Depends on the church. Some churches like the bigger Baptist/Independent Baptist ones have two services, one at 8, Sunday School at 9:30 and the Second Service at around 10:45 and then evening services at around 6. Most other Baptist/non-denominational/independent Baptist churches usually just have Sunday School at 9:30, one Morning Service at 10:30 and then Evening service and Youth Group in the evening. It varies.
Most of the churches I’ve been to (and I’ve been to upwards of 16 in the past 18 years) have two services, sometimes around 9 and 11, sometimes 8:30 and 10, etc. A few have had three. Goodness gracious.
I’m not sure I’d say USUALLY. I never ran into such a thing until I lived in a large college town (where yes, there was something crazy like 5, 7 or 9.) Also ‘student suppers’ before and after some of those. I was just saying the other day, I’m not sure going to church taught me to love Jesus but it DID teach me to love chili!
I suspect the church Joyce goes too has multiple services too. But you fail to understand the mentality of the religiously brainwashed. Which I like to call the all or nothing Christians. You wake up go to the morning service then you go to Sunday school then you go to the late morning service then you go have lunch then you com back for afternoon bible study then you go to the late afternoon prayer meeting then you go to the evening service then you go home and have a late dinner before bed. Some churches even provide lunch and people spend the entire day at the church. Throw in Wednesday night services Deccan meetings, prayer meetings, and other absurdities and you can go to church EVERY DAY.
Joyce certainly strikes me as coming from an “all or nothing” Christian family. She was home schooled after all. I’m not trying to knock Christianity it has some very good teachings, but some people take the road that either all of the Bible is true or none of it is and since some of it is right they follow all of it blindly. Or rather they follow their particular minister’s views on what it all says literally.
The most harmful part of such an upbringing is that it creates an inability to understand how anyone else can live differently. Often you either end up a total slave to you upbringing or you reject it utterly to sometimes destructive ends. A few lucky people break away without breaking themselves and find their own path without leaving their family in ruins, but it’s hard to do since often families go to extreme means to ensure that their relatives won’t “burn in hell.” It’s a form of love and in some ways should be admired but it’s twisted and can leave deep emotional and psychological scars on individuals depending on the situation.
I think your projecting your own issues onto a comic strip character, I was home schooled and brought up in what you might call an “all or nothing” christian home, I go to church at 9:45 and I’d say Joyce is just an early riser who is passionate about her faith. I also think you may have some flawed views of Christianity, I’d be happy to discuss it with you if you wanted to email me.
My current church has four services, so even if you don’t get up until early afternoon you can still catch the 6:30 service. My last church only had one service, but it was Friday night.
I think she just naturally assumes that everyone goes to church on sundays unless told otherwise. The same church at the same time no less. She saw that poor Billie had forgotten to set her alarm and decided to do the neighborly thing and lend a helping hand.
Yeah the girls are probably the main reason to go to church as a teenager. Though now I’m picturing you as That Guy who went with a list of church-appropriate pickup lines to try out on all the girls, Willis.
Temple services were on Friday 7-9pm all year or Saturday10-12 during the fall, winter and spring any way my family only went for High holidays and maybe 4-5 other times A year for שַׁבָּת services the synagogue was a half an hour to 45 minute commute so it wasn’t always convenient to go every week. In college the Hillel offered services from 7-845pm, I didn’t go every week maybe once a month or once every two months and only if a friend happened to want to go services.
I went to a religiously-affiliated university.
Despite the official connection, the student body was not that much more religious than average, and featured about a typical level of religious diversity.
Thus, our church was an on-campus chapel that only had evening services; maybe three people who weren’t students went, and they knew they’d never get any students to a morning service.
One of the best parts of losing my religion has been sleeping until whenever I feel like on sunday. Which is sometimes like 2pm. And then I wake up and go get some lunch, but not Chik-Fil-A, because they’re not open, even though my brain has some pavlovian response that makes me only crave chicken sandwiches on the one day I can’t have them… …wait what were we talking about?
My co-worker and I usually work on the weekends, and we ALWAYS get cravings for Chik-fil-A on the Sundays we work together. We always laugh about it as well, but deep down my heart breaks a little each Sunday.
Isn’t the seventh day supposed to be when god rested? So ergo your suppose to rest, hence Joyce by waking Billie up are you are forcing her to commit blasphemy, not very christian like.
The seventh day is Saturday in America. Church is on Sunday mainly because the original church met on the first day of the week. This is why the weekend is Saturday (day of rest) and Sunday (day of worship to the point nothing else gets done).
The few Christian denominations who worship on Saturday (eg: 7th Day Bapists) do so because they believe that the Roman Catholics had no right to change it to Sunday.
And also watches you masturbate. So, kiddies, before you sleep, check your ceiling because if you don’t, the one with Triangle Smile shall watch you…..FOREVER!!!*THUNDER AND LIGHTNING EFFECTS*
Joyce breaks her spine in the fall. “Choosing your religion” refers to her crisis of faith in response. Eventually, Joyce gets a wheelchair and switches majors from Theology to Computer Science, putting her new skills to use as Amazi-girl’s support operative.
I’d appreciate a roommate who’d get me up at 7 for church. 8 o’clock church is quieter and going with a friends is fun ’cause you snark at the pastor. Also earlier services tend to be more classical than contemporary, at least in my circles. Better music, better companionship, all day to do something else.
Man, even my super-Catholic parents quit trying to wake my sisters and me up for Church. Not happening. Just…no. If someone tries at school…I don’t even know what would happen.
Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. At this point I would theorise about the implications that this has with relation to the ‘choosing my religion’ title of this series of strips, but I worry that I would be correct, and I don’t like spoilers.
Could be worst. The mass could be… at seven a clock… yes I actually have suffered that. Still the worst for me is the new years one even if it’s a noon, because it’s just inescapable as that date use to be my grandfather’s birthday.
One of friends leaves in the very same street as two jehova witnesses churches. And both groups seem to think sunday from 7:00 to 9:00 AM are the very best posible times to proselitise… I honestly don’t know if they think half asleep people is easer to convince or just have no sense of self-preservation…
Billie’s reaction is similar to what I imagine my own would be if someone tried to wake me up on Sunday morning. The only way I’m getting up before noon on a weekend is if I have to work or if the building is on fire or something. I’m certainly not getting up to go to church, as I’m an atheist.
Now that I’ve breathed life into your nightmares, the answer to your question is that probably she wouldn’t dare venture into the bedroom of any male characters at this point, but otherwise it seems likely (assuming that the position of the feet in the last panel was exaggerated, since the only way you’re going to get that rotational velocity and the space to rotate in is if that shove was very, very hard and likely to cause serious injury).
As of a good while ago I always read strips with Dorothy in them twice. Once normally, and the second time in which I imagine Dorothy with Gilbert Gottfrieds voice. I don’t know why I started doing this but it’s hilarious. Anyways this one was actually kind of terrifying to imagine that way.
choosing my religion huh
wilis, you better not take the one well-adjusted atheist character in comics and make her a christian just from ONE church visit.
I am an atheist who was raised roman catholic. i had to attend church every sunday until i moved out of the house at 18. after a two-year existential crises i became an atheist at 13, and none of the intervening five years of church visits changed my mind.
please, i’m begging you. she should stick with her own convictions and opinions, please let her have a stronger will then to be conviced to change her entire philosophy after an hour at a religious ceremony
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That was the best thing about our church. We got to sleep in until… *10*
See… that’s around three hours earlier than a college kid wakes up on the weekend.
Depends on the church. Some churches like the bigger Baptist/Independent Baptist ones have two services, one at 8, Sunday School at 9:30 and the Second Service at around 10:45 and then evening services at around 6. Most other Baptist/non-denominational/independent Baptist churches usually just have Sunday School at 9:30, one Morning Service at 10:30 and then Evening service and Youth Group in the evening. It varies.
Catholics have multiple times for mass during the day. There’s usually some earlier ones, and then some later in the afternoon.
Most of the churches I’ve been to (and I’ve been to upwards of 16 in the past 18 years) have two services, sometimes around 9 and 11, sometimes 8:30 and 10, etc. A few have had three. Goodness gracious.
I’m not sure I’d say USUALLY. I never ran into such a thing until I lived in a large college town (where yes, there was something crazy like 5, 7 or 9.) Also ‘student suppers’ before and after some of those. I was just saying the other day, I’m not sure going to church taught me to love Jesus but it DID teach me to love chili!
I suspect the church Joyce goes too has multiple services too. But you fail to understand the mentality of the religiously brainwashed. Which I like to call the all or nothing Christians. You wake up go to the morning service then you go to Sunday school then you go to the late morning service then you go have lunch then you com back for afternoon bible study then you go to the late afternoon prayer meeting then you go to the evening service then you go home and have a late dinner before bed. Some churches even provide lunch and people spend the entire day at the church. Throw in Wednesday night services Deccan meetings, prayer meetings, and other absurdities and you can go to church EVERY DAY.
Joyce certainly strikes me as coming from an “all or nothing” Christian family. She was home schooled after all. I’m not trying to knock Christianity it has some very good teachings, but some people take the road that either all of the Bible is true or none of it is and since some of it is right they follow all of it blindly. Or rather they follow their particular minister’s views on what it all says literally.
The most harmful part of such an upbringing is that it creates an inability to understand how anyone else can live differently. Often you either end up a total slave to you upbringing or you reject it utterly to sometimes destructive ends. A few lucky people break away without breaking themselves and find their own path without leaving their family in ruins, but it’s hard to do since often families go to extreme means to ensure that their relatives won’t “burn in hell.” It’s a form of love and in some ways should be admired but it’s twisted and can leave deep emotional and psychological scars on individuals depending on the situation.
I think your projecting your own issues onto a comic strip character, I was home schooled and brought up in what you might call an “all or nothing” christian home, I go to church at 9:45 and I’d say Joyce is just an early riser who is passionate about her faith. I also think you may have some flawed views of Christianity, I’d be happy to discuss it with you if you wanted to email me.
Yeah, but this is Joyce, she is a deep end Fundie.
My current church has four services, so even if you don’t get up until early afternoon you can still catch the 6:30 service. My last church only had one service, but it was Friday night.
Joyce, that’s not Dotty.
Yeah. Dorothy agreed to go to church because she’s got a guilty conscious. Billie gets hangovers not guilt trips.
this week, joyce is trying to wake up billie for church. NEXT week it’s dorothy’s turn.
Go shove your beliefs down someone else’s throat. I’m sleeping.
Do it again and I’ll rip your face off.
“First I will carefully and calmly explain my atheist humanist philosophy to Joyce. Then, I will murder her.”
I’m uncertain that Billie is an atheist.
That was a hypothetical reaction to Joyce waking me up for church. We already know what Billie would do.
I pretty much assume Billie is a Scientologist.
Is there a First Church of Jack Daniels?
They time-share the same building as the Church of Fonzie.
Yep. It’s called AA…
Don’t know… but I’m pretty sure the use of real wine in communion is real high on her list of reasons to choose which church to go to.
You mean “Do it again and I’ll rip your FAAAAAAAAAAAAACE off.”
Remember who’s saying this! 🙂
More like:
Billie: “Do that again and I’ll rip your face off!”
Joyce: “But, church–”
Bille: “FAAACE!”
Do that again and rip off your skullcap.
…..maybe
I thought it was Dorothy who signed up for church duty? O.o
Doesn’t mean she has to go it alone. Joyce is being considerate.
I think…
I think she just naturally assumes that everyone goes to church on sundays unless told otherwise. The same church at the same time no less. She saw that poor Billie had forgotten to set her alarm and decided to do the neighborly thing and lend a helping hand.
Gotta give Billie some credit, she probably has a more subdued reaction here than I would in a similar situation.
A lack of sleep with do that to you. Fact: If nobody got enough sleep their would be world peace… Well, World Crankiness.
I dunno, depending on how high those bunk beds are, she may have just killed Joyce.
When she finally wakes up she’ll see what she’s done and shrug.
She’s used to her antics. Clearly Joyce will have to step up her game by waking her up another way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jUaufp2cXeg
You know what to do, Willis. You know what to do.
Maybe Joyce already copped a feel, did you ever think of that? 😀
😀 I’ll be in my… wait, can’t touch myself, Ceiling Joyce will eat me. D:
Ceiling Joyce is CLEARLY peeking through a hole in a WALL, not a ceiling. My faith is destroyed.
Either way, HER STARE IS CREEPY. SHE’S LOOKING INTO MY SOUL.
That’s because the white from Joyce’s mouth is the gateway to Yog-Sothoth.
Joyce doesn’t want your soul — she wants your faaace.
AWESOME EDIT, DUDETTE!
It’s too early. I myself am not quite awake enough to separate people’s bones from their flesh at that time of day.
and then the comic ends there.
Damn straight, Billie. For my church we never had to get up before 10:00.
Seven AM on a Sunday can go straight to hell, and I’ll gladly go with it if it means another 3 hours of sleep.
Showing more restraint than I would.
I don’t know if I could have dealt with Joyce’s face in panel 2.
I’m getting “Osaka wielding a knife” vibes from her.
You mean LIKE THIS?
It’s like her mouth is a giant, white void that’s going to swallow me…
I went to a church that had saturday afternoon services. 4:30-5:45(ish), then partying all night and sleeping in the next day…it was glorious.
Our church had a Saturday evening service and then two Sunday morning services. We often attended all three!
I was okay with it. The girls my age were cute.
Wow. Only time I ever went to all services each weekend was when I worked for the church.
Yeah the girls are probably the main reason to go to church as a teenager. Though now I’m picturing you as That Guy who went with a list of church-appropriate pickup lines to try out on all the girls, Willis.
“You must be a pillar of salt ’cause I want a Lot to be with you.”
“Good thing I have practise repenting!”
“I got a king-side king James here, wanna get biblical?”
“I’m praying for you, not just in the concerned for your soul meaning.”
“Want to be the Eve to my Adam?”
Temple services were on Friday 7-9pm all year or Saturday10-12 during the fall, winter and spring any way my family only went for High holidays and maybe 4-5 other times A year for שַׁבָּת services the synagogue was a half an hour to 45 minute commute so it wasn’t always convenient to go every week. In college the Hillel offered services from 7-845pm, I didn’t go every week maybe once a month or once every two months and only if a friend happened to want to go services.
I went to a religiously-affiliated university.
Despite the official connection, the student body was not that much more religious than average, and featured about a typical level of religious diversity.
Thus, our church was an on-campus chapel that only had evening services; maybe three people who weren’t students went, and they knew they’d never get any students to a morning service.
I love that Billie isn’t even Joyce’s roommate.
Her roommate is probably likely to do worse.
One of the best parts of losing my religion has been sleeping until whenever I feel like on sunday. Which is sometimes like 2pm. And then I wake up and go get some lunch, but not Chik-Fil-A, because they’re not open, even though my brain has some pavlovian response that makes me only crave chicken sandwiches on the one day I can’t have them… …wait what were we talking about?
I bet one of the worst parts of it was getting a goofy 90s song stuck in your head whenever you brought it up 😛
“citing artistic differences, the band broke up in May”
Oh, a different goofy 90s song?
… If you like?
My co-worker and I usually work on the weekends, and we ALWAYS get cravings for Chik-fil-A on the Sundays we work together. We always laugh about it as well, but deep down my heart breaks a little each Sunday.
Billie’s face in panel 4 makes me wonder if she’s recently taken up meth.
Honestly, I didn’t think teeth could get THAT big.
She’s like Nosferatu extending her fangs, but instead of going for the jugular she melts your heart with a HUGE SMILE!
This is exactly how I would react.
I want that second panel as a poster.
My roommate last year did this to me. Once.
I literally punched him.
Later I explained I’m atheist and that it’s a terrible idea to wake me up before noon on a night where I didn’t sleep until 6 am.
That would have been my reaction exactly.
Isn’t the seventh day supposed to be when god rested? So ergo your suppose to rest, hence Joyce by waking Billie up are you are forcing her to commit blasphemy, not very christian like.
The seventh day is Saturday in America. Church is on Sunday mainly because the original church met on the first day of the week. This is why the weekend is Saturday (day of rest) and Sunday (day of worship to the point nothing else gets done).
The few Christian denominations who worship on Saturday (eg: 7th Day Bapists) do so because they believe that the Roman Catholics had no right to change it to Sunday.
Just throwing it out there.
And I thought Joyce couldn’t get any creepier than the last time she woke Billie up.
Ceiling Joyce is watching you sleep.
And also watches you masturbate. So, kiddies, before you sleep, check your ceiling because if you don’t, the one with Triangle Smile shall watch you…..FOREVER!!!*THUNDER AND LIGHTNING EFFECTS*
O///O I am never touching my junk again.
I will defy her ceiling catship by continuing to ‘mess with my business’.
Viva la Resistance!
She’s gonna haunt your nightmares, dude! Or bad-touch you!
I think many people on this site would enjoy Joyce bad-touching them.
A Joyce bad-touch is a fist to the kisser.
I’m not sure I’d enjoy this Bad Touch.
That’s if you’re lucky. A Joyce bad-touch might be a glass to the FAAAAAAAAAAAACE.
As bad as I get along with fundies, I find Joyce irresistible and cute as a box of kittens for some reason
Resistance is futile, you will be watched.
That’s okay, I like it when people watch.
Protip: It’s not masturbation if someone else is touching your junk.
Junk? I thought it was called “neat stuff” now.
Girls has neat stuff, we mere males have junk.
Ceiling Joyce sees you in your sleep. Ceiling Joyce sees you in your NIGHTMARES.
I’m never sleeping again either. I’ll be a platonic zombie.
Beware the Joyce, the one with the Triangle Smile.
That’s not nearly a triangle. I am disappointed.
Can I have the first panel at original size?
Already linked directly below the strip.
Just pick any size you like and fill it in solid black.
Old joke but “It’s Wakey!”
It’s been a while, so it counts as new.
Someone just had to make a scarier version of panel 2, don’t they?
Found one!
Damnit. It took me five minutes to stop laughing at that pic.
Funny how easily I turned Joyce from a regular if eccentric girl into some sort of Lovecraftian horror.
Hey, we’ve always known there was something different about her.
You turned her into that? WHY MAN WHY?!
Because the Joyce demands it. That and it’s kinda easy.
I woke up first thing and checked webcomics.
So I saw this before my morning coffee.
And this is literally the first thing I thought.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/joycpz.jpg/
I need to do either more or less meth.
Less, definitely less. Any more, and you’ll be smelling colors. Or dead. It’s a 50/50 shot.
Teh gigglez, I haz them.
Hahaha, excellent.
…Well see I would go to church and read the bible but a friend of mine already spoiled the ending for me so, run along now. -_-
That is quite possibly the best excuse for getting out of church I’ve ever heard.
To be humble, the fact my current gravatar looks like freaky friday between Sal and Mike probably helps.
I can’t stop staring at your avatar now. I want to see a Sal/Mike version of Freaky Friday so bad.
Someone needs to make this movie, seriously.
Your mom would, for a nickel
That Sal grav looks less of a Freaky Friday and more of the result of Sal and Mike doing the fusion dance.
Anyone else read that as “WALKY WALKY”?
As an argumentive atheist, I always have a half-dozen arguments on hand showing how religion makes you evil.
But this strip tops them all.
And that’s at least 40% of the reason I went agnostic.
Joyce breaks her spine in the fall. “Choosing your religion” refers to her crisis of faith in response. Eventually, Joyce gets a wheelchair and switches majors from Theology to Computer Science, putting her new skills to use as Amazi-girl’s support operative.
Hah! I see what you did there.
Heh, replace Billie with Joe…and Joyce’s clothes with one of his shirts. Comic changed FOREVER.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/joycpz.jpg/
It is done.
Excellent work.
Your av is looking at that link like it is a link of the worst kind.
I am seriously just so disgusted with this link, you don’t even know.
Man, that second panel would scar me for life if I woke up to see that. And I’m a Christian!
That is my usual reaction to everything… Work? Ugh. School? Ugh. My wife’s water broke? Uggghhh…
Perfect avatar for that comment.
DammiT!
I cleared my browser cache and cookies and now I can’t remember what address I used to sign up for gravatars. Was it this one, maybe?
I had a feeling this arc would start with this.
Second panel at original size:
CEILING JOYCE
IS WATCHING YOU MASTURBATE
I thought for a moment Joyce said Chrunch and I was like, “Oh, breakfast at church?” >.>
ORDER UP!
We already established Joyce is a “morning person,” didn’t we?
Pretty much my reaction.
Minus the accidental “attempted manslaughter” thing at the end, I mean.
Joyce has yet to discover the “late services” the evangelical churches in Bloomington hold, often with college students specifically in mind. 😀
late services are for heathens.
I’d appreciate a roommate who’d get me up at 7 for church. 8 o’clock church is quieter and going with a friends is fun ’cause you snark at the pastor. Also earlier services tend to be more classical than contemporary, at least in my circles. Better music, better companionship, all day to do something else.
Only question now is ECC or Sherwood Oaks, I assume it has to be one of the two.
Man, even my super-Catholic parents quit trying to wake my sisters and me up for Church. Not happening. Just…no. If someone tries at school…I don’t even know what would happen.
Wait………NO JOYCE DON’T GO TO CHURCH!! NOOO!!!!!!! Ryan might be there!! Remember he said the part about him being a son of a pastor is true!
Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. At this point I would theorise about the implications that this has with relation to the ‘choosing my religion’ title of this series of strips, but I worry that I would be correct, and I don’t like spoilers.
I’m just guessing >< the mere thought popped in my head while going on a soda run lol. Thankfully nor for sprite XD
Could be worst. The mass could be… at seven a clock… yes I actually have suffered that. Still the worst for me is the new years one even if it’s a noon, because it’s just inescapable as that date use to be my grandfather’s birthday.
One of friends leaves in the very same street as two jehova witnesses churches. And both groups seem to think sunday from 7:00 to 9:00 AM are the very best posible times to proselitise… I honestly don’t know if they think half asleep people is easer to convince or just have no sense of self-preservation…
I wish the local churches still proselitised on my street. Messing with them was the most fun I’ve ever had.
Billie’s reaction is similar to what I imagine my own would be if someone tried to wake me up on Sunday morning. The only way I’m getting up before noon on a weekend is if I have to work or if the building is on fire or something. I’m certainly not getting up to go to church, as I’m an atheist.
If her eyes were red instead of blue, that second panel would have completely been the thing of nightmares.
So is Joyce just showing up in everyone’s room trying to get everyone to go to church with her?
Is this what you had in mind?
Or this?
Or this?
Now that I’ve breathed life into your nightmares, the answer to your question is that probably she wouldn’t dare venture into the bedroom of any male characters at this point, but otherwise it seems likely (assuming that the position of the feet in the last panel was exaggerated, since the only way you’re going to get that rotational velocity and the space to rotate in is if that shove was very, very hard and likely to cause serious injury).
And my pants are now full. Thanks for that. o_O
Hehe, although I gotta say, number 1 came off the most creepy.
Second Panel screams “YOUR BLOOD WILL SATISFY THE VOICES, FOOLISH MORTAL!”
So you’re saying Joyce is a slave to Armok? Or maybe a follower of Khorne?
Either way, blood for the blood god!!
Am I the only one who saw panel 2 and immediately thought of this scene from Misery? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2xMgbeku-0
Uhm… Who let Joyce into Billie’s dorm anyway? Sal typically isn’t around, and isn’t the sort who’d let Joyce barge in.
Admittedly, Sal does leave the window unlocked, but I don’t see Joyce going to that kind of length to wake Billie.
Here.
They share a bathroom, so Joyce probably just went through that.
Second panel is her face when she’s banging dudes missionary with a strapon.
HEADCANON.
i had church at 11:30am everyday – though there were earlier masses
It was pretty much packed every week!
this brings on flashbacks…
As of a good while ago I always read strips with Dorothy in them twice. Once normally, and the second time in which I imagine Dorothy with Gilbert Gottfrieds voice. I don’t know why I started doing this but it’s hilarious. Anyways this one was actually kind of terrifying to imagine that way.
…Except Dorothy isn’t in this strip.
Oh whoops, sorry I meant Joyce. I always get their names mixed up
This is Joyce in 35 years… http://i.imgur.com/S5d4D.jpg
choosing my religion huh
wilis, you better not take the one well-adjusted atheist character in comics and make her a christian just from ONE church visit.
I am an atheist who was raised roman catholic. i had to attend church every sunday until i moved out of the house at 18. after a two-year existential crises i became an atheist at 13, and none of the intervening five years of church visits changed my mind.
please, i’m begging you. she should stick with her own convictions and opinions, please let her have a stronger will then to be conviced to change her entire philosophy after an hour at a religious ceremony
My response to anyone who tried to do that would be a knuckle sandwich.
Brainwashing + Brain Damage = things could get ugly