If it’s not a borderless panel, what is is? A gutter space with delusions of grandeur?
It’s an interesting difference of perception. If it’s not a panel, then it’s creating a long pause between the middle panel and the last one; but if it is, then it’s got a more spacious feeling than the surrounding panels, taking a long pause for itself. It could either be showing time passing in between Billie’s and Ruth’s lines, or time passing while Ruth considers Billie’s line.
(I rather think the latter is the author’s intent.)
It wants to break free
It wants to break free
It wants to break free from her lies
She’s so self-hypnotized
But she needs Ruth
It wants to break free…
Lust knows
Lust knows it wants to break free!
I love how Ruth’s the one with a complex crush on someone and when Billie’s screaming that they should bond over something Ruth’s like “Nope, don’t care.”
But yeah, shameless shipping aside, drinking can be an actual problem.
GALASSO’S PIZZA WILL BURN THE MOUTHS OF THOSE WHO DARE TO DENY HIS PIZZA SUPREMACY! THEIR MOUTHS WILL BURN AND THEN HE’LL LAUGH IN THEIR FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACES!
That’s really strong characterization here. So many would instantly take this chance to get them to be together more to tease the shippers but it’s just not in Ruth to take that sort of help easily. Billie is going to have to jump through serious hoops(aka. character development) to get closer to Ruth. Very very nice.
And Ruth could be confused about all of this. She was horrible towards Billie and got rejected. Now Billie is all over her with concern and Ruth finds that unconfortable because of her feelings for Billie. But pride might be the real reason for Ruth to refuse help.
PS: Ruth is very pretty in just a towel, teasingly showing of her freckles.
See this is why I’ve always liked Billie in this continuity, sure she’s been kind of a bongo but she’s always cared more than she ever wanted to admit to.
I liked her as soon as she tried to help Walky hook up with Dotty. Sure, she claimed she was doing it to stop people from shipping her with him, but really it was just a nice gesture.
…that must be Australian regional slang as I’ve never heard of it before in my life, and I really don’t want to know where the hell the connection came from!
Like the holotext says paraphrashed “get them both to a doctor’..or a good AA group. I like Billie’s growth, she is flawed but trying. And Ruth has a ways to go, but nice characterization on her also. Freckles are cute.
What do you mean? Are you saying that
1. the existance of AA groups is sad in that there are people who have those problems
2. They are at a college where it is mostly young, underage students attending, thus drinking would be mostly prohibitted so an AA at the school would not exist
3. AA groups are somehow ineffectual thus not good
4. AA groups are full of people who are there because they are not good
5. Something probably clever and witty I can’t hope to match
6. Something incredibly depressing I have yet to be enlightened about
It’s called spoofing, Willis. You’ve already banned my real IP for DARING to disagree with your atheist propaganda, but if you think you can silence me, you’re wrong.
Apologies I’m sure to this alicewhoever person but the TRUTH MUST BE TOLD. GALATIANS 3:10. YESHUA HAMASHIACH.
Oh good grief. How desperate does this guy have to be to piggy-back on someone else’s IP? Not like I have much of a reputation to ruin, so I’m not even mad, but geez, get help, man. (Or woman.) And maybe stick to reading Chick tracts (or Yeshua tracts, if they exist) if differing opinions make you so butthurt. LMAO.
It’s just a shame to see people who think like this. Can we fault the individual who’s been subjected to indoctrination? I’m more inclined to pity, personally.
Of course, the rights of the people who they harass are ultimately more important.
It’s always nice to see people who use lies and deception to aid them in spreading “the word”. It makes it nice and clear which side is morally bankrupt.
Is AA a group/Association intrinsically connected with the Catholic Church, because I really don’t want to believe that all alcohol rehab support groups, or at least the most popular say that the proper way to fix addiction is transfer your addiction to prayer. I am also wondering from what experience/source you take this stance from.
As someone who had to attend an AA meeting for a sociology class this last semester I can say that they are not intrinsically Christian, though they began by a Protestant man in Chicago a century ago. They must believe in some higher power than themselves but this higher power doesn’t necessarily have to be a deity or God. It can be the human will, etc.
But isn’t human willpower, by default, subject to themselves and thus not a higher power? I can choose to give in to temptation whenever I want to, even if I normally wouldn’t, if I decide to. My willpower may be strong enough, but by definition it’s a part of me, not separate and above me.
You’d think so, AsimovSideburns, but try telling that to a religious nut. They’ll just say that it’s “God’s Will” for you to have that willpower. I’m surprised they don’t mash it together as Godswillpower…
They’re not predatory – they weren’t founded to convert, they were founded to help Christians with alcoholism using a religious approach. AA is likely a bad choice if you’re not a Christian – they make no effort to hide the fact that they’re a religious organization, however, and even a cursory look at their website makes it obvious. That’s their purpose. There are secular alternatives (my best friend’s dad went to one and it turned his life around).
(I’m sorry if I’m being a little sensitive – AA saved my sister’s life.)
What have I done? Maybe I have no right to speak on this subject, I barely drink, but yes, no action a person takes willingly can ever be someone else doing it, but I’m sure whatever AA provides helps those people discover strategies they can use it that process (sounds so far as a single, Jesus based strategy but for I imagine for some Protestant people that might work better for them based on their religious beliefs).
As Alice already said, their strategies are questionable, they demand an almost cultish reverence for the organization, and dismiss any other methods to deal with the issues of alcohol abuse.
Andiemus, I find your response provoking. Not in the, “this provoking and I don’t want my kids to see this” kind off way, but in a way that makes me want to discuss. The thing about this AA situation is that it sounds like everyone views the organization as a recruitment/brainwashing organization, rather than a tool used by people to overcome a difficulty they have. Given how so many people seem to be of this same opinion, and I don’t really have the time currently to do my own research into the matter, and lack of any personal experience, I will stand by the rest of you on that position for now. However, I would feel more confident on that front if I was better informed as to what are the better options for alcoholics. As of this writing (started writing before 2), I have yet to see anyone mention any other specific groups that seek to fufill the same role or less destructive methods available to those wishing combat their alcoholism. I don’t want to leap into condemnation without obtaining a clearer idea as to what is out there. Sorry, I offended you.
Never been to an AA meeting, never imbibed a drop, but My take on it is that the AA is probably *both* a recruitment/brainwashing organization, AND a tool used by people to overcome a difficulty they have. The two things are not contradictory.
Also, the level of predatoryness would doubtlessly vary based on the personalities and fervor of the people running the show at a local level. So you will have accounts from people who found meetings run by sane people who are there to help others, who will not up-play the obvious conversion potential of forcing people to acknowledge and accept a “higher power”*. And then on the other hand you will find AA leaders out there that do.
* As an atheist, of COURSE this is a christian recruiting tool. Because there ain’t no higher power out there boys, and people who tell you so are trying to sell you something. The question is whether they’re more interested in selling you sobriety or salvation.
Basically, having had a father who was deeply involved in AA for a number of years, begbert is right. Yes, there are some groups that are cultish and predatory, and this fact is actually known by the AA leadership (such as it is); due to the nature of its organization, however, they can’t actually break up such groups. The best it can do is advise the leaders of those groups, which obviously doesn’t often have much effect. That said, I’d like to believe that the number of those who genuinely are trying to help is far greater, there’s just a tendency to for the horror stories to spread faster. Finally, I do want to agree that the group who are probably helped best by AA are Christians, but how much the “higher power” gets emphasized, again, varies from group to group.
No, a conscious decision to take steps to reverse her alcoholism saved your sister’s life. A good support system of understanding people, some of whom had their own issues with addiction helped. That happened to be AA, but there’s nothing spectacular about it, really.
And even apart from the barely-concealed theistic undercurrent, a number of people have criticized AA for encouraging those with substance abuse problems to think of themselves as “powerless” to help themselves. Not a healthy attitude for people who already have a disorder to cope with.
The psych ward I was on was mostly people dealing with addictions, so there was an AA group that came in to talk to everyone. This is wholly consistent with the vibe I got.
I have problems with AA and question its effectiveness, but it does work for some people. And it doesn’t require you to be Christian. I’ve known several agnostics and atheists who have gone to AA. When it gets to the step where they have to believe in a “higher power,” they just come up with whatever higher power works for them. One of my friends made art the higher power. Another made it her own mind.
Though, everyone I know who went to AA did pick up smoking.
It still requires you to maintain that this higher power is personal enough to receive your entreaties, benevolent enough to care, and powerful enough to help. It’s not a huge leap from there to most casual Christians’ understanding of God.
Wait, are saying that the people you know who went to AA picked-up smoking after they stopped drinking? As in, an adult started smoking after giving up drinking?
Because wow. I can’t imagine someone starting to smoke as an adult, even though I’ve heard of a few cases before.
Many people with substance abuse problems have an addictive personality. The two people I know in NA (well, one quit) both traded their drug addiction for another addiction. Neither does drugs, but neither is truly healthy.
I agree. I know some people in NA groups peripherally. It seems that almost everyone there smokes, and I am pretty sure some started after they quit other drugs. Few of them seem all that mentally healthy…
Well, assuming most people in AA go through some sort of inpatient care as well… I was the only patient on the hall who didn’t smoke. It was pretty much one of the only times they let you out, so I really don’t blame everyone.
They don’t just have to believe in a “higher power” they have to believe that this “higher power” can restore them to sanity (step 2), they must make the “decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him” (step 3; italics in original), admit to God the nature of their wrongs (step 5), be ready for God to remove their defects of character and ask for that (steps 6 & 7), pray to God for strength (step 11) , and have a freaking spiritual awakening (step 12).
The thing is, AA makes no attempts to scientifically determine how well their program works, and people who have studied it have shown that it has slower recovery rates and causes more anxiety and depression than similar secular addiction treatment programs (a href=”http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1872779,00.html” title=”TIME – Battling Addiction: Are 12 Steps Too Many? (2009)”>source).
So AA is not only absurdly religious, but that religion only makes them demonstrably less effective in achieving their supposed goals.
While I’m fully aware that it’s difficult to actually get the real scientific papers, I have to warn you-
Mainstream news serves scientific stories, especially health stories, are reported the same way a barbeque serves a pig- diced up and cooked beyond any recognition. It may have some of the same parts, but there ain’t a pig there anymore.
I see the AA system as a copout. Instead of trying to take responsibilty for yourself and overcome your addiction, you basically say you are too weak, and through all responsibility to some deity, and then if you fail, it’s not your fault, not a healthy approach, in my opinion. Southpark did a really good job of expressing this.
I’ve never seen a set of comments I felt so compelled to respond to, and I routinely engage in internet slap fights. Willis, I think not only are you off the mark but you’re disappointingly absent from responding to any of the saner responses in favor of giving the nutter more attention.
As someone who has a mother, father, 8+ uncles/aunts in AA or affiliated spinoffs, as well as having attended a handful of open meetings, I feel like I have one of the closest views you can get without being inside. Unproveable credentials aside:
AA is primarily a social support structure and belief framework intended to fill the hole after someone stops drinking. You can’t just pull out alcohol and leave nothing there in its place when alcohol has become the near-entirety of someone’s life. AA is *a* thing that can fill the hole.
If AA is *supposed* to be specifically religious brainwashing, it’s failing. None of the people I’ve met seemed terribly religious, the open meetings I’ve attended weren’t particularly religious, and my parents are teetering on the border of agnostic. Christ, my dad discusses (read: argues very politely) the early history of christianity and how doctrine evolved from there with a handful of his grade school teachers- who are NUNS.
Sorry for necroing an old comment chain, this just rubbed me up the wrong way too much to pass it up.
Somehow I find this both respectable and infuriating all at once. And not in my “just get on the Billie ship!” way I usually get. There’s just something about that particular phrase that makes me want to pat her on the back with one hand and smack her upside the head with the other!! How is that even a thing?
It’s because she’s already Billie’s burden, this is the kind of behavior one expects from a 14-year-old in her livejournal, not a 20-year-old RA who’s responsible for the emotional well-being of others.
She’s a burden Billie has chosen to take on for herself. Ruth did not consent to this, nor is she pleased by this. Billie literally had to break a door to get that image into her head.
I don’t know why for you, but it is for me because this is the sort of mentality I am intensely familiar with and also have to fight pretty much constantly still.
I actually sympathize with Ruth a lot here. I live with depression, and I hate it when my partner tells me that he wishes he could make me happy (during a downswing). I don’t want my happiness or unhappiness or mental stability to derive from other people in my life. I want it to come from me.
Yes, Ruth clearly needs help for her alcoholism. But Billie’s motivations don’t seem to be about identifying what Ruth needs and wants, but at satisfying Billie’s needs and wants. Granted, Billie wants to see Ruth not dead, which is an admirable goal, but it’s still going about helping selfishly. Ruth does not owe it to Billie to make her feel better about either of their drinking.
With your avatar, your comment comes across as an inner monologue. Like a tiny Ruth, sitting on her shoulder, being incredibly self depricating by calling herself a fool.
For the bennifit of my future commenting, did I take that too far?
Thing is, they tried the “Rush” shipping. Ruth kissed Billie, Billie rejected her. Product was returned to the store for lack of an appropriate address.
Yes, but they are still moving on/in water because as watching a program about people finding and exploring shipwrecks on Discovery Channel has taught me, even ships on the ocean floor tend to keep moving.
Just so all you guys know, I really recommend not staying up pass 1am wherever you are from unless absolutely necessary, unless you have a nocturnal sleep pattern or like saying unnecessary things that you aren’t even sure what exactly you are trying to say by saying them, like me.
As far as ships go this crazy one between Billie and Ruth has got to be my favorite one in Willis comics. It happened briefly in the Roomies Redux and I thought nothing of it, but the way it has developed here has become pretty cool. Keep it up!
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Billie drool panel 4
[yes I know it’s not but DROOL]
sorry
[not sorry]
You noticed that in panel 4, but not in panel 2?
Or panel 5 for that matter?
That’s panel 4. The shot of Ruth where she dropped her towel for just a second isn’t a panel because it has no border.
Are you suggesting it should be?
If it’s not a borderless panel, what is is? A gutter space with delusions of grandeur?
It’s an interesting difference of perception. If it’s not a panel, then it’s creating a long pause between the middle panel and the last one; but if it is, then it’s got a more spacious feeling than the surrounding panels, taking a long pause for itself. It could either be showing time passing in between Billie’s and Ruth’s lines, or time passing while Ruth considers Billie’s line.
(I rather think the latter is the author’s intent.)
Also, it totally looks like drool.
Also the fact that Ruth is suffering unrequited love?/lust? doesn’t help either.
I blame Billie’s unrequited bust.
“It wants to break free!”
It wants to break free
It wants to break free
It wants to break free from her lies
She’s so self-hypnotized
But she needs Ruth
It wants to break free…
Lust knows
Lust knows it wants to break free!
I’ll have that song stuck in my head the rest of the night.
That’s not a bad thing.
I didn’t know what song this was so I tried reading it to Blondie’s ‘One Way or Another.’
Queen – I Want To Break Free
Now I’m trying to read it to “One Way OR Another” and… how the hell did you do that?
It doesn’t come out well, like trying to break down a wall with your head. I may have suffered some damages. xS
I love how Ruth’s the one with a complex crush on someone and when Billie’s screaming that they should bond over something Ruth’s like “Nope, don’t care.”
But yeah, shameless shipping aside, drinking can be an actual problem.
Anyway, BUTH4EVA!!1!
I’ll never be your beast of burden.
… or was that leave your pizza burnin’?
So Billie brought her riding crop and saddle for nothing?
You better not burn my pizza! That cost me my hard earned money!
GALASSO’S PIZZA BURNS IF HE WANTS IT TO BURN.
GALASSO’S PIZZA WILL BURN THE MOUTHS OF THOSE WHO DARE TO DENY HIS PIZZA SUPREMACY! THEIR MOUTHS WILL BURN AND THEN HE’LL LAUGH IN THEIR FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACES!
*Breasts
I think that would sound better as:
GALASSO’S PIZZA SHALL BURN IF HE SO DESIRES IT!
*Breasts
Leave your pizza breasts?
Thanks a lot, I’d almost completely repressed my memory of that video. Now I have to go watch it again.
That’s really strong characterization here. So many would instantly take this chance to get them to be together more to tease the shippers but it’s just not in Ruth to take that sort of help easily. Billie is going to have to jump through serious hoops(aka. character development) to get closer to Ruth. Very very nice.
Also: Arm freckles are sooooo cute~
Ruth is too prideful to want Billie, a 1st year, to try to correct her, even if she knows it’s in her best interest.
I’m reading this more as a “don’t drag other people down” thing.
And Ruth could be confused about all of this. She was horrible towards Billie and got rejected. Now Billie is all over her with concern and Ruth finds that unconfortable because of her feelings for Billie. But pride might be the real reason for Ruth to refuse help.
PS: Ruth is very pretty in just a towel, teasingly showing of her freckles.
I think it’s all of the above.
…including the post-script!
See this is why I’ve always liked Billie in this continuity, sure she’s been kind of a bongo but she’s always cared more than she ever wanted to admit to.
Agreed.
I liked her as soon as she tried to help Walky hook up with Dotty. Sure, she claimed she was doing it to stop people from shipping her with him, but really it was just a nice gesture.
Just keep her away from Danny! If those two meet, Ruth will only sink into pure nihilistic despair!
Introduce her to Joe. A good punching bag is what every lady needs.
It’s better that Danny spread the despair in smaller doses to larger groups instead of concentrating it all on one person.
Let’s hope Amber notices it creeping in before she goes from Amazi-Girl to Nietzsche-Girl to Suicidal Recluse Girl…
I guess you could say Ruth is Billies breast of burden! Am I right? Haha… ok.
It’s like Ruth is trying to be sensitive toward’s Billie’s emotions, but completely misses the point.
But Ruth, you are already her burden! The longer you try to do this alone the more of a burden you’ll be, you ding-bat.
Ruth missed the point so badly, she ended up hitting herself in the freckles.
Are you suggesting that Ruth is a ‘freckle puncher’? 😛
…I don’t get it.
freckle puncher: Someone who indulges in anal sex, normally a gay male, but not always so.
…I don’t get it, either.
…that must be Australian regional slang as I’ve never heard of it before in my life, and I really don’t want to know where the hell the connection came from!
I’m from NZ and have heard ‘freckle’ it as a line in the Footrot Flats movie so I could see it coming from down under.
I don’t know if it’s just the new eye color, but I really like Ruth’s faces in this strip.
Maybe she should be called “freckless” rather than “ruthless”.
Wow Ruth is freckly.
Like the holotext says paraphrashed “get them both to a doctor’..or a good AA group. I like Billie’s growth, she is flawed but trying. And Ruth has a ways to go, but nice characterization on her also. Freckles are cute.
there are no good aa groups
What do you mean? Are you saying that
1. the existance of AA groups is sad in that there are people who have those problems
2. They are at a college where it is mostly young, underage students attending, thus drinking would be mostly prohibitted so an AA at the school would not exist
3. AA groups are somehow ineffectual thus not good
4. AA groups are full of people who are there because they are not good
5. Something probably clever and witty I can’t hope to match
6. Something incredibly depressing I have yet to be enlightened about
They’re predatory recruiting camps for Jesus.
Bull crap.
Stop spreading atheist lies.
Why do you have alicemacher’s IP?
It’s called spoofing, Willis. You’ve already banned my real IP for DARING to disagree with your atheist propaganda, but if you think you can silence me, you’re wrong.
Apologies I’m sure to this alicewhoever person but the TRUTH MUST BE TOLD. GALATIANS 3:10. YESHUA HAMASHIACH.
Man, why would I ban you? You’re hilarious! I’m putting this on Tumblr immediately.
The Dina gravitar makes this comment funny.
😀 my f5 can barely keep up with this
No, the absurd content makes it funny.
Wait, that person was serious?
Oh good grief. How desperate does this guy have to be to piggy-back on someone else’s IP? Not like I have much of a reputation to ruin, so I’m not even mad, but geez, get help, man. (Or woman.) And maybe stick to reading Chick tracts (or Yeshua tracts, if they exist) if differing opinions make you so butthurt. LMAO.
You may not have a reputation to ruin, but at least I knew you well enough to know this other dude wasn’t you.
Clearly this person is new here and doesn’t know that Willis once thought much the same way as they do now.
I’m pretty sure God has a tendency to smite those who claim to be Him… Yet, here you are, unsmitten.
Aww, that’s ADORABLE.
They think people on the internet can be converted by listing bible passages!
Can I keep it, Willis? I promise to feed it and keep it away from impressionable children!
Atheist propaganda? Joyce is so immersed in Christianity it makes my eyes spontaneously combust.
It’s just a shame to see people who think like this. Can we fault the individual who’s been subjected to indoctrination? I’m more inclined to pity, personally.
Of course, the rights of the people who they harass are ultimately more important.
It’s always nice to see people who use lies and deception to aid them in spreading “the word”. It makes it nice and clear which side is morally bankrupt.
Um…”atheist” propaganda? lol, you can’t be serious.
Let me guess – he’s spreading the “Big Lie”? Needs to “take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth”?
Oh, this one’s gonna be fun!
No, he is pretty much right on the money.
Is AA a group/Association intrinsically connected with the Catholic Church, because I really don’t want to believe that all alcohol rehab support groups, or at least the most popular say that the proper way to fix addiction is transfer your addiction to prayer. I am also wondering from what experience/source you take this stance from.
AA began as a Protestant-only organization. Their first Catholic member was a big deal.
the ‘primary’ official religion of Sweden is Protestantism.
That said, I don’t really give a rats ass about religion nor politics really.
The primary inofficial religion of Sweden is alcohol.
You’re thinking of Finns, I do believe.
We’re the one’s with the Nobel prize, Finland had Koskenkorva.
As someone who had to attend an AA meeting for a sociology class this last semester I can say that they are not intrinsically Christian, though they began by a Protestant man in Chicago a century ago. They must believe in some higher power than themselves but this higher power doesn’t necessarily have to be a deity or God. It can be the human will, etc.
But isn’t human willpower, by default, subject to themselves and thus not a higher power? I can choose to give in to temptation whenever I want to, even if I normally wouldn’t, if I decide to. My willpower may be strong enough, but by definition it’s a part of me, not separate and above me.
You’d think so, AsimovSideburns, but try telling that to a religious nut. They’ll just say that it’s “God’s Will” for you to have that willpower. I’m surprised they don’t mash it together as Godswillpower…
They’re not predatory – they weren’t founded to convert, they were founded to help Christians with alcoholism using a religious approach. AA is likely a bad choice if you’re not a Christian – they make no effort to hide the fact that they’re a religious organization, however, and even a cursory look at their website makes it obvious. That’s their purpose. There are secular alternatives (my best friend’s dad went to one and it turned his life around).
(I’m sorry if I’m being a little sensitive – AA saved my sister’s life.)
Your sister saved her own life. AA convinced her otherwise.
What have I done? Maybe I have no right to speak on this subject, I barely drink, but yes, no action a person takes willingly can ever be someone else doing it, but I’m sure whatever AA provides helps those people discover strategies they can use it that process (sounds so far as a single, Jesus based strategy but for I imagine for some Protestant people that might work better for them based on their religious beliefs).
As Alice already said, their strategies are questionable, they demand an almost cultish reverence for the organization, and dismiss any other methods to deal with the issues of alcohol abuse.
Andiemus, I find your response provoking. Not in the, “this provoking and I don’t want my kids to see this” kind off way, but in a way that makes me want to discuss. The thing about this AA situation is that it sounds like everyone views the organization as a recruitment/brainwashing organization, rather than a tool used by people to overcome a difficulty they have. Given how so many people seem to be of this same opinion, and I don’t really have the time currently to do my own research into the matter, and lack of any personal experience, I will stand by the rest of you on that position for now. However, I would feel more confident on that front if I was better informed as to what are the better options for alcoholics. As of this writing (started writing before 2), I have yet to see anyone mention any other specific groups that seek to fufill the same role or less destructive methods available to those wishing combat their alcoholism. I don’t want to leap into condemnation without obtaining a clearer idea as to what is out there. Sorry, I offended you.
Never been to an AA meeting, never imbibed a drop, but My take on it is that the AA is probably *both* a recruitment/brainwashing organization, AND a tool used by people to overcome a difficulty they have. The two things are not contradictory.
Also, the level of predatoryness would doubtlessly vary based on the personalities and fervor of the people running the show at a local level. So you will have accounts from people who found meetings run by sane people who are there to help others, who will not up-play the obvious conversion potential of forcing people to acknowledge and accept a “higher power”*. And then on the other hand you will find AA leaders out there that do.
* As an atheist, of COURSE this is a christian recruiting tool. Because there ain’t no higher power out there boys, and people who tell you so are trying to sell you something. The question is whether they’re more interested in selling you sobriety or salvation.
Basically, having had a father who was deeply involved in AA for a number of years, begbert is right. Yes, there are some groups that are cultish and predatory, and this fact is actually known by the AA leadership (such as it is); due to the nature of its organization, however, they can’t actually break up such groups. The best it can do is advise the leaders of those groups, which obviously doesn’t often have much effect. That said, I’d like to believe that the number of those who genuinely are trying to help is far greater, there’s just a tendency to for the horror stories to spread faster. Finally, I do want to agree that the group who are probably helped best by AA are Christians, but how much the “higher power” gets emphasized, again, varies from group to group.
No, a conscious decision to take steps to reverse her alcoholism saved your sister’s life. A good support system of understanding people, some of whom had their own issues with addiction helped. That happened to be AA, but there’s nothing spectacular about it, really.
And even apart from the barely-concealed theistic undercurrent, a number of people have criticized AA for encouraging those with substance abuse problems to think of themselves as “powerless” to help themselves. Not a healthy attitude for people who already have a disorder to cope with.
The psych ward I was on was mostly people dealing with addictions, so there was an AA group that came in to talk to everyone. This is wholly consistent with the vibe I got.
I have problems with AA and question its effectiveness, but it does work for some people. And it doesn’t require you to be Christian. I’ve known several agnostics and atheists who have gone to AA. When it gets to the step where they have to believe in a “higher power,” they just come up with whatever higher power works for them. One of my friends made art the higher power. Another made it her own mind.
Though, everyone I know who went to AA did pick up smoking.
It still requires you to maintain that this higher power is personal enough to receive your entreaties, benevolent enough to care, and powerful enough to help. It’s not a huge leap from there to most casual Christians’ understanding of God.
Wait, are saying that the people you know who went to AA picked-up smoking after they stopped drinking? As in, an adult started smoking after giving up drinking?
Because wow. I can’t imagine someone starting to smoke as an adult, even though I’ve heard of a few cases before.
Many people with substance abuse problems have an addictive personality. The two people I know in NA (well, one quit) both traded their drug addiction for another addiction. Neither does drugs, but neither is truly healthy.
I agree. I know some people in NA groups peripherally. It seems that almost everyone there smokes, and I am pretty sure some started after they quit other drugs. Few of them seem all that mentally healthy…
Well, assuming most people in AA go through some sort of inpatient care as well… I was the only patient on the hall who didn’t smoke. It was pretty much one of the only times they let you out, so I really don’t blame everyone.
They don’t just have to believe in a “higher power” they have to believe that this “higher power” can restore them to sanity (step 2), they must make the “decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him” (step 3; italics in original), admit to God the nature of their wrongs (step 5), be ready for God to remove their defects of character and ask for that (steps 6 & 7), pray to God for strength (step 11) , and have a freaking spiritual awakening (step 12).
It’s ridiculous! If you don’t believe me, here’s a PDF of those 12 steps straight from Alcoholics Anonymous themselves.
The thing is, AA makes no attempts to scientifically determine how well their program works, and people who have studied it have shown that it has slower recovery rates and causes more anxiety and depression than similar secular addiction treatment programs (a href=”http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1872779,00.html” title=”TIME – Battling Addiction: Are 12 Steps Too Many? (2009)”>source).
So AA is not only absurdly religious, but that religion only makes them demonstrably less effective in achieving their supposed goals.
Huh… messed up that second link.
It should have been like this: (source)
While I’m fully aware that it’s difficult to actually get the real scientific papers, I have to warn you-
Mainstream news serves scientific stories, especially health stories, are reported the same way a barbeque serves a pig- diced up and cooked beyond any recognition. It may have some of the same parts, but there ain’t a pig there anymore.
I just want to say, I’m filling this under answer 6.
I see the AA system as a copout. Instead of trying to take responsibilty for yourself and overcome your addiction, you basically say you are too weak, and through all responsibility to some deity, and then if you fail, it’s not your fault, not a healthy approach, in my opinion. Southpark did a really good job of expressing this.
I’ve never seen a set of comments I felt so compelled to respond to, and I routinely engage in internet slap fights. Willis, I think not only are you off the mark but you’re disappointingly absent from responding to any of the saner responses in favor of giving the nutter more attention.
As someone who has a mother, father, 8+ uncles/aunts in AA or affiliated spinoffs, as well as having attended a handful of open meetings, I feel like I have one of the closest views you can get without being inside. Unproveable credentials aside:
AA is primarily a social support structure and belief framework intended to fill the hole after someone stops drinking. You can’t just pull out alcohol and leave nothing there in its place when alcohol has become the near-entirety of someone’s life. AA is *a* thing that can fill the hole.
If AA is *supposed* to be specifically religious brainwashing, it’s failing. None of the people I’ve met seemed terribly religious, the open meetings I’ve attended weren’t particularly religious, and my parents are teetering on the border of agnostic. Christ, my dad discusses (read: argues very politely) the early history of christianity and how doctrine evolved from there with a handful of his grade school teachers- who are NUNS.
Sorry for necroing an old comment chain, this just rubbed me up the wrong way too much to pass it up.
He may not mean Alcoholics Anonymous precisely, “AA group” is often a casual shorthand for all alcoholic group therapy dealies.
He meant Alcoholics Anonymous.
Well, you sure showed me!
Man, I don’t check in for 12 hours and I miss all the fun.
“But I refuse to be your burden.”
Somehow I find this both respectable and infuriating all at once. And not in my “just get on the Billie ship!” way I usually get. There’s just something about that particular phrase that makes me want to pat her on the back with one hand and smack her upside the head with the other!! How is that even a thing?
The reason you find it respectable and infuriating? That’s because it’s hubris.
It’s because she’s already Billie’s burden, this is the kind of behavior one expects from a 14-year-old in her livejournal, not a 20-year-old RA who’s responsible for the emotional well-being of others.
She’s a burden Billie has chosen to take on for herself. Ruth did not consent to this, nor is she pleased by this. Billie literally had to break a door to get that image into her head.
Ruth’s the one who locked herself in her room, neglected her duties as an RA, drunk herself into a stupor and somehow Billie’s at fault now?
If you don’t expect that sort of behaviour from 20 year olds, either you’re not one yet, or were very lucky at the time. They are a messed up crowd.
I don’t know why for you, but it is for me because this is the sort of mentality I am intensely familiar with and also have to fight pretty much constantly still.
I actually sympathize with Ruth a lot here. I live with depression, and I hate it when my partner tells me that he wishes he could make me happy (during a downswing). I don’t want my happiness or unhappiness or mental stability to derive from other people in my life. I want it to come from me.
Yes, Ruth clearly needs help for her alcoholism. But Billie’s motivations don’t seem to be about identifying what Ruth needs and wants, but at satisfying Billie’s needs and wants. Granted, Billie wants to see Ruth not dead, which is an admirable goal, but it’s still going about helping selfishly. Ruth does not owe it to Billie to make her feel better about either of their drinking.
Kiss her you fool!
With your avatar, your comment comes across as an inner monologue. Like a tiny Ruth, sitting on her shoulder, being incredibly self depricating by calling herself a fool.
For the bennifit of my future commenting, did I take that too far?
The only way it’d be better is if Emoroffle had a Mr. T avatar for that comment.
Even better: Roadblock.
Of course, it’d have to be delivered in the form of a rhyming couplet.
I have Roadblock on Shortpacked!. I need to start doing this.
You don’t want this strip to go south
So kiss that freshman on the mouth!
Girl, your life could use a smile
Time to make out licky-style!
Well done, I applaud thee.
That is wonderful.
My internet. I give it to you.
I just feel bad for both of them. 🙁
That’s an entirely appropriate reaction.
Am I bad person for extra shipping them now? :’B
Oh heck, no. I’m sad for them for where they are now but I still ship them.
Clearly they both care about each other, so shipping is still appropriate!
Only if you’re charging extra for it.
Agreed. That’s why I didn’t choose the “rush” shipping option.
Thing is, they tried the “Rush” shipping. Ruth kissed Billie, Billie rejected her. Product was returned to the store for lack of an appropriate address.
Not at all, for there is not enough ships left to ship this.
We should get a bigger hardour for all the extra ships we ship.
Call the Navy!
Yvan eht nioj!
I’ve been shipping them for months now. :3
!!!
No ship for today. ^^
As I understand things, ships are always sailing.
…when they are not being sunk.
Nah, sometimes they’re drydocked…
Yes, but they are still moving on/in water because as watching a program about people finding and exploring shipwrecks on Discovery Channel has taught me, even ships on the ocean floor tend to keep moving.
You guys are crazy.
Crazy is business as usual.
I’m always happy when you have this girl as your avatar.
Ruth, please keep your hair lke this forever.
You’re beautiful. o_o
To think I used to hate her…
Just so all you guys know, I really recommend not staying up pass 1am wherever you are from unless absolutely necessary, unless you have a nocturnal sleep pattern or like saying unnecessary things that you aren’t even sure what exactly you are trying to say by saying them, like me.
I am also sorry for the AA mess, tonight. I feel partially responsible. I am sorry. Goodnight, from Toronto.
In what way was it your fault that someone went off their nut because they didn’t like Willis’s opinion on AA? *hug* Sleep well.
Personally, I found reading the argument that followed pretty interesting, so thankyou for stirring!
As far as ships go this crazy one between Billie and Ruth has got to be my favorite one in Willis comics. It happened briefly in the Roomies Redux and I thought nothing of it, but the way it has developed here has become pretty cool. Keep it up!
It’s pretty great in terms of storytelling, though I may just like this ship because it’s supported in the comic. I think I’m bad at shipping.
However, here’s just something adorable about these two; the only possible way to surpass these levels of endearing is to pair up Joyce and Dina.
I was illogically hoping (beyond reason maybe a better phrase?) for them to have made out before the end of this little tif…
I’m actually much happier with the outcome of events that did occur.
It’s really rare to see two characters have so much development in 4 or 5 strips.
Good job comic man.
Looks at the alt text*
If you mean The love doctor
Then I agree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgIUzM-wvhI
The images in the rss feed still have Ruth’s dry hair.
But she wants you to be her burden! Be her burden Ruth!
I DON’T WANNA WAAAAAAAAAAIT!
FOR OUR LIVES TO BE OVER!!!
But Billie, its okay to be her burden. She used to be a cheerleader. She can lift like, five people over her head. You’ll be like nothing!
This song reminds me of the romance I feel is blossoming here.
The stall’s door handle behind Billy makes it look like she’s drooling.
Could you blame her? Just look at Ruth!
NO RUTH, YOU’RE HER BURDEN REGARDLESS NOW. SHE WILL ALWAYS WORRY. DO ERRIBODY A FAVOR AND JUST AGREE.
Needs more freckles. ::::::::
+1 ^
Is Ruth simply an alcoholic, or was it initiated by another illness? ADHD, Bipolar, Schizophrenia etc.?
Freckles… redhead… just a towel…
*This user has suffered an error and needs to reboot*