived righteously, he met people where they were in life, whether beggars, whores, theives or worse, and showed them love and compassion. Jesus was definitely “in the world” in that way. So many people use the phrase, “in the world, not of it” as justification for insulating themselves against the “world” while totally ignoring the “in the world” part. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he didn’t just say “love the Lord your God with all your heart,” he also said “…and your neighbor as yourself.” Our neighbors aren’t limited just to those who share our beliefs, socioeconomic status, skin color, or lifestyle. Those who are well have no need of a physician.
I know a young man, raised by his grandparents, who was recently kicked out of the house, with nowhere to go, because one of his oldest childhood friends came out as transsexual. They had rather see him homeless than have the family name associated with something they disagreed with.
I’ve met many, many people in my travels who say they believe in God but won’t attend church because they have a friend or relative who wouldn’t feel welcome.
I have a brother-in-law who sends his kids to church with my parents, but doesn’t attend himself because he thinks people would judge him for his tatoos.
One of my ex-wife’s friends had planned to go to church with us once. I’m really glad she backed out, because the sermon that day was about the evils of homosexuality, and she has two moms. That was also the last day I ever attended that church.
Is this what Christ’s love is supposed to do to people?
If you don’t think that Joyce’s parents’ behaviour these last few strips has been horrifying, despicable, abusive, ignorant and childish, then you have never ever ever been anywhere near the demographic of this comic.
And if you seriously think this has anything to do with “Jesus hate”, you are so enormously off-target, you didn’t even hit the right universe.
As a conservative Christian, I can’t cut them any slack because they’re wrong. While Willis and I don’t always agree on matters of faith these kinds of people do exist, people who follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of Jesus’s teachings. Joyce has actually been a pretty good girl while here. She’s fled from “youthful lusts” (granted her way of doing so is…a bit different), she’s tried to get her friends to at least give church a try (two of which she’s had at least some success with), and has stayed true to many of her principles.
My worry is that her parents have kept her unprepared for that guy at the party or..well, Billie to a point even if she isn’t a totally evil person. She treats everyone decently except for Walky but even then they do sort of get along. She’s kind hearted, sweet, and not afraid to not only speak her mind but listen to others even if she doesn’t agree with it even after they’re done. She has a few fault but I think her parents should be proud of her.
Now if Dorothy’s parents are as strict about their atheistic perspectives this could be an interesting friendship and a way for both Joyce and Dorothy to grow as people and characters, plus I think it would balance out the way Joyce’s parents are depicted. (And there are people on both sides that are way overboard in their views.)
I say let’s see how Joyce and Dorothy come out of this before throwing it away. I think Willis is being fair here. I would argue on certain Shortpacked strips, sorry Dave, but here he seems to be treating all perspectives well enough right now.
“Now if Dorothy’s parents are as strict about their atheistic perspectives this could be an interesting friendship and a way for both Joyce and Dorothy to grow as people and characters, plus I think it would balance out the way Joyce’s parents are depicted. (And there are people on both sides that are way overboard in their views.)”
It is a simple thing to find people who describe their parents like Joyce’s. While I don’t deny there are some zealous atheists out there, I have not heard of any atheist equivalents to Joyce’s parents, who use atheism to control, shame, and judge their kids. Making Dorothy’s parents into those types would not ring true, and would not square with what we already know of Dorothy as a character.
It would also require that their statement to the Browns that they let Dorothy decide for herself be a lie. The unreliable narrator has a place in fiction, but this isn’t a good spot for it.
The argument for “balance” is also specious because we see a very broad range of attitudes among Christians in this comic, but don’t have a similarly broad sample of atheists. Making our one set of atheist parents as bad as the worst set of Christian parents we’ve seen.
It’s not bad or imbalanced storytelling or an attack on Christianity to say “atheist couple X are better parents than Christian couple Y.” That story element would only be a problem if the story treats each couple as the factory standard default setting for their respective belief systems, which Willis clearly isn’t doing here.
I’d argue that Dorothy’s parents aren’t atheists themselves. They raised her areligiously and gave her the opportunity to choose her own and they respect her decision — and nothing in their dialogue indicated that she came out at the same place they’re at.
Mind you, they may not be devout Christians/Buddhists/Wiccans, but there is plenty of room for them to be some form of deist.
This isn’t empty nest syndrome, though. This is empty cage syndrome. We saw how the parents feel about her leaving the nest at the start of the comic: they were cool with it. Happy, interested, supportive good parents.
And now this shit we’re seeing lately. This isn’t about her leaving the nest; it’s about her leaving the sheltered cage of ideas and prejudices that they raised her in. Leaving home, that’s not a problem. Associating with atheists, though – that’s bad! Really really bad! Like, NAZI bad. Because obviously that’s a reasonable and understandable thing to say about anybody.
Go back and read the last few comics. This has jack shit to do with Joyce leaving the nest. It has everything to do with her associating with those dreaded outsiders. The division they’re drawing is between light and darkness. Light being their sainted selves, and darkness being all those worthless shitty scumbags who dare not be in lockstep with their particular flavor of religion and intolerance.
And it can only go downhill from here. Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Dinophiles, homosexuals, ex-cons, black people, mixed-race people, ‘loose women’, people who don’t wear shoes – this dorm is a veritable cornucopia of people who are not clones of themselves, and it’s anybody’s guess who will offend them next! I wouldn’t be surprised if they reject and lambast every single person that Joyce knows here.
Well, except Mike. Mike is obviously an upstanding young man. Perfect for her.
Joyce is a freshman but she’s the youngest of… Five? Seven? They’ve had lots of practice letting go. Befriending a person with a different worldview in he first month of freshman year isn’t really comparable to tattoos anyway, is it?
You know its a good thing joyce doesnt listen to slipknot or papa roach just saying if she did and her family found out theyed probably get her exorcisted.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
-Terry Pratchett
Now I don’t say this as a rebuff to Joyce’s parents, but what is the first thing that many of you see when you read this? That the darkness is more powerful? That it holds a certain animosity to the light? Sure, I suppose that works.
But what if the light is just to sure in itself, to blinded by it’s own ego to see that the darkness is the thing that defines it? That the darkness has always just been waiting for the light to realize that without it, the light does not exist as well.
Sorry, this came from the “For what fellowship does light have with darkness” line from yon amazing comic.
“I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I’m sure you’ll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.” Vetinari
I’m a Pagan. But, I have read the Greek and Roman Mythology, The Bible, the Book of Morman and I will read the Koran next. I think it is important to know your fellow human beings beliefs, and I find it interesting.
I always keep in mind that my religion is considered mythology. I find this funny.
I do not find public displays of prayer, even if done “by white breds wearing sweater vests”, to be all that acceptable. Their own Bible speaks to them of not being like the Saraccan (sorry for spelling here) showing off their humility and piousness with public praying, but instead to take their prayer to the closet, to pray in solitude. It has been a long time since I’ve read that passage, I have quoted it as best I could.
People like The Browns are not Christians, I don’t know what they are. But they are not following their own rules, they are twisting them to force their daughter to their way of thinking.
If they’re praying in public to show off I agree with you. If they honestly feel like they need to pray for something specific they shouldn’t have to hide it like it’s a crime (except in countries where it is). Whatever problems I have with the Browns here (and lo they may turn out to be many) they do honestly think they need a move of God here. They’re not trying to show off to the campus “hey, we pray so we’re better than you”. (Granted they probably DO think they’re better than you but I think I’m arguing two different things here.) So it’s the only thing they’ve done here that doesn’t bother me.
I have to say, as someone who has seen friends coming out of that path (I thankfully was pretty much always agnostic, even as I kid) it is one of the most painful things to watch. I’m stoked that Dorothy and the others are getting through to Joyce and showing her the wider world but (even though this is a webcomic when its all over) I feel really really bad for Joyce.
To be honest, I’m not sure that’s what should happen. I’m agnostic, but I have no problem with people that have faith (to be frank, I actually have some jealousy that they can believe everything will work out even when things are at their worst). I do have problems with (as others have called it) the brainwashing, or with the forced ignorance of the greater world, or turning a belief system that says it’s based on love into something hateful. Joyce has already started expanding her horizons, and that’s good, but I don’t think she has to lose her faith to do so.
If I had to bet on an outcome for Joyce, I’d say she’d end up mainline Protestant when all is said and done, though she might flirt with abandoning Christianity altogether during her “okay, I don’t believe what my parents taught me anymore — what DO I believe?” phase. She might examine paganism or atheism, but I don’t think they’d be good fits for her in the end. If her relationship with Ethan were to last long enough she might consider the idea of converting to Judaism, but I expect that ship to hit the reality-iceberg and go to the bottom long before she gets to that point.
I think seeing her shop around for different flavors of Christianity during her entire crisis of faith is more probable than a “my week as a Wiccan” type story, though, even if I’m not entirely discounting the possibility of the latter.
Y’know…I hope not, honestly. Sure, I’m all for heaps of character development and painful self-reflection, but…
Alright, look.
Joyce’s original character arc during the final years of It’s Walky! really spoke to me. Everything from around Dina’s death through to the end of the series; from suffering successive crises of faith to coming out a stronger, better person but not having cast everything aside.
I grew up in a fairly moderate/liberal Methodist church. The kind of church that would allow the youth group to build a real genuine haunted house each halloween (a real one, not a hell house or whatever. We did zombies and ghosts and graveyards and shit. Not a single biblical figure to be seen). Then when I was around…19, I think? A lot of political shit went down behind the scenes, and long story short we had a split in the congregation and the new pastor was far more fundi and in line with a lot of the remaining church (mostly the older folks). Halloween was neutered, and soon I started seeing creationist books popping up.
Anyway, I read It’s Walky a bit after I left the church and was suffering from successive crises of faith. And you know what spoke to me? Joyce’s conversation with The Cheese; about how even if you’re wrong, at least the choice is your own. Joyce’s conversation with Joe, about her faith is for herself. Joyce’s conversation with Walky, about how despite everything that had been thrown at her, he was a shining example about why she still believed. It started me on my own personal spirital path. Twelve-thirteen years down the line, I’m something of a post-Christian pluralist who hasn’t been to church (aside from Christmas with the family) since. But I still have a very strong personal faith. I even minored in religious studies in college, and have a fairly impressive library of various religious texts from that time. And as silly as it seems, I think Joyce’s arc at the end of It’s Walky! was a big factor in that.
So…I dunno. If she became an atheist it wouldn’t be the end of the world, and it might even inspire someone else on their journey down the road. But it would be really painful for me to read, because it would be sort of a parting of the ways for that character and I, since I don’t ever really see myself becoming one. Changing, sure, that comes with life. So…yeah. And that’s not a knock against atheists (I mean…almost all of my friends are at the very *least* agnostic), I’m simply speaking for myself, personally.
Have this many readers really never seen a group prayer before? The only bad part is that he makes it out to be her problem and made a backhanded comment about Dorothy.
My husband’s Catholic and they did it once in a while in some of the church groups – but only if the person actually wanted it (at least so it seemed)… Either way it always creeped me somewhat out but I was also raised not only in a quite non-religious family but in a ditto country (Denmark) so overt demonstrations of faith etc. was and is still for me rather strange and outlandish…
Used to happen in my church all the time. Normally with two or three people, standing at the back or the front. We’d have a focused prayer time at the end of the service where the congregation sang a few songs and anyone who felt comfortable could go to any of the volunteer prayer partners and ask for prayer for absolutely anything.
Now I’m at a different church, and they don’t really do that sort of thing, which is fine. I find that I miss having the option sometimes, though. It’s really wonderful and comforting if you’ve asked for it and just need the touch of another human being, especially if you’re having a hard time.
Sorry, I see “Joyce” and “the third hole” and my mind goes to a really filthy place and refuses to even read the rest of the post, replacing it with something that would likely make Faz blush.
What I’m taking away from all of this isn’t that Joyce’s parents are cultists or ruthlessly indoctrinating her so much as treating her like a little who doesn’t know what she’s talking about and needs her hand held through everything. They don’t trust her enough to have a non-Christian friend and stay a Christian herself. It is then humorously exaggerated, as befitting a primarily comedy-based webcomic. Poe’s Law is in effect, however.
If you think this sort of thing is “humorously exaggerated” then I envy you, because this was quite literally what my life was like growing up, and what it continues to be like every time I have to spend time with my parents despite being 8 years removed from when I left the church.
As someone who is the punching bag of Poe’s Law more often than not… no. What you should take away from this is yea, some parents/people ARE like this and it’s no humorous exaggeration. Especially if you’ve been on the receiving end, I reckon.
“Joyce, don’t you remember what we told you? Every time you distract God with your piddly shit, he loses his place and gives a new baby an extra chromosome or two.”
This comic is even more awkward when you remember that Joshua is still in the room, probably standing off to the side, feeling really uncomfortable because he used to be in Joyce’s position.
Welp…I’ll be honest. If they actually leave it at this, it’s better than I had feared. I’d rather have Joyce deal with this weirdness than her parents flip out and deliver some kind of ultimatum by holding her college funding over her head.
At least this way, it’s still Joyce’s decision, she’d just had her rather f’ed up upbringing shoved in her face a little harder. And that was going to happen sooner or later anyway.
So, let’s take it to God is Brownspeak for “stand there and be quiet while we invalidate your opinions and force our rationales down you throat.” bless his heart, Mr. Brown’s a dick.
this gets me so pissed, only because this is how my parents have acted and still act and it just pisses me off, just because someone believes something different it doesn’t make them a bad person
And this my friends is why I left Christianity behind and never looked back, I just hope Joyce sees her family for what they are, extremist bigots and avoids going down their path, because losing faith in anything is a tough road to go down, but modifying your faith to better fit the realitys of the world is the best move.
Seconded. I believe that Joyce’s faith is important enough to her that she’ll try to adjust how she views the world without losing it altogether, but it might come with one of those EXTREME SWINGING TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE phases first.
Despite the fact that I could never return to Christianity after my history with it, I would be much happier to see her come to a more true and loving form of her faith in the end.
Yeah. Whether or not I believed in God and the divinity of Christ became a non-issue as soon as I figured out I had nothing to do with the terrible closed-minded bigoted ignorant people that this religion creates.
Every time I think I might like to try another church that advertises themselves as “different” or “tolerant,” I find that they’ve still done something like kicked people off staff for coming out as homosexual, for instance.
I’ve told myself I’ll give Christianity another chance if I can actually find a church with a transsexual on staff. It’s a good litmus test, I think.
*checks* Yeah, that’s what he said. I sincerely hope this is what he was talking about, though I suppose the Walkertons still have time to show up and start sacrificing kittens.
I was an evangelical myself, and I have to say I recognize all that I didn’t like about certain types of evangelicals in Joyce’s parents. While an atheist myself, I love pointing out to that type that Jesus’ ministry was not to the “publicans, who wish to be seen as devout” but rather the folks people automagically decried as unrighteous. Tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, what have you. When I hear prayers like that (and boy did I), it made me cringe. It didn’t feel -right-. I’m glad to see Joyce cringe. It makes me happy for her. It makes me believe in her.
not gonna lie, i like the Browns for trusting Joyce to make her own decision, in at least some capacity. i know from personal experience that this guilt trip could be SO much worse.
And then everyone combusted royally, as if they were made flesh into burning bushes. There was made screaming until the walls, and ashen marks that stain forever more, and all was made well.
YEP and if you don’t let them, they’ll think you’re possessed because obviously if you don’t want to be touched by strangers, YOU’RE the one with the problem
(also raised as a radical fundie hello)
The light is not to be a part of the darkness but to be A LIGHT to the darkness. I am a Christian and this comic felt like it was generalizing Christianity so I just wanted to point this out as clarification.
In my mind, the phrase “Let’s take it to God” should only be preceded by some records scratching, and then, two people being carried up to Heaven so that the angels and the saints can judge a rap competition.
I like the last panel. Looks like someone is maybe starting to think for herself. Too bad, I was looking forward to what happened to her in the Walkyverse.
Wow. Just wow. What I love is the sheer arrogance. “Well Honey let’s ask God to guide us but oh we aren’t going to wait for Divine inspiration we are going to presume to tell him to guide you to what we have decided is right and wrong”
Lol oh damn I just realized even with her painfully mean at times naivety that the sheer evilness of Joyce’s parents makes me like her.
I know people are going to be all “they aren’t evil (headscratch)” Yeah see the thing is Evil isn’t “I want to take over the world and I know I am the bad guy” Evil is the “I will teach my child to condemn and shun all who do not believe in my ways for they are lesser humans than us”
The saying, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions” actually means something and it’s not that good deeds are a great way to make things go bad it’s that you can love someone but if your good intentions involve doing things that are objectively bad or wrong to that person or teaching them to do so then you are on a one way trip downtown.
These are the kinds of parents, in my experience, who either raise religious bigots and hypocrites, or kids that go onto to destroy their lives when they go off to college because they go from “100% control” to “I can haz drugs?”
Sad because the parents are the nicest people in the world. So long as you share their faith.
…I don’t think they’re “taking this to god” here. What that is, is saying we’ll involve god, then telling god what his answer is. which is probably the most non-pious thing you can do.
I think joyce’s parents may be some of the most unpleasent folks I’ve seen. especially since theres nothing in the bible to prevent folks from talking to non-christians, so the ground of their argument have already collapsed…
I keep hoping they’re going to get better. Unfortunately, I’ve heard everything they’re saying before….from members of my own church. Course, the problem with my church is probably the fact that the average age of our congregation is in the 50’s to 60’s, with a few people who are getting into their 70s and 80s. My sunday school teacher apparently read Horton Hears a Who for the first time in her life last year.
And as the youngest member of the congregation, everything I say is ‘inaccurate’, and ‘uneducated’ as I haven’t been alive long enough to have their many years of saying the same things over and over again. When I just point out things the bible says that I think are interesting. Like the part where Lot, with angel guests in his home, is asked to march out the handsome men visiting him so the city of Sodom can rape them. Instead, he sends out his two young virgin daughters and says “Take them instead!” It’s ridiculous, and I find it hilarious when the people twice my age say this is a good thing because he’s ‘following god’s word’.
All in all, the Browns remind me of my church. They talk like old people who’ve grown up being taught the same thing over and over again and told that anything different is evil. (Not that the people of my church aren’t…friendly. They’re just…stubborn with their doctrines.) If they met while going to college here, how exactly did they survive to graduation without losing all their friends? Or did they have any?
I’m guessing they only had friends who are of their own denomination, or at least were all Christian. So not very many, given the college setting.
Fortunately, my church was always open minded about this sort of thing; even if you can’t convince them to convert, at least being kind to them can dispel some of their misconceptions. If you really want to get into it, the Bible DOES say to talk to nonbelievers or those who follow other faiths, because preaching to the choir doesn’t accomplish nearly as much.
My issue was the use of passive aggressive contact prayer to their god worded in such a way as to make the child feel they are wrong for even thinking outside the box the parents have allowed them to think within.
I’m reading this and all I’m seeing is the time many years in future when Joyce finally snaps and says to them “Well, following your example I was talking to a nice preachers son who tried to rape me, which I’m sure God would have forgiven seeing as the guy was a believer. Luckily for me, but unluckily for God and his chosen friend for me, an atheist and a few others you guys would look down on came to my rescue. Don’t worry though. I know that they’re the bad guys in that scenario.”
As someone who was raised Roman Catholic, this is not something that commonly occurs in the RC faith. At least not like this. While praying about something is not uncommon, it’s usually done silently and privately. Of course every religious denomination is different, and this isn’t outside the scope of what some denominations might do.
I keep trying to add briefly to Doom’s point, but it keeps turning into an essay.
Simply put a real fundamentalist Christian (notice I used a small “f”, that’s important) follows what the Bible says as it is written, with some room for interpretation. Meaning, they don’t reject others and they don’t use prayer as a passive aggressive weapon. And in this case, the laying on of hands looks like it’s meant to just add to the condescension.
In short, Joyce’s parents are bad at following their own beliefs.
For the record, I do get that anyone doing this kind of fails at their religion. I’m not one of those atheists who counts all religious people as bad.
After reading the comments here it saddens me just how many people have grown up under that. I’ve seen versions where non-believer parents do similar, but it doesn’t seemquite as bad without bringing a flawless being into the equation and putting it on your side. Even arguing your side goes against your beliefs to a degree then.
First off,..: Props to Willis for generating a heated discussion.
On Topic: On the one hand, Joyces Parents are ACTING LIKE PARENTS.
On the other, They are learning to “let go” the hard way. As a parent it is required at some point to let your kids walk into walls or fall down. You won’t be around them forever,.. so they have to learn to function w/o you.
But THIS IS HARD if you care about your kids.
You would rather that they have most of your standards as far as morality, acceptable behavior, and common sense,.. but its not an auto-pass on with that stuff,.. so you do the best you can,.. then pry your fingers off on digit at a time to see if they can stand on their own.
I’m glad to read that not everyone’s take-away from this strip is “Joyce’s parents are horrible hateful people.” What Willis is portraying here is very real, and so like real life, there are a lot of different valid ways to interpret it.
I also find Joyce’s parents’ actions understandable and human, albeit wrong-headed. In my view, they did right by expressing their concerns to their daughter (even though those concerns came from a warped worldview) and attempting to put the matter in God’s hands. Where they went wrong was when they started presuming to speak for God, without having made an effort to listen to Him in the moment. Instead, they fall back on their own understanding, based on their long-held interpretation of a selection of His words.
It’s a common mistake (found in religious people but not limited to them), to grow up learning a worldview and then, once you’re an adult, think you understand everything and stop learning. That seems to be what Joyce’s parents have fallen into. I’m hopeful that Joyce will do better.
I also acknowledge that Joyce’s parents’ treatment of Dorothy’s family and their outlook on atheists in general is hateful. And I acknowledge that when parents are overly controlling, it’s harmful to their children. But these serious flaws don’t turn Joyce’s parents into demons in my mind. Rather, I see them as very human.
They’re not attempting to put anything in God’s hands, though. I mean, my personal opinion is that they’re “praying” to their imaginary friend, (and even if a god exists, it doesn’t take a whole lot to put to absurdity the whole notion of prayer anyway) But even within their own belief structure, they’re using prayer as a way of passive aggressively manipulating their daughter. They are preying upon (hah) her trust and natural human familial interdependence.
Honestly, I kinda view this scene as offspring abuse.
I don’t. I grew up under this. It is mental, emotional and social stunting of your child.
You don’t allow them to make decisions for themselves, but rather have them constantly defer to someone’s specific interpretation of the Bible.
Soon, we’ll probably see Joyce arguing interpretations or justifying her own interpretations just so she can do what deep down inside she knows is right but her brain won’t allow her to do without constant niggling, afraid of displeasing God by doing the things her parents and her pastors told her “Christians don’t do.”
Joyce is stuck in this situation I found myself in not so long ago: being raised in this scenario where she’s told how the world is evil and full of sinners and full of dangerous things, but now that she’s in it she finds it’s not so black and white.
She’s having a culture shock, and now she has to make a decision to either throw off the bondage and allow herself to finally grow into a fully functional human being or shut down and come back into the fold of being a robot, only following orders of what is wrong and what is right.
Seconding Uejji’s point. They’re being parents, yeah, but that doesn’t make it healthy or good for them to do. I grew up in this sort of environment and trust me, it is harmful and can even easily be abusive when this sort of thing is common.
Because the thing is, they’re not ACTUALLY taking anything to G-d, because they know that G-d agrees with them. They’re older, they’re more experienced in their religion, they have more wisdom. What they’re doing is saying “Well, let’s take it to G-d and then you can make your decision.” and what they’re doing is reiterating what they “know” G-d wants them to believe, and if Joyce acts against that, they’ll say she’s straying from G-d and that maybe she’s not spiritually mature enough to be in such a secular environment and should come home/go to Christian university/etc
Will it play out exactly that way? Not necessarily. But it’s a situation I’ve seen over and over and over again throughout my childhood and young adulthood, and to think that they’re honestly trying to bring G-d into this because they don’t know what Joyce “should” do just shows that you’ve never experienced this sort of parenting.
That’s not a BAD thing by any stretch, I’m honestly glad for you, but that doesn’t make what they’re doing any less manipulative and borderline emotionally abusive.
1st time commenter, gotta say I love this webcomic.
As much as I hate this issue, it does grab my attention, especially since the family situation here is similar to my friend’s life. I’ve even been trying to think of comparing & getting her into this webcomic to see what she thinks of one of the primary characters being so similar to her.
But that last line, “Let us not be yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has light with darkness?” That really rustled my jimmies. Monotheism as an established institution isn’t a special little club to me, just a fruity little club with a large opinion of itself. Someone’s belief of God is their own thing anyway, a personal choice. If the soul is there, it’s indivisibly an individual’s to wield & maintain in what fashion they will.
I think I hate Joyce’s family for belittling even that by their usual carry-on. But I guess that may be why they were written in, to rustle up the jimmies of an agnostic like me, or any atheists.
What a wonderful way to get out of an awkward situation, ignore any possibility of being wrong, and be passive aggressive all in one. All without solving any issues at all, but it hides the discord behind layers of repression and shame. That’s some A+ parenting.
I’ve seen this kind of generation gap before. The parents are all bound up in their tribal identity, but the children are still young enough to believe in unconditional kindness.
Every time I see such kind of attitude – in comics or IRL, I just wonder why the person bothered by others with ‘high and mighty’ religious attitude, won’t just tell them they’re sinners for thinking like this. I mean, in case of christianity there’s helluva lot examples and quotations from the Bible condemning such approach and encouraging empathy and humbleness.
I don’t think it sounded dismissive, personally, but I think especially in such an emotionally charged setup it’s good for people who haven’t lived it to be reminded that there are a LOT of people who have.
Unrelated to today’s comic, something about the Dumbing of Age website has triggered a “malicious content” block for the past couple of weeks. This is especially odd as Shortpacked and the other Walkyverse websites all load without issue. Maybe the router is annoyed that Ultracar doesn’t exist in the DOAverse or something.
Anyway, I finally found a workaround, but Willis, maybe you have a tech guy who can look into this?
And seeing stuff like this happen in my former best friend’s place is one of the many reasons I went pagan. (Technically a combination of American Indian animism/shamanism and Jedi; I guess that qualifies as “pagan”.)
Joyce’s face in the last panel… yeah, I had the same face once. It’s “now how am I going to tell my folks they’re full of shit?”
You know, if you can’t even associate with people who believe differently for fear of losing your faith, it strikes me that your faith was pretty weak to begin with.
You know, that was actually one of the last things I sat down and considered as a strong Christian. If associating with people who believe differently can pull me out of my faith, then what good IS that faith? Which was then followed by a few months of struggles with my faith that ended in me throwing caution to the wind, kissing the (non-Christian) girl I had a crush on (HOMOSEXUALITY, O NOES!), and leaving Christianity for good.
Because it’s true. My faith must have been pretty weak to begin with if being around people who believed differently from me could so destroy it. I believe in other things now, and am married to someone who doesn’t share those beliefs, and we are both content, supportive, and don’t struggle to keep our faith in the face of each other’s unbelief. I definitely know which faith I’ve held is strongest.
Callin my peoples all across the world
This song goes out to all the boys and girls
You want them thugs to come and turn yo’ party out
You better take it to da God, (c’mon) now (uh uh uh)
(uh.. yessuh!)
Speaking as a Christian, Willis’ depiction of Christianity seems to be less any denomination of actual Christianity I have ever heard of and more ‘Westboro Baptist’ every time he explores it. If I didn’t love the cast of characters so much, I’d probably have stopped reading DoA a while back. Any chance of showing any form of Christian that isn’t made of straw or otherwise deeply flawed at some point?
Joyce and her upbringing were based on Willis’ own experiences, you know. Amber, and Billie are both relatively well off Christians (Amber was Catholic in Shortpacked!, while Billie refers to not believing in God as “weird”. Everyone else’s religious beliefs have never been touched upon.
My bad, I forgot about them (insert you’re own joke here). But yeah, of all the confirmed Christians in this comic, all of them except Mary and Joyce’s parents (and Joyce if you feel that way about her) are fairly well rounded.
Alright, that’s a bit harsh. I’m just sick of people saying “Christians don’t do that/this is inaccurate/they’re not ‘real’ Christians” every time a strip mirrors his life.
If you think this is Westboro Baptist Church levels, you have not seen the Westboro Baptist Church in action. That would require a LOT more judgment, even from Joyce. It wouldn’t be “ew sex” it would be “I’m not going to talk to any girls that so much as date for they are a slut and destined for hell, nor will I go on any dates at all myself for I am not a slut” and a lot of other more extreme methods.
First of all, if you think that Joyce’s parents are made of straw, you haven’t been reading the comments. Because quite a few people have chimed in to say “YES, MY PARENTS AND/OR PEOPLE I KNOW WERE EXACTLY LIKE THIS”. Second, Willis has stated MULTIPLE times that Joyce is more or less autobiographical. Third, Sierra is a fairly normal Christian, other than the shoelessness, even though we haven’t seen much of her. Fourth, pretty much everyone is flawed in this comic, so not sure why you’re singling out Christians. And finally, flawed characters tend to be more interesting to read about than flawless ones.
I think anyone who can come to this page, see the HUNDREDS of responses from people who resonate with this storyline, who lived this very life depicted, and are grateful to have somehow survived it… and then still call it fake because it’s inconvenient to their personal worldview…
Or maybe he’s just an ignorant kid who wants to play in a big-boy debate. I remember tearing into a creationist on a message board years ago. It wasn’t until later that I realized his user name was based on a Sponge Bob character.
Well, if I took the time to try to answer everybody who seemed angry or upset about what I said before, I’d be here forever, and unfortunately I have to get back to work. That being said, as a final comment. It’s easy to judge. It’s really easy to hate. Forgiveness, that’s hard. But it feels better. And everybody deserves a break. Everybody.
The Browns themselves may not be as bad as they’ve been coming across, it’s true.
But no one is owed forgiveness. I will not forgive my parents for the emotional and mental abuse they inflicted on me when I was younger, and I am under no obligation to. I don’t owe them anything, least of all forgiveness. I can be gracious, I can be civil, I can even be friendly in the right circumstances, but I will not forgive them and they’re just going to have to deal with that.
While I know you in particular are not trying to use the “everyone deserves a second chance/forgiveness” line in this way, it’s far far too often used as a form of victim blaming and victim shaming, and pulling a person back into an abusive relationship.
The Browns, while setting off my alarm bells, might not actually be manipulative to the point of abuse. But that doesn’t mean everyone who treats people – especially their children – this way should be forgiven.
No one, no one, automatically deserves forgiveness. Only the people they’ve wronged or harmed can decide whether or not they think forgiveness is deserved.
You’re making a couple mistakes in my view. You’re right no one is owed forgiveness. On the other hand forgiveness isn’t really FOR the person that did the wrong. Its to allow you to get past the festering boil that holding a grudge is. Doesn’t mean you have to allow someone a chance to hurt you again, far from it. Allowing yourself to continue with life wiser and yet hopefully freed. Keeping in mind the line between self preservation and crippling paranoia isn’t really that wide.
But, no. The person you’re talking to doesn’t need to forgive their parents for this. Not all “grudges” need that kind of treatment. Not all “grudges” stop us from living free lives.
You are confusing “getting over” something with “forgiving” something, and furthermore presuming an awful lot about someone else’s emotional and mental well-being. If I were Mat, I’d tell you to take your opinion and shove it.
Important note: Under no conditions should anybody ever suggest that there is any onus upon a victim (even for said victim’s own benefit) to forgive. Doing so does not help the victim but, instead, takes part in the victimization.
That is what you’re doing right now.
So, the next time you find yourself about to say something along the lines of “You need to try to forgive”, don’t. Just don’t. Do not do that, stop yourself from saying it and, in so doing, improve yourself immensely.
Forgiveness feels like the same wound reinflicted ad nauseam. Nobody deserves a break. Breaks are designed to prevent somebody from saying “Stop doing that, it hurts me”. They are designed by people who hurt others and wish to be able to do so repeatedly.
It’s easy to ask for forgiveness. It’s easy to put together a story to explain shitty treatment. Making personal behavioral adjustments, that’s hard.
But that’s what I’m talking about. If someone is remorseful of their actions and wishes to change their behavior, then it is my belief they should be forgiven.
I can’t agree with that. If someone who does horrible things — say, a school bully– experiences the emotional and moral growth to stop doing those things, and instead tries to help people, wants to make up for and heal the harm he has done as much as possible, is forgiveness unneccessary? Does it matter that (some of) his former victims won’t forgive the man of 30 for what the boy of 15 did? I think it does matter — it’s a continuing psychological wound for them and for him. Past behavior never stops mattering as long as anyone remembers it, because that memory colors perceptions and expectations from then on.
I also think remorse matters a great deal. If there’s no remorse, why change the behavior in the first place?
There are lots of reasons to change behavior that don’t involve remorse — like, not wanting to be punished any more for what you did?
You’re operating on a psychological model that treats everyone’s emotional health the same way, assumes that there is an insultingly simple recipe for psychological recovery. You need to accept that forgiveness is not a magic bullet, and to stop presuming to tell other people how to fix their lives. I mean, jeez, where do you even get this confidence, let alone the arrogance attached.
The thirty-year-old man’s turnaround is obviously admirable to outside observers. But it does not obligate his previous victims to do a damned thing. It doesn’t undo what he did to them, and he doesn’t get to control how they feel about it fifteen years later. He might want their forgiveness or even feel that he needs it, but he doesn’t automatically get it. They don’t owe him anything.
And if he only fixed his behavior because he thought he would get cookies for it, then he’s not really that remorseful, is he. True remorse means accepting someone else’s right to kick you in face (emotionally) for what you did and not expecting to get anything out of that kick to the face. A desire to make yourself feel better about the shit you did when you were a kid means going door to door begging people for their forgiveness.
I feel like at some point, we’re going to see Joyce talking to Leslie or some other third party about all this, because I’m pretty sure she’s feeling super conflicted about all this.
They may be taking it to God, but Joyce seems to be the only one listening to what God is saying. Which is totally different from what her dad is saying.
I am 100% grateful my parents were NOT like this. Using prayer to guilt trip someone into what you wanna do is reprehensible, not to mention how awful and rude they were. My Mom’s worst was to say “Ill pray for them”, and even then, it was only for God’s Will. I am pagan now, and Mom only has ever said “I still love you. That doesn’t change.” She said it about my orientation too, but that’s another storyline. (Run, Ethan!)
I love Joyce. because she and I have similar upbringings, although my parents weren’t as stuck in the religious quicksand. I know the torture she’s going through, trying to be the good Christian and yet at the same time acknowledging that the blind teachings that manifest in the human evolution of the religion are wrong. There’s still a lot of good Christians, with right thinking, and open minds, and tolerance. There’s still a lot of deceived/deceivers in the religion too. But that’s true for any kind of grouping you can create.
Thanks for making this storyline, David. It’s important, which means it’s volatile, and you tell it well. Just don’t hurt Joyce too much. I am very protective.
I wonder if Joshua’s advice to pick her battles wasn’t actually aimed about converting the atheist, but instead choosing when to argue with their parents?
This storyline really makes me sad because this is how my parents are. They misinterpret people because of their sexuality of interests. I have to make sure to tell particular friends not to tell my parents what they believe in because my parents will want to make sure that I am not going down the path of “darkness”. God I understand Joyce so much right now(And like twenty other times but whatever). = )-=
I am a fundamentalist Christian and a strong conservative. That being said, I feel Joyce’s parents are wrong here. Joyce does more to demonstrate the love of God by being open about her faith, but not being closed to others.
That’s… that’s actually quite sickening. It really does look like brainwashing, where the name of God is invoked in order to allow further parental control over her.
We don’t really get people like that here in England. Christians are (for the most part) pretty liberal and relaxed. How widespread is this kind of brainwashing/control in America? I always assumed that this kind of far-right Christianity was just very vocal and disproportionately powerful, rather than being too much of a reality among ordinary people.
It really depends on where you live, for the most part. The Northeastern states and California are mostly liberal, and as such most people are lax when it comes to religion. In the Deep South and Midwest (the so-called Bible Belt), on the other hand, things are way more strict.
But that’s just the stereotypes. Every person is an individual, although religion has a much bigger role in America than in Western Europe.
Again, they really missed the boat on setting a good example? Jesus’ whole THING was associating with sinners and treating them as equals. Well, except for that one non-Jewish woman he called a dog but even Jesus can have bad days.
Well, not if he’s perfect can’t. But, it’s worthy of note that the easiest example of Jesus not being perfect is where he doesn’t treat a stranger with the utmost respect she deserves.
Well, the problem with that is our language doesn’t have the nuance of the original text. Jews called the Samaritans dogs, but it would be translated as a mongrel, feral and disgusting thing. The word Jesus used was of a lapdog or family pet, so he was actually being incredibly kind.
This is the same problem of “Wives obey your husbands.” It is actually huppo tasso (sp?) and refers to being under military authority. I.e. the husband has the authority and responsibility to make a decision, but if he does that unilaterally or abuses that authority, he will be judged for those actions.
Sorry for the long rant, but I always try to explain to people a more accurate reading of what’s in the Bible.
(if you think your explanation for the “wives obey your husbands” thing makes it better, then you don’t understand the problem with it in the first place)
To Winged Beast: Context is everything, take for example the “Turn the other cheek.” The left hand was “unclean;” and a backhand slap with the right meant that you were beneath them. Turning your cheek meant that they either needed to slap you with the palm of their hand and initiate a challenge or punch you, initiating a fistfight. In any case, it forces the person that was the jerk must either walk away and admit defeat or acknowledge the other person as an equal.
To Mr. Willis, I guess you have never had a boss or someone with the authority to make a decision on what direction to take a business; if the boss ignores good input, in the Christian belief system, they will be judged for that. I am assuming that you aren’t familiar with the fact that husbands are supposed to love and cherish their wives to the point of being killed for them. Thus, decisions should never be made that are not nurturing to their spouse. In fact Christians are going to be judged as well as the non-believers and many of them will be weeping before they get to heaven (think of it as a pre-trial agreement). Not only are our actions, but even our motives will be judged, it is a terrifying reality if you really look at what it means in the life of the average believer that is almost identical to a secular person.
Another way to think of it is as a dance, who initiates is not important, but someone will be held accountable in the end; according to the Bible, it is the husband. Back to the military example, it is the same as an O-3 can be held responsible for the actions of those under them.
In my own life, in no way do I consider those under my command lesser than me, but they do have an obligation to follow my final decisions unless it conflicts with a greater duty and I will be held responsible for the decisions I make.
Men and women are the co-heirs of the grace of God. If a Lieutenant thinks they are “better” than their Chief, they are in error, each has a role and is held accountable to said role. Often the chief’s decisions are sound and followed after input, but the officer has final say. Even in the Bible, Eve sinned first, but everything in the Bible refers to the sin of Adam for the condition of the world, and it even mentions that Adam was present and did nothing; the fault is placed entirely on him.
The worst thing is that most Christians do not truly live like Christians and offer compassion to everyone. I do not know of many other Christians that are willing to have a conversation with homeless people and buy them a meal when going to work instead of simply saying they don’t have money. The faith has been greatly diluted since its initial founding and it is sad because it was something that transformed the world and actually influenced most modern western views of morality.
Again, I know that you all have different views, but I really wish that you had encountered others that really reflected the way we were meant to be instead of hateful people that used a single verse or two out of context to hurt others. Again a long rant, if you want to continue this discussion, I think my email address is included in this, but if not, please let me know and I will contact you.
You say I am not familiar with this material. To the contrary, I have heard roughly fifteen billion sermons given on the “Wives submit to your husbands; husbands love your wives” bit of Ephesians, all spent trying to explain how it wasn’t actually awful. And back then, I had to agree with this interpretation, because believing in Biblical Inerrancy as I did, I was kind of stuck with the passage.
But it is awful, and no amount of “oh it’s like in the military when your boss tells you what to do but it’s okay because he’s looking out for you” makes it not awful.
That is because fuck stupid gender roles. Fuck them in the fucking ass. Maybe the husband should submit to his wife instead! Maybe they should be two equal partners! Maybe they should figure out a relationship dynamic that they can agree on between them instead of adhering to some second-century jackass’s rigid and unyielding idea of what a husband and a wife are about!
(That “second-century” bit wasn’t a mistake. Ephesians probably wasn’t actually written by Paul. Paul was way less interested in promoting gender roles, for one thing.)
So you can go on and on and on about bosses and military ranking as much as you want, but those very descriptions are EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE PASSAGE TO BEGIN WITH. It’s second-century sexist trash and you shouldn’t defend it.
If two equal partners disagree, how is the conflict settled and who bears the weight of making that choice? Obviously, you have pretty strong views about this and I will ignore your hyperbole since I have studied this for years as well. I’m not sure we can have a meaningful conversation about this, but I am more than happy to keep the back and forth going as long as we keep this from personal attacks.
The main facts are that if you accept Christian doctrine, even within the Godhead, there are roles, God the Father makes the plan, God the Son Executes it, and God the Spirit facilitates it. No role is lesser than the other. In the New Testament, humans can fulfill this example in marriage or go to the higher calling of being celibate (as I have been [and this is celibacy as refraining from dating/marriage, not no sex until marriage as most people interpret it]). In the end, men and women will be completely and utterly equal; there will be no marriage, they will be as the angels and operating in a completely different manner.
I obviously will have to answer for my beliefs if it turns out that those passages were written to specific churches at specific times as I believe the issue with women teaching, and the hair issue was (and boy was that messed up). Again, I have to operate knowing that I am going to stand in judgment and so my actions are really meant to be done in the greatest love for those around me. I look forward to your response.
Also, I am assuming you deliberately took the quote about being yoked to a non-believer from the statement that people shouldn’t seek out and marry non-Christians and were making sure that you displayed Joyce’s parents are some pretty awful people (Who I would be in a pretty big argument with). Anyways, as much as I have a bit of a snark with your treatment of Christianity, I really like your comic.
Of course we may have other issues when I manage to catch up with the other versions of your comic :).
Actually, I was hoping to show how our language is not the best for those who don’t really study ancient languages and know the context of what life was like 2000 years ago. To put it very simply, if Jews normally called Samaritans dogs, filth or mongrels; Jesus called them puppies. He was using the sad prejudices of the time and neutering them. I can’t provide a full discourse in a comment or two, but the thing is, without the willingness to study, most people only have a bizarre view of what Christianity is supposed to be like from miss-interpretations.
Really, however you use the canine reference, it is a refusal to aid someone and the use of a racial slur. That’s hardly kindness. Really, the best you can come out with that is a lesser evil, in that he only helped her after she accepted her relative moral value as being that of a dog.
What you’re mainly showing is your readiness to grant excuses to Jesus that one shouldn’t grant to mere mortals.
In response to your assertion of a racial slur. Do you really think we are so much better speaking of People of Color, African Americans or Blacks versus the horribly offensive name people were given less than a century ago and still do today?
For some reason I don’t recall the exact verse you are talking about, so I may be misremembering the surrounding info, but Jesus always seemed to be pretty consistent about reaching out to those who were disenfranchised and ripping a new one to the religious establishment.
Our lag time seems to be about a day, so hopefully we can keep this dialogue going by Sunday.
Matthew 15:22-28:
A woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed. But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Really, there’s no way that comes out with a morally perfect Jesus. A woman comes for help, he calls her a dog, and does not help her until she accepts that degradation. Any human being could be said to be overcoming their own bigotry in that, or even putting up a show for the disciples. But, such a show would be, at best, a lesser evil, not moral perfection.
Are we (myself being a straight white male and thus the recipient of much privilege in the US) that much better? Perhaps not. But, then again, we are not claiming to moral perfection.
Sorry for the late response, so I am not sure if you will actually see it or not. Jesus had to work incrementally with his followers because of centuries of ingrained beliefs. Most, if not all, people of that time were not ready to accept his message if he flat out stated the standards and how they should live. As I said earlier, the word he used for dog was a pet, i.e. part of the family which would be shocking to any Jew that heard him say it.
Obviously we are both viewing this through different lens, so here is how I view it. Jesus travelled through an area that Jews were willing to add a day or so of travel time to go around and avoid contact with its people. He was even willing to talk to someone from there, previously he had to send his followers ahead so that he could talk to the woman at the well and they were pretty upset when they got back and found he had spoken with her.
He stated his mission, to reveal the truth to Israel who were then to go on and preach to the world, which actually happened with the early church. He then helps her over the objection of his followers. Jesus never denied aid to anyone that sought it, he just said that it was not his mission to preach to the gentiles. Heck, he made most of the Jews furious because he was willing to associate and help those who were not Jews that sought him out while he was teaching the Jews.
You don’t see the disciples actually understanding almost any of his teachings until afterwards with the there is no longer Jew or gentile, etc. I think you are getting hung up on the wording without knowing the world view that he was having to work to change. At this point, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. Have a good one.
Here’s what I saw. He said “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” likening her to a dog in relative moral value to the Jewish people of the time.
Regardless of which word he used, that was literally a dehumanizing phrase. And, it was not until she accepted that place and thus accepted that dehumanization that he helped her.
Perfect would have been being ready to help her and refusing to let her belittle herself. Perfect would have been not playing into the racism of his followers in the first place.
What you are showing, here, is not the perfection of Jesus, but your own readiness to lower the standards of judgment to meet Jesus and God.
Again, we are both looking through different filters. The entire point of Israel was that it was it was supposed to receive the message of God and spread it to the world, but continued to fail to do so, hence the change from Israel to the new church. God had chosen a certain group to be ambassadors to the world by some pretty amazing things, they utterly failed and so were placed on the bench. Notice that Jesus never did play into the racism of his followers and ALWAYS helped those that sought him out over their objections, every time from lepers (AIDS in our day is the best example to hated social groups). If you want to change people’s minds, it is hard to do so by saying they aren’t worthy of your knowledge and working on your own, the fact he condescended to them allowed the formation of Christianity in the first place. Meeting people where they are instead of where they is a hallmark of this.
You and I are showcases that people cannot accept a radically different world view with a statement from one person. As I said before, this is an instance where someone went far outside the accepted cultural norms to show others that it was acceptable. You are focusing on the fact that Jesus was not able to preach the way that, after two THOUSAND years we can accept that all people are equal, yet a good chunk of the world still will not believe that.
Jesus did not preach that all people are equal. He was especially pro-Jew and anti-Gentile, and this is even through the filter of the Gentiles who wrote about him decades after he had died.
Paul’s Jesus was more egalitarian, but Paul’s Jesus doesn’t resemble the real Jesus much.
Great, you’ve got your own tribal hubris on top of your lowered standards for Jesus.
But, let’s go to another bit. Jesus comes up to a fig tree that is not in season to bare fruit. It is not Jesus’s tree. Despite both of these things, he curses the tree.
Now, if Jesus were not claimed to be perfect, this would be the action of a person. It wouldn’t be the most horrible thing. And, among the rest of the actions claimed of Jesus in the bible, it’d still leave him better than most.
But, it would still leave him imperfect. Imperfection is, if not an excuse, a condition with which we are all familiar. It grants one a little leeway.
Perfection, on the other hand, doesn’t get any leeway granted and can have no excuse. Damage to property not his own absent any good done otherwise… not good.
Making a woman accept the relative moral value of a dog… not good.
Casting demons into someone else’s herd of swine, their livelihood, and driving those swine away… It could be alright for a normal mortal who’s doing the best he imperfectly can. But, not for the totally perfect.
I’m viewing this from a filter that… doesn’t filter so much. I look at the action and judge it. You, on the other hand, are quite blatantly filtering. You look at who it is that did the action and judge it on the preconception that that person is morally perfect.
This doesn’t make you, or Christianity, look good. It makes you look morally bankrupt. It makes you look like somebody for whom morality is infinitely malleable unto your desire to please God.
Oh, and similarly, your thinking that you, as a Christian, are the one to shout the message of God because his chosen people had failed… the amazing cultural egotism of that is… disappointing but not surprising.
Mr. Willis, please provide information about how your statement is true, Jesus helped non-Jews throughout his ministry and even said that a Roman centurion had more faith than most Jews.
To WingedBeast, as I said, we apparently cannot have a dialogue that changes our views, I have tried to explain my point of view and yet you are getting ruder with each response. I will be looking for Mr. Willis’s response, but I consider our conversation over.
What gets to me the most is that what they’re really saying, even if they’ve deluded themselves into thinking it’s not, is that they don’t trust Joyce to be responsible enough to make the “right” decisions on her own. They don’t have faith in her or her judgement.
A few years ago, I taught an evening class at a college here, and share an office with another teacher. We would usually cross paths for a few minutes before or after class and exchange pleasantries and that’s it. I don’t remember how it came about, but one evening we wound up having an actual conversation, in which my atheism and her evangelical Christianity came up. We talked for a while, and she asked me a lot of questions, telling me that she’d never talked to someone who had religious views different from her own before (which boggles my mind, but that’s beside the point). I made some points that she couldn’t refute at the moment, and she said she looked forward to continuing the conversation after she did some reading.
Every time I saw her after that, she immediately packed up and left the office. She never said one word to me again. I can’t help but suspect that something similar to this strip happened at her church.
What’s worse is that it’s pretty accurate. I’ve got a few friends who were raised in similar households (except they went to school rather than home school) but under different religions (Seven Day Adventist, Jehovah’s Witness, Southern Baptist, etc.) and they’ve told me how they were pretty much cut off from a lot of things at home and not allowed to join in in what most would consider normal (celebrating birthdays and holidays, club activities after sundown) and restricted in what they could entertain themselves with. One of my friends just celebrated his first ever birthday party with gifts and he just turned 28.
I think what irritates me about this strip is how much Joyce’s brother was trying to bail out, knowing exactly what’s going to happen with their parents, and doesn’t try to defend her opinion. Parents normally have a hard time with trusting their kids when they feel they’re naive and what is Joyce if anything but that? It’ll be hard for her at first to voice her thoughts to them because they’ll always want to “take it to God” (i.e. ignore her) but one of two things will happen: They’ll listen to her completely or they’ll shun her for her thoughts because it differs so much from what they tried to embed into her skull for years. So that last panel really hits home: What fellowship has light with darkness? How can one understand what light is without knowing what is not? You can’t just ignore the dark nor can you deem all that is unknown as dark. That’s gonna be tough sale for her to push, but, if she trusts herself enough to know the good in all (and the wrong) I’m sure Joyce will be OK. Love this comic. Wish it could be animated someday.
*Joyce will be OK with or without her brother’s help. I’ll bet anything that he’s fully aware of how close minded his parents are and is either not going to step in so as to avoid whatever wrath of God they may try to enact upon him or so that Joyce can learn to open her eyes for herself. (REALLY wishing we could direct edit comments)
Gah, I feel bad for Joyce. Whichever way she goes from here will be painful for her. But this might also be where she breaks off from her parent’s beliefs. Where she goes is another question.
I noticed a couple other people mentioning the idea that Joyce’s eyes opening represented her becoming more open minded as well, but I was struck by something else I considered interesting in that. It is the fact that she opened her eyes during prayer, and I could not see Joyce ever doing that before her parents’ reaction to Dorothy angered her. I also never registered her strong hesitation before agreeing to take it to God, despite enjoying this moment quite a bit. I know this is quite a bit after the original posting, but it bugged me to not mention it.
The ying yang is an illustration of slight dancing across the hills. Where there is light at one time, there is later shadow. Platonists, like most Christians, will then answer that the sun is the source of light, but there is no source of darkness but the absence of the sun. That ignores that the nature of things is to be different in light and dark, like how flower blooms open and close with light and darkness, so a life of only light doesn’t fulfill the true nature of things. The darkness doesn’t disappear with sunlight, it can be found in the hope for balance, for night and day, darkness and light.
Light has no fellowship with the dark, but the truth can be found in neither alone.
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I have a feeling this is how the Browns solve most of their problems.
“Honey? The dog pooed all over the rug!”
Now, now. Let’s take it to God.
“That’s okaaaay”
“Dad, the fast food workers screwed up our order.”
“Now, now. Let’s take it to God.”
“Uh, Dad, I think I’m pregnant.”
“Now, Now, Joshua, let’s take it to– wait, ewwww.”
“Uh, Dad, I killed the postman”
“Now now, lets take it to God”
“Dad! Dad! I ate two of my older brothers!”
“Now, Now, Joyce, let’s take it to God.”
“Dad, you’re not gonna believe this, but the Mormons were right all along.”
“Now, now, let’s- wait, WHAT?!”
“But they’re not even Christians!”
Darn non-editing comment system.
if I may, Mormons are not Christians in the same way cheese is not a dairy product.
Since the reply option isn’t showing up on the relevant post: Kaci, as a Mormon myself, I completely agree. But that doesn’t mean I won’t poke fun at my religion now and again. ^.^
I just like using cheese references 😀
That reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PXaJxzuDE
It doesn’t cross any lines I hope.
Well I know that from a few academic perspectives Mormonisn isn’t actually Christianity. The inclusion of a new holy book is enough to just make it another Abrahamic religion.
Of course the problem is you get people using that as a point of discrimination or something similar – I’m not Christian myself, and personally I’d probably still classify Mormonism as a Christian denomination.
Assuming you define Christianity as the worship of Jesus Christ as the son of God, Mormonism would be Christianity, but it would be a different branch in the same ranking as Catholicism and Protestantism (is that the right word?).
Like how biological classification works; Religion is the encompassing “Everything”, Monotheism is the Kingdom, Christianity is the Phylum, Catholicism, Protestantism(?), and Mormonism would be the Orders, and so on as it branches out from there.
“Daddy! I killed DC Comics Hitler!”
“Now now, lets take it to God”
“And Stephanie Brown!”
“I don’t think we should tell God…”
“Um… Dad…? I think I killed God.”
“Now Now, lets take it to– who do we take it to if God is Dead?”
the beyOnd-maN, of cO ursE! ..
Is he friends with the Slenderman?
That…no, it doesn’t even make sense!
Why? I once knew a girl who was married to Slenderman. He’s a nice guy.
I think he’s much older and unrelated to Slenderman. Although he is related to Superman, and some people call him Superman.
No, the other post.
Then is he like Nietzsche, then?
Beyond-man is the early English translation of Ubermensch. So yeah, the concept was Nietzsche’s.
So this means that Nietzsche is not dead yet!
http://squallloir.tumblr.com/post/57717924814
“Dad, the oven just burst into flames!”
“Now, now. Let’s take it to God.”
Wake up Maggie I think I’ve got something to say to you!
It’s late September and I really should be back at school….
“Now, Now, let’s take it to Rod!”
God, in this case, being the player, since they are apparently Sims. (Seriously, how many times did that happen to me?)
“Dad, Dad, the flames have turned into a pile of kittens that are all chanting the five secret names of God backwards!”
“Now, now, let’s take it to… *Listens and tries to decipher.* Alorgisar”
“Hey Dad? I think i had sex with god”
“Now now, lets ta- Wait what? Joshua no! Even god shouldn’t do that!”
“Seriously! Even he won’t have sex with you!”
“And god ‘LOVES’ all his children!”
If all of humanity is God’s children…does that make Jesus’ conception incest?
Oh dear lord xD well technically no and yes, because jesus became god’s son only after he died. I think. I’m not really jewish xD so technically yes, and no.
Your theology’s off.
…yeah, the whole idea behind the immaculate conception is that Jesus is directly God’s son.
Actually, no. The “whole idea” behind the Immaculate Conception does not directly have to do with Jesus – it refers to his mother, Mary, who was born without Original Sin.
Well, you can’t really untangle Jesus from the equation considering he’s the one being conceived. Mary’s a virgin who is pregnant with Jesus because God has the power to impregnate women that way. All 3 are integral to the conception shenanigans.
And I’m moderately sure Mary being sinless is a Catholic thing. Doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the Immaculate Conception, given that Protestants don’t have a sinless Mary but keep the Immaculate Conception idea.
It does, actually. According to the scriptures, God reached down and prevented the transfer of Original Sin to Mary so that she would spiritually fit to give birth to Jesus. Jesus’ own conception is called the Incarnation, in any case.
I call shenanigans. A cursory glance at the intro of the four gospels reveals no such thing. You’ll need to provide a reference to overcome my skepticism.
The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Immaculate Conception refers to the sinless state of Mary. Pope Pius IX proclaimed this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on December 8, 1854.
The doctrine can be seen here… http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p9ineff.htm
… though…. Christians who reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception maintain that there is no biblical support or basis for it.
And that is true. … so if you are a practicing Roman Catholic, you got to believe what the Church says. If you are not one, then you got a choice.
So both sides are right!
Actually, Original Sin isn’t in the bible, it’s one of the things the Catholic church added in to their theology in the years since it was codified.
So, the scriptures don’t say anything about it, because the idea didn’t exist yet, or to be charitable, hadn’t been extrapolated yet, when they were written.
Yep, Immaculate Conceptions refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus, and is solely Catholic, sorry, Crimson Magic.
Humanity are all Gods Children. – God the Father of all mankind.
God made Adam and Eve. – Adam and Eve are therefore Siblings
God made Eve from Adam’s rib. – Eve is Adam’s gender swapped Clone. – Eve is Adam’s Daughter. – Eve has two Fathers.
Eve and Adam had children, – They had sex, it was Parent-child and sibling incest.
All there children are simultaneously their own Uncle-Nephew or Aunt-Niece.
as there was no one else to marry Adam’s Sons married Eve’s Daughters, Seeing as they were all siblings, The entire human race is the product of incest,
Secondly you are the cousin of everyone else in the human race.
To all of you who are married and/or have had relations,
Congratulations you have loved your cousin you red neck you.
Two identical (or identical gender swapped) clones having children could only produce the same genetics that existed in the original. So not only is everyone really incesting it up, but everyone who doesn’t look exactly alike is a mutant.
This is actually a point of discussion I really enjoy:
When the bible says God created man, was it procreation or invention?
That is, are men literal children of god, and that at some point man would mature into another god. Or were men invented by god, similar to how a man would invent some kind of sentient artificial intelligence.
@A5PECT – In my opinion A God or Gods would create an Intelligent species by way of evolution. Seeing as it is far easier to make minor changes over time, than it is to make an entire genome from scratch. The latter being harder in two points, one that the God/Goddess would have to fully understand the base-4 programming language of DNA and RNA, second that it would be much harder to tailor the DNA to survival within an ecosystem it has not evolved with.
Regardless of either Origin, There is no reason for a God/Goddess to create an intelligent species unless they intend to Ascend/Evolve that species into a new generation of Gods/Goddesses.
I mean think about it, The universe has entropy decay. The universe just after the big bang had many stars and galaxies. Since then the stars and galaxies have become fewer in number of new stars and the galaxies have drifted into clustered strings, there is a lot of empty cold space in the universe now. Eventually Entropy decay combined with the last sun going dark will mean, that matter will continue to get colder and colder, till atoms disperse into particles, and particles disperse into quantum particles, eventually the manifolds of these particles will also unravel and separate, and sometime after that the dimensions of space-time will also no longer have the energy to hold together and everything will dissolve back into the quantum foam of the void.
This end awaits all intelligent life that can’t technologically or spiritually evolve to the point of becoming what we mortals term “Gods”.
Here are the Goals we need to evolve to.
1. Being able to escape this reality for another reality,
2. Travel Backwards and forwards through time
3. Travel to alternate realities, universes, Multi-verses.
4. Create a Universe from scratch by causing a big bang,
5. Being able to customize the physics of the universes we live in or create.
6. Understand Base-4 DNA and RNA such that we can program life from scratch.
7. Able to Design our own biological and technological programming languages.
If we can’t evolve to do all of these 7 goals we fail.
and we will die with the rest of this universe.
We become Gods or we die, there are no other alternatives, and no second chances.
My concept of incest can be best described with a quote from a very funny Harry Potter fanfiction: “If you know how closely related you are to someone, you’re too closely related to date.”
Well that basically exempts the entire human race for me.
Seeing as Science has traced the Y chromosome[Father] and the mitochondria[Mother] back to two single individuals as the potential parents of the entire human race.
Second
Went to a singles dance with some cousins from my father’s side, they introduced me to a girl to dance with, her reaction upon meeting me, “Cousin !” she was from my mother’s side of the family.
I don’t date much anymore.
“Dammit Hank, I’ve told you not to call me anymore!”
“But God, it’s raining outside and I don’t have an umbrella and I’m going to get all wet-”
“Alright, fine, I’ll help you this time.”
“How do you keep getting this number?”
“I know a guy. He has all the numbers.”
“His name is God”
“What? But, huh?”
“Just once I’d like to get through my meal without someone calling me. I JUST calmed Einstein and Hitler down enough to get them to apologize to calling my kid a traitor. We got a game in a few hours, people!”
+1 for Artemis Fowl reference.
“Dad, the gardener just fell on his hedge trimmers and is bleeding everywhere”
“Now, now. Let’s take this to God. And by God I mean the neighbor’s yard”
Fell on the hedge trimmers? Bullshit! LESLIE TILLER WAS FUCKING MURDERED!
I love you. and this reference.
Now I have wanted to see Hot Fuzz all over again.
“But it was for the greater good!”
“The greater good…”
“Shut it”
Not most problems. Just the ones where a family member is ‘off message’.
“Well I know you want to be a rock singer and not a doctor, little Timmy, but I think we should check with God…”
“Huh, it looks like God is totally down with it. Timmy, you should be a Rock Star. Also, he said something about Enterprise.”
‘Take it up with God’ indeed….
And yea, that’s clear passive-aggressiveness laced codependant control baloney if I ever saw it (and, directly and indirectly, I’ve seen a LOT of it) The Browns can convince themselves this has anything to do with God rather than having to let go of the umbilical cord all they want…
Something tells me Joshua and Joyce’s other brothers got tired of being stonewalled and shut down all the time, and that’s why Joshua brought up that he was only here for the big game, and why Joyce teased him about never being around.
He and the others probably pray to God a lot, asking to throw their parents a mulligan, for fear Mr.and Mrs.Brown’ll unwittingly reject the Kingdom of Heaven once they both pass on by doing something like this the second they catch wind of something at the pearly gates that doesn’t conform to their fixed ideas.
I wonder what Joshua and Joyce’s other brothers are doing with their lives?
Is this… a real thing that happens? The “take it to God” thing where the parents just talk down to the kid? I learned really fast not to question anything about religion, in my own house, if I didn’t want a 120db lecture on the subject. Not exactly the same, but still negative reenforcement.
Anyone have a “right” way to go about this? I honestly can’t think of a way to defend archaic things like not fraternizing with atheists. At least not without relying on fiat.
Whatever you do, remain calm. It gives you a chance when they are being loud and unreasonable to point out that you are calm and that they too should relax and discuss this like rational adults. Be patient, wait for them to waiver, then hammer hard your point. It is important to remain in controll, both of the conversation and yourself.
It happened to me. All the time.
I’ll admit, my parents never did such a thing. My dad actually scoffed at all the praching (preaching + praying) that went on during the pastoral prayer at the church my family goes to. But it’s definitely something that goes on. I resonate with this situation far more than the situation in the last strip.
“Dad, I think I might be dyslexic!”
“Now, now. Let’s take it to Dog.”
ilu. <3
http://squallloir.tumblr.com/post/57720710778/take-it-to-dog-with-and-without-fez
Which, you know, is *not* the worst way to deal with problems. There are much better ways for sure. But praying together and holding each other…passive aggressive or not…is a good way to forgive and move on for the majority of stupid family spats. Like this-hopefully Joyce learns to continue thinking on her own.
I want to emphasize again that I don’t approve how passive-aggressive the father is, but the method itself is okay. It’s probably extremely comforting for families with faith.
I only have a problem with this method personally when families do this for illnesses. “Oh honey, let’s not go to the doctor. Let’s PRAY the disease away.”
…Yeah, you deserve those neglect charges.
The context, however, is suspect.
It’s looking like they’re using that method to make the fact their daughter won an argument with them, due to their judging someone without even trying to get to know them, just go away…Using it as a shield, you could say.
In doing so, they let Joyce down. They let her down real bad, and past “fundies SUXXXX0RZ!!!” arguements, that’s where the problem lies: A pedestal has been broken.
What’s wrong here is that they aren’t asking God; they are TELLING God what to think. This is a lecture disguised as a prayer.
Yep, Letters of the Preston Family all over again, the Middle Ages having been over with for centuries be damned.
Doesn’t even end with Religion or anti-progressive beliefs, either. We’re talking about Manipulative Reasoning 101 here, because sonder doesn’t get pyramids built for some big shot’s glory.
You could still pray while going to a doctor.
Well, yeah. Let’s re-quote my original comment:
“Oh honey, let’s NOT go to the doctor. Let’s PRAY the disease away.”
I don’t think Joyce’s family is this stupid. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a Joyce. And also, she trusted the school nurse to give her the flu shot.
idea from previous play-time with Crimson Doom:
“Hey Dad, cheese is a dairy product.”
“Now, now. Let’s take it to God.”
Umm… Passive aggressive ass-holery?
At least they’re not exorcising her!
It zooms in on her face. The Brown’s could have set up candles and stuff in that time.
Mood lighting can really undercut someone’s feeling of self-worth
Wait until Joyce’s head turns 720.
RIIIIIIIIIISE…
“RIIIIIISE and Vote CanvasHat!”
Rise of the Demoncratic Process.
Vote CanvasHat Demoncrat nominee 2016
https://twitter.com/squallstaffan/status/365334085687726081
New Campaign Poster
“Your mother sucks cocks in hell!”
Before the page was fully loaded, that’s almost what I thought was actually happening.
it’s not too late. There’s more comics in this arc.
Of course there’s also a chance that she’ll think that God is telling her not to abandon her friends just because her parents think it’s the right call.
That would be getting ahead of themselves. One step at a time.
Or just aggressive, flat-out.
Just remember kids, there are actual parents who are much worse than this
But there’s plenty who are better :3
Indeed.
Like the kind that is a single mother and falls asleep in the tub while you have friends over?
are you suggesting what I think you’re suggesting? >_> <_<
If you’re thinking that having a friend with a mother like that is awesome, then yes.
Probably not as awesome for the friend, though.
Maybe, just maybe, that mother lets her kid have friends over, so she can take time to relax from taking care of her kid the best she can? What if she’s a really good (AND hot) mom.
Yeah, these are the kind that accept you having a different religion and hate you, but overall just leave you alone about it. I’ve met the kind that tries to force their views upon you without consent.
Though honestly, I just find it hilarious when one of those southern preachers comes down to my school and starts telling people that they’re going to hell. Seeing that stereotype just cracks me up every time.
And then there are crazy lab experiments where they raise a kid with no parents at all and it’s pretty horrible. But ‘m not bitter or anything.
Oh, noes! *Hugs*
…Ok, I was wrong. They instead prove that they are in a cult instead
Now now, it’s not a cult until they have a picture of tentacle-Ziggy on the wall.
Well, we haven’t seen the inside of their house in the Dumbiverse yet…
It’s a haunted place. You can’t sit down for all the doilies…
Fundamentalist Christianity basically IS a glorified cult, imo. And that’s coming from someone who grew up in it.
Yes, I was prayed over like this a LOT.
There’s two kinds of gettin’ prayed over, and lemme tell ya, this is the wrong one. It’s actually kinda comforting when you asked somebody to do it, but when you didn’t, even if you knew it was coming ’cause everybody else in your youth group was getting prayed at or something, it goes from comforting straight into they-are-touching-me-and-I-am-not-happy-with-that.
PRETTY MUCH. and since I was really private with any personal stuff I had going down, I didn’t get much of the comforting nice kind.
It was all the uncomfortable claustrophobic oh g-d oh g-d stop touching me please except i can’t say that because isn’t this what g-d wants? kind. :/
OMGosh I am sorry O_o
Fellowship of the fiive gooolden riiiiings.
I thought it was the Fellowship of the One Ring? That’s light and darkness right there with Gollum stalking the hobbits.
Fellowship of four colly birds? Is this where this is going?
It’s “calling” birds.
And Fellowship of the Three French Hens.
Don’t get me started on the Fellowship of the Two Turtle Doves.
So where was the Fellowship of the Partridge in the Pear Tree? Did I miss that one>
You fool! You’ve doomed us all! The Fellowship of the Partridge in a Pear Tree must not be named, or else the power of Christmas will be unleashed!
Nut punch him. God will forgive you and quite likely thank you.
I gotta say… that looks more like some sort of new age meditation ritual than a prayer. I guess I was doing it wrong.
You know, this bothers me, because the verse at the end “fellowship in darkness” is specifically referring to marriage. It’s a part of the Bible discussing marriage and relationships, and it’s saying, “Hey, generally marrying someone who doesn’t also believe in God is going to make your marriage potentially not work, and I don’t think it’s a very good idea.”
It is not about who you should and shouldn’t be friends with.
Joyce and Dorothy are secretly engaged.
Maybe they think she wants to marry Dorothy.
“Well. if you like her so much why don’t you marry her!”
Seems legit.
Naw, they’d need to move to Vermont first. Too much effort
The way things are going, soon they might just need to move to Illinois.
Iowa is a lot closer anyway
Maybe they fear that Joyce has turned into a LUG-nut.
A fan of Linux User Groups?
A fan of LEGO User Groups?
Well she did say she loved her 2 comics ago…
…You really think that makes a difference to the Browns?
There are plenty of things for them to choose to take out of context out there. I doubt this is the only occasion.
They just Godwin’d because Joyce has an atheist friend… you’re really surprised about them taking a Bible verse out of context after that?
So, I just read 2 Corinthians Chapter 6 (where the quote seems to be from), and it very much does not seem to be specifically talking about marriage. The Browns are not speaking out of context.
Yup. Here’s the way the Message puts it:
“Don’t become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That’s not partnership; that’s war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God’s holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives.”
A lot of people interpret that in the context of marriage, but that’s not the only way that passage can be read.
Try reading that passage in a different translation to see how it compares.
But we’re looking at multiple translations of an ancient text (though most translations are actually translations of translations) so it’s possible that some of the translations refer to it in the context of marriage and some as a general partnership. Either way, since we’re not reading the original, it’s really hard to say what it meant definitively. (especially since there wasn’t punctuation in the way we know it now, languages shift over time and slang we don’t know was used.)
I initially used the King James version, since that’s what I grew up with as a Mormon kid. New International Version was more or less the same. If you can find a version that contradicts my, please post the reference here.
At any rate, Paul considered marriage largely meaningless, since he believed the Second Coming was imminent. It would be strange to interpret anything he wrote as applying to only marriage unless he specifically and explicitly said so.
Well St Paul wasn’t exactly the most enlightened individual. I know that’s controversial for a Christian to say, but it’s true.
I’m a little astounded you found that so fast.
Red mage truly is a force to be reconned with.
I’ve put extra ranks into my “Google-fu” skill
What but…I don’t…
Seriously? So all the people I’ve seen using that verse misunderstood it? I wish I’d known that before now.
No, they understand it fine. Axel appears to be mistaken.
Once there is a customary reading, all other readings are mistaken. That’s why you should not be reading the Bible yourself but rather let a preacher explain it to you. It avoids falling into all the mistaken readings and makes faith so much more simple that it’s not funny.
I really can’t tell whether you’re being ironic or not.
I’m moderately sure he’s being sarcastic.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22320444@N08/5269558397/
………………Yeah, they… they don’t make that clear. In the church.
As in, I grew up in that shit, and I didn’t actually realize that until RIGHT NOW. I’m almost 30.
Christians misinterpret verses ALLLLL THE TIMEEEE to justify their hatred. As someone who grew up in a home very similar to this, it’s… very believable LOL.
Meh, I think that can be expanded to people misinterpret, well just about anything to justify what they want.
I know it would be a hard decision for me to tell my parents to piss off.
Yeah, not so much here. If they don’t like my decisions, they can very well stuff it.
You also probably have a lot more rope to rebel than Joyce does.
I would agree, but I got the impression that Joyce’s parents are funding her education and retain the power to yank her out of school (which is why she didn’t want to tell the authorities or her parents about being attacked at the party). I’m guessing that they’re going to secure from her a pledge to stop being Dorothy’s friend before they leave, which she will give in order to be able to stay at school. She may even try to obey for a while out of guilt, but I think eventually she’ll make her own decision.
What is with that praying?
It’s next level praying. you wouldn’t understand
Super Prayin’ level 3!
COM-MUN-NION-MAY-HAAAAAAAA!
I just imagined Hank getting all buff like Kame Sen’nin did. Cuz that was 9000% awesome
+1 LIKE
It’s “Laying on hands” and it’s supposed to like. IDK help the holy spirit get in you through the people praying or something.
IT DIDN’T EVEN MAKE SENSE TO ME WHEN I BELIEVED THIS SHIT, TBH.
It also heals you 1d6 for every two paladin levels.
plus an extra +4 if you’ve got the Healing Shield of the Lord equipped.
Conversely it deals damage to Atheists, blasphemers, the undead, and those equipping cursed gear like the Idolatry of Monkey Master Shirt.
Ouch. That hits Joyce triply. She’s blasphemous for claiming that atheists can be good people and have a moral center, an atheist by association because clearly so much as being nearby an atheist means you share their beliefs, and is wearing Monkey Master stuff. Now we just need to have her secretly be vampiric or something for the full set!
[Note: the entirety of this post, save for the disclaimer that you are currently reading, is meant facetiously, and any resemblance to offensive and ignorant claims is meant in the spirit of parody.]
Well she is going to be taking some damage, but if she succeeds on a will save she’ll only take half damage.
That isn’t blasphemy or idolatry at all…
Sarah called the Dexter and Monkey Master stuff idol worship
Joyce’s parents think that being friends with an atheist is Blasphemy.
QED
Joke is proven.
It’s a type of ritual magic. Which is really weird, because if they saw someone doing exactly the same thing but with some other deity they’d flip the hell out and try to burn them for witchcraft, but despite one of the ten commandments being not to use God that way they do.
That’s nuts; it looks exactly like something you’d do whilst training a dog, to make it submit to your will.
Doing something like this to a vulnerable young person is just abusive, and close enough to brainwashing as makes no difference.
Yeah… even when I was particularly devout, the “laying on hands” practice made me as uncomfortable as hell. Not to mention that it tended to feel forced and pretentious.
This type of prayer is called “praying over” someone or “laying on of hands,” and several forms of Christianity practice it, including mine. (I’m a Mormon.) Laying on of hands, as I know it, is a way of imparting blessings to a specific person. It may be a blessing of healing, or a blessing of comfort and counsel. In my church, priesthood holders also lay on hands when giving the gift of the Holy Ghost to complete a baptism, or when setting someone apart for a calling (volunteer position) in the church.
In my church we believe that God can communicate with each individual. In the context of a blessing by laying on of hands, ideally the speaker listens for God’s guidance in what to say. (Unfortunately, Joyce’s parents do not seem to be listening.) And the person receiving the blessing can listen as well, to understand the words being spoken and discern whether they are from God.
I still don’t get the term “Holy Ghost”. Ghosts are dead, but a divine spirit wouldn’t be.
Holy Ghost=bad English translation of several other bad translations, basically just supposed to reference the incorporeal power of “God” over one’s soul.
*Please note the phrase in that entire run-on sentence I have any faith in is “bad English translation”
Mr. Brown, I don’t feel like you’re helping.
So they use prayer as a thin disguise to guilt-trip their daughter into doing as they say. Get fucked, both of you.
Oh believe me, they do. In the Walkyverse.
Hey Mike, I got a sack of nickels and a special job for you
You’ve really captured that “laying-on-hands squint.” Bravo, Willis.
When the Bible talks about being yoked, I’m fairly certain it refers to marriage.
Nah, I think it’s referring to getting hit with eggs.
No, I’m pretty sure it means build an entry plug.
What are you, some kinda yokester?
Entry plug? Are they trying to syncing her to an Eva or something?
Joyce might not be the best choice for an Eva Pilot.
Worried that she might initiate 3rd Impact?
True. Her mom’s not dead and had her soul shoved into an 80-foot biomachine made to wage war against giant monsters.
Otherwise she’d probably be the most well-adjusted Eva pilot ever, if rather conflicted about supposedly killing the servants of the Abrahamic god.
“But, I have to kill those Angels to save humanity!”
“Now, now, Joyce, let’s take it to God…”
“Can I really throw the Longinus that far?”
Well played.
Through various contorted associations, I find myself envisioning Ruth asking Billie, “Why do you pilot Eva?”
You’re right. Let’s go with Sarah.
Or Ultra Car.
No, dude, it’s about oxen. Do not associate with atheist cattle, man. THOSE COWS BEST BELIEVE IN GOD IF THEY ARE TO ESCORT YOU TO OREGON.
That or they think Joyce was coveting Dotty’s ass.
Wait, that’s not what’s going on?
But that would mean she wants to steal it.
That’s not what coveting means.
By covet most people mean “to want something so much you’d be willing to steal it”. It’s hard to steal a person’s butt though.
The tenth commandment is in fact about stealing a wife which is obviously a type of property that can be stolen according to Bible-reasons.
No. To covet means “to desire what belongs to another.” It’s like envy or jealous. You don’t need to go so far as wanting to steal it. It also means “To wish for earnestly”. So what Plasma Mongoose is saying is that people think “Joyce wants dat ass”/”Joyce really likes looking at Dotty’s bottom”/”Joyce is physically attracted to Dorothy’s clunes”
No, just borrow it for a few glorious hours. Every night. Loudly. Until Sarah gets disgusted and moves out.
Or joins in.
This system needs a Like function…
Or else you will die of Dysentery.
Amen.
The Christian cows are immune to dysentery.
Finding enough holy water to drink is hard, though.
The context of 2 Corinthians Chapter 6 is idolatry, not marriage.
In the words of Koh:
They balance each other: push and pull, life and death, good and evil, yin and yang.
Of course Koh was a giant evil face stealing centipede monster, so perhaps we shouldn’t really be taking advice from him.
The lack of background in the last panel makes me think that Joyce ascended into some astral plane.
She’s going to find out that the Cosmic Owl is the one true religion.
She met the Ancients!
Joyce, I do not like that look. REMEMBER ALL THE PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT SAY YOU SHOULDN’T BE A JERK. THOOOSE PAAARTS.
Something her parents would do well to remember. Just because Joyce is an atheist, doesn’t mean that they can conveniently forget that they are supposed to be nice to her ANYWAYS.
Oops, wrong name.
/facepalm
No need to look that far. Honoring your parents is actually right up in the Ten Commandments.
Yet weirdly enough there is nothing to tell parents to be good to their kids, except maybe for the parable of the prodigal son which is questionable at best towards the good kid who wasn’t a wayward asshole.
The commentary I was taught included it.
“Children, honor your parents, and parents, give your children no reason to dishonor you.”
The commentary I was taught says you put that shit into the actual rules if you give a shit about it for real, and they unsurprisingly didn’t
Oh, they care a LOT.
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.”
Who wants to go for 1000 comments this time? (Probably not me, sorry…)
Challenge accepted!
The Moral Foundation comic has finally reached 1,000 comments.
Whoo!
If I didn’t know that this was supposed to be a realistic universe, I’d say that they were trying to cast a spell.
They wanted her to join Hufflepuff not Slytherin.
Yer a wizard, Joyce!
“She’s a witch!” “Burn her!”
Only if she weighs the same as a duck.
She turned me into a newt!
I got better….
I knight thee Sir Rex Hondo of Dumbalot!
“If I didn’t know that this was supposed to be a realistic universe, I’d say that they were trying to cast a spell.”
They are. They’re summoning a spirit for posession/mind control purposes.
This being a realistic universe it won’t actually happen, but that’s what they’re trying to do here.
I wonder how they function in the real world?
Taco Bell or McDonalds….Tacos or McNuggets.
God, help me decide.
FIFTY. MCNUGGETS.
Well, that’s settled! McDonalds it is!
Or, we put the McNuggets into the Tacos.
Truly a creation worthy of God
Needs more Cowbell
“Go to Chick-Fil-Eeeeetttt obviousssllllyyyyyy”
“But Lord God it’s Sundaaaay so it’s clooooossed”
“Then what the fuck are you doing out the hooooooouuuuuuuse”
You’d be surprised how accepting people are of white-bred people wearing sweater vests and joinng in prayer circles.
No one can resist a sweater vest.
I actually wanna try wearing sweater vests at some point, when I’m in better shape.
White-bred, or White-bread? These things have very different meanings.
There’s no reason you can’t be both.
That is indeed a thing that makes sense. You in this time my friend.
White-bred on white bread?
Gross! That was made for eating! Not that– BLASPHEMY you’re doing!
Wait, isn’t placing the hand on the head is indicative of blessing or exorcism, not prayer?e
Or are they suggesting that Dorothy is possessing Joyce? And just wait till they meet Ethan.
They’re trying to seal Joyce’s soul in her body cos as everybody knows, atheists, like gingers have no souls and as such, they will want to drain Joyce’s like a HP dementor. 😛
Unfortunately, chocolate doesn’t seem to work on atheists.
Speak for yourself! Om nom nom.
See? Even just mention chocolate and they start swarming around.
Well, it works on the lactose-intolerant ones…
Judging from Dorothy (an admittedly very limited sample size), they do seem to be fairly fond of caramel.
Actually, the Browns are secretly androids built by Jesus after his resurrection to await the second coming. Their hands act as a direct line to the Big Guy, kinda like Inspector Gadget’s hand-phone, except using telepathy instead of sound which is why they don’t put their hands on her ears.
Maybe Joyce hears from her scalp?
Nah, a lot of evangelical Christians do it, especially when they’re praying for healing, guidance, or blessing.
Reminds me of the cleric’s Touch spells in D&D, actually. “Bless! “Protection from Evil!”
I’m pretty sure “Bless” is a burst, not a touch spell. It would be really inconvenient otherwise.
I will be glad when the story arc involving Joyce’s parents is over. I’ve really enjoyed almost all of this comic, but Ethan and Joyce’s parents just piss me off. (Hey there’s another thing they have in common, shitty parents. Maybe it IS meant to be after all.)
good point and as a matter of fact do you think Joyce’s parents will be for or against Joyce trying to lead a gay man back to the “straight and narrow” and will his parents agree. And what happens when they find out he’s Jewish?
The being Jewish part will probably be worse than the being gay part, in their opinion.
Depends entirely on what Christian sect they’re a part of. I was raised Baptist, and the Jews were always considered God’s Chosen People. … when they got talked about, anyway, which wasn’t often.
I’m actually really enjoying this well-written depiction of a couple of pairs of closed-minded dickheads
I will enjoy it when this section is over as well. I’d rather leave some memories behind…
“This is god, your phone call is very important to me…..”
“Now please hold indefinitely while we find an operator to patch you through”
“Jesus loves me that I know, For the bible tells me so. *our lines are tied up at the moment, please wait for someone to answer your call* yeeeeeess jesus loves me. Yes jesus loves me.
Aw, man. I was hoping for a rousing chorus of “God is bigger than the boogeyman”.
“Our God is an awesome god, He reigns, from Heaven above”
Our god’s cooler than yours.
Mine has his own Cooling System!
My god doesn’t even have stats, so he can’t be beaten!
My God has 8 seats and cup holders!
My god is the Everlasting Sky. Your god, *hmph* is beneath him.
But are they BUCKET seats??
“Stick shifts and safety belts, bucket seats have all got to go, when we’re driving in the car, it makes my baby seem so far. I need you here with me, not way over in a bucket seat; I need you to be here with me, not way over in a bucket seat.”
How great is our God, How great is our God
I think you need to knooow
oh my god i just choked on my tea and now have that song STUCK IN MY HEAD, thanks a lot
http://www.theonion.com/articles/christ-announces-hiring-of-associate-christ,571/
“This is God. STOP CALLING ME AND MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN DECISION, YOU TWITS! I GAVE YOU FOLKS BRAINS AND HIGHER CAPACITY OF THINKING, FOR ME SAKE!
…are there parents that actually do this?
I feel sad that you didn’t know.
There are parents who’ve beaten kids to death with rubber hoses because they thought it was God’s will and that doing so would “purify” them. This is nothing compared to some whackjobs out there!
Mine did.
It took me a few seconds to realize that this comment was not nested as a response to Totz the Plaid, and was totally relieved when I did.
Are you sure? I could be commenting from beyond the grave!
Which would totally have a bunch of atheists eating crow right now, if it were true and we could prove it. 😛
Maybe the existence of ghosts is just evidence against theism. I mean, if there’s a heaven, why aren’t they there?
😛
Whether in heaven or wandering the Earth, the verified existence of ghosts would certainly put a crimp in the blanket denial of anything supernatural to which many (at least many of the most vocal) atheists subscribe, you must admit. 😉
Admittedly I don’t believe in ghosts either (except for Casper, of whom we have decent film footage), but yeah, just having ghosts be real doesn’t imply that god (or God, or Thor, or Kali) exists too. Just because Santa Claus is real doesn’t mean wendigos are.
Then again, people who believe in one crazy theory tend to believe in others.
Panel 3 made me fear it was a vision of Faz’s family.
Faz’s family has a wierder ritual
“Alright, everyone pull out a porno and sit in the wanking circle. A family that Faps Together, stays together”
…and people say “Darn you” to Willis?! Someone get me some brain bleach, stat!
It’s cute how you PG-13’d the community’s iconic catch phrase, there.
There is no porno, only mirrors. For the Faz family loves looking at itself ALL. DAY. LONG.
They’re actually projector screens. For charts.
As you can see from this chart, Faz has grown 2.4 mm since last family gathering
-Well Fazzette’s bust has become a Booming C-cup. Fazzette will try to increase this size in time.
It’s creepy how controlling this looks, because they have their hands on her, they are the ones talking, and she’s just passively standing there while they talk to God for her and tell her what to do. 🙁
IT’S LIKE MIND CONTROL AGAHAGAAHHHHH.
It’s called manipulation and abuse.
Pretty much. I swear, it’s freaking cultish indoctrination, the only reason fundie Christians aren’t called a cult unless they’re as OUT THERE as Westboro Baptist is because it’s so widely accepted.
As they say, the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of members.
Joyce’s parents are, in essence, Mastermind.
Or maybe they’re Master Mold, and this is just how they reboot a faulty unit.
But that guy has at least a snazzy mustache (if you mean the X-Men villain).
Also, somewhere in this room her brother is watching and going, “Wow, somehow I didn’t realize how ridiculous we look when we do that. Let’s not ever do this again.”
YEAAAAAAH. The best prayers ARE passive aggressive, as I figured out when I almost started a coup against my health teacher in my fundie high school (long story). I agreed to apologize in front of the class, and I did…although it took every ounce of self-control to go through with it and not punch her out in the middle of the prayer she did beforehand.
Very few things tick me off more than prayer as a form of judgment and gossip.
‘I am making the right decision, you’re just too much of a doodie head to realize that.’
That’s not me, that’s god talking.
“THAT IS WHY AH DO THE VOICE.”
This begins Phase 2 of Joyce’s conversion to Atheism.
Thank God for Atheism!
+1, have all the Internets!
Never happen. Conversion to a somewhat more mellow congregation, however…
“Never happen.”
you know she’s based on Willis, right?
You have a point there. It always amazes me how much our boy Willis has changed from Roomies! to now. I’m personally of the opinion that he ate some fruit off the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
It occurs to me that a religion that vilifies knowledge and glorifies ignorance *RIGHT IN ITS CREATION STORY* probably has some core issues.
Yeah, but I think Willis wants to leave her as a Christian to keep the cast more diverse and make her character arc more unique. How does Joyce keep her faith after all this and become more mellow and open-minded?
Well, over the course of this comic Joyce has already become more open minded than she was before she came to college (she’s okay with Dorothy’s atheism, allowed herself to geek out over a cartoon, and has found out that gays are people too), so Joyce might just keep going down that road for now.
… It’s Joyce. She’s the sweet Christian girl. It’s her primary archetype. I don’t see him changing it.
Actually, leaving aside that she’s based on Willis, you realize there have been -plenty- of people that were as-if-not-more religious when compared to Joyce that are now prominent activists in the atheist community?
Also plenty – if less visible – people who are religious, but nonjudgemental. They just don’t get any publicity, by their very nature. I would have put myself in this category for most of my life. (Have left the church, but do not consider myself a dedicated atheist)
Probably past when you’ll see this, but what the hell. I fully recognize that (most of my family is that way) But I was specifically replying to a comment saying Joyce would -never- end up an atheist, the implication being that she is too fervent a believer, so that’s the claim my post was after.
Heavenly Father, we just come before you in prayer, and we just ask that we can just take our hands off of this person after a little while because we just don’t like touching people this much. And we just pray this in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Sounds not unlike me as a child in Church. “Peace be with you, but please don’t touch me because you have sweaty old man hands and you’ve been coughing a lot.”
It could be worse. There are those prayers where everybody holds hands, and then, once the prayer is over, everybody squeezes each other’s hands as a way of saying, “Let go of me oh god let go of me.”
Ugh, man, the round robin prayers were the worst. Just when you think it’s over and you can get yourself out of the horrible, back-aching position you just put yourself in so you can get a hand on the person’s shoulder through everyone else’s arms, someone else starts a 5 minute prayer that says exactly the same thing as the person before them. And your hands get all sweaty and you stop focusing on the prayer and start focusing on how you never want to be around for someone moving away and leaving your youth group or small group ever ever again.
Actually, I’ll bet that Joyce will make this decision despite what her parents are trying to pull. If she’s paying attention, she might well realize that her parents are intentionally trying to play mind games with her – shaping their prayer to make her feel guilty rather than making an honest prayer for guidance.
I think she does realize that already.
She does look peeved at them in the fourth panel.
I’m just worried that expression might be guilt, and the brainwashing is working…
“What fellowship has light with darkness?”
And that’s why Jesus gave the prostitutes and tax collectors the bird.
That’s why Jesus had the snazziest outfits in all of Jerusalem: he knew how to sort his damn laundry.
VZG, I bequeath unto you an Internet for making my drink come out my nose. XD
I shall hold it dear to my heart and I promise to only occasionally use it for porn.
And then VZG was not seen again for seven months.
He gave the tax collectors the bird. As Joyce pointed out, the prostitutes were chill.
Jesus knows it’s hard enough out there for a prostitute without people making them feel bad about it.
As I recall, he was fine with tax collectors. “Render unto Caesar,” etc…
It was the moneylenders in the temple that made him flip his shit.
One of his disciples was a former tax collector, as I recall…
Thankfully the correction strengthens the point. Joyce’s parents are bad at getting Jesus.
Yeah, he was cool with sinners. It was the corrupt religious folks that really got his dander up.
For reference, Hank is paraphrasing II Corinthians 6:14. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” (King James Version) It’s part of a passage a number of scholars believe was inserted into Paul’s text (or maybe Paul was quoting an earlier work not his own) because the “believer/unbeliever light/darkness righteousness/unrighteousness” dichotomy in it (along with certain other terms in the passage, like “Belial” for Satan) that is more characteristic of highly dualistic groups like the Dead Sea Sect.
That said, it clearly fits Hank’s and Carol’s ideology to a tee. Sadly.
(‘Being righteous even unto the unrighteous’: Pretty important, if you want to be able to look at yourself in a mirror without flinching.)
Using their first names breeds familiarity. We want to avoid that.
And then Sarah comes in five hours later and this is still going on and she leaves.
Or, Sarah comes in, takes their prayer about “light and darkness” totally out of context and breaks out the bat.
Actually, that would be a pretty awesome development. Not the bat I mean, but Sarah walking in mid-“darkness” line.
(BTW, the only darkness in that room is spewing off that old asshole’s mouth.)
I Cant wait till joyce is floating in mid air on her back yelling random bullshit.
As someone raised non-religiously, and is completely ignorant on ANYTHING regarding christianity, this seemed very culty. O_o. Is that an actual thing? I mean, I assume it is, since I doubt Willis would just make it up for no reason, but…damn.
Have you read the Bible? It gets a lot more cultastic than this in there.
No I have not.
Well, let’s say that David dances enraptured in a loincloth before the procession carrying the Ark of the Covenant. Would that make you?
And here I was thinking that pagans were the only ones doing the naked dancing thing. Live and learn, I suppose.
Well I’ve certainly been missing out. I’ve read Genesis, Exodus, and partway through Leviticus, but the craziest things I’ve seen were when Jacob acts like a total dick to his brother Esau, and when God smites some person for pulling out right before the money shot.
Slaughtering all of the firstborns not crazy enough for you?
Well, the craziest things God and the Hebrews (wow that sounds like a band name) have done. There’s probably more that I’ve skimmed over. I tend to skim a lot with books like this.
Oh wait, you’re talking about Passover, my bad. That is damning, but then again the Egyptians had killed the firstborn sons of the Hebrews, so it could be seen as karma. It certainly isn’t anything I’d commend today, but revenge was pretty important back then.
Oh, man, you should. It’s hilarious.
I’m forced to assume it happens a few times, but luckily it’s never been done with me (my mom was pretty religious, but didn’t even care whether I went to church or not so long as I promised to stay Catholic).
I doubt it is but since a i am not religious and my parents raised my catholic i wouldnt know.
Pretty sure this kind of parenting and behavior is out there. I’m very ignorant to religion itself as I chose to stay away from that subject, but I have seen and overheard parents using God and religion as a guilt tool to use against their kids, it’s pretty uncomfortable to see.
Yeah, is a real thing, and not only on the States.
The closest I’ve heard of (granted, I don’t know many fundamentalists) is my grandma had a ‘laying on of hands’ which from my understanding is a pastor saying a prayer while putting his hands on your head and possibly sprinkling with oil to help healing, which includes healing ‘spiritual challenges’.
It’s a real thing and it’s a lot more common than people think. Quick way to identify them: pretty much any church with “Good Word/Shepherd/News,” “Glorious,” “Way,” “Apostolic,” “Faith,” “Bible,” “Gospel,” “Pentecostal,” “Baptist,” “Victory,” “Fundamental/ist,” (bonus points for more than one of those in their name) churches are going to be like this. Science is of the devil, sent to deceive the faithful. Dinosaur bones were put in the earth to test the faithful. The earth was created “old” – it’s only 9,000 years old but God made it to look much older, to test the faithful. … You get the idea. Anything that doesn’t fit their interpretation of the bible is sent by the devil to test/deceive the faithful. It’s pretty awful to grow up in that environment, once you see the real world and realize how incredibly narrow your upbringing was. Joyce has acclimated much better than many sheltered, brainwashed fledgling fundies I’ve seen.
There is nothing wrong with “the Earth was created old” as a belief: a story may be new and tell a tale of a billion years. The Earth could have been created five minutes ago and you would not know the difference.
But the point is that it does tell a story of billions of years, and with such a perfect storyteller, we would be fools not to listen.
I felt the same way about Bioshock
Heretic! Only 6000 years! (4004 BC.)
Baptist churches tend to be more reserved and conservative in worship; this is somewhere between Baptist (tame) and Pentecostal (batshit). Some Baptist churches are actually very progressive compared to most. One here in Charlotte was actually booted from the Southern Baptist Convention for performing civil union ceremonies. This was shortly before the Southern Baptist Convention withdrew from the Baptist World Alliance for not being homophobic and misogynistic enough.
You’re trippin’ right?
My church lays hands on people to pray and we most certainly do not believe science is of the devil or anything that goes along with that :/
It’s just like everything else in the world. A very vocal minority makes everyone else look bad. There are plenty of awesome and tolerant people of every religion and race.
Are you referring to the act of prayer? Or praying with someone’s hands on her head? Prayer is a very common thing in the U.S. among protestant Christians. It’s such a part of the culture that I am surprised if you are unfamiliar with it, in the U.S. it’s on T.V. , in films, and books. Most of the time people pray with their eyes closed and their hands folded, or sometimes with their hands joined together or on top of someone being prayed for, as they did here. You can pray alone or with others.
If you are referring to how they just won’t back down on being judgmental of Dorothy, that is them being bad people who judge others outside the church. I wish I could say that is highly uncommon, but it isn’t. However, I can say that the Christianity I grew up in condemns this kind of thing. Your not supposed to marry non believers, but being friends is fine. I wonder why they didn’t just send her to Christian college, after all they have to know Joyce has instructors that are not Christian.
I was referring to the “hands on head” and the praying for someone in such a way. Praying in media is very much a private thing, or at least, a mass thing in a sorta private way, but never like this, which seems oddly culty compared to the way it’s normally depicted.
But, here’s the thing, it is a private thing here. We’re watching only members of a family praying together. The passive-aggressive part is from her father’s snide choice of words, but otherwise it doesn’t seem that strange to me.
I honestly bet his character is not one to do this all the time, just an overreaction based on his worries about sending his youngest off to a secular college. Not to be condoned, but probably seeing him on his worst day rather than the norm.
This type of treatment and P-A prayer/parenting/etc are a LOT more common than you’d think – there are a lot of really fundie churches that don’t SEEM fundie on the surface, and a lot of fundie Christians who don’t seem fundie on the surface.
NO ONE I think would meet my parents without hearing about them from me and believe they’re super fundamentalist Christians and did this sort of thing with me from a very young age (the prayer-as-PA-guilt thing, the laying on hands thing, the “let’s take it to god” thing) because they’re very friendly, welcoming (on the surface) people. But if you’re not a Christian? Trust me, their only goal with you is to BRING YOU TO G-D, HALLELUJAH.
It’s way. Way. WAY more common than a lot of casual/liberal Christians and non-Christians realize, I think.
That’s just scary and fucked up. I’m sorry, it’s really psychologically traumatising. Not the act itself, but the passive-aggressive guilt-tripping phrasing. Sounds like a good way to bring up some really fucked up kids.
It reaaaaaally really is. I’ve been out of my parents’ house (and subsequently the church and all that) for about 8 years now and I’ve still got a lot of issues that stem from the shit my parents and pastors did and said when I was growing up.
I’m glad that you’re slowly overcoming all that bull, Mat. Hang in there, it will get better!
as the fucked up kid of very fundamentalist parents, I would have to agree with you. It gets even better when you add being gay and/or trans* into the mix
I’ve a trans friend from that background. 🙁
And of course we aren’t allowed to say that. Finding something is odd is the same as hate, as I failed to retain the last time this was discussed. Please teach me to less awful…I’m just so bad.
As a queer trans person, I can definitely concur with this. -_-
Yeah, this definitely happens. I was raised with it, so it only seems mildly manipulative to me, not incredibly cultish. For the most part, prayer circles comfort me a great deal, especially if I know that the people praying know me well and have my best interests at heart.
Joyce’s dad, though, I want to punch in the face and scream at.
As an atheist who lives in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, this arc has been bloody disturbing. I haven’t been this uncomfortable reading a comic for a while.
Then Willis has done his job.
Doesn’t make you want to visit, does it?
Poor Joyce.
Same here. I knew this sort of thing wasn’t uncommon, and I knew Willis had grown up with this so I expected something of the sort, but I didn’t expect it to be so uncomfortable to read. It takes me back to the time I went along to my fundie friend’s youth club as a kid, and had to listen to a talk by a complete nutcase, which everyone else took seriously. What could I say? Why are you listening to such manipulative bullshit? Ugh!
I guess what makes it uncomfortable for me is that I never had experience with this kind of people, so this comic making it feel more real is very very scary. Coupled with the fact that the religious right making a push overseas is even more terrifying.
I’m a new commenter, and I wanted to say that this arc is wonderful. Keep it up, David!
When in doubt I too seek the guidance of the deity in this case the great old one Cthulhu
Of course I always botch my sanity check when he responds I don’t remember what I asked for guidance on in the first place.
ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn
Ah, a Cthulhuist! Always jolly people. I’m a Pastafarian myself; whenever I’m confused about anything I just call out to His Noodly Appendage to send me on the right path.
May His Noodle touch you and yours, brothers and sisters.
And may the green slimy noodles of Cthulhu guide our brother Mechaqua to the true path.
Ia Ia. Cthulhu Fhtagn.
I wouldn’t have thought nondenominational Christians could be quite so ritualistic.
What even made them decide that this is a thing they sometimes do?
Oh, but it’s not a ritual, it’s just the laying on hands to bring the Holy Spirit to the person you’re praying over. A ritual would mean that they’re some sort of pagan or catholic.
Yes, my churches growing up, all of the six or seven I went to through my childhood and teen years, would do stuff like this, but then claim that we had no rituals or something. it was super fucked up.
In some of the local nondenoms, the laying on of hands is Kind of a Big Deal. Annoyingly so. “Might I say a prayer for your new baby?” “I…suppose?” *SWEATY UNWASHED HANDS TO EVERYONE’S FOREHEADS AAAUUUUGH*
Even when the person doing it is basically sweet, I still find it creepy. It’s more annoying when some young buck suppressing his worldly desires takes on his church’s message as his ONLY METHOD OF RELEASE. Oh yeah….he’ll pray for you soooooo hard, with lots of passion…for Jesus. All up in The Word!
For the record, I’m an Agnostic Episcopalian. Then again, for anyone who knows any Episcopalians, the agnostic part is rather redundant.
I grew up going to a non-denominational church (this one) and laying on of hands was a big big thing. You had to have people to it to complete catechism. My family was huge on the passive-aggressive stuff and the not being able to watch cartoons for weird reasons too. I wasn’t homeschooled, thankfully, though I did spend some time going to a Christian school. Some of my homeschooled church friends were horrified when I talked about playing RPGs.
I don’t think that this is the norm, exactly – I know when I visited friends churches they were much more laid back than mine – but there’s definitely a lot of this out there.
I just…I hope this resolves itself okay. Joyce is my favorite character because I love the way that while she’s kind of naïve she is ultimately well-rounded and not presented as being critical or dismissive of religious people. I know that a lot of Joyce’s character arc is based on personal experiences, but I’m actually really hopeful that she doesn’t eventually entirely abandon her faith. There really aren’t many religious characters in media who are presented as being rational and normal and Joyce actually comes really close to that despite her occasional weirdness. Also from personal experience I can say losing your lifelong faith is really traumatic and I just don’t want my girl Joyce to have to go through any trauma.
You don’t go from alcoholic to occasional drinker.
But if you try to surface too quickly from too deep you’ll get the bends.
And yet, by secular logic, drinking in moderation is okay. I think that’s what Wilkie is hoping for, not total abandonment but toning it down to reasonable levels.
But then again, in all honesty, comparing religion to alcoholism is simply not a good comparison, because they’re quite different beasties. Alcoholism, regardless of what you’re actually drinking, has essentially the same harmful effects, different mostly in magnitude; whereas the potential harm from overzealous religions are as varied as religion itself is. And similarly, the solutions for overzealous religion are as varied as religion itself is.
I actually don’t think Joyce is an “alcoholic” in the terms of the analogy you’re presenting. Heavy drinker, sure, but she doesn’t seem to need every aspect of her life to be all about her religious indoctrination like some people.
Does anyone remember the Animaniacs episode where the Warner brothers and sister went to hell and screwed with the devil? Cause I really think Joyce should watch it.
my mom warned me about that episode
I bet you werent allowed to watch south park.
Don’t be silly. Willis is too old to have grown up watching South Park.
But the Smurfs deriving power from Beelzebub? He’d be right in that bracket. I know I was.
The Smurfs is a Nazi propaganda cartoon. Gargamel is the evil “ewige Jude.”
I could’ve sworn the Smurfs were communists.
*shrug* The Nazis were socialists.
Only according to them, though.
*twitch* Not sure if e- is joking or not…
Just got Poe’d.
Not everyone knows that “National Socialism” is/was a lie.
You just jumped a thousand yards past the relevant point. A better question is if Willis could watch Simpsons. I know I couldn’t.
Hell, I couldn’t, and I was raised in an atheistic household.
Ditto, only replace “atheistic” with “nonreligious”. The same was true of SpongeBob, Family Guy and South Park, among other things. I grew up being told they were stupid, and between commercials and occasional snippets I’ve seen of some of them, I’ve only found support for that opinion.
…reminds me of the time I was upset at the post office because my little sister had H1N1. A woman very kindly asked what was wrong, so I told her my sister was hospitalized. She asked if she could pray for me. I’m agnostic, but it seemed like a nice gesture, and thinking she meant when she went to bed that night or something, I said sure.
…and then she grabbed my neck, forced my head down, and prayed right there in the post office. I tried to pull away and she said no. It was surprising and scary for me.
Okay, that’s just not right.
Wow, that’s just…
Wow
What the shit.
PRAY WITH ME, bongo!
LAUGHING SO HARD.
It reminds me of my creepiest prayer experience– when I was waiting tables I worked with this crazy fundie-ish woman, who, when she got pissed off at someone or got a bad tip, would say “I will pray for them, that they get EVERYTHING THEY DESERVE.” She would say this is the most menacing creepy way you can even imagine in your head. I even got the freaky hate-prayer from her one day because she thought I had taken one of her tables out of turn.
Now, if life was a sitcom, we’d Gilligan Cut to the people in question getting literally everything one could want out of life. XD
Oh, man, I will tell you right now she WOULD LET GO, or we would be talking about how I pressed charges and got her fired. That is so not within acceptable bounds.
(Ah, wait, I assumed this was an employee, but I just realized that isn’t necessarily the case. So possibly never mind that part)
But you would still presumably threaten to press charges.
Absolutely. You don’t grab somebody without explicit permission, and what that lady thinks “pray for me” means is far from universal.
I’d be irked, but it’s not really about the personal indignation as it is about the fact that behavior like that needs to be clearly delineated at NOT OKAY.
Oh, Joyce’s parents, you don’t realise it but you’ve pushed Joyce further away from your desires by trying to reel her back in. Now she’s seen exactly how people must see her and exactly why Walky things she’s hella brainwashed.
Joyce? Just roll your eyes and tune them out until they leave and go back to living your life.
^ This. I don’t think Joyce’s parents are being abusive, per se. They’re doing what they believe — and 4 weeks ago, Joyce would have been into praying away her temptations, too. But she is beginning to think for herself and to determine how she wants to shape and practice her religious beliefs/moral codes (which is what college is for, dammit!), so she is suffering MAJOR cognitive dissonance in realizing that the minute she was given enough exposure to other ways of thinking to understand that everything doesn’t boil down to Good Or Evil, her own thinking got more complicated and nuanced. It’s a wonder she hasn’t turned purple.
Just because it’s “what they believe” and Joyce would’ve gone along with it gladly a month ago doesn’t mean it’s not abusive.
Trust me, the sorts of people who practice Christianity the way Joyce’s family does tend to engage in a lot of little subtle abuses that can stack up to really fuck you up if you’re not careful.
(source: personal experience, and the fact that I KNOW my friends at church were raised the same way I was)
I’m drawing on my own experience, too. I wasn’t “fucked up” by my parents just because they believed differently than me and expressed concern that, from their standpoint, I would be better off trusting in God. It was awkward at times, and I did feel bad about letting them down, but it wasn’t abusive. Yes, parents *can* be abusive when they’re only acting on their beliefs, but this isn’t one of those cases, in my opinion.
Ehhhh, I’d say it’s borderline, honestly. They’re being extremely emotionally manipulative with this stuff, with the intent on getting her back “under control” basically, even if they don’t phrase it or even SEE it that way. And emotional manipulation so you can control what a person thinks and believes is abuse.
There’s a difference between “expressing concern” and “passive-aggressively trying to guilt trip you into agreeing with us again for your own good”. That might just be a lot of bad associations with situations and conversations like this on my part, but that’s how I see it.
“I’m drawing on my own experience, too.”
No, you’re drawing on your desire to ignore the experiences of others
Our opinions differ. I have a friend whose parents use exactly these sorts of tactics to aggressively belittle her sexuality. They have stunted her self esteem, and are constantly finding new ways to emotionally blackmail her. The Brown’s aren’t quite -there- yet, but they are on some exceptionally thin freaking ice.
I wouldn’t say my nephs were “fucked up” by being raised like Joyce. I will say they were “fucked over” since two of them had learning disabilities that went undiagnosed until High School, and the fact that my sister couldn’t teach worth shit.
And then Sarah walks in.
And then Sarah walks out.
And then Sarah shakes it all about.
http://sadpanda.us/images/1781588-6J5RRLA.png
Thank you, Yotomoe, you made my day happiness!
And that’s what it’s all about.
Like a polaroid picture…
I guess “it” means her butt…not that I’m complaining.
These are the people who told Jesus to stop spending time with “sinners.”
Not trying to offend anyone but the only reason id ever read the bible assuming some day i do it’ll be to see if it has some fun stories in it not cause id take anything seriously. Thats just me i mean i read mythology and at somepoint in time it was a religion yet if attempted to prove it real everyone would laugh at me so yeah.Just saying thats why im not religious.
And then Joyce reveals that she has received God’s guidance… by asking who she needs to talk to to bring Enterprise back.
+1
Welp, if Willis himself approves a comment, you know you’ve done something right. Keep up the good work, Alexander!
Wow, the Willis seal of approval, you are golden my friend.
I’m sorry, I can’t help myself:
What does God need with a starship?
I’m not sure if I’m more disappointed with not getting the reference sooner, or that I eventually did get it?
That part of the movie redeems it for me.
Can’t help yourself? Or did the Devil make you do it…
Clearly, she lacks a moral foundation.
Also, when’s the next bus?
As a non-jewish, non-fleshling, I think I find this more offensive than than the last strip.
But then, Primus doesn’t really care if you believe in him or not.
Yes, well, Primus is your planet, so you guys don’t have to touch each other because if you’re on the ground you’re already touching God.
It’s easy to be indifferent to others when you’re a giant planet.
Dictating the proper course of action to God. Niiice and humble.
Now of course, as we learned yesterday in the discussion, Hitler was a good Christian, and all good Christians are like Hitler, so this should be no surprise.
ALL CHRISTIANS.
Well that isnt entirely true but it shouldnt matter as long as you believe in the magic of rainbows and horned firebreathing pegasus.
Nobody said that.
Somebody did.
Somebody also said “Nobody” and “said.”
Everybody blamed Somebody because Nobody did what Anybody could have done in the first place.
Great, now it looks like I’m making that eagle uncomfortable.
Can’t tell if sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. I’ve been waiting for someone to use a -body since I first saw the name.
I didn’t think my respect for her dad could get any lower, but he did it. It was already at zero, but he somehow made it go negative with that condescending prayer. I was fine up until the end, but…he he just HAD to call Dorothy evil. So did Mary, but at least she was more honest about it.
“For what fellowship has light with darkness?” sounds like a saying they probably used back when interracial marriages with still illegal.
were**
When you talk to God, it’s called prayer but when God talks to you, it’s called schizophrenia.
Oh, hey there Widely Spread Quotation. I hardly recognised you.
What’s the point of old chestnuts if not to drag them out occassionly.
You shouldn’t let them get old in the first place. You should roast them and eat them.
I almost got a guy to think he had a religious vision earlier today.
Schizophrenia isn’t multiple personality disorder.
Multiple personality disorder doesn’t make you hear voices. Schizophrenia does.
I thought the joke was about God being a second personality.
How about “God is love, love is blind, I am blind, therefore I am God.”
I think it sort of fits with Joyce’s parents.
And Joshua is in the backround mentally screaming “I can see! Thank You God! I can see!!”
And then he walks into a wall.
“Wait, no, I need glasses again.”
Light has a hell of a fellowship with darkness in the Bible. The only people who knew Jesus was Jesus and actually believed in what he did were demons, a Roman legionnaire, two criminals, and a Samaritan woman.
Everybody in the comments is commenting as if this is how EVERY religious person, nay, Christian, acts and thinks.
Thats true but i think most of us (hopefuly) know that isnt true.
I doubt everyone is. This is, sadly, how a LOT of practicing Christians think and act, though. And by “practicing Christians”, I mean people who go to church every week without fail, not people who consider themselves Christians (whether they are or not is not my place to say) but only go to church once in a while, which is actually what I believe a majority of Christians in America are.
Though it’s hard not to lash out at all christians when you had to deal with stuff like this and other more obviously emotionally abusive/manipulative stuff growing up, which I”m sure at least some of us did.
Amen! I hate the way that every single commenter is making sweeping generalizations.
You’re giving me an irony-boner.
Even better when you realize that half the comments aren’t. Half the ones above this one.
Regardless of individual Christians, the fact is that Joyce’s parents have the Bible supporting their stance.
There are tons of Christians that are great people, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Bible, the cornerstone of their dogma and belief, is full of hateful and disturbing messages.
How about “Love your neighbor as yourself?” How about “Love is patient, love is kind?” It’s easy to say the Bible is full of hateful messages without an understanding of the context in which a lot of passages were written. Going through it myself, I haven’t found anything terribly hateful besides the way people decide to interpret it to serve their own prejudices.
There’s little room for interpretation of passages about annihilating rival cities. You can find good messages, but “context” doesn’t always work as a defense.
Certainly not when it comes to genocide, misogyny, and racism.”But context!” is never an excuse for these things, even more so when it’s all backed by a supposedly all-powerful and benevolent god.
An all powerful God who hates people. In the Old Testament He actively made war against everyone except the Hebrews and Gentiles who worshipped Him, and even then He was sporadic at best in the help He gave. At least He mellowed out in the New Testament.
Yes, but most Christians seem to find omnibenevolence integral to their concept of God.
If by “everybody” you mean “perhaps a few”.
No they aren’t…
I’m not even mad anymore. Just…I lost so much respect for them that I don’t care.
Gotta give you props for getting that family pitch-perfect. I grew up in a variation of this family. If the passive-aggressive prayer doesn’t work, they’ll just wedge in a bit about “fools” who won’t listen to wisdom, a la one of the Psalms. Win-win!
Joyce would totally hate monster hunter since the game has no real creatures aside from the felynes and humans nor do they have a god.
Joyce would probably love Monster Hunter until her parents found out about it and manipulated her into hating it by quoting relevant scripture and making such pleas to God through prayer.
Well I’ve apparently fallen so far outside of the demographic for this comic that I’ll probably have to start back with “peanuts” or “the family circle” before I can work my way back. I read this comic because I enjoyed the humor and because I have two college age daughters. I would point out the you folks have had roughly eight panels to get to know these fictional characters. I’d be a little more impressed with all the “durr hrr hrr” going on if any one of you could lose the Jesus hate and maybe focus on a different context. Mainly, two parents who have sent their daughter to college and are concerned that all the values they’ve tried to teach her are going to go into the toilet. Considering that Joyce is a freshman, they’ve just let go of their kid. Prayer is a way of directing a message. Was this one a little pointed? Yes. Heavy handed. Yes? And in a couple of days they have to go home and wonder if their kid is going to be okay. They had to have done some things right, yes? Joyce is obviously smart, curious and healthy. The fact that Joyce is hanging out with an atheist is a bit heavy for these folks. This is on par with dropping your teenage daughter off at college, and she comes home with three tattoo’s, a nose piercing, cigarette dangling from her lip and every other word is something obscene. A bit of advice. This is a pretty cool lesson. You don’t know how they got where they are, and you don’t know where they will end up. These folks are only trying to protect their kid. They haven’t learned to let go yet, and at some point they have to trust they did a good job and leave it in God’s hands. That is the HARDEST thing a parent has to do. So cut them some slack. Thus endeth the sermon, and thank you for your attention.
If it helps, you’re not alone in that realization. I definitely saw my own parents in these strips, even though my parents aren’t religious at all, because of that common thread of worrying and the fact that kids in college will inevitably rebel a tiny bit regardless. That being said, it still can be shocking to read 😛
I know the people who act like this in real life, and I know Willis has too. It makes me sick, it makes me rage, and it looks like many others feel the same way as I do. I have cut this adult- this archetype, this stereotype- all the slack in the world for my entire life. I have dealt with these people. And I think I have the right to denounce their kind of logic and child-rearing sense here in exacting terms with plenty of obscenities as they compare me to a mass-murdering megalomaniac, denounce their daughter’s choice in friends, and say the same stupid things that they always have and always will repeat until the end of their time- for the sake of my own sanity. Because I can’t talk like that in real life, to the real people who I know who act like this. That isn’t right.
Leave us to our comments. You really don’t have to scroll down.
And I don’t mean to attack you. This is just really volatile stuff. I’m sure most people here would agree with Jesus on most of his major points, it’s just that the people who have appointed themselves his spokespersons can be absolute gits…
Only eight panels? No. We’ve had the entire comic to see how their attitudes have affected Joyce’s worldview and almost a week of strips of them being intolerant jackasses in this storyline.
Your comparison is illogical. They were vile to Dorothy and even worse behind her back, and now they’re emotionally manipulating Joyce by attempting to shame her.
There is no justification that makes up for that sort of behavior. None whatsoever.
Even if they were raised that way, they could’ve chosen to look at the world instead of shutting themselves off in closed-minded hate.
I tried to play Devil’s Advocate for the Browns before, but, no. They’re nasty people.
Timeout: you want me to “cut them some slack” for telling their daughter she has to ditch her friends because they don’t conceptualize the universe the same way they do and using cultish intimidation and brainwashing because “Hey! Empty nest syndrome!”
Hell, no. Fuck, no. I think you can see where I’m going with this.
I think I can. I honestly didn’t think my comment was going to draw nearly this much ire, but I will say this. I have no idea what your relationship with your parents might have been, but, out of curiosity did your parents approve of every friend you had, right off the bat? This isn’t a criticism. This is merely a suggestion that people over react. I think everyone has heard a parent say “if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?” That an exaggeration. Of course mom and dad don’t think that, but some times in a moment of exasperation something pops out that’s basically ridiculous on some level. Me, I was suggesting that there was a different point of view to take than “Jeseus Bad!”. Thank you for your opinion and taking the time to read mine.
I can say quite confidently that any friends my parents ever disapproved of were based on the actions of the friend rather than the demographic.
I have a Mother like this.
And even when she is a Human being, she is also my Mother and we can’t just say “Yeah, there happened a lot of things to her” and pretend, that it is okay, what she is doing.
You can’t always hide behind the things that happened to you.
Sometimes you have to be responsible. And when you have a Child, you will always be responsible.
Because everytime you are not, you destroy a part of your kid. Not like abuse, but hard enough that you child can get a mental disorder.
Also, it’s even more wrong, when this people think, that Atheism is the same as being obscene and living unhealthy.
It’s not okay, just because they are filled with prejudices and they don’t know better, no, it makes it worse.
They are grown-ups. They are parents. And still they act like children, not mature enough, to believe in what they learned AND to accept people, that are different, because they are still too stubborn and too immature.
That’s a way to destroy a kid.
Just sayin’.
No. No I will not cut them some slack. Because my parents were exactly the same way with me growing up. I know intimately why and how Joyce thinks and acts the way she does and what her childhood was like because THAT WAS MY CHILDHOOD.
So no, I am not going to give her parents the benefit of the doubt or whatever it is you want me to give them, because this is like looking into a mirror for me and seeing all the abuse and manipulation I was subjected to from the time I was old enough to form my own opinion about things (so, when I was about 7).
And for the record? I don’t hate Jesus. Or Christians. In fact, I think Jesus himself had a lot of really good teachings, and the Christians who stay away from the more fundamentalist and hypocritical side of the religion are awesome people. The ones I know are deeply awesome people, and I respect both them and their faith. But these people? They use Jesus and the Bible to justify judging and hating certain kinds of people (queer people like Ethan, atheists like Dorothy, people of other religions), and if you think that believing “because you are gay/don’t worship the way I do/don’t believe what I believe, you’re going to hell” isn’t hate, then you have a really skewed view of what love and hate are.
I try not to get angry and emotional in comments with people I don’t even know, but this is a deeply emotional and traumatic part of my past. That’s the sort of place some of us are coming from – not just mindless hatred of an entire religion.
Whenever I read your comments I feel like we’re probably on the same page and have had the same experiences concerning this.
It seems likely. And that makes me really depressed because I would not wish this bullshit on ANYONE.
I’m truly sorry that hit a nerve with you. Your reaction is understandable. I’m also sorry that your relationship with your parents is how you described. That’s a truly hard and heavy thing to have to carry around. You’re last paragraph suggested you’re trying to get a handle on your reactions to this kind of thing and that’s truly healthy. I wish you the best.
Seriously, by the time they get to College age, IT’S TOO LATE! They’ve already heard everything you’ve got to say, and some of it they agree with, some of it they don’t. On the parts they don’t agree with, they’ve already heard all your arguments and they aren’t convinced. The only things that can change their minds are new people with new arguments, and direct experience. The only effect of harping on about the things they don’t agree with is to make them want to see you less often.
The reason Joyce’s parents are getting so much hate here is that not only do they not accept this, they will probably never accept it. They have a very rigid idea of who their daughter should be, and what sort of life she should have, and they’re prepared to be pretty underhand to try to enforce it. How long before they bring out the straight emotional blackmail? She still loves them: will they use that as a weapon against her?
I rode the train to manipulation town until I was in my 20s.
Joyce is not an adult. At least, not mentally, emotionally and socially. She is a stunted child whose parents (knowingly or unknowingly) put a low glass ceiling over her head with God-shaming.
She will continue to defer to her parents because, in her eyes, her parents carry the authority of God. We’re taught to obey our parents, even if they’re not 100% right, and that to go against them is to go against God.
Nobody wants that kind of stigma on them. Maturity is like a taproot, though, and will eventually find a way through. But she will be several years behind her peers in development and may end up completely casting off the religion in resent once she finally has a chance to see it all from above.
You may well be right. I have got the impression that Joyce hasn’t had it as bad as some: her pastor said she was “the best socialised out of her whole homeschool group” and her parents did allow her to go to IU rather than a Christian college like her best friend. I interpreted that as a signal that they think she is ready to survive on her own (without doing anything they wouldn’t approve of, or disagreeing with them in any way, of course).
No one is a mature adult at that age, but my point was that by then, children have learnt everything from their parents that they’re going to.
Exactly. I left the church at 19 (after a year of some REALLY sketchy shit on the part of my parents and pastor) and am still, at 27, trying to break away from the way my mother specifically tries to manipulate me.
Sometimes it works, and I recently had to declare that I would not be coming back to visit them in their home because I called my wife in the middle of a visit sobbing because my mother had basically managed to take my frustration and hurt and desire to be a good person in regards to things like race and turned it into how I’m a horrible hateful person who pushes people away by ALWAYS ARGUING WITH THEM ALWAYS OVER EVERYTHING and that’s why I don’t have friends and am unhappy (despite the fact that I have friends and am actually pretty content).
I’m almost 30 and she still has some control over my thoughts and emotions, despite my attempts to break away from it, she just uses it to tear me down much more obviously than she ever did when I was still “part of the church”. :/
“three tattoo’s, a nose piercing, cigarette dangling from her lip and every other word is something obscene” is equivalent to “Wants to have a friend that doesn’t share our religion and that we know literally nothing else about”? I suppose the “obscene” words would be “tolerance” in this scenario.
It’s so precious when one of the 4-1 majority goes all victim mentality with a “lose the Jesus hate” crack. And comparing friendship with a non-believer to addiction and carcinogens is just totes adorbs.
Totes. Adorbs.
It’s equally precious when someone manages to peg me as part of the “4-1 majority” whatever the heck that is, but my point was I could see their point of view as a PARENT who has kids in college. There’s a level of culture shock. From the Browns point of view it probably was as bad. I suggested a little compassion but apparently that’s not a concept you can grasp yet. Once could hope.
No, it isn’t equivalent. It isn’t justified to make such a comparison–even if some people believe so.
And they don’t show compassion for anyone else.
To get compassion they have to show compassion? I’m sorry but if you wait for that nobody get’s any mercy. Showing compassion when somebody’s wrong is very hard. Thank you for your opinion though.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Or to rearrange it, I’ll do to you what you do to others.
The burden is on the Christians (it’s their book after all), which I guess means I have to bite the bullet here.
Timeout, totally behind you one hundred percent.
I didn’t peg you as anything; you pegged yourself. Congratulations on being a PARENT (I CAN CAPS LOCK, TOO!) and all, but you finding it so easy to relate to these characters only makes me more thankful to have been raised by rational, accepting people who didn’t impose their own insecurities on children.
And yes, having a laugh at the victim mentality in your comments and the intolerant, nonsensical smoking analogy absolutely means I haven’t grasped the concept of compassion. Wow, you really got me there. Good show.
Kudos for speaking up, but I’ve seen the damage their kind of un-Christ-like attitude can have, both on someone’s own kids and on the bigger community. Jesus didn’t cloister himself with people who lived righteously, he met people where they were in life, whether beggars, whores, theives or worse, and showed them love and compassion. Jesus was definitely “in the world” in that way. So many people use the phrase, “in the world, not of it” as justification for insulating themselves against the “world” while totally ignoring the “in the world” part. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he didn’t just say “love the Lord your God with all your heart,” he also said “…and your neighbor as yourself.” Our neighbors aren’t limited just to those who share our beliefs, socioeconomic status, skin color, or lifestyle. Those who are well have no need of a physician.
I know a young man, raised by his grandparents, who was recently kicked out of the house, with nowhere to go, because one of his oldest childhood friends came out as transsexual. They had rather see him homeless than have the family name associated with something they disagreed with.
I’ve met many, many people in my travels who say they believe in God but won’t attend church because they have a friend or relative who wouldn’t feel welcome.
I have a brother-in-law who sends his kids to church with my parents, but doesn’t attend himself because he thinks people would judge him for his tatoos.
One of my ex-wife’s friends had planned to go to church with us once. I’m really glad she backed out, because the sermon that day was about the evils of homosexuality, and she has two moms. That was also the last day I ever attended that church.
Is this what Christ’s love is supposed to do to people?
No. That isn’t what Christ’s love is supposed to be about. I’m glad you can see that as well.
If you don’t think that Joyce’s parents’ behaviour these last few strips has been horrifying, despicable, abusive, ignorant and childish, then you have never ever ever been anywhere near the demographic of this comic.
And if you seriously think this has anything to do with “Jesus hate”, you are so enormously off-target, you didn’t even hit the right universe.
As a conservative Christian, I can’t cut them any slack because they’re wrong. While Willis and I don’t always agree on matters of faith these kinds of people do exist, people who follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of Jesus’s teachings. Joyce has actually been a pretty good girl while here. She’s fled from “youthful lusts” (granted her way of doing so is…a bit different), she’s tried to get her friends to at least give church a try (two of which she’s had at least some success with), and has stayed true to many of her principles.
My worry is that her parents have kept her unprepared for that guy at the party or..well, Billie to a point even if she isn’t a totally evil person. She treats everyone decently except for Walky but even then they do sort of get along. She’s kind hearted, sweet, and not afraid to not only speak her mind but listen to others even if she doesn’t agree with it even after they’re done. She has a few fault but I think her parents should be proud of her.
Now if Dorothy’s parents are as strict about their atheistic perspectives this could be an interesting friendship and a way for both Joyce and Dorothy to grow as people and characters, plus I think it would balance out the way Joyce’s parents are depicted. (And there are people on both sides that are way overboard in their views.)
I say let’s see how Joyce and Dorothy come out of this before throwing it away. I think Willis is being fair here. I would argue on certain Shortpacked strips, sorry Dave, but here he seems to be treating all perspectives well enough right now.
“Now if Dorothy’s parents are as strict about their atheistic perspectives this could be an interesting friendship and a way for both Joyce and Dorothy to grow as people and characters, plus I think it would balance out the way Joyce’s parents are depicted. (And there are people on both sides that are way overboard in their views.)”
It is a simple thing to find people who describe their parents like Joyce’s. While I don’t deny there are some zealous atheists out there, I have not heard of any atheist equivalents to Joyce’s parents, who use atheism to control, shame, and judge their kids. Making Dorothy’s parents into those types would not ring true, and would not square with what we already know of Dorothy as a character.
It would also require that their statement to the Browns that they let Dorothy decide for herself be a lie. The unreliable narrator has a place in fiction, but this isn’t a good spot for it.
The argument for “balance” is also specious because we see a very broad range of attitudes among Christians in this comic, but don’t have a similarly broad sample of atheists. Making our one set of atheist parents as bad as the worst set of Christian parents we’ve seen.
It’s not bad or imbalanced storytelling or an attack on Christianity to say “atheist couple X are better parents than Christian couple Y.” That story element would only be a problem if the story treats each couple as the factory standard default setting for their respective belief systems, which Willis clearly isn’t doing here.
I’d argue that Dorothy’s parents aren’t atheists themselves. They raised her areligiously and gave her the opportunity to choose her own and they respect her decision — and nothing in their dialogue indicated that she came out at the same place they’re at.
Mind you, they may not be devout Christians/Buddhists/Wiccans, but there is plenty of room for them to be some form of deist.
This isn’t empty nest syndrome, though. This is empty cage syndrome. We saw how the parents feel about her leaving the nest at the start of the comic: they were cool with it. Happy, interested, supportive good parents.
And now this shit we’re seeing lately. This isn’t about her leaving the nest; it’s about her leaving the sheltered cage of ideas and prejudices that they raised her in. Leaving home, that’s not a problem. Associating with atheists, though – that’s bad! Really really bad! Like, NAZI bad. Because obviously that’s a reasonable and understandable thing to say about anybody.
Go back and read the last few comics. This has jack shit to do with Joyce leaving the nest. It has everything to do with her associating with those dreaded outsiders. The division they’re drawing is between light and darkness. Light being their sainted selves, and darkness being all those worthless shitty scumbags who dare not be in lockstep with their particular flavor of religion and intolerance.
And it can only go downhill from here. Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Dinophiles, homosexuals, ex-cons, black people, mixed-race people, ‘loose women’, people who don’t wear shoes – this dorm is a veritable cornucopia of people who are not clones of themselves, and it’s anybody’s guess who will offend them next! I wouldn’t be surprised if they reject and lambast every single person that Joyce knows here.
Well, except Mike. Mike is obviously an upstanding young man. Perfect for her.
Joyce is a freshman but she’s the youngest of… Five? Seven? They’ve had lots of practice letting go. Befriending a person with a different worldview in he first month of freshman year isn’t really comparable to tattoos anyway, is it?
Well…
Nice work, Willis.
You managed to make a webcomic make me feel physically ill.
I kinda smell someone starting to bear a more simple and relaxed view of religion.
And that smells like . . . freshly baked chocolate chip cookies!
You know its a good thing joyce doesnt listen to slipknot or papa roach just saying if she did and her family found out theyed probably get her exorcisted.
Does exorcism help with bad taste in music?
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
-Terry Pratchett
Now I don’t say this as a rebuff to Joyce’s parents, but what is the first thing that many of you see when you read this? That the darkness is more powerful? That it holds a certain animosity to the light? Sure, I suppose that works.
But what if the light is just to sure in itself, to blinded by it’s own ego to see that the darkness is the thing that defines it? That the darkness has always just been waiting for the light to realize that without it, the light does not exist as well.
Sorry, this came from the “For what fellowship does light have with darkness” line from yon amazing comic.
Love Terry Pratchett!! Was that from *Good Omens*?
Reaper Man, actually. A Discworld book, and one of my favorites.
Reaper Man, at least according to Google ^_^ I just remember seeing this quote on Facebook, and it’s always been one that stuck with me.
“I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I’m sure you’ll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.” Vetinari
I’m a Pagan. But, I have read the Greek and Roman Mythology, The Bible, the Book of Morman and I will read the Koran next. I think it is important to know your fellow human beings beliefs, and I find it interesting.
I always keep in mind that my religion is considered mythology. I find this funny.
I do not find public displays of prayer, even if done “by white breds wearing sweater vests”, to be all that acceptable. Their own Bible speaks to them of not being like the Saraccan (sorry for spelling here) showing off their humility and piousness with public praying, but instead to take their prayer to the closet, to pray in solitude. It has been a long time since I’ve read that passage, I have quoted it as best I could.
People like The Browns are not Christians, I don’t know what they are. But they are not following their own rules, they are twisting them to force their daughter to their way of thinking.
If they’re praying in public to show off I agree with you. If they honestly feel like they need to pray for something specific they shouldn’t have to hide it like it’s a crime (except in countries where it is). Whatever problems I have with the Browns here (and lo they may turn out to be many) they do honestly think they need a move of God here. They’re not trying to show off to the campus “hey, we pray so we’re better than you”. (Granted they probably DO think they’re better than you but I think I’m arguing two different things here.) So it’s the only thing they’ve done here that doesn’t bother me.
The only thing.
I don’t know, I’m also strangely accepting of the fact they wear sweater vests. They make it work, somehow.
Do… Do you think this marks the beginning of Joyce’s doubts and questions causing her to lose her faith and mark her journey into atheism?
If so, that might be too painful for me to even read.
I have to say, as someone who has seen friends coming out of that path (I thankfully was pretty much always agnostic, even as I kid) it is one of the most painful things to watch. I’m stoked that Dorothy and the others are getting through to Joyce and showing her the wider world but (even though this is a webcomic when its all over) I feel really really bad for Joyce.
Or she could acknowledge that people like this are going to exist no matter what and keep being Christian (albeit much more liberal than before).
To be honest, I’m not sure that’s what should happen. I’m agnostic, but I have no problem with people that have faith (to be frank, I actually have some jealousy that they can believe everything will work out even when things are at their worst). I do have problems with (as others have called it) the brainwashing, or with the forced ignorance of the greater world, or turning a belief system that says it’s based on love into something hateful. Joyce has already started expanding her horizons, and that’s good, but I don’t think she has to lose her faith to do so.
If I had to bet on an outcome for Joyce, I’d say she’d end up mainline Protestant when all is said and done, though she might flirt with abandoning Christianity altogether during her “okay, I don’t believe what my parents taught me anymore — what DO I believe?” phase. She might examine paganism or atheism, but I don’t think they’d be good fits for her in the end. If her relationship with Ethan were to last long enough she might consider the idea of converting to Judaism, but I expect that ship to hit the reality-iceberg and go to the bottom long before she gets to that point.
I think seeing her shop around for different flavors of Christianity during her entire crisis of faith is more probable than a “my week as a Wiccan” type story, though, even if I’m not entirely discounting the possibility of the latter.
Of course Joyce is going experiment with various religions and belief systems. But in a way that offends literally everyone.
Y’know…I hope not, honestly. Sure, I’m all for heaps of character development and painful self-reflection, but…
Alright, look.
Joyce’s original character arc during the final years of It’s Walky! really spoke to me. Everything from around Dina’s death through to the end of the series; from suffering successive crises of faith to coming out a stronger, better person but not having cast everything aside.
I grew up in a fairly moderate/liberal Methodist church. The kind of church that would allow the youth group to build a real genuine haunted house each halloween (a real one, not a hell house or whatever. We did zombies and ghosts and graveyards and shit. Not a single biblical figure to be seen). Then when I was around…19, I think? A lot of political shit went down behind the scenes, and long story short we had a split in the congregation and the new pastor was far more fundi and in line with a lot of the remaining church (mostly the older folks). Halloween was neutered, and soon I started seeing creationist books popping up.
Anyway, I read It’s Walky a bit after I left the church and was suffering from successive crises of faith. And you know what spoke to me? Joyce’s conversation with The Cheese; about how even if you’re wrong, at least the choice is your own. Joyce’s conversation with Joe, about her faith is for herself. Joyce’s conversation with Walky, about how despite everything that had been thrown at her, he was a shining example about why she still believed. It started me on my own personal spirital path. Twelve-thirteen years down the line, I’m something of a post-Christian pluralist who hasn’t been to church (aside from Christmas with the family) since. But I still have a very strong personal faith. I even minored in religious studies in college, and have a fairly impressive library of various religious texts from that time. And as silly as it seems, I think Joyce’s arc at the end of It’s Walky! was a big factor in that.
So…I dunno. If she became an atheist it wouldn’t be the end of the world, and it might even inspire someone else on their journey down the road. But it would be really painful for me to read, because it would be sort of a parting of the ways for that character and I, since I don’t ever really see myself becoming one. Changing, sure, that comes with life. So…yeah. And that’s not a knock against atheists (I mean…almost all of my friends are at the very *least* agnostic), I’m simply speaking for myself, personally.
…Huh. I wrote way more than I intended to. Shit.
Have this many readers really never seen a group prayer before? The only bad part is that he makes it out to be her problem and made a backhanded comment about Dorothy.
Group prayer does not usually involve putting your hands on people’s bodies
Well not normally in a Church, but families do it sometimes.
Wait, I guess it wasn’t really her decision. That’s not how it’s supposed to be.
My husband’s Catholic and they did it once in a while in some of the church groups – but only if the person actually wanted it (at least so it seemed)… Either way it always creeped me somewhat out but I was also raised not only in a quite non-religious family but in a ditto country (Denmark) so overt demonstrations of faith etc. was and is still for me rather strange and outlandish…
Used to happen in my church all the time. Normally with two or three people, standing at the back or the front. We’d have a focused prayer time at the end of the service where the congregation sang a few songs and anyone who felt comfortable could go to any of the volunteer prayer partners and ask for prayer for absolutely anything.
Now I’m at a different church, and they don’t really do that sort of thing, which is fine. I find that I miss having the option sometimes, though. It’s really wonderful and comforting if you’ve asked for it and just need the touch of another human being, especially if you’re having a hard time.
This is not how prayer ever worked in any part of my family.
I grew up in a very fundamentalist religion. Laying on of hands was *doctrine*.
Whether the person being prayed over wants people invading their personal space or not, far too often.
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
I hate people who pray for what they want to happen every single time rather than leaving it open for God to actually have a say in the matter.
I liked her parents better when Joyce was the neurotic one and her mom kept trying to get her laid.
“Honey, have you seen the good book? …No, the OTHER good book.”
Good times.
Oy, me too.
How I wished that her parents in this universe would have any semblance to their other selves.
I weep in disappointment.
Who knows. They might still fuck like bunnies.
How many siblings does Joyce have in this universe?
Three, as opposed to five in the Walkyverse. I’m never learned why, though I assume it’s so the Brown siblings can form a barbershop quartet.
“Heavenly Father,
Watch over my parents and grant them your blessing
So they may survive the dicks I command them to go choke on
Amen.”
I’ll have to remember this one for my family’s next Thanksgiving.
An internet to you Ms. Farmer.
I read that as Falmer.
Somebody’s been playing too much Skyrim 😉
Well I’ve received the image of a Falmer wearing a straw hat and overalls plowing some underground fields.
I’m a guy, buddy. I just keep getting Sierra as a Grav.
Joyce, I love you. I want you to be a golf pro.
Damn you for making me feel old.
I’m just glad that somebody got it.
Please someone explain this to me.
Good grief Joyce’s dad reminds me of my dad….Ugh!
Joyce hon… run…now! Get out while you still can!
“I see it’s Joyce teeing up to the third hole at Human Decency. It’s a hard dogleg left, with the smart play being to shoot to the outside elbow.”
“I disagree, if she goes to far Right she’ll be in some thick rough, hard stuff to get out of.”
“If she tries to play it along the left the way she normally does, she’ll be right back in the sand, just like the last hole.”
“Good point Bob. Let’s see what she does.”
That last panel… is that the seed of awakening I see sprouting on her brow?
Oh, no, no it’s not. Just speck of dirt on the monitor.
Anyway, onward to tomorrow!
Sorry, I see “Joyce” and “the third hole” and my mind goes to a really filthy place and refuses to even read the rest of the post, replacing it with something that would likely make Faz blush.
Because going and actually speaking to Dorothy and getting to know her is SO MUCH HARDER AMIRITE?
Wait, they probably think they’d be doing Satan’s work if they did that.
What I’m taking away from all of this isn’t that Joyce’s parents are cultists or ruthlessly indoctrinating her so much as treating her like a little who doesn’t know what she’s talking about and needs her hand held through everything. They don’t trust her enough to have a non-Christian friend and stay a Christian herself. It is then humorously exaggerated, as befitting a primarily comedy-based webcomic. Poe’s Law is in effect, however.
Like the attempted drugging and rape of Joyce at that party was “humorously exaggerated, as befitting a primarily comedy-based webcomic?”
Your argument is invalid.
AHAHAAH haha. ha. HA.
If you think this sort of thing is “humorously exaggerated” then I envy you, because this was quite literally what my life was like growing up, and what it continues to be like every time I have to spend time with my parents despite being 8 years removed from when I left the church.
From what Willis has mentioned about his childhood, I’m betting he is writing from experience.
As someone who is the punching bag of Poe’s Law more often than not… no. What you should take away from this is yea, some parents/people ARE like this and it’s no humorous exaggeration. Especially if you’ve been on the receiving end, I reckon.
My reaction to Joyce’s parents…part 2…
I Hate! Hate! Hate! Hate! Hate! Hate! Hate! Hate…You!
“There Joyce, are you happy?! Now we have to bother God. He’s probably in the middle of dinner, too, so I hope your friend is worth it!”
“Joyce, don’t you remember what we told you? Every time you distract God with your piddly shit, he loses his place and gives a new baby an extra chromosome or two.”
This comic is even more awkward when you remember that Joshua is still in the room, probably standing off to the side, feeling really uncomfortable because he used to be in Joyce’s position.
Welp…I’ll be honest. If they actually leave it at this, it’s better than I had feared. I’d rather have Joyce deal with this weirdness than her parents flip out and deliver some kind of ultimatum by holding her college funding over her head.
At least this way, it’s still Joyce’s decision, she’d just had her rather f’ed up upbringing shoved in her face a little harder. And that was going to happen sooner or later anyway.
This so reminds me of Monty Python’s Church Police.
So, let’s take it to God is Brownspeak for “stand there and be quiet while we invalidate your opinions and force our rationales down you throat.” bless his heart, Mr. Brown’s a dick.
Welcome to the world of fundamentalist Christianity.
this gets me so pissed, only because this is how my parents have acted and still act and it just pisses me off, just because someone believes something different it doesn’t make them a bad person
Sorry Mr Willis, but my wife has dark brown hair.
And this my friends is why I left Christianity behind and never looked back, I just hope Joyce sees her family for what they are, extremist bigots and avoids going down their path, because losing faith in anything is a tough road to go down, but modifying your faith to better fit the realitys of the world is the best move.
Seconded. I believe that Joyce’s faith is important enough to her that she’ll try to adjust how she views the world without losing it altogether, but it might come with one of those EXTREME SWINGING TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE phases first.
Despite the fact that I could never return to Christianity after my history with it, I would be much happier to see her come to a more true and loving form of her faith in the end.
Yeah. Whether or not I believed in God and the divinity of Christ became a non-issue as soon as I figured out I had nothing to do with the terrible closed-minded bigoted ignorant people that this religion creates.
Every time I think I might like to try another church that advertises themselves as “different” or “tolerant,” I find that they’ve still done something like kicked people off staff for coming out as homosexual, for instance.
I’ve told myself I’ll give Christianity another chance if I can actually find a church with a transsexual on staff. It’s a good litmus test, I think.
Now let’s contemplate that David told us the Browns were going to be a distant second in the “worst parent” competition of this story arc.
Ponder this gravely. And then delete your bookmarks while you still can.
We haven’t seen the darkness in the hearts of Dina’s parents yet. Or Dorothy’s. Which will it be?
How… How did the Saruyamas even have time to do that to a human body in the space of an elevator ride?
Noooo, we never even expected Sarah would die! We were too worried about Ruth and Dina!
I thought it was the Siegals he said were going to be a distant second.
*checks* Yeah, that’s what he said. I sincerely hope this is what he was talking about, though I suppose the Walkertons still have time to show up and start sacrificing kittens.
Mrs. Walkerton: Hey walky. Check out all the cat’s we killed on the way here! Soup’s on!
Walky and Sal: OH BOY!
“There was even a kindly young blonde man who offered to strangle them for us! You should meet him.”
Mr. Walkerton: He only charged a nickel! Speaking of which, where did my wife run off to?
This looks less like a prayer and more like their trying a three-way Vulcan mind-meld.
Being an atheist who spent part of my youth growing up in the bible belt, all I can say is that this arc is pretty spot on and disturbing.
Ugh
We must exer-CISE the DEE-muns!
Are they out of shape?
Joyce’s eyes are opening.
It’s a literal metaphor!
I was an evangelical myself, and I have to say I recognize all that I didn’t like about certain types of evangelicals in Joyce’s parents. While an atheist myself, I love pointing out to that type that Jesus’ ministry was not to the “publicans, who wish to be seen as devout” but rather the folks people automagically decried as unrighteous. Tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, what have you. When I hear prayers like that (and boy did I), it made me cringe. It didn’t feel -right-. I’m glad to see Joyce cringe. It makes me happy for her. It makes me believe in her.
not gonna lie, i like the Browns for trusting Joyce to make her own decision, in at least some capacity. i know from personal experience that this guilt trip could be SO much worse.
AHAHAHA well, in some capacity that if she doesn’t make the “right” decision I get the feeling things are gonna get more drastic.
Maybe not. It’d be nice if they actually just let her make it. Buuuuut… my gut instinct is telling me they won’t.
And then everyone combusted royally, as if they were made flesh into burning bushes. There was made screaming until the walls, and ashen marks that stain forever more, and all was made well.
Somebody should tell those assholes that even the tiniest light is more visible and discernible during darkness.
Third panel. I would hate that so much. Stop touching me!
Haaaaaaank. Haaaaaaank.
Do my wooooorks, Haaaaaank. Bring back Enterprise, Haaaaank.
Joshua: What does God need with a starship?
It was meant to fly.
All the best ones that makes any difference.
I am tardy to this party, but let me just chime in, excellent handling of the subject. Well written.
Who prays like that? Jeez.
A depressingly large number of people, my parents and everyone I knew growing up included.
YEP and if you don’t let them, they’ll think you’re possessed because obviously if you don’t want to be touched by strangers, YOU’RE the one with the problem
(also raised as a radical fundie hello)
Somehow the fact that she’s wearing the Monkey Master shirt is making these strips even better.
I like how Monkey Master seems to disapprove of the situation as a whole.
His eyes tell us so much while he speaks so little.
This… is why I don’t deal with people who are too in to their religions, I’ve been around people who are exactly like this and it’s pretty freaky.
The light is not to be a part of the darkness but to be A LIGHT to the darkness. I am a Christian and this comic felt like it was generalizing Christianity so I just wanted to point this out as clarification.
Dude… compared to this, I realize my dad was pretty okay – and I’m talking about a freaking Holocaust revisionist.
In my mind, the phrase “Let’s take it to God” should only be preceded by some records scratching, and then, two people being carried up to Heaven so that the angels and the saints can judge a rap competition.
EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORYYYYYYY!
I AM THE DARKNESS!
I like the last panel. Looks like someone is maybe starting to think for herself. Too bad, I was looking forward to what happened to her in the Walkyverse.
Wow. Just wow. What I love is the sheer arrogance. “Well Honey let’s ask God to guide us but oh we aren’t going to wait for Divine inspiration we are going to presume to tell him to guide you to what we have decided is right and wrong”
Lol oh damn I just realized even with her painfully mean at times naivety that the sheer evilness of Joyce’s parents makes me like her.
I know people are going to be all “they aren’t evil (headscratch)” Yeah see the thing is Evil isn’t “I want to take over the world and I know I am the bad guy” Evil is the “I will teach my child to condemn and shun all who do not believe in my ways for they are lesser humans than us”
The saying, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions” actually means something and it’s not that good deeds are a great way to make things go bad it’s that you can love someone but if your good intentions involve doing things that are objectively bad or wrong to that person or teaching them to do so then you are on a one way trip downtown.
These are the kinds of parents, in my experience, who either raise religious bigots and hypocrites, or kids that go onto to destroy their lives when they go off to college because they go from “100% control” to “I can haz drugs?”
Sad because the parents are the nicest people in the world. So long as you share their faith.
I wouldn’t say they ARE evil, but they are BEING evil. The Bible condemns this sort of behavior.
Must be hard to take it to God when your parents insist on talking over Him like that.
Real Talk.
God can’t get a word in edgewise.
Can’t get it in slantwise neither.
They really ought to look at how the early apostles operated.
…I don’t think they’re “taking this to god” here. What that is, is saying we’ll involve god, then telling god what his answer is. which is probably the most non-pious thing you can do.
I think joyce’s parents may be some of the most unpleasent folks I’ve seen. especially since theres nothing in the bible to prevent folks from talking to non-christians, so the ground of their argument have already collapsed…
gah!
If anything, it says you should befriend non-Christians FIRST.
“But Christ befriended sinners and then saved them. Be not yoked with unbelievers.”
-My pastor
^exactly what any of the pastors at any of the churches I grew up in would say, yep.
Hah, did anyone else get an ad for a Christian university on this page today?
I keep hoping they’re going to get better. Unfortunately, I’ve heard everything they’re saying before….from members of my own church. Course, the problem with my church is probably the fact that the average age of our congregation is in the 50’s to 60’s, with a few people who are getting into their 70s and 80s. My sunday school teacher apparently read Horton Hears a Who for the first time in her life last year.
And as the youngest member of the congregation, everything I say is ‘inaccurate’, and ‘uneducated’ as I haven’t been alive long enough to have their many years of saying the same things over and over again. When I just point out things the bible says that I think are interesting. Like the part where Lot, with angel guests in his home, is asked to march out the handsome men visiting him so the city of Sodom can rape them. Instead, he sends out his two young virgin daughters and says “Take them instead!” It’s ridiculous, and I find it hilarious when the people twice my age say this is a good thing because he’s ‘following god’s word’.
All in all, the Browns remind me of my church. They talk like old people who’ve grown up being taught the same thing over and over again and told that anything different is evil. (Not that the people of my church aren’t…friendly. They’re just…stubborn with their doctrines.) If they met while going to college here, how exactly did they survive to graduation without losing all their friends? Or did they have any?
I’m guessing they only had friends who are of their own denomination, or at least were all Christian. So not very many, given the college setting.
Fortunately, my church was always open minded about this sort of thing; even if you can’t convince them to convert, at least being kind to them can dispel some of their misconceptions. If you really want to get into it, the Bible DOES say to talk to nonbelievers or those who follow other faiths, because preaching to the choir doesn’t accomplish nearly as much.
I’m UK based and raised atheist so have to ask. This is just a joke isn’t it? This isn’t something religious parents actually do is it?
It’s no joke. Didn’t experience personally, thankfully, wrong religion for that, but it’s a thing.
That being said, I have no clue which thing you’re talking about. The laying on of hands? The condescending so-called “prayer”? Something else?
My issue was the use of passive aggressive contact prayer to their god worded in such a way as to make the child feel they are wrong for even thinking outside the box the parents have allowed them to think within.
I’m reading this and all I’m seeing is the time many years in future when Joyce finally snaps and says to them “Well, following your example I was talking to a nice preachers son who tried to rape me, which I’m sure God would have forgiven seeing as the guy was a believer. Luckily for me, but unluckily for God and his chosen friend for me, an atheist and a few others you guys would look down on came to my rescue. Don’t worry though. I know that they’re the bad guys in that scenario.”
As someone who was raised Roman Catholic, this is not something that commonly occurs in the RC faith. At least not like this. While praying about something is not uncommon, it’s usually done silently and privately. Of course every religious denomination is different, and this isn’t outside the scope of what some denominations might do.
I keep trying to add briefly to Doom’s point, but it keeps turning into an essay.
Simply put a real fundamentalist Christian (notice I used a small “f”, that’s important) follows what the Bible says as it is written, with some room for interpretation. Meaning, they don’t reject others and they don’t use prayer as a passive aggressive weapon. And in this case, the laying on of hands looks like it’s meant to just add to the condescension.
In short, Joyce’s parents are bad at following their own beliefs.
For the record, I do get that anyone doing this kind of fails at their religion. I’m not one of those atheists who counts all religious people as bad.
After reading the comments here it saddens me just how many people have grown up under that. I’ve seen versions where non-believer parents do similar, but it doesn’t seemquite as bad without bringing a flawless being into the equation and putting it on your side. Even arguing your side goes against your beliefs to a degree then.
I think the Browns chose IU because they thought the school’s logo was a ‘happy cross’.
Can this strip surpass the one the day before? Only time will tell.
I can’t wait until they meet Ethan and his folks
Me either. Me. Either.
First off,..: Props to Willis for generating a heated discussion.
On Topic: On the one hand, Joyces Parents are ACTING LIKE PARENTS.
On the other, They are learning to “let go” the hard way. As a parent it is required at some point to let your kids walk into walls or fall down. You won’t be around them forever,.. so they have to learn to function w/o you.
But THIS IS HARD if you care about your kids.
You would rather that they have most of your standards as far as morality, acceptable behavior, and common sense,.. but its not an auto-pass on with that stuff,.. so you do the best you can,.. then pry your fingers off on digit at a time to see if they can stand on their own.
I give her parents more slack than I give her.
I’m glad to read that not everyone’s take-away from this strip is “Joyce’s parents are horrible hateful people.” What Willis is portraying here is very real, and so like real life, there are a lot of different valid ways to interpret it.
I also find Joyce’s parents’ actions understandable and human, albeit wrong-headed. In my view, they did right by expressing their concerns to their daughter (even though those concerns came from a warped worldview) and attempting to put the matter in God’s hands. Where they went wrong was when they started presuming to speak for God, without having made an effort to listen to Him in the moment. Instead, they fall back on their own understanding, based on their long-held interpretation of a selection of His words.
It’s a common mistake (found in religious people but not limited to them), to grow up learning a worldview and then, once you’re an adult, think you understand everything and stop learning. That seems to be what Joyce’s parents have fallen into. I’m hopeful that Joyce will do better.
I also acknowledge that Joyce’s parents’ treatment of Dorothy’s family and their outlook on atheists in general is hateful. And I acknowledge that when parents are overly controlling, it’s harmful to their children. But these serious flaws don’t turn Joyce’s parents into demons in my mind. Rather, I see them as very human.
They’re not attempting to put anything in God’s hands, though. I mean, my personal opinion is that they’re “praying” to their imaginary friend, (and even if a god exists, it doesn’t take a whole lot to put to absurdity the whole notion of prayer anyway) But even within their own belief structure, they’re using prayer as a way of passive aggressively manipulating their daughter. They are preying upon (hah) her trust and natural human familial interdependence.
Honestly, I kinda view this scene as offspring abuse.
I don’t. I grew up under this. It is mental, emotional and social stunting of your child.
You don’t allow them to make decisions for themselves, but rather have them constantly defer to someone’s specific interpretation of the Bible.
Soon, we’ll probably see Joyce arguing interpretations or justifying her own interpretations just so she can do what deep down inside she knows is right but her brain won’t allow her to do without constant niggling, afraid of displeasing God by doing the things her parents and her pastors told her “Christians don’t do.”
Joyce is stuck in this situation I found myself in not so long ago: being raised in this scenario where she’s told how the world is evil and full of sinners and full of dangerous things, but now that she’s in it she finds it’s not so black and white.
She’s having a culture shock, and now she has to make a decision to either throw off the bondage and allow herself to finally grow into a fully functional human being or shut down and come back into the fold of being a robot, only following orders of what is wrong and what is right.
Seconding Uejji’s point. They’re being parents, yeah, but that doesn’t make it healthy or good for them to do. I grew up in this sort of environment and trust me, it is harmful and can even easily be abusive when this sort of thing is common.
Because the thing is, they’re not ACTUALLY taking anything to G-d, because they know that G-d agrees with them. They’re older, they’re more experienced in their religion, they have more wisdom. What they’re doing is saying “Well, let’s take it to G-d and then you can make your decision.” and what they’re doing is reiterating what they “know” G-d wants them to believe, and if Joyce acts against that, they’ll say she’s straying from G-d and that maybe she’s not spiritually mature enough to be in such a secular environment and should come home/go to Christian university/etc
Will it play out exactly that way? Not necessarily. But it’s a situation I’ve seen over and over and over again throughout my childhood and young adulthood, and to think that they’re honestly trying to bring G-d into this because they don’t know what Joyce “should” do just shows that you’ve never experienced this sort of parenting.
That’s not a BAD thing by any stretch, I’m honestly glad for you, but that doesn’t make what they’re doing any less manipulative and borderline emotionally abusive.
1st time commenter, gotta say I love this webcomic.
As much as I hate this issue, it does grab my attention, especially since the family situation here is similar to my friend’s life. I’ve even been trying to think of comparing & getting her into this webcomic to see what she thinks of one of the primary characters being so similar to her.
But that last line, “Let us not be yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has light with darkness?” That really rustled my jimmies. Monotheism as an established institution isn’t a special little club to me, just a fruity little club with a large opinion of itself. Someone’s belief of God is their own thing anyway, a personal choice. If the soul is there, it’s indivisibly an individual’s to wield & maintain in what fashion they will.
I think I hate Joyce’s family for belittling even that by their usual carry-on. But I guess that may be why they were written in, to rustle up the jimmies of an agnostic like me, or any atheists.
What a wonderful way to get out of an awkward situation, ignore any possibility of being wrong, and be passive aggressive all in one. All without solving any issues at all, but it hides the discord behind layers of repression and shame. That’s some A+ parenting.
I’ve seen this kind of generation gap before. The parents are all bound up in their tribal identity, but the children are still young enough to believe in unconditional kindness.
Every time I see such kind of attitude – in comics or IRL, I just wonder why the person bothered by others with ‘high and mighty’ religious attitude, won’t just tell them they’re sinners for thinking like this. I mean, in case of christianity there’s helluva lot examples and quotations from the Bible condemning such approach and encouraging empathy and humbleness.
Ugh, this strip makes me angry. Not because of the content, but it reminds me of how my parents used to end all our arguments.
Last panel Joyce is kinda heartbreaking. She still believes them.
What an excellently conflicted character.
For many of us commenting here, it isn’t a character; it’s us every day of our formative years.
Good point. I didn’t intend my comment to sound dismissive; sorry about that.
I don’t think it sounded dismissive, personally, but I think especially in such an emotionally charged setup it’s good for people who haven’t lived it to be reminded that there are a LOT of people who have.
Please be reassured that I haven’t forgotten. I’m reading all the comments and learning. Only best wishes intended.
Please God open up a portal and Send Historical Jesus to the dumb universe.
He is needed
This.
So, she didn’t have the strength to make the “right decisions” before, but now she’s all good? Well, now… isn’t that special?
Unrelated to today’s comic, something about the Dumbing of Age website has triggered a “malicious content” block for the past couple of weeks. This is especially odd as Shortpacked and the other Walkyverse websites all load without issue. Maybe the router is annoyed that Ultracar doesn’t exist in the DOAverse or something.
Anyway, I finally found a workaround, but Willis, maybe you have a tech guy who can look into this?
And seeing stuff like this happen in my former best friend’s place is one of the many reasons I went pagan. (Technically a combination of American Indian animism/shamanism and Jedi; I guess that qualifies as “pagan”.)
Joyce’s face in the last panel… yeah, I had the same face once. It’s “now how am I going to tell my folks they’re full of shit?”
This strip hits way too close to home for me.
You know, if you can’t even associate with people who believe differently for fear of losing your faith, it strikes me that your faith was pretty weak to begin with.
You know, that was actually one of the last things I sat down and considered as a strong Christian. If associating with people who believe differently can pull me out of my faith, then what good IS that faith? Which was then followed by a few months of struggles with my faith that ended in me throwing caution to the wind, kissing the (non-Christian) girl I had a crush on (HOMOSEXUALITY, O NOES!), and leaving Christianity for good.
Because it’s true. My faith must have been pretty weak to begin with if being around people who believed differently from me could so destroy it. I believe in other things now, and am married to someone who doesn’t share those beliefs, and we are both content, supportive, and don’t struggle to keep our faith in the face of each other’s unbelief. I definitely know which faith I’ve held is strongest.
That’s a really bad metaphor in the last panel, Mr. Joyce’s Dad. Light makes shadows.
Everybody should read this comment.
Remember these people never prayed because they were too busy trying to get Walky to fuck Joyce?
I think I liked them better back then…
Perhaps it is all good, maybe she will use her faith to help her make the RIGHT but difficult decision, even if it pisses her parents off
Well, it’s official. I now hate these two manipulative jerks more than I hate New!Joyce. And that’s an impressive feat.
Callin my peoples all across the world
This song goes out to all the boys and girls
You want them thugs to come and turn yo’ party out
You better take it to da God, (c’mon) now (uh uh uh)
(uh.. yessuh!)
Speaking as a Christian, Willis’ depiction of Christianity seems to be less any denomination of actual Christianity I have ever heard of and more ‘Westboro Baptist’ every time he explores it. If I didn’t love the cast of characters so much, I’d probably have stopped reading DoA a while back. Any chance of showing any form of Christian that isn’t made of straw or otherwise deeply flawed at some point?
In fairness, *all* of the characters are deeply flawed, not just Joyce. That’s kind of what this comic is about!
Also, there’s always Sierra. She seems pretty centered.
But she DOESN’T WEAR SHOES! That’s a huge flaw! She’s patient zero for a ringworm epidemic just waiting to happen!
Really? Because this seems pretty spot on to every Southern Baptist I know.
Joyce and her upbringing were based on Willis’ own experiences, you know. Amber, and Billie are both relatively well off Christians (Amber was Catholic in Shortpacked!, while Billie refers to not believing in God as “weird”. Everyone else’s religious beliefs have never been touched upon.
Well, give or take a couple of Jews, but who cares about them?
My bad, I forgot about them (insert you’re own joke here). But yeah, of all the confirmed Christians in this comic, all of them except Mary and Joyce’s parents (and Joyce if you feel that way about her) are fairly well rounded.
*Your. Gotta watch out for those Grammar Nazis.
It isn’t a straw man, Captain Butt-hurt.
Alright, that’s a bit harsh. I’m just sick of people saying “Christians don’t do that/this is inaccurate/they’re not ‘real’ Christians” every time a strip mirrors his life.
Speaking as a former Christian, trust me, this is indicative of a sizeable portion of the Christian population.
If you think this is Westboro Baptist Church levels, you have not seen the Westboro Baptist Church in action. That would require a LOT more judgment, even from Joyce. It wouldn’t be “ew sex” it would be “I’m not going to talk to any girls that so much as date for they are a slut and destined for hell, nor will I go on any dates at all myself for I am not a slut” and a lot of other more extreme methods.
First of all, if you think that Joyce’s parents are made of straw, you haven’t been reading the comments. Because quite a few people have chimed in to say “YES, MY PARENTS AND/OR PEOPLE I KNOW WERE EXACTLY LIKE THIS”. Second, Willis has stated MULTIPLE times that Joyce is more or less autobiographical. Third, Sierra is a fairly normal Christian, other than the shoelessness, even though we haven’t seen much of her. Fourth, pretty much everyone is flawed in this comic, so not sure why you’re singling out Christians. And finally, flawed characters tend to be more interesting to read about than flawless ones.
I think anyone who can come to this page, see the HUNDREDS of responses from people who resonate with this storyline, who lived this very life depicted, and are grateful to have somehow survived it… and then still call it fake because it’s inconvenient to their personal worldview…
… is kind of the hugest of assholes.
So go fuck yourself.
Or maybe he’s just an ignorant kid who wants to play in a big-boy debate. I remember tearing into a creationist on a message board years ago. It wasn’t until later that I realized his user name was based on a Sponge Bob character.
I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself there. Sponge Bob has loooooooots of adult fans. You were not necessarily talking to a child.
Belatedly, thank you for this.
Well, if I took the time to try to answer everybody who seemed angry or upset about what I said before, I’d be here forever, and unfortunately I have to get back to work. That being said, as a final comment. It’s easy to judge. It’s really easy to hate. Forgiveness, that’s hard. But it feels better. And everybody deserves a break. Everybody.
They can have forgiveness when they show repentance.
Timeout and Makkabee both speak the truth. Everyone should have the chance for redemption, but that’s a two way street.
Agreed. But I will not hold my tongue on the Browns’ actions, until they take such action that separates them from so many others of their ilk.
Mr. Christ is as Mr. Christ does, and I have no beef with him.
Ok then. Why shouldn’t we ask that the Browns forgive Dorothy? They’re judging her. Shouldn’t we hold them to the same standard?
I’d say it was because Dorothy doesn’t need forgiveness, and also because the Browns aren’t the forgiving type.
The Browns themselves may not be as bad as they’ve been coming across, it’s true.
But no one is owed forgiveness. I will not forgive my parents for the emotional and mental abuse they inflicted on me when I was younger, and I am under no obligation to. I don’t owe them anything, least of all forgiveness. I can be gracious, I can be civil, I can even be friendly in the right circumstances, but I will not forgive them and they’re just going to have to deal with that.
While I know you in particular are not trying to use the “everyone deserves a second chance/forgiveness” line in this way, it’s far far too often used as a form of victim blaming and victim shaming, and pulling a person back into an abusive relationship.
The Browns, while setting off my alarm bells, might not actually be manipulative to the point of abuse. But that doesn’t mean everyone who treats people – especially their children – this way should be forgiven.
No one, no one, automatically deserves forgiveness. Only the people they’ve wronged or harmed can decide whether or not they think forgiveness is deserved.
You’re making a couple mistakes in my view. You’re right no one is owed forgiveness. On the other hand forgiveness isn’t really FOR the person that did the wrong. Its to allow you to get past the festering boil that holding a grudge is. Doesn’t mean you have to allow someone a chance to hurt you again, far from it. Allowing yourself to continue with life wiser and yet hopefully freed. Keeping in mind the line between self preservation and crippling paranoia isn’t really that wide.
Eh. I like the Buffy explanation.
But, no. The person you’re talking to doesn’t need to forgive their parents for this. Not all “grudges” need that kind of treatment. Not all “grudges” stop us from living free lives.
You are confusing “getting over” something with “forgiving” something, and furthermore presuming an awful lot about someone else’s emotional and mental well-being. If I were Mat, I’d tell you to take your opinion and shove it.
Important note: Under no conditions should anybody ever suggest that there is any onus upon a victim (even for said victim’s own benefit) to forgive. Doing so does not help the victim but, instead, takes part in the victimization.
That is what you’re doing right now.
So, the next time you find yourself about to say something along the lines of “You need to try to forgive”, don’t. Just don’t. Do not do that, stop yourself from saying it and, in so doing, improve yourself immensely.
Forgiveness feels like the same wound reinflicted ad nauseam. Nobody deserves a break. Breaks are designed to prevent somebody from saying “Stop doing that, it hurts me”. They are designed by people who hurt others and wish to be able to do so repeatedly.
It’s easy to ask for forgiveness. It’s easy to put together a story to explain shitty treatment. Making personal behavioral adjustments, that’s hard.
But that’s what I’m talking about. If someone is remorseful of their actions and wishes to change their behavior, then it is my belief they should be forgiven.
If behavior has changed then forgiveness is unnecessary. Former behavior is simply no longer relevant.
If forgiveness is necessary then behavior is as of yet unchanged as evidenced by its continued relevance.
Remorse and wishes are a dime a dozen. They change nothing.
I can’t agree with that. If someone who does horrible things — say, a school bully– experiences the emotional and moral growth to stop doing those things, and instead tries to help people, wants to make up for and heal the harm he has done as much as possible, is forgiveness unneccessary? Does it matter that (some of) his former victims won’t forgive the man of 30 for what the boy of 15 did? I think it does matter — it’s a continuing psychological wound for them and for him. Past behavior never stops mattering as long as anyone remembers it, because that memory colors perceptions and expectations from then on.
I also think remorse matters a great deal. If there’s no remorse, why change the behavior in the first place?
There are lots of reasons to change behavior that don’t involve remorse — like, not wanting to be punished any more for what you did?
You’re operating on a psychological model that treats everyone’s emotional health the same way, assumes that there is an insultingly simple recipe for psychological recovery. You need to accept that forgiveness is not a magic bullet, and to stop presuming to tell other people how to fix their lives. I mean, jeez, where do you even get this confidence, let alone the arrogance attached.
The thirty-year-old man’s turnaround is obviously admirable to outside observers. But it does not obligate his previous victims to do a damned thing. It doesn’t undo what he did to them, and he doesn’t get to control how they feel about it fifteen years later. He might want their forgiveness or even feel that he needs it, but he doesn’t automatically get it. They don’t owe him anything.
And if he only fixed his behavior because he thought he would get cookies for it, then he’s not really that remorseful, is he. True remorse means accepting someone else’s right to kick you in face (emotionally) for what you did and not expecting to get anything out of that kick to the face. A desire to make yourself feel better about the shit you did when you were a kid means going door to door begging people for their forgiveness.
I feel like at some point, we’re going to see Joyce talking to Leslie or some other third party about all this, because I’m pretty sure she’s feeling super conflicted about all this.
She’s going to talk with Mike, of course.
They may be taking it to God, but Joyce seems to be the only one listening to what God is saying. Which is totally different from what her dad is saying.
The right decision, of course, being what THEY want her to do.
I am 100% grateful my parents were NOT like this. Using prayer to guilt trip someone into what you wanna do is reprehensible, not to mention how awful and rude they were. My Mom’s worst was to say “Ill pray for them”, and even then, it was only for God’s Will. I am pagan now, and Mom only has ever said “I still love you. That doesn’t change.” She said it about my orientation too, but that’s another storyline. (Run, Ethan!)
I love Joyce. because she and I have similar upbringings, although my parents weren’t as stuck in the religious quicksand. I know the torture she’s going through, trying to be the good Christian and yet at the same time acknowledging that the blind teachings that manifest in the human evolution of the religion are wrong. There’s still a lot of good Christians, with right thinking, and open minds, and tolerance. There’s still a lot of deceived/deceivers in the religion too. But that’s true for any kind of grouping you can create.
Thanks for making this storyline, David. It’s important, which means it’s volatile, and you tell it well. Just don’t hurt Joyce too much. I am very protective.
Isn’t the context of “yoked with unbelievers” bit about getting married . .?
“Dad… could you please not call my friend the darkness?”
Of course it’d be better if someone interrupted.
I wonder if Joshua’s advice to pick her battles wasn’t actually aimed about converting the atheist, but instead choosing when to argue with their parents?
Um…Yes? That was always the point.
oh, well initially I thought he was advising her against associating with an atheist.
Like “This woman was raised by her parents to be an atheist, she’s not just someone who’s lost her way, you probably can’t save her.”
I love the new poll.
I can’t vote in it, though. I voted for Sierra. I bet the parents that produced her are a lot cooler than the Browns.
This storyline really makes me sad because this is how my parents are. They misinterpret people because of their sexuality of interests. I have to make sure to tell particular friends not to tell my parents what they believe in because my parents will want to make sure that I am not going down the path of “darkness”. God I understand Joyce so much right now(And like twenty other times but whatever). = )-=
Clearly, the Monkey Master tag means that Monkey Master is God.
“Let’s take it to Monkey Master”
I sense rebellion. She is going to become some kind of drippie hifter.
Callback humor is the best humor!
I am a fundamentalist Christian and a strong conservative. That being said, I feel Joyce’s parents are wrong here. Joyce does more to demonstrate the love of God by being open about her faith, but not being closed to others.
SOOOOO MAD! Don’t let them get to you! Make up your own mind and know that your parents should be getting a sign that says WTFO any sec….please?
That’s… that’s actually quite sickening. It really does look like brainwashing, where the name of God is invoked in order to allow further parental control over her.
We don’t really get people like that here in England. Christians are (for the most part) pretty liberal and relaxed. How widespread is this kind of brainwashing/control in America? I always assumed that this kind of far-right Christianity was just very vocal and disproportionately powerful, rather than being too much of a reality among ordinary people.
It really depends on where you live, for the most part. The Northeastern states and California are mostly liberal, and as such most people are lax when it comes to religion. In the Deep South and Midwest (the so-called Bible Belt), on the other hand, things are way more strict.
But that’s just the stereotypes. Every person is an individual, although religion has a much bigger role in America than in Western Europe.
DAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNG, this is a long page.
Isn’t it pray to God not AT someone else? Man that bugs me.
Again, they really missed the boat on setting a good example? Jesus’ whole THING was associating with sinners and treating them as equals. Well, except for that one non-Jewish woman he called a dog but even Jesus can have bad days.
Well, not if he’s perfect can’t. But, it’s worthy of note that the easiest example of Jesus not being perfect is where he doesn’t treat a stranger with the utmost respect she deserves.
Well, the problem with that is our language doesn’t have the nuance of the original text. Jews called the Samaritans dogs, but it would be translated as a mongrel, feral and disgusting thing. The word Jesus used was of a lapdog or family pet, so he was actually being incredibly kind.
This is the same problem of “Wives obey your husbands.” It is actually huppo tasso (sp?) and refers to being under military authority. I.e. the husband has the authority and responsibility to make a decision, but if he does that unilaterally or abuses that authority, he will be judged for those actions.
Sorry for the long rant, but I always try to explain to people a more accurate reading of what’s in the Bible.
(if you think your explanation for the “wives obey your husbands” thing makes it better, then you don’t understand the problem with it in the first place)
To Winged Beast: Context is everything, take for example the “Turn the other cheek.” The left hand was “unclean;” and a backhand slap with the right meant that you were beneath them. Turning your cheek meant that they either needed to slap you with the palm of their hand and initiate a challenge or punch you, initiating a fistfight. In any case, it forces the person that was the jerk must either walk away and admit defeat or acknowledge the other person as an equal.
To Mr. Willis, I guess you have never had a boss or someone with the authority to make a decision on what direction to take a business; if the boss ignores good input, in the Christian belief system, they will be judged for that. I am assuming that you aren’t familiar with the fact that husbands are supposed to love and cherish their wives to the point of being killed for them. Thus, decisions should never be made that are not nurturing to their spouse. In fact Christians are going to be judged as well as the non-believers and many of them will be weeping before they get to heaven (think of it as a pre-trial agreement). Not only are our actions, but even our motives will be judged, it is a terrifying reality if you really look at what it means in the life of the average believer that is almost identical to a secular person.
Another way to think of it is as a dance, who initiates is not important, but someone will be held accountable in the end; according to the Bible, it is the husband. Back to the military example, it is the same as an O-3 can be held responsible for the actions of those under them.
In my own life, in no way do I consider those under my command lesser than me, but they do have an obligation to follow my final decisions unless it conflicts with a greater duty and I will be held responsible for the decisions I make.
Men and women are the co-heirs of the grace of God. If a Lieutenant thinks they are “better” than their Chief, they are in error, each has a role and is held accountable to said role. Often the chief’s decisions are sound and followed after input, but the officer has final say. Even in the Bible, Eve sinned first, but everything in the Bible refers to the sin of Adam for the condition of the world, and it even mentions that Adam was present and did nothing; the fault is placed entirely on him.
The worst thing is that most Christians do not truly live like Christians and offer compassion to everyone. I do not know of many other Christians that are willing to have a conversation with homeless people and buy them a meal when going to work instead of simply saying they don’t have money. The faith has been greatly diluted since its initial founding and it is sad because it was something that transformed the world and actually influenced most modern western views of morality.
Again, I know that you all have different views, but I really wish that you had encountered others that really reflected the way we were meant to be instead of hateful people that used a single verse or two out of context to hurt others. Again a long rant, if you want to continue this discussion, I think my email address is included in this, but if not, please let me know and I will contact you.
You say I am not familiar with this material. To the contrary, I have heard roughly fifteen billion sermons given on the “Wives submit to your husbands; husbands love your wives” bit of Ephesians, all spent trying to explain how it wasn’t actually awful. And back then, I had to agree with this interpretation, because believing in Biblical Inerrancy as I did, I was kind of stuck with the passage.
But it is awful, and no amount of “oh it’s like in the military when your boss tells you what to do but it’s okay because he’s looking out for you” makes it not awful.
That is because fuck stupid gender roles. Fuck them in the fucking ass. Maybe the husband should submit to his wife instead! Maybe they should be two equal partners! Maybe they should figure out a relationship dynamic that they can agree on between them instead of adhering to some second-century jackass’s rigid and unyielding idea of what a husband and a wife are about!
(That “second-century” bit wasn’t a mistake. Ephesians probably wasn’t actually written by Paul. Paul was way less interested in promoting gender roles, for one thing.)
So you can go on and on and on about bosses and military ranking as much as you want, but those very descriptions are EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE PASSAGE TO BEGIN WITH. It’s second-century sexist trash and you shouldn’t defend it.
If two equal partners disagree, how is the conflict settled and who bears the weight of making that choice? Obviously, you have pretty strong views about this and I will ignore your hyperbole since I have studied this for years as well. I’m not sure we can have a meaningful conversation about this, but I am more than happy to keep the back and forth going as long as we keep this from personal attacks.
The main facts are that if you accept Christian doctrine, even within the Godhead, there are roles, God the Father makes the plan, God the Son Executes it, and God the Spirit facilitates it. No role is lesser than the other. In the New Testament, humans can fulfill this example in marriage or go to the higher calling of being celibate (as I have been [and this is celibacy as refraining from dating/marriage, not no sex until marriage as most people interpret it]). In the end, men and women will be completely and utterly equal; there will be no marriage, they will be as the angels and operating in a completely different manner.
I obviously will have to answer for my beliefs if it turns out that those passages were written to specific churches at specific times as I believe the issue with women teaching, and the hair issue was (and boy was that messed up). Again, I have to operate knowing that I am going to stand in judgment and so my actions are really meant to be done in the greatest love for those around me. I look forward to your response.
Also, I am assuming you deliberately took the quote about being yoked to a non-believer from the statement that people shouldn’t seek out and marry non-Christians and were making sure that you displayed Joyce’s parents are some pretty awful people (Who I would be in a pretty big argument with). Anyways, as much as I have a bit of a snark with your treatment of Christianity, I really like your comic.
Of course we may have other issues when I manage to catch up with the other versions of your comic :).
I truly hope you’re being ironic in how your explanations improve matters.
Actually, I was hoping to show how our language is not the best for those who don’t really study ancient languages and know the context of what life was like 2000 years ago. To put it very simply, if Jews normally called Samaritans dogs, filth or mongrels; Jesus called them puppies. He was using the sad prejudices of the time and neutering them. I can’t provide a full discourse in a comment or two, but the thing is, without the willingness to study, most people only have a bizarre view of what Christianity is supposed to be like from miss-interpretations.
“I did not come to help dogs”.
Really, however you use the canine reference, it is a refusal to aid someone and the use of a racial slur. That’s hardly kindness. Really, the best you can come out with that is a lesser evil, in that he only helped her after she accepted her relative moral value as being that of a dog.
What you’re mainly showing is your readiness to grant excuses to Jesus that one shouldn’t grant to mere mortals.
Would you mind citing the verse for that? I will need to do a bit of research to deal with that quote.
The translation you are quoting would also help.
In response to your assertion of a racial slur. Do you really think we are so much better speaking of People of Color, African Americans or Blacks versus the horribly offensive name people were given less than a century ago and still do today?
For some reason I don’t recall the exact verse you are talking about, so I may be misremembering the surrounding info, but Jesus always seemed to be pretty consistent about reaching out to those who were disenfranchised and ripping a new one to the religious establishment.
Our lag time seems to be about a day, so hopefully we can keep this dialogue going by Sunday.
Matthew 15:22-28:
A woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed. But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Really, there’s no way that comes out with a morally perfect Jesus. A woman comes for help, he calls her a dog, and does not help her until she accepts that degradation. Any human being could be said to be overcoming their own bigotry in that, or even putting up a show for the disciples. But, such a show would be, at best, a lesser evil, not moral perfection.
Are we (myself being a straight white male and thus the recipient of much privilege in the US) that much better? Perhaps not. But, then again, we are not claiming to moral perfection.
Sorry for the late response, so I am not sure if you will actually see it or not. Jesus had to work incrementally with his followers because of centuries of ingrained beliefs. Most, if not all, people of that time were not ready to accept his message if he flat out stated the standards and how they should live. As I said earlier, the word he used for dog was a pet, i.e. part of the family which would be shocking to any Jew that heard him say it.
Obviously we are both viewing this through different lens, so here is how I view it. Jesus travelled through an area that Jews were willing to add a day or so of travel time to go around and avoid contact with its people. He was even willing to talk to someone from there, previously he had to send his followers ahead so that he could talk to the woman at the well and they were pretty upset when they got back and found he had spoken with her.
He stated his mission, to reveal the truth to Israel who were then to go on and preach to the world, which actually happened with the early church. He then helps her over the objection of his followers. Jesus never denied aid to anyone that sought it, he just said that it was not his mission to preach to the gentiles. Heck, he made most of the Jews furious because he was willing to associate and help those who were not Jews that sought him out while he was teaching the Jews.
You don’t see the disciples actually understanding almost any of his teachings until afterwards with the there is no longer Jew or gentile, etc. I think you are getting hung up on the wording without knowing the world view that he was having to work to change. At this point, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. Have a good one.
Here’s what I saw. He said “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” likening her to a dog in relative moral value to the Jewish people of the time.
Regardless of which word he used, that was literally a dehumanizing phrase. And, it was not until she accepted that place and thus accepted that dehumanization that he helped her.
Perfect would have been being ready to help her and refusing to let her belittle herself. Perfect would have been not playing into the racism of his followers in the first place.
What you are showing, here, is not the perfection of Jesus, but your own readiness to lower the standards of judgment to meet Jesus and God.
Again, we are both looking through different filters. The entire point of Israel was that it was it was supposed to receive the message of God and spread it to the world, but continued to fail to do so, hence the change from Israel to the new church. God had chosen a certain group to be ambassadors to the world by some pretty amazing things, they utterly failed and so were placed on the bench. Notice that Jesus never did play into the racism of his followers and ALWAYS helped those that sought him out over their objections, every time from lepers (AIDS in our day is the best example to hated social groups). If you want to change people’s minds, it is hard to do so by saying they aren’t worthy of your knowledge and working on your own, the fact he condescended to them allowed the formation of Christianity in the first place. Meeting people where they are instead of where they is a hallmark of this.
You and I are showcases that people cannot accept a radically different world view with a statement from one person. As I said before, this is an instance where someone went far outside the accepted cultural norms to show others that it was acceptable. You are focusing on the fact that Jesus was not able to preach the way that, after two THOUSAND years we can accept that all people are equal, yet a good chunk of the world still will not believe that.
Jesus did not preach that all people are equal. He was especially pro-Jew and anti-Gentile, and this is even through the filter of the Gentiles who wrote about him decades after he had died.
Paul’s Jesus was more egalitarian, but Paul’s Jesus doesn’t resemble the real Jesus much.
Great, you’ve got your own tribal hubris on top of your lowered standards for Jesus.
But, let’s go to another bit. Jesus comes up to a fig tree that is not in season to bare fruit. It is not Jesus’s tree. Despite both of these things, he curses the tree.
Now, if Jesus were not claimed to be perfect, this would be the action of a person. It wouldn’t be the most horrible thing. And, among the rest of the actions claimed of Jesus in the bible, it’d still leave him better than most.
But, it would still leave him imperfect. Imperfection is, if not an excuse, a condition with which we are all familiar. It grants one a little leeway.
Perfection, on the other hand, doesn’t get any leeway granted and can have no excuse. Damage to property not his own absent any good done otherwise… not good.
Making a woman accept the relative moral value of a dog… not good.
Casting demons into someone else’s herd of swine, their livelihood, and driving those swine away… It could be alright for a normal mortal who’s doing the best he imperfectly can. But, not for the totally perfect.
I’m viewing this from a filter that… doesn’t filter so much. I look at the action and judge it. You, on the other hand, are quite blatantly filtering. You look at who it is that did the action and judge it on the preconception that that person is morally perfect.
This doesn’t make you, or Christianity, look good. It makes you look morally bankrupt. It makes you look like somebody for whom morality is infinitely malleable unto your desire to please God.
Oh, and similarly, your thinking that you, as a Christian, are the one to shout the message of God because his chosen people had failed… the amazing cultural egotism of that is… disappointing but not surprising.
Mr. Willis, please provide information about how your statement is true, Jesus helped non-Jews throughout his ministry and even said that a Roman centurion had more faith than most Jews.
To WingedBeast, as I said, we apparently cannot have a dialogue that changes our views, I have tried to explain my point of view and yet you are getting ruder with each response. I will be looking for Mr. Willis’s response, but I consider our conversation over.
Behavior like this is probably the biggest contribution to atheism.
Behavior like this is what made *me* an atheist, yes. At least, what drove me towards it in the beginning.
There are people who don’t ignore their parents’ imbecilic thoughts?
I recall having a genuine mystical experience when I was eighteen. God came to me in a vision and said, “Knock off being a jackass.”
My life improved tremendously afterward.
O_o What the fudge is this, I don’t even…
Oh, well. I suppose this is… the least bad of all possible outcomes?
What gets to me the most is that what they’re really saying, even if they’ve deluded themselves into thinking it’s not, is that they don’t trust Joyce to be responsible enough to make the “right” decisions on her own. They don’t have faith in her or her judgement.
Proverbs 3:5 usually gets quoted in situations like this.
A few years ago, I taught an evening class at a college here, and share an office with another teacher. We would usually cross paths for a few minutes before or after class and exchange pleasantries and that’s it. I don’t remember how it came about, but one evening we wound up having an actual conversation, in which my atheism and her evangelical Christianity came up. We talked for a while, and she asked me a lot of questions, telling me that she’d never talked to someone who had religious views different from her own before (which boggles my mind, but that’s beside the point). I made some points that she couldn’t refute at the moment, and she said she looked forward to continuing the conversation after she did some reading.
Every time I saw her after that, she immediately packed up and left the office. She never said one word to me again. I can’t help but suspect that something similar to this strip happened at her church.
That actually… Sounds really depressing.
What’s worse is that it’s pretty accurate. I’ve got a few friends who were raised in similar households (except they went to school rather than home school) but under different religions (Seven Day Adventist, Jehovah’s Witness, Southern Baptist, etc.) and they’ve told me how they were pretty much cut off from a lot of things at home and not allowed to join in in what most would consider normal (celebrating birthdays and holidays, club activities after sundown) and restricted in what they could entertain themselves with. One of my friends just celebrated his first ever birthday party with gifts and he just turned 28.
I think what irritates me about this strip is how much Joyce’s brother was trying to bail out, knowing exactly what’s going to happen with their parents, and doesn’t try to defend her opinion. Parents normally have a hard time with trusting their kids when they feel they’re naive and what is Joyce if anything but that? It’ll be hard for her at first to voice her thoughts to them because they’ll always want to “take it to God” (i.e. ignore her) but one of two things will happen: They’ll listen to her completely or they’ll shun her for her thoughts because it differs so much from what they tried to embed into her skull for years. So that last panel really hits home: What fellowship has light with darkness? How can one understand what light is without knowing what is not? You can’t just ignore the dark nor can you deem all that is unknown as dark. That’s gonna be tough sale for her to push, but, if she trusts herself enough to know the good in all (and the wrong) I’m sure Joyce will be OK. Love this comic. Wish it could be animated someday.
*Joyce will be OK with or without her brother’s help. I’ll bet anything that he’s fully aware of how close minded his parents are and is either not going to step in so as to avoid whatever wrath of God they may try to enact upon him or so that Joyce can learn to open her eyes for herself. (REALLY wishing we could direct edit comments)
I think the best metaphor here is that, as he’s talking about light and the darkness, both of those parents’ shadows are casting her into darkness.
Gah, I feel bad for Joyce. Whichever way she goes from here will be painful for her. But this might also be where she breaks off from her parent’s beliefs. Where she goes is another question.
Worst ‘take it to God’ ever…
I noticed a couple other people mentioning the idea that Joyce’s eyes opening represented her becoming more open minded as well, but I was struck by something else I considered interesting in that. It is the fact that she opened her eyes during prayer, and I could not see Joyce ever doing that before her parents’ reaction to Dorothy angered her. I also never registered her strong hesitation before agreeing to take it to God, despite enjoying this moment quite a bit. I know this is quite a bit after the original posting, but it bugged me to not mention it.
More than a year later, this comic still makes me literally sick to my stomach. Poor Joyce…
What fellowship has light with darkness? One can’t exist without the other.
The ying yang is an illustration of slight dancing across the hills. Where there is light at one time, there is later shadow. Platonists, like most Christians, will then answer that the sun is the source of light, but there is no source of darkness but the absence of the sun. That ignores that the nature of things is to be different in light and dark, like how flower blooms open and close with light and darkness, so a life of only light doesn’t fulfill the true nature of things. The darkness doesn’t disappear with sunlight, it can be found in the hope for balance, for night and day, darkness and light.
Light has no fellowship with the dark, but the truth can be found in neither alone.