Naw. She remembered the Pastor’s Son bit, and I doubt she’d disbelieve her friends on that being the guy who dun it. Willis seems to be suggesting that she’s nervous around men in general now, and she already didn’t like Joe much.
Well, it’s fairly common – triggers can come up for lesser things. Hell, after my abusive relationship, the movie Watchmen was kind of triggering because my ex sounded like Dr. Manhatten when upset. I would freak out a little if there was a guy who even sort of looked like him in my general vicinity.
That would be amazing. 100 comics later, and we get a cut back to Becky, phone to her ear and looking at her watch (or a clock, I guess? do people even know what wristwatches are anymore?). and we all completely forgot about her until that moment.
I have one of the old Tokyoflash Active Reactor watches (one of these http://www.tokyoflash.com/en/watch_museum/radioactive/activereactor/ ), and I wear it when I remember. Mainly because it’s awesome in a completely ridiculous and admittedly somewhat tacky way, and once you know how to tell time on it you can pretty much do it instantly so it’s still faster than fishing my phone out of my pocket, although even with that it’s still more of a style thing than anything. Pretty sure that’s how it is for almost any watch worn nowadays, even normal ones.
I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even see ‘dude’ as a gender-based nominal. It’s either this or ‘y’all’ and I’m still in denial about being from Texas.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m from Chicago and I say “y’all” all the time. “Course, I picked it up while living in Arkansas, but that was like a decade ago and I still say it.
That’s probably because English BADLY needs a “you plural” and doesn’t have one. Hence the parallel development of “yunz” as a “you plural” in Pittsburgh, for example.
Hell, I say y’all often enough and the only states I’ve been to (let alone lived in) are (South) Florida, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and California. ^O__o^
I’ve lived in New Jersey for as long as I can remember and I use y’all regularly.
I’m the only one of my friends that does it. We don’t know where I picked it up.
But yeah. “Dude” is effectively gender-neutral to me.
One of my best friends calls everyone girl, but he does drag shows and competitions when he’s not working at beauty school, so I think it’s more out of habit than anything else.
We have three teenage girls here. They all call each other “dude.”
It is a matter of some bemusement to me, because when/where I grew up, “dude” was an insult that was likely to start a fight. Young men in those days referred to each other as “pal,” “buddy” or “you asshole.”
Aaaaaand Joyce has gone from Little Miss Innocent to Little Miss Powder Keg. Given what happened not twenty-four hours before (in-universe), I can’t say I blame her, but still. Poor Joe that he’s the one that it gets taken out on (instead of on Ryan, who deserves it infinitely more).
Well, Joe may not deserve it, but it is an awful time to act douchey. Not that it’s his fault – he didn’t know. But right now is probably the worst time for him to have said what he said.
(dramatic voice) …and now with a healthy fear of men and no where else turn all the girl/girl shippers in the community wait with bated breath for whats to come
Please let Joe, Ethan or Walky redeem Joyce’s opinion of/trust in boys. It’s truly horrible how close a couple bad experiences almost ruined the gender for me. Without the nice boys I know, they might’ve.
I say Mike is the best choice. Overall damaging, but in the end you know he is right and you realize your fault. Although I can be fearfully biased on fictional dilemmas.
Mike would be willing to point out that she is being unfair to Joe. Since we have seen that Joyce is willing to admit when she is wrong that might be good for her.
On the other hand Mike might willingly make it worse. Any advances from him would probably wreck the poor girl.
And we have character development! Not that there hasn’t been any before but this is significant enough to note since two characters within three panels are experiencing it. Also Joyce please talk this out it extremely bad to hold things in because you then flip out at a poor trainee who had nothing to do with @$$ hole screwing you over and poor trainee begins to…. and we need not go any further. point is Joyce talking to people helps sometimes, not all the time because people suck.
I’m pretty sure he’s just using it as an emphasizer, as many use the term “God” (which can be swapped in for “Dude” without changing the sentence’s meaning, by my interpretation).
Ya know, when somebody says, “The guys here are just trying to get into my pants,” usually it’s not wise to walk up and say, “if you don’t want us hitting on you, you shouldn’t bring your vagina with you.”
You’d think Joe would have considered the drama of his first week in college before he reaffirmed that he has only one thing on his mind. The failed date with Joyce, the controversy with Roz, and lessons Leslie has directed at him specifically have been no cause for introspection it seems.
Joyce hit him in the face, and had him hit in the face repeatedly. Someone does that to me, and I’ll go out of my way to piss them off whenever possible in the future. After the way she acted to Joe, his behavior here is perfectly reasonable. It just comes at the worst possible time due to Joyce’s other experiences.
If someone hit me in the face, I would go out of my way to avoid them, especially in any circumstance that might provoke them to hit me more! Admittedly, my personality is much more “Dina” than “Joe.”
Joe *liked* the controversy with Roz. And is self-assured enough not to be bothered by Leslie’s (or anyone else’s) contrary opinions. The only situation that was problematic for him was the failed date, and he already did his introspection on that and learned his lesson: the lesson that Joyce is Ms. Crazy McCrazypants.
So it’s not that he doesn’t think about things. He just draws different conclusions about them than you do.
This. I agree with this so hard. Essentially, Joe is still placing the “blame” for a man’s rude behavior to women on the women just because they’re women.
Now I am envisioning Walky (Shinji) as he munches on McNuggets over a comatose Dotty while a giant Joyce head floats in a sea of BBQ sauce proclaiming “I’m so fucked up.”
I’m guessing that Becky is Amazi-Girl. Becky is Joyce’s oldest friend followed her to college and adopted the Amazi-Girl persona to protect her. Becky knows about the incident at the party, but can’t ask about it directly so she’s calling to “just see how things are”.
Of course, now that David has said that it’s a good prediction, we know for certain that it is 100% wrong. Because a writer would never verify the correct guessers before it’s revealed. He wouldn’t even acknowledge it if it was correct, because that would draw more attention to it. So clearly, the fact that David says it could be Becky guarantees that it is not her.
This would be a prime time for the ass of a guy who cause all of this to come back. In the mood Joyce is currently in she’d probably need no help taking care of him lol
In all seriousness though I feel kinda sorry for Joe. He’s in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’m also kinda hoping that the ass gets whats coming to him. I can’t help that really, as I am an older brother. If I found out some guy tried something similar on my younger sister I’d be there in a flash hunting down the guy.
It appears that Joyce is learning the hard way that ‘things can’t be the way they were’. She is afraid and angry, and thats not going to change overnight. Looked to me like Joe was actally concerned in the last panel. I am interested to see where this goes.
I think he meant that it’s dangerous that people assume that people just ‘become’ lesbian because of bad experiences with men, probably in favour of the ‘everyone is born lesbian/gay/bisexual/heterosexual/etc.’ theory. Which is wrong, because sometimes people do become lesbian because of bad experiences with men. Sexuality (particularly for women) isn’t fixed or absolute to begin with. There is no reason to assume that psychology could not influence sexual orientation just as much as biology (or, in fact, that psychology can’t influence biology and so affect sexual orientation through biological change).
Except it’s also off-base to completely discredit the ‘born lgbt’ theory…
And why is it that “particularly women” do not have a fixed sexuality? Why can’t men experience that same fluid sexual preference, too? I’m not asking because I think you’re claiming that men CAN’T, I’m just wondering, why specifically women?
I think this guy needs to read some Sociological publications.
Sexuality can be fluid in terms of preferences, but that’s only when you let go of the binary (or trinary) ideas of orientation. It’s not a tick-box. Liken it more to a gradient line with infinite variability (I dunno, 30-bit colour?).
With that, someone can appear to “change orientation,” but more likely what’s happening is they’re either expressing a less explored part of their gradient, or they’re acting. Plenty of evidence puts more likeliness rough born positioning of gender and sexuality, than a completely psychological shaping through growth.
To subscribe to the drivel that Zab is proposing is to subscribe to the idea of “this show will make my kid gay!” That’s fear of the unknown, folks.
What do you mean ‘drivel’? Perhaps i should clarify that when I said ‘become lesbian’ I meant ‘change their self-identification to lesbian’, since that’s the only meaningful change that can occur, as sexuality is a ‘gradient’. That’s the only part I can think of that might have been questionable.
People are putting words in my mouth. I never said that the idea that people are ‘born’ gay should be completely discredited. There is no evidence of it, and no evidence otherwise. (The ‘evidence’ that Tucker refers to is probably the pheremone experiments that have been conducted, which show a biological difference, but as I stated before, psychology can influence biology [particularly neurology], so this doesn’t really prove anything beyond the fact that sexual orientation probably tends to be long-term.) There is definitely no ‘completely psychological shaping through growth’. It seems most likely, to me, that people are born with a particular ‘gradient’ of sexual attraction, and it can then be tweaked by psychology throughout the person’s life. I have no proof of this, and would never claim that this is necessarily the case. It’s not necessary for my argument; although I suppose that because of my lack of distinction between ‘actual’ sexual orientation and the ‘active’ sexual orientation – the part of the person’s sexual orientation spectrum that they act on (e.g. who they date, etc.) – it may have been misinterpreted. What I meant is that women who have had bad experiences with men (often physical or sexual abuse) sometimes switch to dating women, and can continue to pursue relationships with women (or a woman) for the rest of their lives. Perhaps they are simply ‘expressing a less explored part of their gradient’, but the desire to express that part of their gradient comes from a psychologically significant event. This isn’t speculation, and I’m not claiming that it is necessarily anything more than a rare exception to the rule, but I know of people who have specifically stated that this is what happened to them. Apart from the ‘rest of their lives’ part.
@Kujazlilmage See Leorale’s post 12-Jan-2012 15:10. I’ve never actually seen the studies that indicate that women’s sexuality is more fluid, but I’ve seen them referred to constantly, so I’m just going along with it. I suppose that theoretically that’s another part of my post that was ‘drivel’.
There are lots of interesting scientific studies that show that women’s sexuality can change over time, whereas men’s sexuality remains pretty fixed. Those studies state that a man will probably retain his gender preference all his life, so if he’s gay he’ll stay gay, if he’s bi he’ll stay bi, if he’s straight he’ll stay straight. A woman might find herself attracted to people she didn’t expect to, in either direction: for example, a woman might be in a perfectly valid, loving lesbian relationship, and then find herself attracted to a man. Or she might prefer guys all through her teenage years but then find herself attracted to only women for the next forty years. Surprise!
This does not mean that women’s orientations are less valid or real, nor does it mean that all lesbians are just going through some kind of bad phase, it just means that, for some women, their orientation may change over time, in either direction.
I think Brendan was referring to the notion that a dick could cause that switch in a woman’s orientation. This leads to the very harmful and false notion that some creepy men have, that they could “fix” a lesbian if only she’d give their mighty dick a chance. Or, the idea that women only become gay because of a traumatic experience with men, which leads to the false idea that all lesbian relationships stem from unresolved trauma, and are therefore bad and scary. Ok this is long. Just go read/listen to Dan Savage for a while.
My mom was in boot camp for the army and was raped in the showers and left for dead, and to this day she still has issues over it, though it was well over 30 years ago. It takes a while, and you have to want to, but it seems you can come to terms with it and learn to move on and trust again, though it doesn’t take much to break that trust.
Joyce can learn, too, if she has enough time to heal.
Yeah, Joyce is rather on edge, understandably so. Joe isn’t the guy to take it out on though. She should just go to the police and report on the bastard that roofied her already.
On the subject of that guy; Joe may be rather insensitive towards women, but I’ve got the strong feeling that if he ever found out what happened to Joyce he’d beat the crap out of the jerkass preacher’s son.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize Joe wasn’t making a bizarrely out-of-nowhere confession that Joyce had some impact on his emotions–he is referring to the literal touch of her fists on his face.
“Touched” in terms of emotions usually means heartwarming. None of Joe’s contact with Joyce should be considered heartwarming by him unless it turns out Joe is a masochist. That’s why I’m not fond of that interpretation. There is no reason for Joe to feel anything positive about Joyce at this point.
Because of your comment, I decided to refer to that strip again. So I hit the random button, and it landed me right on them walking into the restaurant together.
y’know………….this whole “Joe is bad/Joyce is good” thingee is REALLY a buncha crap! And pretty sexist to boot cause I damn sure know if the gender roles were reversed for the characters, then y’all would all be SCREAMING for Joe in handcuffs for hitting her.
you NEVER have a reason to put your hands on someone unless they have done it first………………….so show me the panel were Joe actually touched Joyce……………
or all y’all telling me it’s ok to hit someone just because of what they say or think or make you feel……………or better yet, it’s only ok if a female assaults a male, right?
That’s a difficult one for me. My Great Depression/WW2-generation father raised me understanding that there were almost no circumstances when it was permissible to strike a woman, even if the woman strikes you first. And I’ve lived it; my first wife came out of nowhere with a mean right once and broke my nose, and I walked away from her.
So maybe I’m not the best person to comment on modern attitudes. But I believe there is a huge difference. Men are typically larger and stronger than women; it is always wrong for a larger and stronger person to abuse a smaller, weaker person, sex notwithstanding.
So as to your specific points: No, it’s not OK to hit someone unless they have initiated the action. I’ve never started a fight but I sure as hell have finished a few. No, it’s not OK to hit someone because of what they say or think. And no, it’s not OK for a woman to assault a man.
To talk about equality is to live equality. You can’t have have true equality if you hide behind “oh wait, but I’m a girl!” I think the big question is: in this time where society is generally growing on the idea of general equality, why are people still resorting to gender rolls to manipulate their positioning?
I don’t see where affirmative action and finishing a fight you start are mutually exclusive. I don’t think people need to be hitting eachother period, but it is a human tendency. If a man punches me, I punch him back. If you profess equal rights, you better expect equal returns. So, you know, don’t start fights?
If a person is smaller and weaker than you, there is less need to respond with physical violence even to physical threats or actual violence, and the same amount of force may become disproportionate.
While the important part is not “female vs male” but “smaller and weaker vs larger and stronger”, the two things kinda go together.
On average, of course, not universally.
I (hope that I) wouldn’t react to a man differently than to a woman, but I would definitely react differently to a person twice my size than to a person half my size. The former group includes more men, the latter group more women.
Make sense?
It is always wrong for anybody to abuse anybody. It is easier for a larger, stronger person to abuse a smaller, weaker person.
And no, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with walking away from your ex-wife who attacked you without fighting back. Unless the person is continuing to attack you and you need to stop them from doing so, that’s probably the best thing to do both ethically and legally.
That said, I wouldn’t have blamed you if you had hit back, either. It’s hard to do the best thing sometimes.
And neither part of that has anything to do with the sex of either person.
The point is, I would have blamed me if I had hit her back. I was raised with a few unshakable rules that stuck with me through life, and “never strike a woman” was one of them. I suppose I could overcome that if at risk of life or permanent injury, but that’s probably what it would take.
Overcome your sexually discriminatory psychological conditioning! Go, beat up every woman you can find! Report back when you get out of gaol/hospital. If dead, do not report back. I don’t want to have to deal with a zombie apocalypse.
Joyce hates Joe because she thinks premarital hanky-panky is immoral. She is enforcing her own ethics on him and when he falls short (not because he is a bad person, per se, but because he has a different ethic) she condemns him.
There are other factors that make her actions understandable and even forgivable, but at the heart she is in the wrong.
Isn’t that what the legal system always does? Of course, then you get into the definition of ‘morally right’ and ‘morally wrong’. Is it better to decide what is right based on your own ethical principles, without regard to the mainstream view (this being the only opportunity for social change), or is it better to trust the voice of the many over the voice of the one, and conform to popular opinion? And if you’ve chosen the former, do you enforce it if it is against the ethical principles of wider society? If the latter, do you enforce it if it seems wrong by your own standards? Do these answers change if one is in law enforcement or the military?
But yes, Joyce is wrong. I’m sure that even by her own moral code, violence wasn’t really the best option.
Well, what she said to Joe was certainly unjustified, but given what she’s going through it’s a completely understandable reaction.
Sheltered, home-schooled girl comes to college hoping to find her true love. First date, it’s with Joe, who wants sex. Second ‘date,’ the nice, Bible-loving guy turns out to be a date rapist. So, no, Joe probably didn’t deserve that, but I’d hardly blame Joyce for this reaction.
No, she’s on edge around males now after what happened, though she’s probably not aware of it. It was noticeable when she was standing next to the guy in the elevator.
So, some people really think the last panel is referring to when she punched him? It seems pretty obvious to me that he has some kind of feelings toward her. Are we forgetting his momentary speechlessness when she showed up in the yellow dress for their date? I think he fell back on his old habits in that date, which caused it to crash and burn, and now he might have a bit of regret somewhere deep down.
Also, I do think that Joe would be disgusted by Ryan’s actions at the party too. Sure, Joe is totally out there to get his fair share of ass, but I just have this feeling that he would draw the line at drugging someone. He likes to appear like the macho player, but when compared to Ryan, I think he would come out looking a lot better.
(And yes, I do think he would like to kick Ryan’s ass if he found out what happened at the party.)
Well yes. There’s a big difference between interested in sex over a long-lasting relationship (Although the two aren’t mutually exclusive) and rape. One is a perfectly valid life choice; the other is a crime.
Perfectly valid choice, yes. Perfectly valid life choice, sure, but impracticable. Not that I’m familiar with it, but I imagine that it would get more difficult to perpetuate the sex-only approach as one gets older. In theory, this might sometimes be the reason that people who used to utilise the sex-only approach sometimes go through, or transition to, an ‘it’s time to settle down’ phase – because that’s the only way they’re going to continue having sex. Note the two layers of ‘sometimes’ there – I’m certainly not suggesting that this is true of all people who have made this perfectly valid life choice.
Given his expression and irritation at her unfocused outburst, I think the only way to interpret his “you touched -me-” is as “With your fists, in my face”. I cannot imagine that given her reaction to him there, even if he -was- honestly smitten with her, that his mind would be on any positive feelings he has for her. So yes, I do think that his comment there is about her assault on him. He is pretty unambiguously annoyed here.
It’s a tragedy, what’s happening to Joyce. We haven’t quite crossed the Despair Event Horizon yet, but this is a patented case of Break the Cutie in action. My bet is that Joyce will Take a Level in Badass before all is said and done.
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Panel four: That FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
she seems a little on edge
“A little”?
She might think Joe was the one who drugged her.
Naw. She remembered the Pastor’s Son bit, and I doubt she’d disbelieve her friends on that being the guy who dun it. Willis seems to be suggesting that she’s nervous around men in general now, and she already didn’t like Joe much.
Well, it’s fairly common – triggers can come up for lesser things. Hell, after my abusive relationship, the movie Watchmen was kind of triggering because my ex sounded like Dr. Manhatten when upset. I would freak out a little if there was a guy who even sort of looked like him in my general vicinity.
Hope she remembers Becky and doesn’t leave her on the line for four hours.
That would be like 100 comics!
To be fair, Becky might hang up and call Joyce back at some point.
That would be amazing. 100 comics later, and we get a cut back to Becky, phone to her ear and looking at her watch (or a clock, I guess? do people even know what wristwatches are anymore?). and we all completely forgot about her until that moment.
It would have been amazing, but now, because of YOU, we will all remember it and it wont be a surprise.
I still wear a wristwatch. It’s more convenient than my phone.
agreed. I hate fishing around in my pocket for a phone just for the time… things get *lost* in that pocket.
That’s why I got myself a G-Shock, not only is it easier to find out what time it is, I can even use it during aquarobics.
I have one of the old Tokyoflash Active Reactor watches (one of these http://www.tokyoflash.com/en/watch_museum/radioactive/activereactor/ ), and I wear it when I remember. Mainly because it’s awesome in a completely ridiculous and admittedly somewhat tacky way, and once you know how to tell time on it you can pretty much do it instantly so it’s still faster than fishing my phone out of my pocket, although even with that it’s still more of a style thing than anything. Pretty sure that’s how it is for almost any watch worn nowadays, even normal ones.
So much for that MRS degree.
I remember a friend’s mom telling me that she sent him to college to get an MRS and not a PhD.
It took me like ten minutes before I figured out what she was talking about.
It’s been changed to a MS degree.
MS degrees always come with BS degrees.
Bachelor of Science? 😛
Not true. You can get an MS after having a BA.
Okay, but you got to make some major changes.
Joe’s anger and hurt at that suggestion are kind of heartwarming, I think.
Oh, your just sayin that cus of your name. :}D
Touche.
yikes, somebody has some newfound issues to work out…
Will Sarah relate better with this new Joyce or will she want the old one back?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeWantOurJerkBack
Except replace “Jerk” with “Joyce”.
Yes that is pretty much the trope I was thinking of when I made that comment.
…except that the trope is reversed.
Glad to see I’m not the only one who absentmindedly refers to girls as “Dude” sometimes.
I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even see ‘dude’ as a gender-based nominal. It’s either this or ‘y’all’ and I’m still in denial about being from Texas.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m from Chicago and I say “y’all” all the time. “Course, I picked it up while living in Arkansas, but that was like a decade ago and I still say it.
That’s probably because English BADLY needs a “you plural” and doesn’t have one. Hence the parallel development of “yunz” as a “you plural” in Pittsburgh, for example.
Gah no Pittsburghese…
Hell, I say y’all often enough and the only states I’ve been to (let alone lived in) are (South) Florida, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and California. ^O__o^
I’ve lived in New Jersey for as long as I can remember and I use y’all regularly.
I’m the only one of my friends that does it. We don’t know where I picked it up.
But yeah. “Dude” is effectively gender-neutral to me.
I’m a girl and I call everyone dude, or man.
I’m a guy and I call everyone sister or girlfriend.
Dear lord that would be hilarious!
One of my best friends calls everyone girl, but he does drag shows and competitions when he’s not working at beauty school, so I think it’s more out of habit than anything else.
I’m Henry the VIII I am.
I like to call everyone “son.” Especially if they are older than me.
We have three teenage girls here. They all call each other “dude.”
It is a matter of some bemusement to me, because when/where I grew up, “dude” was an insult that was likely to start a fight. Young men in those days referred to each other as “pal,” “buddy” or “you asshole.”
Ah, my father remembers those times. He calls them “The Renaissance”.
I actually feel really sorry for Joe.
I think it’s seeing the white of his eyes that does it.
I think it’s him talking quietly to himself at the end.
I think it’s the way he didn’t completely deserve that. He didn’t know, and he wouldn’t have said that if he had.
i think it’s the fact that joyce is clearly seeing him as a rapist in his own right.
…Joyce with PTSD? Down-to-earth, irreversible, non-goofy PTSD?
Well… that… should be a change of pace.
Damn you Cerebus!
I should have known Willis could only resist that duck’s sweet siren song for so long…
Hey, that aardvark had progressively enough on his plate without being damned as well.
Oh wait…
How exactly did she get PTSD from being told what happened since she doesn’t actually remember shizzle?
The human mind is a complex thing.
It was still way traumatic.
Freudian theory that just because a memory s forgotten or repressed, your mind still processes it, and it still manifests itself in your behavior.
Odd and interesting to see psychological inertia in a comic.
Aaaaaand Joyce has gone from Little Miss Innocent to Little Miss Powder Keg. Given what happened not twenty-four hours before (in-universe), I can’t say I blame her, but still. Poor Joe that he’s the one that it gets taken out on (instead of on Ryan, who deserves it infinitely more).
Well by the predictions on the last comic, it turned out alot better.
Well, Joe may not deserve it, but it is an awful time to act douchey. Not that it’s his fault – he didn’t know. But right now is probably the worst time for him to have said what he said.
Indeed. A bad case of “wrong place, wrong time.”
But at least he didn’t get glassed in the FAAAAAAAAACE.
And this is where Joe, overcome with care and worry for the out of character Joyce runs after her to help her get through this trauma.
With his penis.
unsurprisingly joyce seems to be on the war path.
(dramatic voice) …and now with a healthy fear of men and no where else turn all the girl/girl shippers in the community wait with bated breath for whats to come
on an unrelated note, who is that? <—-
New Gravatars I take it? 😀
OMFG! YES I HAVE DINA NOW! 😀
*sigh* i already miss congress robin
And I now have Amber. 😀
I GOT IT! maybe mystery girl is amazi-girl, thats why no one could figure out who she is
What gravitar do I have?
What about now?
lots of brassieres!
That’s Sierra.
I was thinking less along the lines of lickety lesbians and more The Tuesday Blade.
Please let Joe, Ethan or Walky redeem Joyce’s opinion of/trust in boys. It’s truly horrible how close a couple bad experiences almost ruined the gender for me. Without the nice boys I know, they might’ve.
prolly better to be joe or walky cuz falling in love with a gay guy probly isnt as therapeutic as u might think
Who said anything about that?
I say Mike is the best choice. Overall damaging, but in the end you know he is right and you realize your fault. Although I can be fearfully biased on fictional dilemmas.
thats not a bad idea, out of all the guys in the comic hes the only one who’s actively defended her.
granted she wasn’t in any danger and technically he didn’t really do it cuz it was the right thing to do… but still though
Mike would be willing to point out that she is being unfair to Joe. Since we have seen that Joyce is willing to admit when she is wrong that might be good for her.
On the other hand Mike might willingly make it worse. Any advances from him would probably wreck the poor girl.
Yeah, I seriously don’t want Mike to be a therapist, here.
And we have character development! Not that there hasn’t been any before but this is significant enough to note since two characters within three panels are experiencing it. Also Joyce please talk this out it extremely bad to hold things in because you then flip out at a poor trainee who had nothing to do with @$$ hole screwing you over and poor trainee begins to…. and we need not go any further. point is Joyce talking to people helps sometimes, not all the time because people suck.
I don’t recall any @$$hole screwing taking place….
Joe, you can’t call Joyce a dude. The proper term should be dudette.
I’m pretty sure he’s just using it as an emphasizer, as many use the term “God” (which can be swapped in for “Dude” without changing the sentence’s meaning, by my interpretation).
It’s a secular non-sexual expletive!
Oh my Dude. Dude Damn you.
……Dude Damn you, I’m going to start doing this now.
I can’t believe this. DUDE!
Our Dude, who art in Dudedom, Hollowed by Dude’s name, Dude’s Kingdom Come, Dude’s will be done on earth as it is in Dudedom.
But does He Abide?
Then Walky comes in and starts singing, “YOU’VE GOT THE TOUCH! YOU’VE GOT THE POOOOOOWEEEERRRRR YEAAAAH!”
I don’t think Walky is a Transformers fan.
Well SOMEONE has to, the only Transformers fan we know is having his sad moment right now.
Recalling all the times he got punched in the FAAAAAACCE!
on their date 😛
Ya know, when somebody says, “The guys here are just trying to get into my pants,” usually it’s not wise to walk up and say, “if you don’t want us hitting on you, you shouldn’t bring your vagina with you.”
You’d think Joe would have considered the drama of his first week in college before he reaffirmed that he has only one thing on his mind. The failed date with Joyce, the controversy with Roz, and lessons Leslie has directed at him specifically have been no cause for introspection it seems.
Well, he saw an opening, and he put something in it.
Bada-ding!
Joyce hit him in the face, and had him hit in the face repeatedly. Someone does that to me, and I’ll go out of my way to piss them off whenever possible in the future. After the way she acted to Joe, his behavior here is perfectly reasonable. It just comes at the worst possible time due to Joyce’s other experiences.
If someone hit me in the face, I would go out of my way to avoid them, especially in any circumstance that might provoke them to hit me more! Admittedly, my personality is much more “Dina” than “Joe.”
Joe is severely allergic to introspection. He’s avoided it since being hospitalized for Important-Lesson-induced anaphylaxis when he was eight.
Joe *liked* the controversy with Roz. And is self-assured enough not to be bothered by Leslie’s (or anyone else’s) contrary opinions. The only situation that was problematic for him was the failed date, and he already did his introspection on that and learned his lesson: the lesson that Joyce is Ms. Crazy McCrazypants.
So it’s not that he doesn’t think about things. He just draws different conclusions about them than you do.
This. I agree with this so hard. Essentially, Joe is still placing the “blame” for a man’s rude behavior to women on the women just because they’re women.
Damn, first his friend and now his first date. Joe’s going through a tough time now.
From the looks of it, my guess is that Joyce will be in tears within the next two strips, I think I see some lip quiver. Poor Joyce
The next few strips will be Evangelion-style still frames, aka, cut-and-paste panels, with Joyce sitting in a dark room, talking.
Now I am envisioning Walky (Shinji) as he munches on McNuggets over a comatose Dotty while a giant Joyce head floats in a sea of BBQ sauce proclaiming “I’m so fucked up.”
Baka Walky.
Plasma, you…
THAT’S BRILLIANT! And Joe (Touji) gets munched on by a Monkey Master piloted by Walky!
so I guess Galasso is Gendo?
Galasso – 50 IQ points = Gendo.
No. Walky’s Mom = Gendo
Almost; Walky’s mum + Mike = Gendo
I…hope he’s talking about her fist. Or the fact that she’s colored his opinions somehow.
This strip strip brought to you by men.
MEN: We don’t know what what we did!
I’m guessing that Becky is Amazi-Girl. Becky is Joyce’s oldest friend followed her to college and adopted the Amazi-Girl persona to protect her. Becky knows about the incident at the party, but can’t ask about it directly so she’s calling to “just see how things are”.
are… are you serious?
Naw, that’s a good guess. That’s totally how I roll.
I was actually thinking that guess would be amazing if this were a novel. Genuinely well thought out from a theoretical perspective.
Yes. If only this were a novel.
It’s Walky! should be a novel…
…I should take more writing courses.
Dude, I want to be a writer! Maybe I could work out a deal somehow… doubt I could make it any good, but it would be pretty cool if it worked.
Of course, now that David has said that it’s a good prediction, we know for certain that it is 100% wrong. Because a writer would never verify the correct guessers before it’s revealed. He wouldn’t even acknowledge it if it was correct, because that would draw more attention to it. So clearly, the fact that David says it could be Becky guarantees that it is not her.
That’s just what Willis WANTS you to think!
Hint: Mike came from somewhere.
Your mom?
You have no clue how bad I wanna ruin the mystery for you.
This would be a prime time for the ass of a guy who cause all of this to come back. In the mood Joyce is currently in she’d probably need no help taking care of him lol
In all seriousness though I feel kinda sorry for Joe. He’s in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’m also kinda hoping that the ass gets whats coming to him. I can’t help that really, as I am an older brother. If I found out some guy tried something similar on my younger sister I’d be there in a flash hunting down the guy.
Actually, I can totally see Joe doing he same thing, based on what we’ve seen of him so far. Especially after that mini-confession in the last panel.
“You hurt Joyce? Joe SMASH!!!”
He mini-confessed that she punched him in the face. Not seeing how that sways him in the direction of being her protector.
I’m more of a romantic. I prefer to believe he meant that she touched his heart. 😛
It appears that Joyce is learning the hard way that ‘things can’t be the way they were’. She is afraid and angry, and thats not going to change overnight. Looked to me like Joe was actally concerned in the last panel. I am interested to see where this goes.
Love is in the air <3
*crosses fingers*
Please become lesbian, please become lesbian, please become lesbian…
That is an outmoded, dangerous, and sick cliché.
Since is becoming a lesbian dangerous?
I think he meant that it’s dangerous that people assume that people just ‘become’ lesbian because of bad experiences with men, probably in favour of the ‘everyone is born lesbian/gay/bisexual/heterosexual/etc.’ theory. Which is wrong, because sometimes people do become lesbian because of bad experiences with men. Sexuality (particularly for women) isn’t fixed or absolute to begin with. There is no reason to assume that psychology could not influence sexual orientation just as much as biology (or, in fact, that psychology can’t influence biology and so affect sexual orientation through biological change).
Except it’s also off-base to completely discredit the ‘born lgbt’ theory…
And why is it that “particularly women” do not have a fixed sexuality? Why can’t men experience that same fluid sexual preference, too? I’m not asking because I think you’re claiming that men CAN’T, I’m just wondering, why specifically women?
I think this guy needs to read some Sociological publications.
Sexuality can be fluid in terms of preferences, but that’s only when you let go of the binary (or trinary) ideas of orientation. It’s not a tick-box. Liken it more to a gradient line with infinite variability (I dunno, 30-bit colour?).
With that, someone can appear to “change orientation,” but more likely what’s happening is they’re either expressing a less explored part of their gradient, or they’re acting. Plenty of evidence puts more likeliness rough born positioning of gender and sexuality, than a completely psychological shaping through growth.
To subscribe to the drivel that Zab is proposing is to subscribe to the idea of “this show will make my kid gay!” That’s fear of the unknown, folks.
/endrant
What do you mean ‘drivel’? Perhaps i should clarify that when I said ‘become lesbian’ I meant ‘change their self-identification to lesbian’, since that’s the only meaningful change that can occur, as sexuality is a ‘gradient’. That’s the only part I can think of that might have been questionable.
People are putting words in my mouth. I never said that the idea that people are ‘born’ gay should be completely discredited. There is no evidence of it, and no evidence otherwise. (The ‘evidence’ that Tucker refers to is probably the pheremone experiments that have been conducted, which show a biological difference, but as I stated before, psychology can influence biology [particularly neurology], so this doesn’t really prove anything beyond the fact that sexual orientation probably tends to be long-term.) There is definitely no ‘completely psychological shaping through growth’. It seems most likely, to me, that people are born with a particular ‘gradient’ of sexual attraction, and it can then be tweaked by psychology throughout the person’s life. I have no proof of this, and would never claim that this is necessarily the case. It’s not necessary for my argument; although I suppose that because of my lack of distinction between ‘actual’ sexual orientation and the ‘active’ sexual orientation – the part of the person’s sexual orientation spectrum that they act on (e.g. who they date, etc.) – it may have been misinterpreted. What I meant is that women who have had bad experiences with men (often physical or sexual abuse) sometimes switch to dating women, and can continue to pursue relationships with women (or a woman) for the rest of their lives. Perhaps they are simply ‘expressing a less explored part of their gradient’, but the desire to express that part of their gradient comes from a psychologically significant event. This isn’t speculation, and I’m not claiming that it is necessarily anything more than a rare exception to the rule, but I know of people who have specifically stated that this is what happened to them. Apart from the ‘rest of their lives’ part.
@Kujazlilmage See Leorale’s post 12-Jan-2012 15:10. I’ve never actually seen the studies that indicate that women’s sexuality is more fluid, but I’ve seen them referred to constantly, so I’m just going along with it. I suppose that theoretically that’s another part of my post that was ‘drivel’.
The idea that female sexuality is more fluid is purely a societal thing. Women dating women is more socially acceptable than men dating men still.
There are lots of interesting scientific studies that show that women’s sexuality can change over time, whereas men’s sexuality remains pretty fixed. Those studies state that a man will probably retain his gender preference all his life, so if he’s gay he’ll stay gay, if he’s bi he’ll stay bi, if he’s straight he’ll stay straight. A woman might find herself attracted to people she didn’t expect to, in either direction: for example, a woman might be in a perfectly valid, loving lesbian relationship, and then find herself attracted to a man. Or she might prefer guys all through her teenage years but then find herself attracted to only women for the next forty years. Surprise!
This does not mean that women’s orientations are less valid or real, nor does it mean that all lesbians are just going through some kind of bad phase, it just means that, for some women, their orientation may change over time, in either direction.
I think Brendan was referring to the notion that a dick could cause that switch in a woman’s orientation. This leads to the very harmful and false notion that some creepy men have, that they could “fix” a lesbian if only she’d give their mighty dick a chance. Or, the idea that women only become gay because of a traumatic experience with men, which leads to the false idea that all lesbian relationships stem from unresolved trauma, and are therefore bad and scary. Ok this is long. Just go read/listen to Dan Savage for a while.
tldr: Sexuality is complicated!
PS: Sex usually involves lots of fluids. 😀
tee hee
My mom was in boot camp for the army and was raped in the showers and left for dead, and to this day she still has issues over it, though it was well over 30 years ago. It takes a while, and you have to want to, but it seems you can come to terms with it and learn to move on and trust again, though it doesn’t take much to break that trust.
Joyce can learn, too, if she has enough time to heal.
Joyce touched him.
In his heart.
with her penis?
That gravatar fits your comment SO WELL
her fist has touched his heart, fionna style.
oh glob i thought the same thing.
Aww, I was gonna say that!
I can’t seem to stop imagining Joe taunting her by saying “NA NA NA! I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!”
And then Mike shows up and punches him anyway for being annoying.
So Joeyce shipping is a go?
The USS Joeyce has a gaping hole and is taking on water.
Despite this Titanic setback, I still believe in Joeyce!
But she’s Enterprising towards a planet-sized problem!
… separate saucer section.
Yeah, Joyce is rather on edge, understandably so. Joe isn’t the guy to take it out on though. She should just go to the police and report on the bastard that roofied her already.
On the subject of that guy; Joe may be rather insensitive towards women, but I’ve got the strong feeling that if he ever found out what happened to Joyce he’d beat the crap out of the jerkass preacher’s son.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize Joe wasn’t making a bizarrely out-of-nowhere confession that Joyce had some impact on his emotions–he is referring to the literal touch of her fists on his face.
I am hoping and praying there isn’t a double meaning. This is bad enough as is without Joe having impacted emotions.
“Touched” in terms of emotions usually means heartwarming. None of Joe’s contact with Joyce should be considered heartwarming by him unless it turns out Joe is a masochist. That’s why I’m not fond of that interpretation. There is no reason for Joe to feel anything positive about Joyce at this point.
Unless I’m forgetting something.
Well, there was this moment.
::shrugs::
I’m hoping it’s meant both ways…
Because of your comment, I decided to refer to that strip again. So I hit the random button, and it landed me right on them walking into the restaurant together.
y’know………….this whole “Joe is bad/Joyce is good” thingee is REALLY a buncha crap! And pretty sexist to boot cause I damn sure know if the gender roles were reversed for the characters, then y’all would all be SCREAMING for Joe in handcuffs for hitting her.
you NEVER have a reason to put your hands on someone unless they have done it first………………….so show me the panel were Joe actually touched Joyce……………
or all y’all telling me it’s ok to hit someone just because of what they say or think or make you feel……………or better yet, it’s only ok if a female assaults a male, right?
Ok, off the box – discuss 🙂
That’s a difficult one for me. My Great Depression/WW2-generation father raised me understanding that there were almost no circumstances when it was permissible to strike a woman, even if the woman strikes you first. And I’ve lived it; my first wife came out of nowhere with a mean right once and broke my nose, and I walked away from her.
So maybe I’m not the best person to comment on modern attitudes. But I believe there is a huge difference. Men are typically larger and stronger than women; it is always wrong for a larger and stronger person to abuse a smaller, weaker person, sex notwithstanding.
So as to your specific points: No, it’s not OK to hit someone unless they have initiated the action. I’ve never started a fight but I sure as hell have finished a few. No, it’s not OK to hit someone because of what they say or think. And no, it’s not OK for a woman to assault a man.
My basic perspective is this:
To talk about equality is to live equality. You can’t have have true equality if you hide behind “oh wait, but I’m a girl!” I think the big question is: in this time where society is generally growing on the idea of general equality, why are people still resorting to gender rolls to manipulate their positioning?
I don’t see where affirmative action and finishing a fight you start are mutually exclusive. I don’t think people need to be hitting eachother period, but it is a human tendency. If a man punches me, I punch him back. If you profess equal rights, you better expect equal returns. So, you know, don’t start fights?
If a person is smaller and weaker than you, there is less need to respond with physical violence even to physical threats or actual violence, and the same amount of force may become disproportionate.
While the important part is not “female vs male” but “smaller and weaker vs larger and stronger”, the two things kinda go together.
On average, of course, not universally.
I (hope that I) wouldn’t react to a man differently than to a woman, but I would definitely react differently to a person twice my size than to a person half my size. The former group includes more men, the latter group more women.
Make sense?
I do react to men and women differently. And after half a century, I don’t think I’ll be changing. That’s just How Things Are.
It is always wrong for anybody to abuse anybody. It is easier for a larger, stronger person to abuse a smaller, weaker person.
And no, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with walking away from your ex-wife who attacked you without fighting back. Unless the person is continuing to attack you and you need to stop them from doing so, that’s probably the best thing to do both ethically and legally.
That said, I wouldn’t have blamed you if you had hit back, either. It’s hard to do the best thing sometimes.
And neither part of that has anything to do with the sex of either person.
The point is, I would have blamed me if I had hit her back. I was raised with a few unshakable rules that stuck with me through life, and “never strike a woman” was one of them. I suppose I could overcome that if at risk of life or permanent injury, but that’s probably what it would take.
Overcome your sexually discriminatory psychological conditioning! Go, beat up every woman you can find! Report back when you get out of gaol/hospital. If dead, do not report back. I don’t want to have to deal with a zombie apocalypse.
Don’t troll.
I was joking, not trolling. I thought the mentions of zombie apocalypse would make it clear that I wasn’t being serious.
Technically, beating up just women is also discriminatory.
Jeez, Joyce, bongo much?
Can you blame her?
Yes.
Joyce hates Joe because she thinks premarital hanky-panky is immoral. She is enforcing her own ethics on him and when he falls short (not because he is a bad person, per se, but because he has a different ethic) she condemns him.
There are other factors that make her actions understandable and even forgivable, but at the heart she is in the wrong.
Isn’t that what the legal system always does? Of course, then you get into the definition of ‘morally right’ and ‘morally wrong’. Is it better to decide what is right based on your own ethical principles, without regard to the mainstream view (this being the only opportunity for social change), or is it better to trust the voice of the many over the voice of the one, and conform to popular opinion? And if you’ve chosen the former, do you enforce it if it is against the ethical principles of wider society? If the latter, do you enforce it if it seems wrong by your own standards? Do these answers change if one is in law enforcement or the military?
But yes, Joyce is wrong. I’m sure that even by her own moral code, violence wasn’t really the best option.
Well, what she said to Joe was certainly unjustified, but given what she’s going through it’s a completely understandable reaction.
Sheltered, home-schooled girl comes to college hoping to find her true love. First date, it’s with Joe, who wants sex. Second ‘date,’ the nice, Bible-loving guy turns out to be a date rapist. So, no, Joe probably didn’t deserve that, but I’d hardly blame Joyce for this reaction.
Yeah… she needs to see some a therapist or doctor or something… {:-(
I has a sad now. 🙁
I has a sad now.
Touch-A, Touch-A, Touch Me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUqCv_1kGzM
I feel dirty after going to that link
cue “the young and the restless” theme
BTW, apropos ofnothing , I’m in a weird mood this morning…
Indubitably.
People CHAAAAAAAAANGE
Methinks somebody has a crush.
The only crush that’s gone on between these two is her fists into his face.
Unless you’re suggesting he has some sort of stockholm syndrome. Which I suppose is *possible*…
Oh dear. Just realized Joyce is crying in panel four. I has a sad.
We should start a Has-a-Sad Club.
Will we have jackets?
Must have customized handkerchiefs.
Yes and yes. We will have both.
At first I read that as “Joe is crying in panel four”, and I thought you were a crazy person.
He’s only crying on the inside.
Technically, Joe, you touched her fist with your face.
Liar.
OH SHIT.
Anyone here think maybe Joyce thinks Joe was her assailant?
Nah. Joyce knows Sarah was there when she was attacked and Sarah has met Joe.
More to the point, Joyce knows she GLASSED the guy who attacked her, and Joe is not sporting any bongoin’ new facial wounds.
Besides which, I’m pretty sure she has been made aware that it was the pastor’s son.
No, she’s on edge around males now after what happened, though she’s probably not aware of it. It was noticeable when she was standing next to the guy in the elevator.
So, some people really think the last panel is referring to when she punched him? It seems pretty obvious to me that he has some kind of feelings toward her. Are we forgetting his momentary speechlessness when she showed up in the yellow dress for their date? I think he fell back on his old habits in that date, which caused it to crash and burn, and now he might have a bit of regret somewhere deep down.
Also, I do think that Joe would be disgusted by Ryan’s actions at the party too. Sure, Joe is totally out there to get his fair share of ass, but I just have this feeling that he would draw the line at drugging someone. He likes to appear like the macho player, but when compared to Ryan, I think he would come out looking a lot better.
(And yes, I do think he would like to kick Ryan’s ass if he found out what happened at the party.)
Well yes. There’s a big difference between interested in sex over a long-lasting relationship (Although the two aren’t mutually exclusive) and rape. One is a perfectly valid life choice; the other is a crime.
Perfectly valid choice, yes. Perfectly valid life choice, sure, but impracticable. Not that I’m familiar with it, but I imagine that it would get more difficult to perpetuate the sex-only approach as one gets older. In theory, this might sometimes be the reason that people who used to utilise the sex-only approach sometimes go through, or transition to, an ‘it’s time to settle down’ phase – because that’s the only way they’re going to continue having sex. Note the two layers of ‘sometimes’ there – I’m certainly not suggesting that this is true of all people who have made this perfectly valid life choice.
Given his expression and irritation at her unfocused outburst, I think the only way to interpret his “you touched -me-” is as “With your fists, in my face”. I cannot imagine that given her reaction to him there, even if he -was- honestly smitten with her, that his mind would be on any positive feelings he has for her. So yes, I do think that his comment there is about her assault on him. He is pretty unambiguously annoyed here.
Gaaaah! I’ve caught your gravatar!
OH TEH NOES, and from now on the comic is super-srs. Sadface.
Wow, joe.
Poor Joyce. She has PTSD, something all too common in survivors of sexual assault. :'(
It’s a tragedy, what’s happening to Joyce. We haven’t quite crossed the Despair Event Horizon yet, but this is a patented case of Break the Cutie in action. My bet is that Joyce will Take a Level in Badass before all is said and done.
This is my favorite page and I ship it so hard.