Joe has been a person misusing his intelligence and burying his feeling since the start of this strip. Now that he has nowhere else to go with his ‘tension’ it’s going in all sorts of different directions. I wonder if this little episode is going to require a clean-up though.
Bros before hoes? Or maybe he thinks Joyce would be a better match with Jacob and will let it happen, but still just wanted to make his feelings known about how disgusted he is by this
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. On one hand, I think he’s smart enough to see that Jacob and Joyce are definitely well-suited for each other. On the other hand, he might also have gained enough awareness about his past behaviour to realize that what Sarah’s doing is just as objectionable and offensive as how he used to treat women. So, he’s not going to do anything, but he just wants it known that he KNOWS what Sarah’s doing, and on some level, she’s no better than he was.
Joe could well be the Cassandra here, and might be smart enough to know it, that maybe nobody will listen to that truth coming out of his mouth. Ergo he won’t say it to anyone else, for now?
I’ve noticed that for the most part even the most disgusting people have lines they won’t cross. Hell from a fictional standpoint there’s the Marvel/DC Crossover event where Joker refused to work with the Red Skull. I believe is exact words were “I may be a dangerously unstable criminal psychopath… but I’m an American Psycopath!!”
Which is really full of hypocrisy, it’s like saying “I’m better than him because even if I WILL do this thing I won’t do it for those Reasons”. Joker kills and tortures people en masse and just because he does it out of insanity instead of racism doesn’t really make him better than Red Skull. It’s all just to make himself feel better. It reminds me that one quote from Ninth Doctor
“The Doctor: You let one go, but that’s nothing new. Every now and then, a little victim’s spared. Because she smiled, because he’s got freckles, because they begged. And that’s how you live with yourself. That’s how you slaughter millions. Because once in a while, on a whim, if the wind’s in the right direction, you happen to be kind.”
Joe is on the right side and Sarah is on the wrong side, and he’s saying it to her. I think we need to revisit “things I didn’t expect before becoming nuclear ash”.
Hell freezes over regularly. It’s snowing there right now. check the URL in my user name if you don’t believe me.
That said, I expect its going to be. “Yeah. you don’t want Raidah to have what you think is yours. Like he’s property, bought and sold… Sound familiar?”
The very reason Joe is Joe is because he’s invested in this.
He’s even gone into how he basically does the whole “no romantic attachments thing” b/c he seems to be *DEATHLY AFRAID* of hurting someone the way his dad hurt his mom-by cheating on her. A lot.
(This is also why he is SUPER PISSED at his dad dating Amber’s mom, b/c he does not trust his dad to not cheat.)
Sarah trying to get Jacob to cheat on Raidah is, like, something that Joe would very much be upset by.
I imagine the next panel of joe talking would be him saying that this would destroy everybody and everything involved. Joyce. Jacob. Their egos and views of themselves. As well as raidah too, sure. And Sarah herself as well.
Putting someone in a goof, ahm, good light is not the same as sabotaging a relationship.
Sabotage means doing things to create misunderstandings and distrust between the people in the relationship, actual acts of shading the truth or lying to do so, ….
This is not what is happening. Sarah creates situation where Joyce meets Jacob and where she is seen in a favorable light.
And I rather suspect she thinks Raidah will behave like an utter asshole when she notices an attraction between Jacob and Joyce thus alienating Jacob. But this part of the plan depends on how Raidah is really like, so Sarah might be wrong about that (though from what we have seen, she might be right).
Her motivation is all but pure, sure, because she is invested in this because she doesn’t want Raidah to get the nice guy, but still. If all anyone ever committed because of envy was setting up situation where someone meets someone who might be a better match than their current partner, the world would be a vastly better place.
It’s still generally considered bad form to try and get in the middle of a couple (or polyfidelitous group). When two people become exclusive, they’re stating “I want to be with just this person” and throwing yourself at one is rude. It’s like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and repeatedly bringing them brochures for law school. It isn’t that law school is bad- the person has stated their wants and you need to respect it.
Pushing someone away from their partner and into a different relationship is still a violation of boundaries. It’s very much a “road to hell paved with good intentions”.
The world would be a MUCH better place if people could respect others’ life plans and just get on with their own. So much suffering is down to someone being told “What you want isn’t good enough, you have to do what I’ve decided is better”.
I think you’re projecting a bit. Besides, the metaphor doesn’t apply if the potential doctor had never considered law school. Maybe knowing more about it could influence their decision? If Mr. Tephor says “no i definitely want to be a doctor and law school and I should just be friends” then yeah the only decent thing to do is leave him be, but presenting the opportunity and letting fate take its course is okay, okay?
So it’s perfectly fine to attempt to seduce one member of a couple? No worries. It’s just “presenting the opportunity” and it’s purely the fault of the seduced if it works. The seducer is innocent of any wrong-doing.
that sounds like a rationalization for door-to-door salespeople, and they seem pretty universally hated.
but that’s not even what’s happening here. like, the “so tell me about sarah” part was a lot like that, but it hasn’t ended there. Joyce is still flirting and still in denial about it, and will probably bring up sarah to him again too (partly to keep herself in denial).
this is more like … like when the gym has the food channel on their TV 😛
@thejeff: No one is talking about seducing someone (and Joyce wouldn’t know where to start even if she wanted to).
It seems rather a large jump from showing an interest to seduction to me (though I admit, there are people who show interest only by trying to seduce, and I won’t defend those).
Joyce isn’t, but in Brumagem’s argument, seduction would apply as well as anything else. “presenting the opportunity and letting fate take its course”
Would literal seduction change the morality? It could be a slow enough process that there’s time to break up before any actual sex, to avoid the complication of cheating.
I call bullshit. Whatever your methods, the end result is the same. Ending the existing relationship.
It’s one thing to counsel a person who is unhappy with their relationship to end it – they can choose to accept your advice or not. But attempting to manipulate a person in an apparently happy relationship to leave that for another relationship is a crappy thing to do, whatever the motives.
^^^ this. Guys have willpower and judgement, having them meet someone new and cute is not ‘sabotaging their relationship’. That Sarah thinks it will work regardless says something about her opinion of the relationship in question.
There are two questions here.
1) Is it an acceptable thing to try to break up a relationship for your own purposes? To get back at someone, because you want them yourself, because your friend wants them.
2) Or does it only matter how you go about it? As long as you don’t cross certain lines, the intentions don’t matter.
I’ve seen relationships break up over both kinds: a “friendly” seduction and more nasty manipulations. You know what? Both wind up being pretty damn miserable. And generally nobody gets what they want.
And found the letters proving that Mary is the long lost sister of Ruth, but Asma burned them because she was their parents CIA handler, and was present at the Korean mob hit orchestrated by Blaine and had to cover it up by faking a car accident. Can Joe retrieve the microfilm that Fuckface swallowed in time to clear Robin’s name, while still somehow attending the birthday parties of both Sierra and Leslie on the same day? Find out next week! Same Amazi-Time, same Amazi-Channel!
Not that I think Jacob would cheat, but Joe seems extra sensitive to chasing other prospects when in a committed relationship. His parents divorce must have been hard on him.
There is possibly an element of that. I do think it hurts his feelings to see Joyce fawn over Jacob and be shitty to him, particularly since they’d fostered something of a friendship, with Joyce confiding to Joe about her home life, and that seems to have largely stopped since Joyce has been aimed at Jacob. That’d be hurtful regardless of who you were, probably.
I doubt, even in Joe’s mind, that any change is linked to Joyce being aimed at Jacob.
He was a jerk to her in class, not being willing to pick up face to face where they’d been in texts.
The whole list thing came out and she was legitimately upset by that, but still connected to him.
And he contributed to the whole “breaking the toe” thing this morning, which is why she’s currently (unfairly) mad at him.
Doesn’t mean there isn’t some jealousy, but interest in Jacob being why she’s not so friendly with him doesn’t make sense to me.
Joe REALLY does not like cheating. To the point where it appears *one* of the reasons he’s basically sworn off romantic attachments out of fear that he’s like his father, so that he won’t hurt people the way his dad hurt his mom.
Which was by cheating on her.
*A LOT*.
No, Joe’s pissed here b/c Sarah is *TRYING* to get Jacob to cheat. That is Her Entire Plan.
That, and we don’t have a whole lot of reason to think he knows Raidah much.
Raidah’s not really surly, that’s Sarah’s bag. Raidah’s outwardly pleasant to some people, but a condescending douche to others. Even if he’s met Raidah outside of a few pleasantries, he’s probably not been subjected to that much.
you just know he’s going to try and stick his oar in, and Joyce is going to react negatively because his input is counter to what she wants to hear, but she’s still going to eventually recognise its truth, and clusterfuck and sadness
Could be, but personally I don’t buy into that whole attitude that people need to be completely emotionally healthy and/or healed before getting into relationships. It’s not an endurance sport; you can still enjoy spending time with someone in a smooch-smooch romantickal way even if you heart all asplode.
but this isn’t about getting her into a relationship really, it’s about taking one away from Raidah. it’s the “using joyce as a pawn” that’s the shitty thing referred to by “and you’re still doing this?”
I agree that Joyce would be a better match for Jacob, but Sarah trying to end Jacob’s relationship ‘for his own good’ is just plain disrespectful and patronizing, and whether Jacob and Raidah’s relationship should be their decision to make instead of Sarah’s
Joe might be a recovering womanizer, but he still clearly has some morals. Maybe having him of all people call her out on this will make Sarah realize how what she’s doing, while nice for Joyce and maybe even Jacob, is still kind of awful
Cheating is a hot-button issue for Joe, because his father’s serial adultery ended his parents’ marriage. He’s afraid he’ll inevitably follow that pattern himself.
His strategy for dealing with it is basically a Roll Safe meme that says “you can’t cheat if the relationship isn’t serious”. As we all know, we think we’re always making the best choices possible in college, after all we have a couple years’ experience in adulting under our belts.
Now, the real test…will the fact that Joe’s the one saying this cause her to dismiss it as ‘typical Joe bullshit’, or give it extra weight from the ‘holy fucking shit, Joe has the moral high ground, here?’ factor.
I’m hoping for an extended bit of dialogue for two more strips, personally. Enough to back-and-forth a little, let Sarah dig herself a hole, give Joe some room to explain why he’s going to react the way he is.
Well, this strip confirms it. I denied it for far too long. I just didn’t want to believe it was true but… it’s about time I face the music: I, Deadjolras, am a Joe fan.
(ialsoshiphimwithjoyce, oh god what is happening to me, i didn’t mean for this to happen)
I too am a Joe fan because I’m a sucker for flawed characters redeeming themselves. (and I too ship Joece because I’m a sucker for text messaging intimacy)
That’s why its a trope that movies begin with a person self-identifying as a villian by doing something evil. After that, the good people can do as they please to the villian without being evil themselves.
Outside of like, the Ryan thing, I think the only time he’s been in that position was chiding Danny for being patronizing in regards to how he handled Billie coming onto him strongly. (Though I suspect Danny was motivated more due to looking for an excuse to not do it out of already having feelings for Amazi-Girl and to a lesser extent Amber)
Beyond that, not directly related, but he did also call out Walky for his sitcom-y fragile masculinity on the subject of shoes, and that he was being an idiot. I could very well be missing more, though.
He is honestly one of the most complicated main characters in this strip. I didn’t really think much of him, initially, but between his friendship with Danny, his evolving friendship with Joyce, and his stuff with his dad, we’ve gotten a look at a lot of layers for what looked like a dudebro initially.
I’m very curious as to what happens now. I am also really wondering how much Joe really even knows Raidah. I don’t think he’d EVER bless Sarah’s plan, and on principal, finds cheating abhorrent, but I wonder if that will play into things any. Lot of interesting possibilities here.
See, people are assuming it won’t work because Jacob won’t cheat.
But…
that’s not what’s going to happen.
Jacob trusts Raidah.
Jacob seems to enjoy spending time, but he’s basically Dorothy, as previously stated.
And Dorothy broke up with Danny “For his own good”
Jacob wouldn’t cheat on Raidah.
But Raidah?
Whose friends are already stoking the fires of paranoia?
Whose own insecurities are already at play?
What happens when she thinks that Jacob is enjoying spending time with Joyce more than with her?
I’m not saying she’s going to cheat on him. Okay, I might have implied it, fair point, but my point now is.
What’s she’s doing isn’t about getting Jacob or Raidah to cheat on each other.
It’s playing off of Raidah’s insecurities to make her ACCUSE Jacob of cheating.
Something much smaller and much more easily manageable, that can have drastic consequences for a relationship.
And then, they’ll break up. Because as good of a guy as Jacob is, he doesn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t trust him.
And based purely on the principle that drama is a thing that happens in this webcomic, he figures out that Sarah set the whole thing up just about 5-10 seconds before they actually get together because she’s there to console him.
Sarah’s like Iago to Raidah’s Othello, except with VERY different motivations, and much less racist tones. Of course, Raidah’s not really depicted as someone honorable even before this wedge has been driven in.
I really hope something happens with Raidah, so Sarah’s actions are … well, seen in a better light I guess. WE’VE seen Raidah for the crappy person that she is, but Joe doesn’t know about that. Neither does Jacob.
I’m probably going to get yelled at for this comment. Eh.
It doesn’t matter if Raidah is a crappy person or not. Manipulating someone because you think you know what’s best for them is a horrible and insulting thing to do.
Using Joyce as an unwitting pawn in the hopes that Jacob will break off his relationship with Raidah, for the sole purpose of hurting raidah, whilst ignoring the feelings of Jacob and Joyce, and ignoring the fact that Joyce will probably feel very upset on discovering that sarah pushed her into it
I don’t think Raidah’s crappiness warrants sabotaging her relationship. It’s worse than just trying to break up Jacob and Raidah (which Joyce also wanted to do). It’s vindictive and it’s using Jacob and Joyce (and their chemistry) as tools. Raidah treats Sarah crappy because Raidah thinks Sarah uses people like they’re disposable.
I like Sarah and her charming cynicism. But she shouldn’t become the person Raidah thinks she is. If she’s going to undermine Raidah’s relationship, she could just tell Jacob why they don’t get along. It’s still a bit vindictive to try to break them up, but it’s not using other people like disposable tools.
I don’t know what yall are talking about. I mean all Sarah’s doing is motivating Joyce to spend time with Jacob. Whatever they do with eachother is their decision, it’s not like Sarah can magically make them want to fuck. Also, what cheating? Who said Jacob’s gonna cheat? He can just break up with Raidah before getting jiggy with Joyce.
Sarah can’t control their actions, but that doesn’t mean her actions and motives are pure. She’s trying to use Joyce to use Jacob to hurt Raidah. Whether she’s successful or not, that’s not great.
Motivating joyce to spend time with Jacob will potentially cause Raidah to become jealous and cause her to break up with Jacob, or cause Jacob to cheat (not likely) with Joyce and then dump Raidah. Either way, its manipulative and it shows Sarah using other people as pawns so she can hurt Raidah
Yes, but she’s motivating Joyce under false pretenses. Joyce still thinks she’s on a mission to hook up Sarah and Jacob (which in retrospect is its own moral can of worms), while Sarah has clearly abandoned that and just wants Jacob to break up with Raidah, purely as a “fuck you” to Raidah. It’s great that Joyce is having fun with Jacob yes, but the entire reason they started to hang out is because Joyce is also trying to play matchmaker. Knowing Joyce’s character, she’d spend time with Jacob even if Jacob was a jerk, if that’s what she thought Sarah wanted.
No matter if they’re a wonderful couple, it’s a deceitful way to draw them together. No matter how big of a jerk he is, on this one occasion, Joe has the high ground.
There’s a thing in Purity Culture called emotional cheating, where even if you do nothing, merely thinking about a person other than your single SO is a sin. There’s no evidence that Jacob believes in this, but Joyce probably does. She probably also hasn’t examined her belief that when a man lusts after a woman, it’s the woman’s fault. So if Joyce finds out about all this, she will be angry with Sarah. If she thinks Sarah’s plot has been slightly successful, she will feel guilty. This has a lot of potential to hurt Joyce.
But Joyce does know about this. Sarah hasn’t exactly been quiet about her motives, here, and Joyce, herself, is doing it to break up Jacob and Raidah, in order to get Jacob together with Sarah.
Not that makes what they’re doing fine and dandy, since it’s still fucking with Jacob and Raidah, just saying that they’re both acting like worse people than we know they are, and contradicting their own moral beliefs.
Not quite. Joyce is deliberately and mostly honestly putting forward a case for Jacob to choose to be with Sarah. Her dishonesty (as has so often been the case with her) is primarily to herself–she’s not admitting that she’s attracted to Jacob on her own part, and so she continues to make nudges about Sarah–when she isn’t distracted by the Chocolate Six-Pack.
I wouldn’t phrase it like that, but emotional cheating is at least risky as hell for a relationship. A lot of physical cheating and/or breakups start that way. Build an emotional connection to the new person, neglect maintaining the old one and suddenly, without ever intending to cheat, you’re “in love” with the new one and not with the old.
Did she though? I mean I guess you can frame it as a big political move against the GOP or some noble way to make Robin admit her sexuality, but to me it still seemed like a pretty petty move just to bring her sister down (not to mention catching Leslie in the crossfire and leaving her to just be embarrassed).
There’s probably a mix of things. She has her motives against her sister on a smaller scale, and she’s opposed to what her sister does to other people with the power she has. I don’t think it has to be one or the other, or even like, “She tells herself she’s motivated by politics, but really this is sibling rivalry.”
Robin was supporting legislation that would strip rights and protections from LGBT people.
That’s more than enough to justify plotting against her and trying to end her career. The fallout on Leslie seemed to me like it was an unforeseen consequence, not something where she had specifically realized it could happen but didn’t care.
Though I think that even if Mary were behind this, there would still be a number of people who’d feel conflicted about it simply because Joyce and Jacob seem like they’d make such an adorable couple.
Yeah, that was plan A, and what she pitched to Leslie. Though even if she very rapidly did a 180 on her shitty political stances, that would likely have tanked her political career as well. I don’t see her keeping the GOP endorsement in that scenario, even if she stayed in the closet.
But my main point was that removing Robin from office was more than just petty revenge on her sister. Robin may not be as bigoted as Roy Moore, but she was going to tow the same party line that he would’ve if he’d won. Roz was completely right to be happy that her career tanked.
People were rooting for Sarah to a degree when she was the one gunning for Jacob, since we’re privy to Raidah’s deplorable behavior. (inaction with her friend’s drug abuse running her life into a hole, lashing out at the person who actually did anything about it, shitty behavior towards other characters with like the one redeeming trait being her chastising a friend for using the R word towards Dina, but really doing nothing about the sentiment beyond that).
Though, certainly, dragging Joyce into it is adding another layer of moral problems. That’s a whole other person, and someone who has considerable trust and faith in Sarah.
I’m really not sure why so many people are saying Sarah wants Jacob to cheat on Raidah. Sarah doesn’t need Jacob to cheat on Raidah in order for her plan to work. She just needs Jacob to break up with Raidah. If Jacob develops feelings for Joyce to a sufficient extent that he breaks it off with Raidah, Sarah wins.
Is that manipulative? Yes. Is it a crappy thing to do to Raidah? Yes, this plan is meant to hurt her. Is it a crappy thing to do to Jacob? No, because Jacob is a grown ass man who can make his own choices.
Trying to sabotage someone else’s seemingly happy relationship is not a good thing. Sure, we can argue all day long that whatever happens is Jacob and Joyce’s decision, that nobody’s forcing Jacob to cheat, that there’s no guarantee that Jacob will cheat anyway, etc.
But that doesn’t take away from the fact that Sarah knows (and Becky as well, I think) that Jacob is in a relationship, and she’s still trying to manipulate events so he’ll end up falling for Joyce instead and, by extension, manipulating him. Whether that leads to cheating or Jacob breaking up with Raidah to be with Joyce or even nothing at all, her intentions are still to mess up with someone else’s relationship.
I think what tips it over the edge of unethical for me is that Joyce doesn’t know about Sarah’s endgame. I’d say it’s fair for one party to intentionally try to attract someone in a relationship (because you can’t “steal” someone’s partner, say it with me now). But Joyce is in denial that she’s even doing this, and will be very upset when she realizes that Sarah pushed her to it.
I agree that bringing Joyce into it makes it worse. I don’t know if it’s okay to try to attract someone in a relationship, because while their decision is their decision, it still seems disrespectful.
I also have a question for you, where I’m really just wondering your thoughts and not trying to argue about it or anything:
Say Sarah’s plan had stayed that she would get with Jacob, and she was successful and he ended up cheating on Raidah with her. What would be your view of Sarah’s ethicalness in that situation?
If Sarah managed to attract Jacob such that he broke up with Raidah for her, I’d see no problem with that. If he cheated on her with Sarah though… it gets a little complicated and honestly quite subjective. I don’t set too much store by absolute monogamy so cheating and all the deception it entails doesn’t make sense to me – people should just be upfront about who they’re attracted to is how I see it. Given the kind of person Jacob is, cheating on his girlfriend would probably harm him as much as it harmed the girlfriend. If Sarah enabled him despite that just to hurt Raidah, yeah it would be unethical because you can’t even justify that by positing that it’s making one couple in the equation happy.
Oh, yes, there’s definitely that too! Like Yumi said in another thread, “[Sarah’s] trying to use Joyce to use Jacob to hurt Raidah.” The endgame here is not “get Joyce and Jacob to smooch so they can be happy together” (that’s what Joyce consciously believes she’s doing, except, y’know, replace ‘Joyce’ with ‘Sarah’). The actual objective is “get Joyce and Jacob together just to hurt Raidah“. Raidah is an unpleasant person and Jacob may deserve better, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that both him and Joyce are being used as tools to harm someone else. There are no good intentions here (not from Sarah’s side, at least).
If Jacob breaks up with Raidah to be with Joyce, Raidah is going to be laser-focused on destroying Joyce in every meaningful sense for disrupting her power-couple plan.
I’d say it’s still a crappy thing for Jacob. Even if everything works out peachy for him, he’s still being manipulated. Maybe it’s just me, but if I found out one day that my perfect girlfriend and I only met because I was just a pawn in a revenge plot by a 3rd party, I’d be pissed.
Whatever your opinions on monogamy, do you believe that it is either moral or ethical for someone to direct their time and energy into intentionally intermeddling with what appears to be a perfectly happy relationship simply because one has an animus against a person in that relationship? Would you accept such an action as perfectly reasonable if you found out that someone was trying to manipulate events to create a situation in which your significant other was tempted into either breaking up with or cheating on you (even if your significant other does not give into such temptation)?
If you were asking me… I think acting with the sole purpose of hurting someone else is malicious so definitely not ethical. I do however believe in people’s right to consensually act on desire, though of course other parties should be treated kindly and with fairness. My problem with absolute monogamy is it often makes that kindness impossible because people get too caught up in the guilt of being attracted to other people and can’t be honest with their partners.
Why is everybody making comments like “WOW can you believe it JOE is having morals, who even KNEW?”
Joe has never, not once, been malicious or intentionally cruel. He’s not always patient, or kind, or gentle or whatever, but he’s always been earnest and upfront.
(I think I just convinced myself that joe is actually a Paladin lmao)
Joe has never deliberately hurt anybody, no, and even genuinely wants to avoid that, but his moral screen is so skewed that he does so anyway. His attempts to distance himself from people manifest in such fucked up ways, he hurt people, despite his desire not to. Hopefully, the wakeup call he’s been given sticks and he does manage to be the man he’s always thought he was.
He’s not a bad person, but he’s a person who’s had a bad moral framework, that caused harm to everyone around him.
This is a long running webcomic, so I may have forgotten some of the earlier drama. Who did Joe hurt again, apart from the time when his secret list got leaked?
Or it could be Walky trying to break up with Dorothy, Dorothy explaining why they should stay together, and everything ends happy ever after!
…
…
…Nah, who am I kidding? There’s no way that’ll ever happen.
Too late, Joe. Even if Sarah gives up entirely, there’s real attraction there. I don’t see Jacob cheating–he’s waaaaaay too wholesome and good–but I do see an “it’s not you, it’s me” chat coming up eventually.
Joe seems inclined to agree, he did say it’s going to work. I wonder which is causing his scornful look more: the relationship stuff we know for a fact he dislikes strongly, or, that Joyce is a pawn in it not so very long after their heart to heart about, well, treating women like people. Joyce is a game token right now, not a person, at least, not entirely.
I think he’s mostly upset that its working, that Joyce who’s supposed to be better than that is falling for an attached man. He’s also upset that Joyce’s plan is sort of not the best either. I think he also doesn’t like how freaking difficult its going to be to tell Joyce that she’s actually flirting with Jacob even if they don’t realize it yet, also trying to manipulate someone in a relationship to date your friend instead is sort of a crappy move anyways.
I agree. Why do people think that Jacob cheating on Raidah is the logical outcome to this situation? Jacob hasn’t been shown to be that kind of person, and Joyce definitely isn’t that kind of person. Sarah wants to hurt Raidah, sure, but this could just as easily be done by the “it’s not you, it’s me” break-up.
I mean, Joe has never been actively evil, just very self-involved and rarely observant enough to notice the consequences of his actions. But to notice the consequences of other people’s actions?
Other commenters, particularly AeromechanicalAce, have noted that he’s sensitive to affairs and affair-like matters because of his adulterous dad. Seems like the case.
If said consequences have the possibility of including cheating or something similar to it, then, yes, Joe will notice and care enough to get involved.
I don’t want to repeat what others’ have said already but, basically, his dad’s rampant cheating destroyed his marriage to Joe’s mum and left Joe with significant emotional scars, and that’s why he cares now.
Joyce is aware in so far as she knows Raidah is not good folk, but I do not believe she has cottoned onto the fact the game has shifted from Sarah to Joyce as to who he’d be paired with.
Becky knows, Billie knows I thiiink, I think Dorothy does, I forget if she’s been present for the machinations, but Joyce seems to be in the dark.
I think that there is a difference between what Becky a Sarah are doing. What Becky is doing is more analogous to what Joyce thinks she is doing: Playing matchmaker to set their friend up with a dude that the friend likes.
Sarah isn’t doing this because she thinks that Joyce and Jacob would be super happy together, she is doing it to hurt Raidah. Becky’s motivation is much more likely to be tied to Joyce’s happiness and the fact that Joyce and Jacob seem like a good fit for each other.
It is still not great to be manipulative, but I don’t think it is the sort of manipulation that Joyce would be devistated by. Matchmaking is something Joyce is fond of and I don’t think that the fact that Becky approaches it differently than she does would upset her that much.
Joyce is completely aware of the plan. She’s actively working to get Jacob and Sarah together. She’s discussed this with Joe, looking for tips on the Wooing Arts.
She has, of course, no interest in him personally. This is just her helping out a friend. Really.
You know the worst part? I kinda agree with Joe and Sarah here. I think Raidah, based on what we see and know of her, is a horrible match for Jacob and not much of a decent human being in general. I also think that Jacob and Joyce, based on their interactions, actually COULD be good for each other. Potentially, at least. But what Sarah is doing and why feels way too manipulative and would really hurt her friendship with Joyce if it came to light. Its another Ruth/Billie situation- I kinda want the ship to happen, but all the surrounding bullshit and lingering issues make it a very tense thing to ship.
Maybe I’m forgetting something obvious, but. . . how does Joe know that Sarah is pushing Joyce to interact more with Jacob? An admittedly quick and brief mental/archive review suggests that every time, from Joe’s perspective, it’s been Joyce on her own initiative trying to do stuff with Jacob (and/or push Sarah together with Jacob).
I think it’s just a thing where Joyce is kind of blind/oblivious to what Sarah’s doing, but Joe can see it. He’s shallow, but he knows relationships, and he’s from a broken home where he’s probably watched his dad pull some scummy moves that might resemble what’s happening here.
The only thing Joyce is unaware of is that Sarah wants her to get together with Jacob, and that’s only because she’s so laser-focused on the idea of getting Sarah and Jacob together. She is perfectly aware of the fact that she is involved in a plot to break up Jacob and Raidah.
Nah.
Joyce is unaware thats she is actively courting jacob for herself.
Sarah is aware of it ( as is Joe, Becky, Raidahs friends ) .
and Joyce is unaware that Sarah approves of Joyces attraction.
Joe interacts with Jacob and Joyce a lot in different contexts. Joe knows what Raidah thinks of Sarah, and Joe’s in enough classes with Sarah to know that she’s into Jacob.
Joe might not take a particularly enlightened view of relationships, but he’s fairly aware of their mechanics and decently intelligent besides.
Wait, since when is Joe in any classes with Sarah?
She’s sophomore pre-law, he’s freshman (has he declared a major?). They’ve certainly never interacted in class – looking through the joe+sarah tag, most of the strips are in the dining halls, and the others are in liminal areas, like the foyer or street.
I think its because he knows everyone fairly well.
He is good friends and work out buddies with jacob. He knows hes happy with Raidah.
He is secret texting Buddies with Joyce
He talked with Joyce about her not trying to break then up for Sarah.
He sees Joyce in crush mode with Jacob.
He knows her well enough to know what this looks like and has seen her personality switch in front of him.
And finally He cynically ( and partially correctly ** ) understand Sarah as the ( sexually ) experienced Sophomore and Joyce as the Doe eyed Innocent Ingenue in the opening ARC of the strip. ( When he Fail-dated Joyce and tried to hook Sarah up with Danny.)
Plus he is probably privy to a little inside man gossip of Jacob / Sarah and the Raidah/Sarah dynamic.
Despite Joes many, many flaws he has a high potential social intelligence ( he used purely too hook up ) . Whats he lacking in self reflection and introspection he makes for UM Game* . If Joe just used his socialgraph powers for good, he would make a great matchmaker and party thrower.
His Other intuition is fantastic. Hes was just misusing is as narcissistic douchbage.
*( i hate using that word but cant think of the string of psych words of gamifying social intelligence that equals shallow popularity ) Maybe social Intuition and shallow But high emotional intelligence
And I’ll clarify here that I don’t expect Raidah to be entirely unsympathetic once Willis takes some time to focus on her background.
From what we know of her so far, she’s from a black Muslim family. Her parents were likely movement figures back in the day, but transitioned into the professional world, quite likely law practice. She’s under a fair bit of pressure to do the same, and since Jacob is pre-law she sees a potential power couple there.
In a lot of ways, Raidah is seeking something very similar to what Joyce thought she was going to college for. To find a husband that lets her achieve what her parents have told her is the ideal adult life. It’s just that the cultural context that she’d get from high-achieving black professional parents is not quite the MRS that Joyce had envisioned (and is currently starting to re-examine).
Condemn Sarah if you want, but Becky, Joe, Raidah, and Joyce are equally culpable if not more so.
To believe Sarah is a culpable Svengali, is to Place the moral utility of actively interfering with another to try stop them, above the morality not Interfering.
Joyce isnt Innocent here.
She is strongly attracted to Jacob and is knowingly spending time with jacob with break up his relationship. She just has fooled herself that its for the Best and that she is doing it for Sarah.
Sarah actually believes JOyce and Jacob are a better match, and has been encouraging Joyce what she is already doing.
Sarah had nothing to do with Joyce mooning over jacob nor Joyce going to the exercise room.
It was all Joyce’s idea. Sarah could have tried to stop it ( and it might not have worked ). It didnt work when she told Joyce to break up with Ethan.
Raidah was warned by her friends and could have stopped it, but her sense of superiority blinded her. Becky saw the attraction and has mid-wifed it along; far more than Sarah.
and Now Joes sees it , and hasnt warned Jacob.
Jacob and Joyce arent pawns. They are choosing to spend time with each other.
Sarah might be guilty in her own mind because she more experienced. Yet that same experience has taught her that Interference usually doesnt work and backfires.
Sarah might also be guilty in her own mind of violating her strongest ethics of not getting involved with teenage drama. Even though it was Joyce that created this.
No matter Sarah does now she will be interfering. The only person who might be able to get Joyce to think clearly on this is Dorothy.
The worse case scenario is this blows up in Joyces face after multiple people have warned her. Thus Joyce learns that humans arent pawns in a Rom-com she gets to ship
Sarah is the mastermind of the plan. She’s the most culpable. The suggestion
Blaming Raidah to any extent is just weird. Her reasons for not trying to control who Jacob spends time with (which is generally a shitty thing to do in any relationship) may not have been the best, but that doesn’t make any of what happens her fault
Blaming Joe at all is outright messed up, as he’s the only one who has tried to stop it. Before, he’d objected to Joyce trying to set him up with Sarah. He had no reason to think there was some ongoing plan being undertaken that Jacob needed to be warned about.
Your mistaking agency for blame. The fact that there are people who could impact what will happen does not mean they each share blame for the result.
Thats an interesting argument. Its also what I was saying about Not condemning sarah
“The fact that there are people who could impact what will happen does not mean they each share blame for the result.”
Agreed But there is no clear criteria for blame assignment.
But Impact results Now, is all we can use as a criteria.
Im not saying Joe is fully responsible. I’m pointing out as this stage he an Sarah have an equal ability to stop it. ( which is not much ) Joe might have more. But he also has a hands off approach.
He hasnt told his roommate Joyce is trying to set him up with Sarah. If we did that, Jacob could ask Joyce and she would be honest. But Jacob would probably say he already knows ( as Joyce has promoted Sarah overtly. )
Sarah isnt the mastermind of the plan. ITs Joyces creation. Joyce is rarely deterred from her rom-com plans. Sarah is actually less culpable since she stopped overtly pursuing Jacob. This is Joyce’s train and she will ride it to the end.
She did tell Joyce once that she was giving up jacob. Joyce was undeterred.
If what Makes Sarah most culpable is Knowledge, that is now widely shared. If its blame for Not acting, thats also widely shared. If its blame for encouraging, thats also widely shared.
” Joyce is rarely deterred from her rom-com plans.”
I don’t have super strong feelings on this arc, but Joyce’s smugness after she meddled with Dorothy and Walky (re the pajama jeans, ending in something like ‘ooo, stumped an atheist) makes me want her to fail hard and learn not to meddle now.
The issue is not that Jacob could leave Raidah for Joyce but how they are both being manipulated into a relationship when they have made decisions contrary. That being said there is a difference between trying to match make because you genuinely think they would be good together (still sort of shitty without consent), and trying to match make for vindictive reasons and telling yourself they would be good together anyways to ease your guilt so no Becky and Joyce are not just as culpable as Sarah.
Also what is Raidah supposed to do about this? How does Raidah not trusting Jacob to make his own decisions make up for other people not respecting the decisions he’s already made?
Joe is trying to stop Joyce but doesn’t know how to and is now confronting Sarah because his best bet is if he can get Sarah to realize she’s hurting Joyce and Jacob as well and abort her plan.
By the way you forget to mention Billie you know a person this argument actually might work for.
Remind me about Billie. I thought there was someone else but I forgot who.
Joe hasnt warned Jacob.
“Also what is Raidah supposed to do about this”
Invite Joyce out sometime. Make it clear they are a couple. Socialize as a couple.
The problem here is you are granting something to Raidah you are not to Sarah. Raidah must have full faith and trust for Joyce and Jacob not to feel attraction, but Sarah shouldnt. Didnt jacob tell Raidah that he thinks Joyce has a crush on him?
Wait, just for clarification – do you suggest Raidah should invite Joyce out and remind her outright that she’s Jacobs girlfriend, or was that a typo and you meant she should take out Jacob some time?
Again the issue is not that Jacob could leave Raidah for Joyce, or that Joyce could develop a crush and have to deal with it, its the manipulation. And yes Becky and Joyce are essentially doing the same thing but for different reasons and genuinely believe someone is going to get a happily ever after out of this. Sarah can tell Joyce what she did including her realization that she and Jacob want different things and using Joyce’s shipping and a crush she did not know she had to hurt Raidah it will be painful but it will stop the manipulation. Raidah and Joe can’t do that without high risk that they will just make the issue worse. Joe can overtly tell them what’s going on and risk looking like the bad guy to try to convince people who trust Sarah more than him that Sarah’s manipulating them. Raidah can decide she needs to constantly mark her territory but two wrongs don’t make a right, she can also warn them but then she really looks like she has it out for Sarah and could just finish the job.
Billie caught on to what Sarah was doing let Sarah know and just sort of left it at that she might have helped Sarah a bit too.
This is so unfair to Joyce. If this succeeds she’ll probably feel unbearable guilt because she’s supposed to be helping Sarah, and I’m pretty sure “Thou shalt not covet” is a thing.
Sarah should know this, and she’s still going along with it. I’m keeping with my belief that Sarah is not a good person at all.
To be fair Joyce is not blameless, she was perfectly okay with breaking Raidah and Jacob up because Sarah deserved him more. It’s just that Joyce is more innocent about her hypocrisy while Sarah is more cold and manipulative.
Willis, could you please check up on the adds? On my iPhone, i cannot read the comments because the page redirects to some game of chance site.
Location is Germany and the add displays German text.
(Doesn’t happen with Firefox clear)
On another subject, it is me or is it the case that, when Sarah smiles, it’s mostly due to Joyce in some way. If Joyce achieves nothing else at college, I believe that she’s saved Sarah from her belief that happiness and a positive relationship with other people is impossible.
Meanwhile, if your nefarious plot is something Joe understands, then you probably need to think about having your moral compass serviced! It’s nice that Joe cares enough about Joyce that he isn’t happy with Sarah using her for her own ends.
I don’t know about anyone else, but Joe comes across as slightly menacing, here. Like, a physically-intimidating man is suddenly saying “I know X” while a woman has her back to him? It just kinda sketches me out a little.
I doubt that Joe could physically intimidate Sarah if he tried. However, he is using all the necessary non-verbal communication methods that he greatly disapproves of Sarah’s actions.
It must really hurt Joe to be honest. He was shaped into what he is by the fact that his father cheated on his mother. And now he sees Sarah trying to manipulate Joyce into making Jacob do the same.
Joe is generally honest. He’s been upfront about his awful behavior for quite awhile. It’s just that he didn’t understand just how hurtful he was being until it all came crashing down on him.
Some suggest above that Sarah will feel guilty because of that, but as she’s just smiling because she could cheer up Joyce a bit and help her, I honestly doubt it. I think she’ll maybe argue about something along the lines “It’s for Joyce too” or “It will make her happy”, or something.
There will be some point she may feel guilty, but I somehow get the feeling she’ll brush Joe off for now… (just commenting on what I expect to see tomorrow, not on any of the involved or uninvolved morals)
It’s always interesting to see the different ways people view relationships in their reaction to this plot line. Also, the question of what makes manipulation seems to have a lot of different answers.
There is ” Jacob is happy with Raidah, everyone should respect that”. Even though we do not know much about their relationship except that it exists and has been going on for a few weeks and Raidah is invested in Jacobs success (by guilt-tripping him). Is he happy with her? We cannot know. Is she happy with him? Dito.
And to some or all of those with this view, not indicating an interest in a person already in a relationship is a sign of respect, it seems. Why does it show respect not to make ones own feelings known? Respect of what or whom?
Also, if it shows respect to hide ones own interest in someone, how does one interact with such a person? Isn’t it unfair to not let them know?
There is “It is shitty of Sarah to hoodwink Joyce into going after Jacob while Joyce thinks she is keeping Sarah in play as a potential mate for Jacob”. Hm, we do know Sarah started this because she was jealous about Raidah being together with Jacob and not wanting Raidah to either be happy or in any way involved with her circle of people she is willing to stand next to. The latter is totally understandable from the way Raidah treats her whenever they meet. And on the way Sarah realized that what she wants from Jacob and what he wants from a relationship are totally different things. So she decided to renounce her own interest – but she didn’t tell Joyce about this. So we have Joyce happily falling for Jacob without noticing it herself.
Arguing that this is manipulation Joyce, hm, what exactly is the manipulation? Joyce runs on on her own because of her own ideas how the world should be. Is not telling her that the only thing the whole story might end up would be Joyce falling for Jacob and vice versa manipulation? Again, what exactly makes this manipulation?
And where is Jacob manipulated?
Is it manipulation of Raidah to create a situation where she might get jealous? I’m no really sure if manipulation is the word I would chose here, but yes this is actually not cricket. Sarah is rather sure that Raidah will disgrace herself when she gets jealous. So at least this creates a situation where Raidah is tested,and yes, having said this is would apply the world manipulation.
But everything else reminds me of the Dorothy Sayers approach to relationships: the trick is to not exist as not to influence your partner (or whoever) in an adverse way. But you cannot be a person that offers support, questions, friendship, fun, quality time or love without being there, wanting what you want, and therefore sometimes wanting different things that the friend or lover in question. And this is not manipulation!
Sarah is not nearly the innocent you’re painting her here. She’s still encouraging Joyce (or was up to before the church “date”, I don’t know if we’ve seen anything explicit since then) for her own purposes. It’s not just that she’s not stopping her.
As for respecting a relationship: Yeah, pretty much. Though it’s not so much “is happy with”, but “this is their relationship, their choice, don’t mess with it”. With potential exceptions when you actually have reason to believe the relationship is abusive or damaging in some way and you’re acting for their own good – which is explicitly not the case here for anyone’s motivation.
It would one thing if they were just innocently hanging out and emotions developed. That happens. It’s usually awkward and painful and doesn’t lead to good ends for anyone, but it does happen. It’s not happening here. Sarah, Joyce, Becky, even Billie are all intentionally attempting to break up the couple for their own reasons.
No real reason. She caught on to what Sarah was up to and helped out. I believe she was the one that got Joyce into the dress for church.
Mostly I think she just wants to feel useful to her friends. “Head cheerleader. Alpha bongo. Matchmaker.”
“And to some or all of those with this view, not indicating an interest in a person already in a relationship is a sign of respect, it seems. Why does it show respect not to make ones own feelings known? ”
that’s an interesting one. I think the answer is that there’s a big difference between making your feelings clear *once*, and letting them colour every little interaction. like, the “so tell me about sarah” thing let joyce use her words, and she did so, and that was a little awkward but seems to have gone okay. Usually it’s not quite so simple – what if letting them know at all makes them uncomfortable? what if they think (rightly or wrongly) that you’re going to be doing inappropriate things because of these feelings, or what if they feel bad about not being able to return them, or think you want them to manage them for you? .. so that’s why people go with trying to hide it as the simpler option, maybe?
here’s an example… I’ve had a crush on a boss before. he was happily married as well as being my boss, so there was no way I was going to act on those feelings, but they were still there. I didn’t see any point in talking about it (and didn’t have the capacity to do so gracefully back then anyways), but what I did do was avoid sitting next to him or otherwise being closer than necessary. I hid those feelings because they would get in the way of getting work done, and because broadcasting them would get in the way of everyone *else* getting work done too. And I didn’t want my boss having to worry about whether his employee would try to do something stupid. He could probably tell anyways – especially before I noticed it myself – but hopefully my continuing to act as professionally as I knew how reassured him that I could keep my mind on work.
otoh, when it’s obvious someone *else* has a crush on *me*… well, when I was younger and more innocent it didn’t bother me, but the more I learnt about the real world the more it did. 🙁 for a while, I had a lot of anxiety about guys liking me and how sad they must feel when I couldn’t return their feelings, and occasionally worries that they might start following me around and cause a scene (after one guy *did* start following me around after what I thought was “obviously” a one-night-stand). I’ve considered trying to be less friendly in general or dressing more conservatively because of it; it seems like me being myself in a good mood reads a lot like flirting. :/
I dunno, there’s a lot I haven’t figured out yet, but it turns out that professional behaviour has its uses, despite “hiding feelings” being a part of it. I guess that’s a boundaries thing too: showing everything to everyone is not healthy or safe. I wish it was. 😛
Darn English language. Does Joe believe it won’t work or is he amazed that it is working? Like “I can’t believe its not butter”, means that it isn’t butter and I totally know that, but its amazing and i’m OK with it.
Can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor. Wait, does that mean you should be careful not to put too much water in or that no matter how much you add its OK?
I would say he’s a little of both, but also kind of neutral. His concerns are for his friends and the fact that they’re being manipulated. He’d probably be fine with either Jacob staying with Raidah or breaking up with her and getting with Joyce, as long as it was done honestly and without cheating.
I’m not surprised Joe called her out on it and I’m really interested in how he will proceed with this seeing as I doubt Sarah is going to deny it after confirming it to both Becky and Billy. Then again Sarah hates everyone ,especially Joe, so I can’t say she won’t get defensive just because she doesn’t want him to be right either…
I think Sarah’s whole “I hate everyone shtick and I’m a thoroughly unpleasant person” edgelord shtick is sustainable precisely because she thinks she’s the unsung hero of the story. The put-upon college student who only wants the best for her friends and her career, who’ll do the right thing no matter how difficult it is.
What we’re seeing here is the true face of her mindset: when the chips are down, she’ll exploit even the most vulnerable person in the comic strip, a person who looks up to her as the big sister she never had. And she’ll do it to destroy a relationship without any clear justification whatsoever.
I should add Sarah’s characterization thus far shows no regret or even self-awareness that she’s taken a headlong leap into an ethical deadzone. If anything, she seems to think what she’s doing isn’t just acceptable, it’s righteous.
“ethical deadzone” is a bit much in a comic where we have a literal rapist, a man who would kidnap his own daughter to torture her and a man who abused his daughter so much she developed DID as a coping mechanism
Not saying Sarah is doing anything right, but she’s far from a monster or approaching a moral event horizon
Well that was why I didn’t say moral event horizon. Only that she’s in territory that’s outside the realm of ethically sound behavior. There is no rule book for what she’s doing right now. It’s in her interest to leave ASAP.
I do think Joe oughta ask himself why it’s working. Is it because Joyce is a master of seduction? Is it because Jacob likes to cheat? Is it because Sarah’s just that good at this? Or could it be that Jacob’s not happy with Raidah? A healthy couple that has no issues wouldn’t be torn apart just because a young, cute Christian girl is tossed into the mix. I get where Joe’s coming from, and there does need to be somebody to point out that ruining the relationship is fucked, because it is. However, I’m also in the camp that Raidah’s not a good person and Jacob needs to get out while he can. If he would be happier with Joyce, then by all means, break up with Raidah and continue getting closer with Joyce. Sarah however, should have no part in that and remain Jacob’s friend. I do think by this point that she’s given up on any relationship with Jacob because she realizes she’s just into him physically. At least I hope so…Sarah would be no better for Jacob than Raidah, if not worse.
Jacob mentioned to Raidah a while back that he’s had problems with jealous girlfriends in the past. I kind of wonder if that’s a hint that they did have something to be jealous about – not necessarily cheating, but the kind of flirty close friendship we see starting with Joyce, leading towards an actual romantic interest. Basically, if this is actually his pattern, whether he realizes it or not.
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Well shit. This is gonna be something.
Gotta say, the fact that it’s Joe is making this moment all the more delicious.
Yeah… this drama’s the good stuff. Hnnngggg…
Yessssss.
Joe has been a person misusing his intelligence and burying his feeling since the start of this strip. Now that he has nowhere else to go with his ‘tension’ it’s going in all sorts of different directions. I wonder if this little episode is going to require a clean-up though.
(inb4 Joe becomes the next Mike)
I think Joe is gonna head in a Joyce direction personally =3
In retrospect: yeah, that’s definitely the kind of thing Joe would notice.
The question is: is he going to do anything about it?
Doesn’t look like he plans to do anything but guilt Sarah into aborting the mission.
Fortunately, as we have seen, this works.
Question whether that behavior is guilt, or Sarah’s innate revulsion in the face of fake happiness.
Will Joyce overhear, or think Joe’s directing this at her? He’s about the same distance from her as he is from Sarah.
Bros before hoes? Or maybe he thinks Joyce would be a better match with Jacob and will let it happen, but still just wanted to make his feelings known about how disgusted he is by this
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. On one hand, I think he’s smart enough to see that Jacob and Joyce are definitely well-suited for each other. On the other hand, he might also have gained enough awareness about his past behaviour to realize that what Sarah’s doing is just as objectionable and offensive as how he used to treat women. So, he’s not going to do anything, but he just wants it known that he KNOWS what Sarah’s doing, and on some level, she’s no better than he was.
Joe could well be the Cassandra here, and might be smart enough to know it, that maybe nobody will listen to that truth coming out of his mouth. Ergo he won’t say it to anyone else, for now?
I think no. Because he’s lost faith in his judgment, but he still doesn’t like it.
Joe has standards. Not many, but he does have standards.
I’ve noticed that for the most part even the most disgusting people have lines they won’t cross. Hell from a fictional standpoint there’s the Marvel/DC Crossover event where Joker refused to work with the Red Skull. I believe is exact words were “I may be a dangerously unstable criminal psychopath… but I’m an American Psycopath!!”
Which is really full of hypocrisy, it’s like saying “I’m better than him because even if I WILL do this thing I won’t do it for those Reasons”. Joker kills and tortures people en masse and just because he does it out of insanity instead of racism doesn’t really make him better than Red Skull. It’s all just to make himself feel better. It reminds me that one quote from Ninth Doctor
“The Doctor: You let one go, but that’s nothing new. Every now and then, a little victim’s spared. Because she smiled, because he’s got freckles, because they begged. And that’s how you live with yourself. That’s how you slaughter millions. Because once in a while, on a whim, if the wind’s in the right direction, you happen to be kind.”
Joe is on the right side and Sarah is on the wrong side, and he’s saying it to her. I think we need to revisit “things I didn’t expect before becoming nuclear ash”.
Not, like, significantly before, though.
I’d have put it just after the Vikings won the Super Bowl, but before Hell froze over.
Hell freezes over regularly. It’s snowing there right now. check the URL in my user name if you don’t believe me.
That said, I expect its going to be. “Yeah. you don’t want Raidah to have what you think is yours. Like he’s property, bought and sold… Sound familiar?”
Huh, didn’t know Joe would be invested in this.
I suspect, given Joe’s family life, that playing games with relationships Might be a bit of a berzerk button for him.
ya think.
Good point!
A most excellent point!
The very reason Joe is Joe is because he’s invested in this.
He’s even gone into how he basically does the whole “no romantic attachments thing” b/c he seems to be *DEATHLY AFRAID* of hurting someone the way his dad hurt his mom-by cheating on her. A lot.
(This is also why he is SUPER PISSED at his dad dating Amber’s mom, b/c he does not trust his dad to not cheat.)
Sarah trying to get Jacob to cheat on Raidah is, like, something that Joe would very much be upset by.
I imagine the next panel of joe talking would be him saying that this would destroy everybody and everything involved. Joyce. Jacob. Their egos and views of themselves. As well as raidah too, sure. And Sarah herself as well.
She doesn’t want Jacob to cheat, just switch to someone better.
Sabatoging someone elses relationshipnis stilllll really bad tho
Putting someone in a goof, ahm, good light is not the same as sabotaging a relationship.
Sabotage means doing things to create misunderstandings and distrust between the people in the relationship, actual acts of shading the truth or lying to do so, ….
This is not what is happening. Sarah creates situation where Joyce meets Jacob and where she is seen in a favorable light.
And I rather suspect she thinks Raidah will behave like an utter asshole when she notices an attraction between Jacob and Joyce thus alienating Jacob. But this part of the plan depends on how Raidah is really like, so Sarah might be wrong about that (though from what we have seen, she might be right).
Her motivation is all but pure, sure, because she is invested in this because she doesn’t want Raidah to get the nice guy, but still. If all anyone ever committed because of envy was setting up situation where someone meets someone who might be a better match than their current partner, the world would be a vastly better place.
It’s still generally considered bad form to try and get in the middle of a couple (or polyfidelitous group). When two people become exclusive, they’re stating “I want to be with just this person” and throwing yourself at one is rude. It’s like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and repeatedly bringing them brochures for law school. It isn’t that law school is bad- the person has stated their wants and you need to respect it.
Pushing someone away from their partner and into a different relationship is still a violation of boundaries. It’s very much a “road to hell paved with good intentions”.
The world would be a MUCH better place if people could respect others’ life plans and just get on with their own. So much suffering is down to someone being told “What you want isn’t good enough, you have to do what I’ve decided is better”.
I think you’re projecting a bit. Besides, the metaphor doesn’t apply if the potential doctor had never considered law school. Maybe knowing more about it could influence their decision? If Mr. Tephor says “no i definitely want to be a doctor and law school and I should just be friends” then yeah the only decent thing to do is leave him be, but presenting the opportunity and letting fate take its course is okay, okay?
So it’s perfectly fine to attempt to seduce one member of a couple? No worries. It’s just “presenting the opportunity” and it’s purely the fault of the seduced if it works. The seducer is innocent of any wrong-doing.
that sounds like a rationalization for door-to-door salespeople, and they seem pretty universally hated.
but that’s not even what’s happening here. like, the “so tell me about sarah” part was a lot like that, but it hasn’t ended there. Joyce is still flirting and still in denial about it, and will probably bring up sarah to him again too (partly to keep herself in denial).
this is more like … like when the gym has the food channel on their TV 😛
@thejeff: No one is talking about seducing someone (and Joyce wouldn’t know where to start even if she wanted to).
It seems rather a large jump from showing an interest to seduction to me (though I admit, there are people who show interest only by trying to seduce, and I won’t defend those).
Joyce isn’t, but in Brumagem’s argument, seduction would apply as well as anything else. “presenting the opportunity and letting fate take its course”
Would literal seduction change the morality? It could be a slow enough process that there’s time to break up before any actual sex, to avoid the complication of cheating.
I call bullshit. Whatever your methods, the end result is the same. Ending the existing relationship.
It’s one thing to counsel a person who is unhappy with their relationship to end it – they can choose to accept your advice or not. But attempting to manipulate a person in an apparently happy relationship to leave that for another relationship is a crappy thing to do, whatever the motives.
^^^ this. Guys have willpower and judgement, having them meet someone new and cute is not ‘sabotaging their relationship’. That Sarah thinks it will work regardless says something about her opinion of the relationship in question.
willpower is a limited resource, and we have reason to believe (from Shortpacked) that Jacob is especially… disadvantaged in that area.
There are two questions here.
1) Is it an acceptable thing to try to break up a relationship for your own purposes? To get back at someone, because you want them yourself, because your friend wants them.
2) Or does it only matter how you go about it? As long as you don’t cross certain lines, the intentions don’t matter.
I’ve seen relationships break up over both kinds: a “friendly” seduction and more nasty manipulations. You know what? Both wind up being pretty damn miserable. And generally nobody gets what they want.
Nah, She wants to HURT Raidah.
This isn’t about “getting someone better for Jacob.”
This was never about that.
Don’t worry, Joe. It won’t work.
Epic hatefuck! Interracial epic hatefuck!
This was the plan all along! All is as Joe has foreseen!
DUNN DUNN DUUUUUUUUUN!
They say the Breaking Up Is Hard To Do…
The original, or 1970s remake? I guess the latter, if the plan is now “throw Joyce at Jacob”.
Now I’m imagining Sarah literally throwing Joice at Jacob the way Walky throws plastic toys at people.
Nah, this is more like a good Fastball Special. Except Joyce uses playful religious jokes instead of adamantium claws.
In all fairness, what Sarah is doing is super shitty and manipulative, and Jacob is legit Joe’s only friend that’s super low maintenance and chill.
I could totally see why Joe might take some exception to this.
He also is super against cheating due to his parents.
And likes Joyce enough that he probably doesn’t want to see her used.
But cares about Jacob enough to see that Raidah isn’t the right girl but Sarah could be
And found the letters proving that Mary is the long lost sister of Ruth, but Asma burned them because she was their parents CIA handler, and was present at the Korean mob hit orchestrated by Blaine and had to cover it up by faking a car accident. Can Joe retrieve the microfilm that Fuckface swallowed in time to clear Robin’s name, while still somehow attending the birthday parties of both Sierra and Leslie on the same day? Find out next week! Same Amazi-Time, same Amazi-Channel!
I can’t help it, I’m an eternal optimist. I’d give Lucy a run for her money at being happy!
Not that I think Jacob would cheat, but Joe seems extra sensitive to chasing other prospects when in a committed relationship. His parents divorce must have been hard on him.
“…Jacob is legit Joe’s only friend…”
Danny: “NOOOOO!”
“…that’s super low maintenance and chill.”
Danny: “…agreed.”
Maybe he’s seeing Sarah as legitimately liking Jacob and Raidah just using him for her own advantages
I think he is also jealous. *Has shipped Joe and Joyce since Roomies*
There is possibly an element of that. I do think it hurts his feelings to see Joyce fawn over Jacob and be shitty to him, particularly since they’d fostered something of a friendship, with Joyce confiding to Joe about her home life, and that seems to have largely stopped since Joyce has been aimed at Jacob. That’d be hurtful regardless of who you were, probably.
I doubt, even in Joe’s mind, that any change is linked to Joyce being aimed at Jacob.
He was a jerk to her in class, not being willing to pick up face to face where they’d been in texts.
The whole list thing came out and she was legitimately upset by that, but still connected to him.
And he contributed to the whole “breaking the toe” thing this morning, which is why she’s currently (unfairly) mad at him.
Doesn’t mean there isn’t some jealousy, but interest in Jacob being why she’s not so friendly with him doesn’t make sense to me.
Joe why must you spoil Sarah’s happiness with your TRUTH.
“How dare you try to get my friend to leave his surly unpleasant girlfriend for a person as kind as he is, you heartless harpy!”
Joe does not like cheating.
Joe REALLY does not like cheating. To the point where it appears *one* of the reasons he’s basically sworn off romantic attachments out of fear that he’s like his father, so that he won’t hurt people the way his dad hurt his mom.
Which was by cheating on her.
*A LOT*.
No, Joe’s pissed here b/c Sarah is *TRYING* to get Jacob to cheat. That is Her Entire Plan.
That, and we don’t have a whole lot of reason to think he knows Raidah much.
Raidah’s not really surly, that’s Sarah’s bag. Raidah’s outwardly pleasant to some people, but a condescending douche to others. Even if he’s met Raidah outside of a few pleasantries, he’s probably not been subjected to that much.
I figured it was more like she wanted Jacob to break up with Raidah than to get Jacob to see Joyce in secret on the side.
Or, “I’m not a fan of you manipulating my friend and using him as a pawn to hurt others”?
Also possibly an element of “Even I can tell Joyce isn’t in a good place right now, you know she’s not in a good place, and you’re still doing this?”
you just know he’s going to try and stick his oar in, and Joyce is going to react negatively because his input is counter to what she wants to hear, but she’s still going to eventually recognise its truth, and clusterfuck and sadness
Could be, but personally I don’t buy into that whole attitude that people need to be completely emotionally healthy and/or healed before getting into relationships. It’s not an endurance sport; you can still enjoy spending time with someone in a smooch-smooch romantickal way even if you heart all asplode.
but this isn’t about getting her into a relationship really, it’s about taking one away from Raidah. it’s the “using joyce as a pawn” that’s the shitty thing referred to by “and you’re still doing this?”
Sarah’s plan is for Joyce the pawn to be both promoted and sacrificed?
(I’ll show myself out now.)
Yes, and we can only hope that the other, less positive aspects of this little plot don’t leave the decent people crushed.
In other words, trying to end someone else’s (relatively happy)relationship when she has no right to interfere
Dunno about “right to” / But Raidah is vile / Dry humping on Joyce leg* / Would make Jacob smile
*By which I mean “chastely holding hands” of course
I agree that Joyce would be a better match for Jacob, but Sarah trying to end Jacob’s relationship ‘for his own good’ is just plain disrespectful and patronizing, and whether Jacob and Raidah’s relationship should be their decision to make instead of Sarah’s
Plus, the vileness of a person doesn’t excuse the immoralness of an action taken against them
“”How dare you emotionally manipulatete your little sis to end a relationship
Joe might be a recovering womanizer, but he still clearly has some morals. Maybe having him of all people call her out on this will make Sarah realize how what she’s doing, while nice for Joyce and maybe even Jacob, is still kind of awful
I gotta break it to you: not-womanizing isn’t the only moral out there people can have.
Cheating is a hot-button issue for Joe, because his father’s serial adultery ended his parents’ marriage. He’s afraid he’ll inevitably follow that pattern himself.
His strategy for dealing with it is basically a Roll Safe meme that says “you can’t cheat if the relationship isn’t serious”. As we all know, we think we’re always making the best choices possible in college, after all we have a couple years’ experience in adulting under our belts.
the law says I am legally an adult, therefore, I know everything I need to about adulting!
(hahahahano)
Now, the real test…will the fact that Joe’s the one saying this cause her to dismiss it as ‘typical Joe bullshit’, or give it extra weight from the ‘holy fucking shit, Joe has the moral high ground, here?’ factor.
Probably the latter, especially since this is a side of Joe she’s really not been around for that I know of.
I’m hoping for an extended bit of dialogue for two more strips, personally. Enough to back-and-forth a little, let Sarah dig herself a hole, give Joe some room to explain why he’s going to react the way he is.
Hoping for two. Probably only going to get one.
I’m going to guess both. She’ll dismiss it and call Joe a prick, then later on his words will linger/haunt her conscience.
Oh, good call. I could certainly see it going that way.
*butchering Flo Rida’s song by singing it* IT’S GOIN’ DOWN FOR REAL!
Well, this strip confirms it. I denied it for far too long. I just didn’t want to believe it was true but… it’s about time I face the music: I, Deadjolras, am a Joe fan.
(ialsoshiphimwithjoyce, oh god what is happening to me, i didn’t mean for this to happen)
perfect gravatar
in retrospect, choosing Joe as my gravatar was a pretty big clue
I too am a Joe fan because I’m a sucker for flawed characters redeeming themselves. (and I too ship Joece because I’m a sucker for text messaging intimacy)
THERE ARE DOZENS OF US. DOZENS.
Add me to that mailing list.
Me too.
I love sly “New Danny” gravatar joining the Joe fan club.
Joe is morally in the right here but at the same time I think Raidah is a horrible person so…
“I don’t have to behave morally towards those who (I’ve convinced myself) don’t deserve it” is very, very dangerous ground.
That’s why its a trope that movies begin with a person self-identifying as a villian by doing something evil. After that, the good people can do as they please to the villian without being evil themselves.
Forget Raidah, Sarah’s doing Joyce an injustice. That may be what Joe is more concerned about rather than an abstract disapproval of cheating.
If JOE calls you out for doing something unethical related to sex, you… are either at rock bottom or drilling yourself THROUGH said rock bottom.
Outside of like, the Ryan thing, I think the only time he’s been in that position was chiding Danny for being patronizing in regards to how he handled Billie coming onto him strongly. (Though I suspect Danny was motivated more due to looking for an excuse to not do it out of already having feelings for Amazi-Girl and to a lesser extent Amber)
Beyond that, not directly related, but he did also call out Walky for his sitcom-y fragile masculinity on the subject of shoes, and that he was being an idiot. I could very well be missing more, though.
It’s amazing how Joe’s masculinity can be so secure and yet so fragile. Joe is just full of contradictions, isn’t he.
He is honestly one of the most complicated main characters in this strip. I didn’t really think much of him, initially, but between his friendship with Danny, his evolving friendship with Joyce, and his stuff with his dad, we’ve gotten a look at a lot of layers for what looked like a dudebro initially.
I’m very curious as to what happens now. I am also really wondering how much Joe really even knows Raidah. I don’t think he’d EVER bless Sarah’s plan, and on principal, finds cheating abhorrent, but I wonder if that will play into things any. Lot of interesting possibilities here.
See, people are assuming it won’t work because Jacob won’t cheat.
But…
that’s not what’s going to happen.
Jacob trusts Raidah.
Jacob seems to enjoy spending time, but he’s basically Dorothy, as previously stated.
And Dorothy broke up with Danny “For his own good”
Jacob wouldn’t cheat on Raidah.
But Raidah?
Whose friends are already stoking the fires of paranoia?
Whose own insecurities are already at play?
What happens when she thinks that Jacob is enjoying spending time with Joyce more than with her?
I’m not saying she’s going to cheat on him. Okay, I might have implied it, fair point, but my point now is.
What’s she’s doing isn’t about getting Jacob or Raidah to cheat on each other.
It’s playing off of Raidah’s insecurities to make her ACCUSE Jacob of cheating.
Something much smaller and much more easily manageable, that can have drastic consequences for a relationship.
And then, they’ll break up. Because as good of a guy as Jacob is, he doesn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t trust him.
And based purely on the principle that drama is a thing that happens in this webcomic, he figures out that Sarah set the whole thing up just about 5-10 seconds before they actually get together because she’s there to console him.
Sarah’s like Iago to Raidah’s Othello, except with VERY different motivations, and much less racist tones. Of course, Raidah’s not really depicted as someone honorable even before this wedge has been driven in.
Love Joe’s face in this. Also dammit why is Joe morally correct what universe are we in now?
stupid universe keeps correcting itself, damnit.
I really hope something happens with Raidah, so Sarah’s actions are … well, seen in a better light I guess. WE’VE seen Raidah for the crappy person that she is, but Joe doesn’t know about that. Neither does Jacob.
I’m probably going to get yelled at for this comment. Eh.
It doesn’t matter if Raidah is a crappy person or not. Manipulating someone because you think you know what’s best for them is a horrible and insulting thing to do.
See above. Immoral actions do not become moral when done to someone “deserving”.
What immoral things has Sarah done? Has she badmouthed Raidah to Jacob, arranged compromising situations, literally anything at all?
Using Joyce as an unwitting pawn in the hopes that Jacob will break off his relationship with Raidah, for the sole purpose of hurting raidah, whilst ignoring the feelings of Jacob and Joyce, and ignoring the fact that Joyce will probably feel very upset on discovering that sarah pushed her into it
Also, what Felis leo said underneath
I don’t think Raidah’s crappiness warrants sabotaging her relationship. It’s worse than just trying to break up Jacob and Raidah (which Joyce also wanted to do). It’s vindictive and it’s using Jacob and Joyce (and their chemistry) as tools. Raidah treats Sarah crappy because Raidah thinks Sarah uses people like they’re disposable.
I like Sarah and her charming cynicism. But she shouldn’t become the person Raidah thinks she is. If she’s going to undermine Raidah’s relationship, she could just tell Jacob why they don’t get along. It’s still a bit vindictive to try to break them up, but it’s not using other people like disposable tools.
I don’t know what yall are talking about. I mean all Sarah’s doing is motivating Joyce to spend time with Jacob. Whatever they do with eachother is their decision, it’s not like Sarah can magically make them want to fuck. Also, what cheating? Who said Jacob’s gonna cheat? He can just break up with Raidah before getting jiggy with Joyce.
Sarah can’t control their actions, but that doesn’t mean her actions and motives are pure. She’s trying to use Joyce to use Jacob to hurt Raidah. Whether she’s successful or not, that’s not great.
Motivating joyce to spend time with Jacob will potentially cause Raidah to become jealous and cause her to break up with Jacob, or cause Jacob to cheat (not likely) with Joyce and then dump Raidah. Either way, its manipulative and it shows Sarah using other people as pawns so she can hurt Raidah
Yes, but she’s motivating Joyce under false pretenses. Joyce still thinks she’s on a mission to hook up Sarah and Jacob (which in retrospect is its own moral can of worms), while Sarah has clearly abandoned that and just wants Jacob to break up with Raidah, purely as a “fuck you” to Raidah. It’s great that Joyce is having fun with Jacob yes, but the entire reason they started to hang out is because Joyce is also trying to play matchmaker. Knowing Joyce’s character, she’d spend time with Jacob even if Jacob was a jerk, if that’s what she thought Sarah wanted.
No matter if they’re a wonderful couple, it’s a deceitful way to draw them together. No matter how big of a jerk he is, on this one occasion, Joe has the high ground.
There’s a thing in Purity Culture called emotional cheating, where even if you do nothing, merely thinking about a person other than your single SO is a sin. There’s no evidence that Jacob believes in this, but Joyce probably does. She probably also hasn’t examined her belief that when a man lusts after a woman, it’s the woman’s fault. So if Joyce finds out about all this, she will be angry with Sarah. If she thinks Sarah’s plot has been slightly successful, she will feel guilty. This has a lot of potential to hurt Joyce.
Deconstructed, not examined. She’s been examining it. I hope it’s not a large part of her fear of going outside alone, but it’s probably there.
But Joyce does know about this. Sarah hasn’t exactly been quiet about her motives, here, and Joyce, herself, is doing it to break up Jacob and Raidah, in order to get Jacob together with Sarah.
Not that makes what they’re doing fine and dandy, since it’s still fucking with Jacob and Raidah, just saying that they’re both acting like worse people than we know they are, and contradicting their own moral beliefs.
Not quite. Joyce is deliberately and mostly honestly putting forward a case for Jacob to choose to be with Sarah. Her dishonesty (as has so often been the case with her) is primarily to herself–she’s not admitting that she’s attracted to Jacob on her own part, and so she continues to make nudges about Sarah–when she isn’t distracted by the Chocolate Six-Pack.
I wouldn’t phrase it like that, but emotional cheating is at least risky as hell for a relationship. A lot of physical cheating and/or breakups start that way. Build an emotional connection to the new person, neglect maintaining the old one and suddenly, without ever intending to cheat, you’re “in love” with the new one and not with the old.
I’m actually kinda hoping it does work, because Raidah is a jerk and Jacob deserves better.
Glad Joe is saying something.
Sarah is doing a shitty, petty thing to two people she likes.
If this was Roz, Mary or Malaya instead of Sarah, we wouldn’t be rooting her on.
I mean, people were rooting Roz on when she was kind of trying to manipulate her sister. She did have a bigger endgame, though.
Did she though? I mean I guess you can frame it as a big political move against the GOP or some noble way to make Robin admit her sexuality, but to me it still seemed like a pretty petty move just to bring her sister down (not to mention catching Leslie in the crossfire and leaving her to just be embarrassed).
There’s probably a mix of things. She has her motives against her sister on a smaller scale, and she’s opposed to what her sister does to other people with the power she has. I don’t think it has to be one or the other, or even like, “She tells herself she’s motivated by politics, but really this is sibling rivalry.”
Robin was supporting legislation that would strip rights and protections from LGBT people.
That’s more than enough to justify plotting against her and trying to end her career. The fallout on Leslie seemed to me like it was an unforeseen consequence, not something where she had specifically realized it could happen but didn’t care.
Though I think that even if Mary were behind this, there would still be a number of people who’d feel conflicted about it simply because Joyce and Jacob seem like they’d make such an adorable couple.
I still think the actual intent was to get Robin to realize she’s queer and change her politics that one, rather then to out her and ruin her career.
That was just a fall back plan.
Yeah, that was plan A, and what she pitched to Leslie. Though even if she very rapidly did a 180 on her shitty political stances, that would likely have tanked her political career as well. I don’t see her keeping the GOP endorsement in that scenario, even if she stayed in the closet.
But my main point was that removing Robin from office was more than just petty revenge on her sister. Robin may not be as bigoted as Roy Moore, but she was going to tow the same party line that he would’ve if he’d won. Roz was completely right to be happy that her career tanked.
It totally wasn’t an unforeseen circumstance, Roz specifically started planning after she saw Leslie dressing upand getting the hots for Robin.
That doesn’t mean Roz would’ve realized that Robin being caught in public with Leslie could’ve caused problems for Leslie.
People were rooting for Sarah to a degree when she was the one gunning for Jacob, since we’re privy to Raidah’s deplorable behavior. (inaction with her friend’s drug abuse running her life into a hole, lashing out at the person who actually did anything about it, shitty behavior towards other characters with like the one redeeming trait being her chastising a friend for using the R word towards Dina, but really doing nothing about the sentiment beyond that).
Though, certainly, dragging Joyce into it is adding another layer of moral problems. That’s a whole other person, and someone who has considerable trust and faith in Sarah.
I’m really not sure why so many people are saying Sarah wants Jacob to cheat on Raidah. Sarah doesn’t need Jacob to cheat on Raidah in order for her plan to work. She just needs Jacob to break up with Raidah. If Jacob develops feelings for Joyce to a sufficient extent that he breaks it off with Raidah, Sarah wins.
Is that manipulative? Yes. Is it a crappy thing to do to Raidah? Yes, this plan is meant to hurt her. Is it a crappy thing to do to Jacob? No, because Jacob is a grown ass man who can make his own choices.
Trying to sabotage someone else’s seemingly happy relationship is not a good thing. Sure, we can argue all day long that whatever happens is Jacob and Joyce’s decision, that nobody’s forcing Jacob to cheat, that there’s no guarantee that Jacob will cheat anyway, etc.
But that doesn’t take away from the fact that Sarah knows (and Becky as well, I think) that Jacob is in a relationship, and she’s still trying to manipulate events so he’ll end up falling for Joyce instead and, by extension, manipulating him. Whether that leads to cheating or Jacob breaking up with Raidah to be with Joyce or even nothing at all, her intentions are still to mess up with someone else’s relationship.
I think what tips it over the edge of unethical for me is that Joyce doesn’t know about Sarah’s endgame. I’d say it’s fair for one party to intentionally try to attract someone in a relationship (because you can’t “steal” someone’s partner, say it with me now). But Joyce is in denial that she’s even doing this, and will be very upset when she realizes that Sarah pushed her to it.
I agree that bringing Joyce into it makes it worse. I don’t know if it’s okay to try to attract someone in a relationship, because while their decision is their decision, it still seems disrespectful.
I also have a question for you, where I’m really just wondering your thoughts and not trying to argue about it or anything:
Say Sarah’s plan had stayed that she would get with Jacob, and she was successful and he ended up cheating on Raidah with her. What would be your view of Sarah’s ethicalness in that situation?
If Sarah managed to attract Jacob such that he broke up with Raidah for her, I’d see no problem with that. If he cheated on her with Sarah though… it gets a little complicated and honestly quite subjective. I don’t set too much store by absolute monogamy so cheating and all the deception it entails doesn’t make sense to me – people should just be upfront about who they’re attracted to is how I see it. Given the kind of person Jacob is, cheating on his girlfriend would probably harm him as much as it harmed the girlfriend. If Sarah enabled him despite that just to hurt Raidah, yeah it would be unethical because you can’t even justify that by positing that it’s making one couple in the equation happy.
Oh, yes, there’s definitely that too! Like Yumi said in another thread, “[Sarah’s] trying to use Joyce to use Jacob to hurt Raidah.” The endgame here is not “get Joyce and Jacob to smooch so they can be happy together” (that’s what Joyce consciously believes she’s doing, except, y’know, replace ‘Joyce’ with ‘Sarah’). The actual objective is “get Joyce and Jacob together just to hurt Raidah“. Raidah is an unpleasant person and Jacob may deserve better, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that both him and Joyce are being used as tools to harm someone else. There are no good intentions here (not from Sarah’s side, at least).
If Jacob breaks up with Raidah to be with Joyce, Raidah is going to be laser-focused on destroying Joyce in every meaningful sense for disrupting her power-couple plan.
She’s making Joyce a pawn in a petty and vindictive game.
I’d say it’s still a crappy thing for Jacob. Even if everything works out peachy for him, he’s still being manipulated. Maybe it’s just me, but if I found out one day that my perfect girlfriend and I only met because I was just a pawn in a revenge plot by a 3rd party, I’d be pissed.
Whatever your opinions on monogamy, do you believe that it is either moral or ethical for someone to direct their time and energy into intentionally intermeddling with what appears to be a perfectly happy relationship simply because one has an animus against a person in that relationship? Would you accept such an action as perfectly reasonable if you found out that someone was trying to manipulate events to create a situation in which your significant other was tempted into either breaking up with or cheating on you (even if your significant other does not give into such temptation)?
If you were asking me… I think acting with the sole purpose of hurting someone else is malicious so definitely not ethical. I do however believe in people’s right to consensually act on desire, though of course other parties should be treated kindly and with fairness. My problem with absolute monogamy is it often makes that kindness impossible because people get too caught up in the guilt of being attracted to other people and can’t be honest with their partners.
Why is everybody making comments like “WOW can you believe it JOE is having morals, who even KNEW?”
Joe has never, not once, been malicious or intentionally cruel. He’s not always patient, or kind, or gentle or whatever, but he’s always been earnest and upfront.
(I think I just convinced myself that joe is actually a Paladin lmao)
Jewish Paladin. I’d like to see that class (Outside of South Park the Stick of Truth).
Joe has never deliberately hurt anybody, no, and even genuinely wants to avoid that, but his moral screen is so skewed that he does so anyway. His attempts to distance himself from people manifest in such fucked up ways, he hurt people, despite his desire not to. Hopefully, the wakeup call he’s been given sticks and he does manage to be the man he’s always thought he was.
He’s not a bad person, but he’s a person who’s had a bad moral framework, that caused harm to everyone around him.
This is a long running webcomic, so I may have forgotten some of the earlier drama. Who did Joe hurt again, apart from the time when his secret list got leaked?
Okay, I’m calling it. The relationship drama that typically happens on Valentine’s day will be the shitstorm that comes out from Sarah’s plot
Nah, that’s happening on Valentine’s Day 2025. It needs at LEAST 4 comic days to develop.
This week’s Valentine Day is going to be the Walky/Dorothy breakup.
*this year’s
Or it could be Walky trying to break up with Dorothy, Dorothy explaining why they should stay together, and everything ends happy ever after!
…
…
…Nah, who am I kidding? There’s no way that’ll ever happen.
Too late, Joe. Even if Sarah gives up entirely, there’s real attraction there. I don’t see Jacob cheating–he’s waaaaaay too wholesome and good–but I do see an “it’s not you, it’s me” chat coming up eventually.
Joe seems inclined to agree, he did say it’s going to work. I wonder which is causing his scornful look more: the relationship stuff we know for a fact he dislikes strongly, or, that Joyce is a pawn in it not so very long after their heart to heart about, well, treating women like people. Joyce is a game token right now, not a person, at least, not entirely.
I think he’s mostly upset that its working, that Joyce who’s supposed to be better than that is falling for an attached man. He’s also upset that Joyce’s plan is sort of not the best either. I think he also doesn’t like how freaking difficult its going to be to tell Joyce that she’s actually flirting with Jacob even if they don’t realize it yet, also trying to manipulate someone in a relationship to date your friend instead is sort of a crappy move anyways.
I agree. Why do people think that Jacob cheating on Raidah is the logical outcome to this situation? Jacob hasn’t been shown to be that kind of person, and Joyce definitely isn’t that kind of person. Sarah wants to hurt Raidah, sure, but this could just as easily be done by the “it’s not you, it’s me” break-up.
Yeah, no one’s going to be cheating here. (What would that be in Joyce’s mind anyway? Holding hands?)
Break up is the plan.
I don’t know that Joe is trying to STOP this. Maybe he’s just calling it out.
Joe… seems to care. I don’t understand.
I mean, Joe has never been actively evil, just very self-involved and rarely observant enough to notice the consequences of his actions. But to notice the consequences of other people’s actions?
Other commenters, particularly AeromechanicalAce, have noted that he’s sensitive to affairs and affair-like matters because of his adulterous dad. Seems like the case.
If said consequences have the possibility of including cheating or something similar to it, then, yes, Joe will notice and care enough to get involved.
I don’t want to repeat what others’ have said already but, basically, his dad’s rampant cheating destroyed his marriage to Joe’s mum and left Joe with significant emotional scars, and that’s why he cares now.
I’m also remembering this moment…
“What was I, Joe, before I hurt you?”
*Joe runs away*
I wonder if Joe knows that Joyce is unaware of this whole setup. Or has she wised up yet (I can’t recall)?
Joyce is aware in so far as she knows Raidah is not good folk, but I do not believe she has cottoned onto the fact the game has shifted from Sarah to Joyce as to who he’d be paired with.
Becky knows, Billie knows I thiiink, I think Dorothy does, I forget if she’s been present for the machinations, but Joyce seems to be in the dark.
If everyone knows but Joyce, there’s gonna be a lot of frayed friendships. 🙁
I think that there is a difference between what Becky a Sarah are doing. What Becky is doing is more analogous to what Joyce thinks she is doing: Playing matchmaker to set their friend up with a dude that the friend likes.
Sarah isn’t doing this because she thinks that Joyce and Jacob would be super happy together, she is doing it to hurt Raidah. Becky’s motivation is much more likely to be tied to Joyce’s happiness and the fact that Joyce and Jacob seem like a good fit for each other.
It is still not great to be manipulative, but I don’t think it is the sort of manipulation that Joyce would be devistated by. Matchmaking is something Joyce is fond of and I don’t think that the fact that Becky approaches it differently than she does would upset her that much.
Joyce is completely aware of the plan. She’s actively working to get Jacob and Sarah together. She’s discussed this with Joe, looking for tips on the Wooing Arts.
She has, of course, no interest in him personally. This is just her helping out a friend. Really.
You know the worst part? I kinda agree with Joe and Sarah here. I think Raidah, based on what we see and know of her, is a horrible match for Jacob and not much of a decent human being in general. I also think that Jacob and Joyce, based on their interactions, actually COULD be good for each other. Potentially, at least. But what Sarah is doing and why feels way too manipulative and would really hurt her friendship with Joyce if it came to light. Its another Ruth/Billie situation- I kinda want the ship to happen, but all the surrounding bullshit and lingering issues make it a very tense thing to ship.
True all of that. And Sarah’s actions don’t just feel too manipulative, they are manipulative.
Maybe I’m forgetting something obvious, but. . . how does Joe know that Sarah is pushing Joyce to interact more with Jacob? An admittedly quick and brief mental/archive review suggests that every time, from Joe’s perspective, it’s been Joyce on her own initiative trying to do stuff with Jacob (and/or push Sarah together with Jacob).
Or Jacob inviting more interaction on his own initiative (he invites Joyce to his church, after all)
I think it’s just a thing where Joyce is kind of blind/oblivious to what Sarah’s doing, but Joe can see it. He’s shallow, but he knows relationships, and he’s from a broken home where he’s probably watched his dad pull some scummy moves that might resemble what’s happening here.
The only thing Joyce is unaware of is that Sarah wants her to get together with Jacob, and that’s only because she’s so laser-focused on the idea of getting Sarah and Jacob together. She is perfectly aware of the fact that she is involved in a plot to break up Jacob and Raidah.
Nah.
Joyce is unaware thats she is actively courting jacob for herself.
Sarah is aware of it ( as is Joe, Becky, Raidahs friends ) .
and Joyce is unaware that Sarah approves of Joyces attraction.
Joe interacts with Jacob and Joyce a lot in different contexts. Joe knows what Raidah thinks of Sarah, and Joe’s in enough classes with Sarah to know that she’s into Jacob.
Joe might not take a particularly enlightened view of relationships, but he’s fairly aware of their mechanics and decently intelligent besides.
Wait, since when is Joe in any classes with Sarah?
She’s sophomore pre-law, he’s freshman (has he declared a major?). They’ve certainly never interacted in class – looking through the joe+sarah tag, most of the strips are in the dining halls, and the others are in liminal areas, like the foyer or street.
I think its because he knows everyone fairly well.
He is good friends and work out buddies with jacob. He knows hes happy with Raidah.
He is secret texting Buddies with Joyce
He talked with Joyce about her not trying to break then up for Sarah.
He sees Joyce in crush mode with Jacob.
He knows her well enough to know what this looks like and has seen her personality switch in front of him.
And finally He cynically ( and partially correctly ** ) understand Sarah as the ( sexually ) experienced Sophomore and Joyce as the Doe eyed Innocent Ingenue in the opening ARC of the strip. ( When he Fail-dated Joyce and tried to hook Sarah up with Danny.)
Plus he is probably privy to a little inside man gossip of Jacob / Sarah and the Raidah/Sarah dynamic.
Despite Joes many, many flaws he has a high potential social intelligence ( he used purely too hook up ) . Whats he lacking in self reflection and introspection he makes for UM Game* . If Joe just used his socialgraph powers for good, he would make a great matchmaker and party thrower.
His Other intuition is fantastic. Hes was just misusing is as narcissistic douchbage.
*( i hate using that word but cant think of the string of psych words of gamifying social intelligence that equals shallow popularity ) Maybe social Intuition and shallow But high emotional intelligence
how long before jacob catches on to what sarah’s really trying to do?
Jacob still hasn’t caught on to what Raidah’s really like.
And I’ll clarify here that I don’t expect Raidah to be entirely unsympathetic once Willis takes some time to focus on her background.
From what we know of her so far, she’s from a black Muslim family. Her parents were likely movement figures back in the day, but transitioned into the professional world, quite likely law practice. She’s under a fair bit of pressure to do the same, and since Jacob is pre-law she sees a potential power couple there.
In a lot of ways, Raidah is seeking something very similar to what Joyce thought she was going to college for. To find a husband that lets her achieve what her parents have told her is the ideal adult life. It’s just that the cultural context that she’d get from high-achieving black professional parents is not quite the MRS that Joyce had envisioned (and is currently starting to re-examine).
Just a note that Raidah isn’t black. I’m fairly sure she’s South Asian.
…. well, Joe ISN’T dying in the street, so maybe he’s allowed to acknowledge Sarah’s existence?
Okay, but Sarah’s happy face in panel 2 is adorable
And just like that my conscience catches up with me…😔
Condemn Sarah if you want, but Becky, Joe, Raidah, and Joyce are equally culpable if not more so.
To believe Sarah is a culpable Svengali, is to Place the moral utility of actively interfering with another to try stop them, above the morality not Interfering.
Joyce isnt Innocent here.
She is strongly attracted to Jacob and is knowingly spending time with jacob with break up his relationship. She just has fooled herself that its for the Best and that she is doing it for Sarah.
Sarah actually believes JOyce and Jacob are a better match, and has been encouraging Joyce what she is already doing.
Sarah had nothing to do with Joyce mooning over jacob nor Joyce going to the exercise room.
It was all Joyce’s idea. Sarah could have tried to stop it ( and it might not have worked ). It didnt work when she told Joyce to break up with Ethan.
Raidah was warned by her friends and could have stopped it, but her sense of superiority blinded her. Becky saw the attraction and has mid-wifed it along; far more than Sarah.
and Now Joes sees it , and hasnt warned Jacob.
Jacob and Joyce arent pawns. They are choosing to spend time with each other.
Sarah might be guilty in her own mind because she more experienced. Yet that same experience has taught her that Interference usually doesnt work and backfires.
Sarah might also be guilty in her own mind of violating her strongest ethics of not getting involved with teenage drama. Even though it was Joyce that created this.
No matter Sarah does now she will be interfering. The only person who might be able to get Joyce to think clearly on this is Dorothy.
The worse case scenario is this blows up in Joyces face after multiple people have warned her. Thus Joyce learns that humans arent pawns in a Rom-com she gets to ship
Sarah is the mastermind of the plan. She’s the most culpable. The suggestion
Blaming Raidah to any extent is just weird. Her reasons for not trying to control who Jacob spends time with (which is generally a shitty thing to do in any relationship) may not have been the best, but that doesn’t make any of what happens her fault
Blaming Joe at all is outright messed up, as he’s the only one who has tried to stop it. Before, he’d objected to Joyce trying to set him up with Sarah. He had no reason to think there was some ongoing plan being undertaken that Jacob needed to be warned about.
Your mistaking agency for blame. The fact that there are people who could impact what will happen does not mean they each share blame for the result.
“Your mistaking agency for blame.”
Thats an interesting argument. Its also what I was saying about Not condemning sarah
“The fact that there are people who could impact what will happen does not mean they each share blame for the result.”
Agreed But there is no clear criteria for blame assignment.
But Impact results Now, is all we can use as a criteria.
Im not saying Joe is fully responsible. I’m pointing out as this stage he an Sarah have an equal ability to stop it. ( which is not much ) Joe might have more. But he also has a hands off approach.
He hasnt told his roommate Joyce is trying to set him up with Sarah. If we did that, Jacob could ask Joyce and she would be honest. But Jacob would probably say he already knows ( as Joyce has promoted Sarah overtly. )
Sarah isnt the mastermind of the plan. ITs Joyces creation. Joyce is rarely deterred from her rom-com plans. Sarah is actually less culpable since she stopped overtly pursuing Jacob. This is Joyce’s train and she will ride it to the end.
She did tell Joyce once that she was giving up jacob. Joyce was undeterred.
If what Makes Sarah most culpable is Knowledge, that is now widely shared. If its blame for Not acting, thats also widely shared. If its blame for encouraging, thats also widely shared.
” Joyce is rarely deterred from her rom-com plans.”
I don’t have super strong feelings on this arc, but Joyce’s smugness after she meddled with Dorothy and Walky (re the pajama jeans, ending in something like ‘ooo, stumped an atheist) makes me want her to fail hard and learn not to meddle now.
The issue is not that Jacob could leave Raidah for Joyce but how they are both being manipulated into a relationship when they have made decisions contrary. That being said there is a difference between trying to match make because you genuinely think they would be good together (still sort of shitty without consent), and trying to match make for vindictive reasons and telling yourself they would be good together anyways to ease your guilt so no Becky and Joyce are not just as culpable as Sarah.
Also what is Raidah supposed to do about this? How does Raidah not trusting Jacob to make his own decisions make up for other people not respecting the decisions he’s already made?
Joe is trying to stop Joyce but doesn’t know how to and is now confronting Sarah because his best bet is if he can get Sarah to realize she’s hurting Joyce and Jacob as well and abort her plan.
By the way you forget to mention Billie you know a person this argument actually might work for.
Remind me about Billie. I thought there was someone else but I forgot who.
Joe hasnt warned Jacob.
“Also what is Raidah supposed to do about this”
Invite Joyce out sometime. Make it clear they are a couple. Socialize as a couple.
The problem here is you are granting something to Raidah you are not to Sarah. Raidah must have full faith and trust for Joyce and Jacob not to feel attraction, but Sarah shouldnt. Didnt jacob tell Raidah that he thinks Joyce has a crush on him?
Wait, just for clarification – do you suggest Raidah should invite Joyce out and remind her outright that she’s Jacobs girlfriend, or was that a typo and you meant she should take out Jacob some time?
The first. With jacob together as a couple.
Shes been told Joyce has a crush on Him, and her friends dont trust her.
and Joyce is roommates with Sarah her nemesis.
She should try being ‘couple friends’ to send that message.
What? No! What is this ridiculousness?!
Joyce knows Jacob and Raidah are a couple. Raidah shouldn’t have to do anything else on that front. What is this madness?
Again the issue is not that Jacob could leave Raidah for Joyce, or that Joyce could develop a crush and have to deal with it, its the manipulation. And yes Becky and Joyce are essentially doing the same thing but for different reasons and genuinely believe someone is going to get a happily ever after out of this. Sarah can tell Joyce what she did including her realization that she and Jacob want different things and using Joyce’s shipping and a crush she did not know she had to hurt Raidah it will be painful but it will stop the manipulation. Raidah and Joe can’t do that without high risk that they will just make the issue worse. Joe can overtly tell them what’s going on and risk looking like the bad guy to try to convince people who trust Sarah more than him that Sarah’s manipulating them. Raidah can decide she needs to constantly mark her territory but two wrongs don’t make a right, she can also warn them but then she really looks like she has it out for Sarah and could just finish the job.
Billie caught on to what Sarah was doing let Sarah know and just sort of left it at that she might have helped Sarah a bit too.
This is so unfair to Joyce. If this succeeds she’ll probably feel unbearable guilt because she’s supposed to be helping Sarah, and I’m pretty sure “Thou shalt not covet” is a thing.
Sarah should know this, and she’s still going along with it. I’m keeping with my belief that Sarah is not a good person at all.
To be fair Joyce is not blameless, she was perfectly okay with breaking Raidah and Jacob up because Sarah deserved him more. It’s just that Joyce is more innocent about her hypocrisy while Sarah is more cold and manipulative.
It also helps that Joyce’s motivation isn’t, you know, vindictiveness.
Yeah, it’s still a shitty thing to do but not nearly as shitty as what Sarah wants.
Willis, could you please check up on the adds? On my iPhone, i cannot read the comments because the page redirects to some game of chance site.
Location is Germany and the add displays German text.
(Doesn’t happen with Firefox clear)
On another subject, it is me or is it the case that, when Sarah smiles, it’s mostly due to Joyce in some way. If Joyce achieves nothing else at college, I believe that she’s saved Sarah from her belief that happiness and a positive relationship with other people is impossible.
Meanwhile, if your nefarious plot is something Joe understands, then you probably need to think about having your moral compass serviced! It’s nice that Joe cares enough about Joyce that he isn’t happy with Sarah using her for her own ends.
I’ve noticed that too about Sarah with Joyce.
I don’t know about anyone else, but Joe comes across as slightly menacing, here. Like, a physically-intimidating man is suddenly saying “I know X” while a woman has her back to him? It just kinda sketches me out a little.
Sarah could use a bit of menacing considering what she is trying to do.
nooo, the menacing is counterproductive and only distracts from the message.
I doubt that Joe could physically intimidate Sarah if he tried. However, he is using all the necessary non-verbal communication methods that he greatly disapproves of Sarah’s actions.
It must really hurt Joe to be honest. He was shaped into what he is by the fact that his father cheated on his mother. And now he sees Sarah trying to manipulate Joyce into making Jacob do the same.
Joe is generally honest. He’s been upfront about his awful behavior for quite awhile. It’s just that he didn’t understand just how hurtful he was being until it all came crashing down on him.
Some suggest above that Sarah will feel guilty because of that, but as she’s just smiling because she could cheer up Joyce a bit and help her, I honestly doubt it. I think she’ll maybe argue about something along the lines “It’s for Joyce too” or “It will make her happy”, or something.
There will be some point she may feel guilty, but I somehow get the feeling she’ll brush Joe off for now… (just commenting on what I expect to see tomorrow, not on any of the involved or uninvolved morals)
wait , is Joe acknowledging Its going to work or denying it?
Mmmmmm boy! That’s good drama.
What gets me is Joe’s
“What your REALLY trying to do…” line.
Niiiice.
i know this isnt related at all to the above comments , but whos hand is that between panel 3 and 5? i cant work it out…
It is Joe.
Joe has already passed Sarah in panel 3. The hand shows he’s stopped before entering the room, talking to Sarah without looking over his shoulder.
I never thought I’d see the day where Joe had the high ground over Sarah.
It’s always interesting to see the different ways people view relationships in their reaction to this plot line. Also, the question of what makes manipulation seems to have a lot of different answers.
There is ” Jacob is happy with Raidah, everyone should respect that”. Even though we do not know much about their relationship except that it exists and has been going on for a few weeks and Raidah is invested in Jacobs success (by guilt-tripping him). Is he happy with her? We cannot know. Is she happy with him? Dito.
And to some or all of those with this view, not indicating an interest in a person already in a relationship is a sign of respect, it seems. Why does it show respect not to make ones own feelings known? Respect of what or whom?
Also, if it shows respect to hide ones own interest in someone, how does one interact with such a person? Isn’t it unfair to not let them know?
There is “It is shitty of Sarah to hoodwink Joyce into going after Jacob while Joyce thinks she is keeping Sarah in play as a potential mate for Jacob”. Hm, we do know Sarah started this because she was jealous about Raidah being together with Jacob and not wanting Raidah to either be happy or in any way involved with her circle of people she is willing to stand next to. The latter is totally understandable from the way Raidah treats her whenever they meet. And on the way Sarah realized that what she wants from Jacob and what he wants from a relationship are totally different things. So she decided to renounce her own interest – but she didn’t tell Joyce about this. So we have Joyce happily falling for Jacob without noticing it herself.
Arguing that this is manipulation Joyce, hm, what exactly is the manipulation? Joyce runs on on her own because of her own ideas how the world should be. Is not telling her that the only thing the whole story might end up would be Joyce falling for Jacob and vice versa manipulation? Again, what exactly makes this manipulation?
And where is Jacob manipulated?
Is it manipulation of Raidah to create a situation where she might get jealous? I’m no really sure if manipulation is the word I would chose here, but yes this is actually not cricket. Sarah is rather sure that Raidah will disgrace herself when she gets jealous. So at least this creates a situation where Raidah is tested,and yes, having said this is would apply the world manipulation.
But everything else reminds me of the Dorothy Sayers approach to relationships: the trick is to not exist as not to influence your partner (or whoever) in an adverse way. But you cannot be a person that offers support, questions, friendship, fun, quality time or love without being there, wanting what you want, and therefore sometimes wanting different things that the friend or lover in question. And this is not manipulation!
Sarah is not nearly the innocent you’re painting her here. She’s still encouraging Joyce (or was up to before the church “date”, I don’t know if we’ve seen anything explicit since then) for her own purposes. It’s not just that she’s not stopping her.
As for respecting a relationship: Yeah, pretty much. Though it’s not so much “is happy with”, but “this is their relationship, their choice, don’t mess with it”. With potential exceptions when you actually have reason to believe the relationship is abusive or damaging in some way and you’re acting for their own good – which is explicitly not the case here for anyone’s motivation.
It would one thing if they were just innocently hanging out and emotions developed. That happens. It’s usually awkward and painful and doesn’t lead to good ends for anyone, but it does happen. It’s not happening here. Sarah, Joyce, Becky, even Billie are all intentionally attempting to break up the couple for their own reasons.
Billie wants to break up the couple, too? I forgot that bit; why did she want to do that?
No real reason. She caught on to what Sarah was up to and helped out. I believe she was the one that got Joyce into the dress for church.
Mostly I think she just wants to feel useful to her friends. “Head cheerleader. Alpha bongo. Matchmaker.”
“And to some or all of those with this view, not indicating an interest in a person already in a relationship is a sign of respect, it seems. Why does it show respect not to make ones own feelings known? ”
that’s an interesting one. I think the answer is that there’s a big difference between making your feelings clear *once*, and letting them colour every little interaction. like, the “so tell me about sarah” thing let joyce use her words, and she did so, and that was a little awkward but seems to have gone okay. Usually it’s not quite so simple – what if letting them know at all makes them uncomfortable? what if they think (rightly or wrongly) that you’re going to be doing inappropriate things because of these feelings, or what if they feel bad about not being able to return them, or think you want them to manage them for you? .. so that’s why people go with trying to hide it as the simpler option, maybe?
here’s an example… I’ve had a crush on a boss before. he was happily married as well as being my boss, so there was no way I was going to act on those feelings, but they were still there. I didn’t see any point in talking about it (and didn’t have the capacity to do so gracefully back then anyways), but what I did do was avoid sitting next to him or otherwise being closer than necessary. I hid those feelings because they would get in the way of getting work done, and because broadcasting them would get in the way of everyone *else* getting work done too. And I didn’t want my boss having to worry about whether his employee would try to do something stupid. He could probably tell anyways – especially before I noticed it myself – but hopefully my continuing to act as professionally as I knew how reassured him that I could keep my mind on work.
otoh, when it’s obvious someone *else* has a crush on *me*… well, when I was younger and more innocent it didn’t bother me, but the more I learnt about the real world the more it did. 🙁 for a while, I had a lot of anxiety about guys liking me and how sad they must feel when I couldn’t return their feelings, and occasionally worries that they might start following me around and cause a scene (after one guy *did* start following me around after what I thought was “obviously” a one-night-stand). I’ve considered trying to be less friendly in general or dressing more conservatively because of it; it seems like me being myself in a good mood reads a lot like flirting. :/
I dunno, there’s a lot I haven’t figured out yet, but it turns out that professional behaviour has its uses, despite “hiding feelings” being a part of it. I guess that’s a boundaries thing too: showing everything to everyone is not healthy or safe. I wish it was. 😛
tl;dr: knowledge is power, and with great power comes great responsibility. people don’t always like having responsibility thrust upon them. 😉
Darn English language. Does Joe believe it won’t work or is he amazed that it is working? Like “I can’t believe its not butter”, means that it isn’t butter and I totally know that, but its amazing and i’m OK with it.
Can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor. Wait, does that mean you should be careful not to put too much water in or that no matter how much you add its OK?
But you must believe it is butter, it’s so delicious you can’t believe it’s not. Substitute “I can’t…” with “It’s impossible to…”
Sarah’s plan is working and Joe is not happy about it
I would say he’s a little of both, but also kind of neutral. His concerns are for his friends and the fact that they’re being manipulated. He’d probably be fine with either Jacob staying with Raidah or breaking up with her and getting with Joyce, as long as it was done honestly and without cheating.
“You’re messing with my bro, Sarah.”
I’m not surprised Joe called her out on it and I’m really interested in how he will proceed with this seeing as I doubt Sarah is going to deny it after confirming it to both Becky and Billy. Then again Sarah hates everyone ,especially Joe, so I can’t say she won’t get defensive just because she doesn’t want him to be right either…
I think Sarah’s whole “I hate everyone shtick and I’m a thoroughly unpleasant person” edgelord shtick is sustainable precisely because she thinks she’s the unsung hero of the story. The put-upon college student who only wants the best for her friends and her career, who’ll do the right thing no matter how difficult it is.
What we’re seeing here is the true face of her mindset: when the chips are down, she’ll exploit even the most vulnerable person in the comic strip, a person who looks up to her as the big sister she never had. And she’ll do it to destroy a relationship without any clear justification whatsoever.
tl;dr: Sarah is a bit of a freaking narcissist.
I should add Sarah’s characterization thus far shows no regret or even self-awareness that she’s taken a headlong leap into an ethical deadzone. If anything, she seems to think what she’s doing isn’t just acceptable, it’s righteous.
“ethical deadzone” is a bit much in a comic where we have a literal rapist, a man who would kidnap his own daughter to torture her and a man who abused his daughter so much she developed DID as a coping mechanism
Not saying Sarah is doing anything right, but she’s far from a monster or approaching a moral event horizon
Well that was why I didn’t say moral event horizon. Only that she’s in territory that’s outside the realm of ethically sound behavior. There is no rule book for what she’s doing right now. It’s in her interest to leave ASAP.
But those are villains and Sarah’s a protagonist. Makes a difference.
I do think Joe oughta ask himself why it’s working. Is it because Joyce is a master of seduction? Is it because Jacob likes to cheat? Is it because Sarah’s just that good at this? Or could it be that Jacob’s not happy with Raidah? A healthy couple that has no issues wouldn’t be torn apart just because a young, cute Christian girl is tossed into the mix. I get where Joe’s coming from, and there does need to be somebody to point out that ruining the relationship is fucked, because it is. However, I’m also in the camp that Raidah’s not a good person and Jacob needs to get out while he can. If he would be happier with Joyce, then by all means, break up with Raidah and continue getting closer with Joyce. Sarah however, should have no part in that and remain Jacob’s friend. I do think by this point that she’s given up on any relationship with Jacob because she realizes she’s just into him physically. At least I hope so…Sarah would be no better for Jacob than Raidah, if not worse.
Jacob mentioned to Raidah a while back that he’s had problems with jealous girlfriends in the past. I kind of wonder if that’s a hint that they did have something to be jealous about – not necessarily cheating, but the kind of flirty close friendship we see starting with Joyce, leading towards an actual romantic interest. Basically, if this is actually his pattern, whether he realizes it or not.
Oooh, I could see that being the case. Especially since Jacob seems like the kind of guy to have mostly female friends.
You broke the bro-code, Sarah. You broke it.
The composition is wonderful here. We never get a full-on view of the head and face of either Sarah or Joe.
On purpose?
Now say something cryptic and vanish while she’s looking away.