I shouldn’t be surprised that someone else came up with the name “Black Alice”, but I am. Though theirs wasn’t a little girl, so I think the random idea I came up with for someone else to write in Creative Writing wins.
Terry Pratchett had a “Black Aliss”. We never met her in the books; she was a witch who lived up near Lancre somewhere and went a bit funny from keeping herself isolated. Started cackling and whatnot. Died when a couple of brats shoved her into her own oven.
….wait is Jocelyne into chicks or dudes or Yes, cuz that AU could go interesting places depending on the answer =P…hell depending on the answer, THIS ‘verse can go interesting places, what with becky’s attraction to joyce…and Joyce’s face…which lets face it Lyn kinda has. (shush i call her Lyn cuz its a cute name)
i don’t believe her orientation has been covered, just her gender identity. we might infer her to be into dudes from her saying “not ACTUALLY gay” to mean instead of being a dude into dudes she’s a lady into dudes, but that doesn’t preclude bisexuality or pansexuality. she might also be a ____romantic asexual. who knows! it is a fun surprise.
or a tragic surprise, david willis being who he is, but yeah.
Well, yeah, sexuality terms get very… inadequate for non-binary individuals at least or for variations of pansexuality or panromanticism (what would be the term for someone who is sexually attracted to only women and non-binary for instance), but it’s pretty easy for a binary trans person who identifies as either straight, gay, or bi/pan.
I thought about this, too, when people were talking about the Browns setting her up with Becky to “straighten” them out. I thought it would be hilarious if they got together as a lesbian couple.
But then I remembered her telling Ethan that she’s not gay. I’m surprised Cerberus didn’t mention it, actually.
To be fair, I’m a dyke who adamantly considers myself not gay. For me (and for a lot of queer women, though not all), “gay” is a term that centers men’s experiences and I’m not interested in that at all.
Well, telling someone you’re not gay and not being gay aren’t exactly the same thing. Up until I heard that Willis had confirmed her heterosexuality, I was open to the possibility that, since she was presenting as “Josh” at the time, “I’m not gay” was code for “I’m not into dudes.” She hadn’t come out to Ethan at the time, actually.
Now that would be a relationship fraught with drama and angst: Ethan and Jocelyne. He might see it as the closest he can get to actually being straight while she can be trying to be okay with the fact that he isn’t actually interested in her but in the character she sometimes has to play.
ONE unexpired “List A” document proving BOTH identity and authorization to work in the U.S. – e.g., U.S. Passport OR Permanent Resident Card OR Employment Authorization Document/Card OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND I-94 issued at port of entry OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND temporary I-551 stamp on a Machine-Readable Immigrant Visa OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND Form I-20 CPT/OPT document
==OR==
ONE “List B” document proving identity AND ONE “List C” document proving authorization to work in the U.S.
List B examples: driver’s license OR ID card issued by a federal or state institution (e.g., DMV, military, USDA, etc.) OR expired permanent resident card OR school ID OR Native American tribal document
List C examples: SSN card OR birth certificate OR certified copy of birth record OR certificate of naturalization OR Native American tribal document
…damn it I can’t even get away from work HERE, I didn’t cut-and-paste any of that or look it up, and it’s not even all the possible examples (and no we don’t know why “Native American tribal document” can’t count as List A)
Mine is in pieces as it fell apart after years of carrying it around.
I never had to present the card itself.
I just remember the number and that’s all they usually ask for.
Interestingly enough, though, the Social Security Administration says that SSN cards cannot be laminated (it invalidates them), and that one should always carry it around like a second piece of ID. (Not sure why, though, as without a picture on it, nobody accepts it as ID. Passport – valid ID. Driver’s Licence/State ID card – valid ID. Birth Certificate – not valid ID. SSN card – not valid ID.)
The one that bugs me is that an expired Driver’s License/State ID card is no longer valid picture ID for stuff like alcohol. It’s not like the picture goes bad or one’s birthday is suddenly false… It’s just annoying, especially when you’re dealing with that time between getting your ID stolen and getting it replaced.
Ah, I forgot to mention – the SSN also believes there is no reason to laminate the card as they say it’s completely replaceable if lost or destroyed. (Replacing official documents is a pain, though – but I don’t think they really care about that part.)
It’s because its expired, of course! Would you put expired mayo on your turkey sandwich, or expi red milk in your coffee? It makes perfect bureaucratic sense? How could they tell the picture is of you if it’s expired? Or your birthday might have changed!
I lost my National Security (UK equiv.) card decades ago. When I’m filling in forms, I just copy the number from previous practice forms. Of course, by this point, the number on the practice form was copied from an earlier practice form, which was copied from an earlier… So occasionally I worry that I made a transcript error somewhere and all my records are wrong.
Then again, I’ve worked for The Beaurocracy, and they never said “Your NI number doesn’t make sense”, so it’s probably fine.
All she has to do is go to the social security office with id, like her student card from old college. Any id that would require her to have has a ssn to get it.
Tell them it’s lost and they will replace it.
I just did that awhile back because the first one went thru the wash and it’s a long story as not usually out of the box I keep stuff like that in.
Oh really?? I thought you had to send in a copy of your birth certificate and so on, I like this much more and would be happy to be on outdated or wrong info.
I recently helped a friend get hers, and I think all she had was a federal disability check. Might have had birth certificate or something too. I know for a fact she didn’t have any picture ID.
It really doesn’t need to be that nefarious. I definitely had noooo idea what my social security number was or what the deal was until I got my first job. My parents kept it in a safe place with the family’s other documents and would grab it if it were really needed. I think that’s where Becky is. She’s never had to think too hard about it before, or memorize it ’cause it’s never been an issue.
Depending on exactly how doomsday prepper Ross was, maybe, maybe not? I’ve heard of people not having a SSN because their parents were super conspiracy theorist types, but I’m not sure that still happens in this day and age.
It may depend on his relationship with things government. Some very antigovernment people are the first in line for any goodies they can get off the government.
A lot of employers (if not all) require the actual card, to photocopy.
I have no idea what the state they’re in has for laws about replacements. The problem is that, I’m guessing, she doesn’t have the secondary ID stuff (birth certificate, license, etc) to prove it’s her. (Toedad seems like a lockbox kinda guy about the first, and a ‘no’ guy on the other.) So she wouldn’t be able to just get another one.
I’m guessing at least part of the visit home is meant to be for a Daring Raid On The Toe Compound to get the stuff she needs to have a life, again.
It depends on where you are and what you look like. As I understand it, in some areas if you look even slightly “ethnic” they will insist on seeing your work permit or Visa, or your birth certificate to prove that you don’t need a permit or Visa. Guilty until proven innocent?
‘That’s impressive, but I meant two forms of *paper* ID. And also if you could turn those people back from pillars of salt and make the drinking fountains stop flowing red that would be greatly appreciated.’
To be fair that could just be CYA. Isn’t it illegal to hire illegals? What’s the penalty? Of course… I suppose that white, European looking person could actually be European and here illegally too. I’d probably want to check IDs on everyone I hired if I were doing so just to CMA, not necessarily because I want to discriminate against anyone.
Yeah, people assume all undocumented workers are latin@. Interestingly enough, none of the undocumented people I’ve known have been latin@, and instead were asian or white european.
The Canadian version of National Geographic Channel plays several variations of the show Border Security, dealing with customs and immigration personnel from Australia, Canada, and the US at work. They’ve had a range of people who are trying to work and/or establish permanent residence in Canada without getting the proper paperwork, including Europeans and Americans.
It’s the “yet” that worries me. You know who I’m thinking of.
There are too many groups around the world these days that want it to be illegal to be “Not Us”. It seems like the only difference between the human tribalism of 50,000 years ago and now is the efficiency of the weapons.
Yes, it’s against the law. But everyone looks the other way. That’s why the whole system even works. You can’t get laws passed that would make it genuinely hard to hire people who are here illegally.
I won’t get into the argument about whether this is a good or bad thing. Just that there really isn’t anyone trying to stop it. The focus is always on kicking the people out.
I’ve had a few renters that require a photocopy of my Soc Sec card, as proof of identity. They need this for credit checks. Most employers I’ve worked for need proof of identity, so either a Soc Sec card or a passport. Driver’s license is proof of state residency, but not proof of identity – government is very strict about this.
I’ve never seen this. A social security card isn’t proof of identity. A driver’s license is.
A social security number is useful for credit checks, which is why landlords want them, but showing a card isn’t any more useful than just writing the number down.
She’d still need the number. I’ve filled out a bajillion and a half applications in my time and they all required the number on the paperwork and a scan of my ss-card and either driver’s license or passport once hired.
See, now not knowing your SSN, at college age, seems like a stretch. I mean, Becky doesn’t seem like she could skate by without loans, and I know the FAFSA requires your SSN.
She’s supposed to be a bit of a flibbertigibbet, but still.
I don’t know my SSN either. Granted, I have my card and know where it is, so if I need it I can find it no problem. But Becky doesn’t seem like she would have access to it.
I dunno, college is pretty much the first you start needing it, and even if she has used it once or twice, that may not have been enough to memorize with.
And not a stretch at all that Becky wouldn’t know it and might not even have it – many of the girls from fundie families I knew didn’t have social insurance numbers (Canada’s equivalent to your SSN – with a much more amusing acronym!) until they filled out the paperwork on their own – usually after breaking ties with their families and winding up without any way to make money above the table for a few weeks while the application completed.
(And that was the girls lucky enough to have birth certificates and photo IDs. Ones who’d been born as home births might not have either and they were royally fucked)
Same, no one has ever asked to see my actual card, ever. That’s completed college, several job applications, a few actual jobs, government license applications, bank accounts, and more.
Yeah, never been asked for the card ever, not once, not ever. Number – once I had one late in college – yes. Card? No. I don’t even know where it is. If I had to have a scan of it? I’d be fucked.
Whether the employer needs it or not is based on the U.S. !-9 verification requirements. Basically, unless you’re using a Passport (Foreign or U.S.) or a Permanent Resident card, you need to have an Identity Document (basically some sort of photo ID) and an Employment Authorization Document (SSN card or Birth Certificate/Native American Tribal Document or Dept. of Homeland Security Employment Authorization Document).
So, there are ways around using SSN, but she would have to present another document, and just knowing an SSN isn’t enough.
I think it used to be more flexible, but given the state of heightened vigilance/fear/panic here in the U.S., it isn’t anymore. (I do miss those days you could meet a family member/loved one at the airport gate…)
Becky is within a few miles of her home, right now. I am sure all her papers are there waiting for her. I kind of hoped that is where the road trip would end up.
Somewhere. And that’s assuming he has a good filing system rather than just burying old paperwork like that in a box somewhere. And I guarantee she was never made privy to where that information is.
She may try anyways, but it’s a pretty big crapshoot that she’ll be able to just stumble upon all her necessary paperwork.
Honestly she may have better luck going to the local social security office and seeing if she can have a new card sent out, I had to do that after I lost mine. They’ll mail it to you but the have a temporary sheet that functions as a SSC in the meantime. However, I’m not sure how hard it would be for her to get it, what hoops she’d have to jump through.
Lapsed licenced tax professional with no practical experience here:
What Becky can do (if she isn’t in the system or if she can’t get her number from the Social Security office) is the same thing undocumented immigrants do: go to the IRS and get a Taxpayer Identification Number. She’ll still need to show proof of citizenship and identity to work legally, but a TIN will open up some opportunities.
Who is Shirley?
(I chose not to resist this temptation; and I won’t apoligize for my choice … at least not until somebody makes clear to me why I should….)
Really the only other scenario in which he stays a truly likable person is if he just abhors violence and has stared down death from gunshot and survived by faith and he wishes his sister had done the same.
True, but remember, this strip lives in “comics” time, meaning that it’s always “now”. In other words, in about 10 years, Dean’s comment will be spot on!
Are people really THAT bad? I mean seriously.. I’ve know people with enough homophobia, sexism and religious ferver to be right there with Toe Dad up until the point the gun came out. Granted.. this situation has never been tested among people that I know but I really can’t imagine any of them hanging in there with Toe Dad once the gun came out.
Admittedly earlier time, but a number of people from my home community did fundraisers in support of clinic shooters legal defense funds and a number did fundraisers for an ex-lesbian who kidnapped her kid and ran out of country so it “wouldn’t be exposed to the deviant lesbian lifestyle”, because the “poor mom” could lose her kid to the evil courts unless everyone helps out.
Supporting a gunman just trying to get their daughter “some help” with physical force is not at all out of my experiences of what a fundie community would support.
Yeah. There’s a reason ex-gay facilities, like the kind of place Toedad was going to take Becky to and have her locked away forever, to be abused & tortured until she swore she was straight, still exist. Parents have to be willing to sign away their children to what is literally a facility that brainwashes and re-educates through physical and mental torture in order to ensure religious compliance. If parents and communities weren’t willing to support these abominable fucking practices, the places wouldn’t exist. If communities didn’t encourage, support, and fund the preachers who create clinic shooters, and then pay their legal costs and send constant care packages to them in prison, etc, those people wouldn’t exist.
This stuff comes from a deep, massive groundswell of hatred and intolerance and a throbbing feeling that the modern world has turned against them, become a hostile place that they can’t understand, and the only way to stay ‘pure’ (because purity is SUPER important) is to retreat from it or change it by force. It’s out there, and it’s scary as shit.
Cerberus and I have both fucking seen it. :/ Lived it, even.
Finished his first one. Which was telling Joyce that her reaction of punching someone in the face to having a gun pointed at her and her best friend was and I quote “a pretty extreme reaction.”
Yeah, after that you’re next diplomacy check is at -20. Subsequent sentence had better be a recipe for diet chocolate that tastes better than the real thing, or you’re screwed.
Possible follow-up: “Gah, sorry, misspoke. I meant risky, not extreme. I mean, seriously, even if the gun was pointed away from you, the punch might’ve made him flinch and accidentally pull the trigger. Someone could’ve been shot.”
Except we see his follow-up and it was to start arguing with her about her defense of her actions. So it definitely looks bad at the least and from my own life experiences, he’s setting off my “clueless idiot starts mansplaining about shit he’s completely out of his depth and awareness on” alarms.
Might be unfounded, but I think Jocelyne was wise to derail the conversation where she did.
I suspect it also has to do with the gender dynamics at play. There is no way this wouldn’t have been framed as “Joyce’s-dudely-alter-ego heroically stopped a gunman with a single punch!” if she was a guy.
But she’s a woman, so instead it’s an “extreme reaction.”
(Completely 100% in-line with what I experienced growing up by the way – doesn’t matter what was done to provoke me, up to and including breaking my bones, any violence on my part was an unacceptable over-reaction, full stop. Meanwhile dudes were lauded for actual violent over-reactions because “A man needs to know how to stand up for himself.”)
Jocelyne’s derail also looks very deliberate. She knows where it’s going and is trying to deflect. I’ll bet she either knows John well enough to know he’s not going to be supportive or heard enough on the drive over to know.
While I suppose it might be typical of this comic, you also might consider how Joyce’s mother phrases things, and that John might be entirely unaware of the entire shotgun business. Though, the word ‘mansplaining’ is cringe-invokingly asinine. I feel like we have to wait to see what he actually knows about the situation before casting judgement.
I firmly believe this too. What would be lauded as heroic when one gender does it tends to be seen as stupid or “extreme” for another gender. And yeah, we’re probably going to see, when they get to Church, a lot more of the “Toedad was so full of passion, standing up for his family” while minimizing or even demonizing the heroism Joyce and Becky displayed.
It’s also deliberately derogatory and increasingly inaccurate as we apply it in other situations. There’s nothing about men that limits it to them.
What if, when you got something wrong about sexuality, I called it “acesplaining”? Would you not feel it was an attack on ace people?
I mean, in a way, not being sexual is a privilege. You can think about things more clearly than most. So it fits all the requirements. But it is also is insulting.
It’s a word that gives men’s rights activists a reason to actually think that men are treated poorly, as such a term is only allowed because it’s directed towards men.
It’s a legitimate concept. But it’s a horrible word.
trlkly: Sure, it’s inaccurate if you apply it to situations where it doesn’t apply. You can claim being ace is a privilege, but it isn’t. Not in the way privilege is used in this context. It’s the exact opposite. Society is set up and structured for sexual people. That’s the assumption. That’s where the power lies. And thus the privilege.
And that’s where the foosplaining concept comes in, it’s explicitly about someone with power and privilege in a particular context telling those without it why they’re wrong about their own situation.
As for the MRA? Fuck ’em. They don’t need an excuse to think men are treated poorly, they’re perfectly happy making them up.
I stand by my previous statements regarding differences of power between dominant and marginalized groups and how that affects things.
Bigotry and oppression stem from prejudice and power. Mansplaining is a thing and an annoying thing, because it is frequently used to silence or question the qualifications of those of a marginalized class owing to the perceived social value of an ignorant comment by a dominant group. See this comic on how individual’s qualifications, expertise, and opinions are considered less and not as equal and how this leads to patronizing explanations to individuals who understand a subject much more thoroughly than they are given credit for: http://www.robot-hugs.com/technigal/
This also leads in practice to individuals to regularly feel qualified to talk over those who have personal experiences on a subject and explain how they should actually feel on a subject. This also leads to social, workplace, and legislative consequences (there’s a reason that only marginalized group healthcare is ever subject to politicization and limitation despite being considered medically ethical and approved and why women’s voices are frequently discounted in legislative discussions about sexual assault, online harassment and violence, and intimate partner violence).
“Acesplaining” is evocative, because it’s not a thing. And it wouldn’t be a thing because asexuals simply are not a dominant group compared to allosexuals and so even if they were to give wholly ignorant points on the merit of sexual attraction, it would carry no legislative, social, or employment weight and in fact the asexual person would be quickly dismissed and ignored as “ignorant” and would not grow up in a culture where they presumed their input on sexual matters was something that was always important and worthy.
On a tangent, this would very much be my fate if I was to spout off inaccurate shit about sexuality stuff, whether you called it acesplaining or not. And furthermore, I would find few allies on my side if I was being ignorant and belligerent in such a manner. If I was to be accused of “acesplaining” by someone, I’d be mostly baffled as a) that’s not a thing, b) I would assume initially it was some bizarre reverse racism style joke, c) it’s just kind of weird.
In fact, given that asexuals are the marginalized group in that affair, they are far more likely to be talked over and ignored even when discussing their own life experiences. I have long lost track of the amount of times where I have been presumed to be ignorant or deluded of my own experiences and attractions and that I am an unreliable narrator of my own life owing to people presuming that they as allosexuals must understand asexuality better than I do. And I mean that down to allosexual people yelling at me that I clearly do not understand asexuality because I do not fit into their stereotypical and frequently inaccurate ideas of what an asexual must be. Which would frankly add another layer of WTF to the whole thing.
As far as being asexual being a privilege… um, no. When my fellow aces stop being correctively raped and coerced into unwanted sex to “prove their love” to romantic partners at a rate far above those of their sexual peers. When we stop being presumed to be liars who don’t even understand our own selves. When our romantic and sexual lives are considered fair game to be dissected. When our partners do not treat our affection as fictitious or incomplete. And when we are no longer presumed to be “broken” and lying, maybe it would be less laughable to consider we are privileged over allosexuals.
But when prominent sexologists literally say we are doing violence upon our romantic partners by dating them and that we are monsters simply for existing, one cannot easily make the argument that we are in any way enjoying an easier time than allosexuals.
Believe me that my life would be much easier for me if I was simply a lesbian rather than a homoromantic asexual.
Seriously, MRAs suck. There is literally nothing they don’t spin as proof that all women are evil and hate men, so censoring ourselves for their behalf works about as well as gay people censoring themselves so homophobes will stop hating them.
I think the parallel you’re looking for is “straightsplaining.”
(It’s also a fairly common anti-ace tactic to suggest that “asexuals have more time and are more logical, since they don’t have to worry about sex!” It may seem benevolent, but it’s very much not.)
Everyone who is calling to give John the benefit of the doubt because maybe he doesn’t quite know what happened, doesn’t that mean John should ask what happened? He’s got two people right there with first-person accounts.
Well, we’ve already had Hank, Carol and Jocelyne, all with very different reactions. It’s not clear yet exactly how bad John’s going to be, but signs point to it not being pretty. It’s not even clear where Hank will come down in the end when this inevitably escalates into an actual fight.
I think he doesn’t know the whole story. If he knew, he wouldn’t have asked, and he (probably) would have call her as soon as he found out (or, at least that’s what my siblings will do).
I think even without knowing the whole story, the best response would be to express concern that your baby sister was in a fistfight with a fully grown man – or at least wanting to know WHY before chiding her for acting out of character.
He probably got an incomplete, warped version of the story from Carol. (Probably from the “I would die for you” conversation, so whatever Joyce didn’t omit was filtered through an emotional, sympathetic-with-the-antagonist lens before it made it to anyone else.)
If he could just listen to the actual story, maybe he’d come around.
We don’t know how much he knows. Has he seen it in the news? Or did he just hear what happened from his Parents? Perhaps he doesn’t know they had a gun or somehow didn’t connect the gun and Joyce’s actions. I just find it hard to believe someone understanding the full situation would react like that.
Still? People still find it hard to believe?
I suppose that’s good in a way. In the sense that it is good that some people haven’t had to confront this kind of bigotry before.
It’s basically how Carol reacted. How strange is that a son reacts similarly to one of his parents?
It’s still possible it’s all a misunderstanding. It’s possible Willis has decided to crank up the feels and then defuse it all with a wacky misunderstanding as a counterpoint to Carol’s actual prejudice. And then we can have a nice conflict between Carol and the rest of the united Brown family.
[Shakes Magic 8-Ball] Signs point to No.
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
This sequence needed conflict. Otherwise it would have been removed or at least downplayed. John is the obvious character to provide that, since Jocelyne’s clearly a supporter. Narratively, he pretty much has to be the bad guy here.
He did say he just got back from his honeymoon, so it seems like any US news he would have gotten would have been via mom, which I’m sure was a very twisted version of the story about how Becky was ungrateful and Toedad had a “disagreement” with Joyce and it’s all terrible and Becky’s fault.
^ This. I like this. It made me laugh. Because the greatest enemy of all humanity is, after all, climate change. Right? Right? ….*crickets* What? I thought I was right! The gubmint tells me so!
Same thing as dating any other straight woman. She’s a woman who likes dudes. Only difference is she’s way more likely to be murdered by the dudes she dates than most other women.
I wonder if the Browns are into guns at all. Would John have gone a rant about gun free zones and victim disarmament if Ross was the dad of someone he’d never met?
So….are you in favor of gun free zones? I can’t really tell by your comment. I mean no offense, I’m just curious. Because Ross would have been easily stopped had IU not been a gun free zone. Sidenote: Not all of us gun owners want to make the old west be reborn and carry them everywhere. Most of us are the silent majority. We just want to have the right to carry them and you’ll never see them if it’s up to us.
Seeing as how the only immediate reaction from a non-main character was ‘Thank god that’s over’ to Becky’s kidnapping, I somehow doubt that they would have started a running gun battle on the campus.
Congratulations, though. You have succeeded in suggesting a method far more unrealistic and dangerous for rescuing Becky than Amazi-Girl’s shenanigans!
The problem with that idea, that gun owners will stop a gun crime, is that it relies on the gun owner not falling under Bystander Syndrome. Or the gun owner thinking “hey someone’s probably called the cops, if I shoot this guy and they find me with a gun, I’ll be the one to get in trouble.”
In the end, having a gun of your own during a crime only increases your chances of stopping it… If you decide to stop. It may actually lessen your chance of deciding to stop it.
I remember a number of stories from armed folks who’ve actually been in shootings who’ve quickly realized that things are way too chaotic to risk anything and that an actual shooting is nothing like one’s hollywood movie fantasies. Most notably would be the Giffords shooting, where a number of folks were armed, but did nothing because of the chaos and the actual person to stop the gunman was a gay aide who bravely tackled the gunman.
But I get the fantasy. We all want to pretend that some inane thing we do makes us immune to the fear of threats. That some potent talisman or behavior change will make us “safe” from things that scare us. And if you’re privileged enough to rarely face violence or its threats, it can even seem like it’s working.
But in reality, when one is actually threatened with violence regularly, one is better off investing in a pair of running shoes and a firm hope that your trauma response is flight.
In fact, in the Giffords shooting, Joe Zamudio, one of concealed carriers in question, arrived on the scene ready to intervene, but the shooter was already disarmed. Zamudio was ready to shoot the man who’d taken the gun, but grabbed him instead.
That came very close to being even worse. He described it as just reacting and being lucky to right the thing.
Extreme? No no no no no, John’s supposed to be good brother! When a man kidnaps your best friend and brandishes a gun at your school, he got off easy if he only got your fist in his face.
Remember, that probably means fine as in ‘adheres to family belief system’, though. Unless you were bringing that up to make this point, in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding.
I’m still holding out hope that John only has a garbled account of what happened he got from his mother, and will default to rage when he learns the details. Mostly because I want the Brown sister to have as many decent family members as possible. If John knows all the details, I guess that’s the end of my hope for him. If someone did that to my kid sister, I would not be sitting in a burger place talking about it calmly, and I’d run a serious risk of ending up in prison.
Sadly that’s the reality of the culture Becky and Joyce grew up in and a major aspect of why they are the way they are. The world both of them came to age in is one that does not view Toedad as a villain, but as a brave man who took on Satan and risked his life to try and save his daughter.
Some will go full in support like Carol, most others will lend a half-support where his crimes are diminished (like possibly John here), and few will outright condemn, instead at best praising his heart and his intentions if not his methodology.
It’s like the outpouring of disingenuousness from “pro-life groups” whenever one of their ranks shoots up a clinic. “Oh, this is a tragedy, but really, he’s kind of a hero and how dare people politicize this and the victim deserved it and…”
Ross stood up for his convictions. Then promptly got proportionately punched by a pugilist Joyce for possessing preposterous and perverse thought processes.
Perhaps satisfying to us, but Becky stopped her. Becky didn’t want him hurt more. One of her big concerns through the whole thing was not getting him blown away by cops.
As the one he was kidnapping, I think her opinion counts more.
Yeah, that’s what really hammers home the family’s betrayal for me.
A friend of the family has just THREATENED HIS BABY SISTER WITH A GUN. The way I expect the story to go is John screaming bloody murder and demand ToeDad’s head on a pike outside the church as a warning example, I expect people to have to hold him back and explain that there is a pile of cop taking care of the situation and that he doesn’t have to punch him in the face personally… but instead what we get is the family forcing Joyce to justify herself again and again, with vague apologies for “the poor man”
I don’t even ask them to accept Becky’s right to exist, all I ask is for them to prioritize their own lovely little sister over a Toeshaped turd with a gun. I would be happy with a “Becky could have handled the situation better, but that fucker is GOING DOWN”
Its interesting, we always blame the victims of a crime a little bit. Leave your door unlocked and get robbed? I guarantee the cops aren’t going to be pointing the finger outside alone. They’ll criticize (probably fairly) that the world works in shitty ways and you need to lock your doors. Now that’s a mild example and reems of separation away from “crazed asshat aims gun at 2 college girls”, but the logic always has and always kindof will exist. And its fair until you start breaking average expectations. Its pretty common for unlocked things to get trifled with, so locking things just makes sense and should be expected. Contrarily I can’t see a whole lot of fair expectations for things like this. Part of Joyce’s family could if they’re acting this way but, frankly, I can’t think its a fair expectation to be shot at for banging classifications.
We blame victims, because we believe that if they did something “stupid” or “deserved it”, we will remain safe of whatever affected them or we do not need to be engaged in a rights struggle surrounding bigotry or oppression. Because it’s just a stupid idiot who got what they deserved (for not being smart like me).
If things seem especially big and insurmountable, the logic gets even more twisted up, less there is a hated minority to blame for being super evil and sneaky instead.
What was the bit in Willis’s post about his mom that talked about painfully realizing that his humanity would always be subsumed to his mom’s ideology and worldview?
And it’s something I’ve seen with a lot of my ex-fundie friends. With their families, all that matters is that they return back to the fold. Not what is happening to them, not that awfulness is hitting them, it’s all secondary to its usefulness in “avoiding hell” and “returning to God’s path”.
As such, even the threat of death becomes meaningless in the face of the “necessity” of saving her soul. And it really does prove that Toedad is merely the extreme face of an ideology that is ubiquitous in their culture.
And sadly, that is not something unique to this particular toxic subculture. My family was very fond of twisting every negative consequence of social discrimination and abuse into a narrative of how “unhealthy” my “delusions” were and how important it was that I reject this “fake notion” of who I was and come get fixed.
Ideology trumping humanity. Doesn’t matter what horrors you’ve survived, there’s a “soul” to be “saved”.
And this is why we like Joyce. Despite her toxic upbringing and all the horrible ideas she’s been indoctrinated with, every time ideology comes into conflict with humanity, she picks humanity. Doesn’t even have to be family, just people.
Not without some awful misteps. Not without a lot of angst.
In the end of the day, this is not even about Becky any longer. Joyce WILL defend Becky to the end, but the stakes are higher now.
Joyce Is Good People. She thought the church had taught her how to be that. She has now learnt that the church and her own family lied to her. She has chosen between doctrine and To Be A Good Person, and she has chosen the latter. THAT’S what this conflict is about. (Oh, and that as-God-is-her-whitness no one will ever hurt Becky again)
Not to mention defying the hero’s idea of religion and what God wants, putting the hero at odds with their family and home community as they fully support their best friend.
I’ll I’m saying is that if they both end up on a raft at some point, it won’t be out of place.
“Hey, John, you remember mr MacIntyre?”
“…vaguely. Looks like a toe, likes his own voice a bit too much”
“And you remember Joyce?”
“Of course! My lovely little ray-of-sunshine baby sister who is rather childish and too good for this sinful earth”
“Well, he just pointed a gun at Joyce”
“Oh, OK, well let me hear his reasons.”
“X”
a) “Ah, I see. Well, that seems reasonable. God bless his soul.”
b) “GET ME MY PUNCHING HAT!!!”
I just don’t see what “X” could be in John’s world view to give answer A. rather than B.
(Well, OK, I DO know since the answer is X=GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, but I don’t like it.)
I see your parenthetical point, but one must keep in mind that Becky’s lesbiosity does deduct at least 12 humanity points and necessitate her being placed on the back-burner in favor of pathway c) “Everyone but me is being so unreasonable due to their tiny girl brains”.
See, the problem with that is that the appropriate point for option B is between “Well, he just pointed a gun at Joyce” and “Oh, OK, well let me hear his reasons.”
Except if I heard someone had pointed a gun at my sister, I’d already be giving him a permanent injury before a reason could be given. There fucking is no reason.
Your sister was pointing one at him? Your sister had just shot his family? He was a cop, arresting her in the course of a robbery?
There are reasons. If unlikely ones.
Now, if I’m on the scene and it’s not immediately obvious, then definitely jump to her defense. Duh.
If I hear about it later, especially when the person is already injured and in custody, I’m going to be far more interested in making sure she’s ok and finding out what happened, which would include why, than in driving a few hours to try to break into the hospital and get by the police guards to permanently injure him.
Sorry, the machismo gets to me. You don’t need to main him. The girls handled it. She handled it. It’s over. Getting revenge on the guy who threatened her isn’t your job.
I completely agree that that sort of machismo respons would not be a good idea (that’s why I framed it silly like I did with a “punching hat”). That’s one of the reasons why we have things like judges and cops and jails, to stop concerned family members from finding their own revenge.
But I still expect it to be the way an overreaction tips over. I expect the fallout to be in the direction of stopping family members from doing things like that rather than stoping them from minimising the crime, blaming the victim and bemoaning the fate of the poor man with the gun. Stupid and misguided as it would be, it would tell Joyce and Becky that John was on their side, not ToeDad’s.
(or he could be even more awesome and say the same thing without machismo, like Hank “of course Becky, always” or Jocelyne “high five”, but I’m scraping for the lowest acceptable answer here).
Yeah. Machismo aside, while it would be possible for their to be good reasons for someone threatening a sister, I would still expect the first reaction to be support of one kind or another. At least the “I’m so glad you’re OK” variety – which should probably extend to Becky, though that’s a bit more forgivable in John’s case, since he likely doesn’t know her that well.
Unlike Hank, who barely passed that test. Or Jocelyne who cleared the bar without even looking down.
Okay, first of all, I was assuming in this situation, as in the one John and Joyce are arguing over, that there /is/ no good reason. The likelihood of my sister /earning/ a gun in her face is so small that no, it doesn’t really enter the mind when I’m angrily making a statement.
And if you think I’d literally go out of my way, risking consequences on petty revenge to hurt someone else because of a situation that’s already ended, you misread my comment. I was angry. That was the point of my comment, that the response to your sibling being threatened should be more “I’ll fucking cut whoever did it” and not “well honey it was probably your fault,” even if you don’t literally mean to harm anyone.
I’m an overprotective older sister. I’d be losing my shit if something happened to my siblings, and I’d be angry enough to hurt someone probably even if it was my sibling’s own fault. So excuse me for exaggerating and being somewhat irrational in a hypothetical fucking response.
No, I would not literally hurt someone, except maybe in the heat of the moment. I don’t know why you chose to read my angry, impassioned statement as ‘I would literally break into the hospital and beat up a confined man’. And I don’t really appreciate you guys responding as if that was what I meant.
Yeah, I’ve got a bad feeling that the sermon on Sunday is going to be “specially” chosen as a response to the events surrounding Becky and might even end up being a direct passive-aggressive message to Becky and Joyce. Either way, I imagine that sermon will be just awful for both of them and I kinda hope that Becky skips out as I don’t think she’s ready for what she’ll face there.
Even if there wasn’t the expectation of horribleness, I wouldn’t go if I were Becky. SO MANY not-really-acquaintances wanting to get a glimpse at the person who was on the news for weird scary stuff and confront for details (even if they were supportive).
It’s probably the healthier and happier idea to just straight up not go to the Sunday sermon, but I think she’ll go. I remember when church was still somewhere I considered safe and home, before I grew up enough to make “wrong” decisions that needed “correcting” (in my case by a few of the church female elders cornering me and bullying me for a few hours over my girlfriend)
I would agree. Becky is all in on “supporting Joyce” and so to skip out on church would violate that personal quest. However, I could definitely see Carol just flat-out refusing to take her to church owing to her “sinfulness”.
Even with that, I still wound up going back for a few months. It’s hard to realize that this “home” and “family” weren’t as permanent and supportive as they always said they were.
IME, the Carols want to take you to church if they feel you’re ‘straying’ or have fallen prey to Satan. Eeeven if you tell them you’re an atheist in so many words.
(Don’t tell fundies you’re an atheist trying to get out of church pressure. Just don’t. It will always backfire.)
Becky has the right to request her birth certificate from her home states Dept. of Statistics (or whatever name it uses, diff. states diff. depts.) and with a certified copy she can then get her social security number.
Using her old college student card will get her a copy of her ssn at the nearest social security office.
No big deal.
Genuine question as I’m very unsure of the law here:
Can she request it without means of proving who she is?
Furthermore how much will that cost? I’m currently in the midst of going through the court process of legal name change and it’s expensive as fuck and friends going through other court stuff also say that most other processes are expensive. Something that costs a couple of hundred bucks to replace may be grossly beyond her ability to pay without a means to legally find work.
It being SSN or Birth Certificate? SSN was addressed below, but as far as getting a copy of her birth certificate…my state would require photo ID, but it looks like Indiana will let you Order copies and generally review the birth registry online ( http://www.in.gov/isdh/23575.htm ) so I guess it depends!
But, yeah. Getting a birth certificate or ss card changed is always way more involved than just getting a copy of a previously issued birth certificate or ss card.
Bootstrapping ID is hard. They want you to have ID to prove who you are so you can get ID to prove who you are. Catch-22.
The important thing is the birth certificate. With that, everything else follows. Her best chance is finding it in the house. Second best is if she still has her Anderson ID. That should work to get a birth certificate. (Technically, you have to be currently enrolled, but I bet they just check the date on the card and don’t check with the school to see if you’ve been kicked out.) Or obviously a driver’s license, if she has one.
Without that, she’s in trouble. At that point I think the next step is suing her father for documentation, but if he fights it, that’s a long and expensive process for someone with no resources.
Around 10 years ago my mom asked me to see if I could find a place on the Internet to get the birth certificate of a friend of hers. This was a woman born in North Carolina in the 1920s.
I was able to find the relevant office in NC online. I paid $25 to get it, plus $50 more to a private company to push the paperwork. It was mailed to her in a week.
I didn’t have to present any proof of anything but my credit card number. I don’t recall if she would have had to show ID and sign for the mail when she got it.
But my memory is that she was someone who had gotten into her 70s without ever having proper ID. She only needed it then so she could go on a trip to the Caribbean with some friends.
I remember playing trading card games with those cards back in grade school! Unfortunately, I once lost mine to a guy who had 657-23-9743 and now I can’t get married or a job.
I was sort of quoting Robert Heinlein’s story “Jerry Was A Man”. Thing is, back when Shortpacked! was a regular strip, readers were complaining about Malaya’s apparent absense of redeeming characteristics, and I came upon the notion that there is NO OBLIGATION for fictional characters to have ANY virtues. It’s fiction.
In particular, Jocelyn derails the stupid John-altercation about to happen, asks the smart practical first questions, and offers the immediate meaningful help she can provide. (Especially being a character reference; Jocelyn could well be the only adult in their old community who will vouch for Becky.)
Yeah, I expected him to be somewhere in the lands between Carol and Jocelyne, prolly somewhere around Hank, but it’s looking like he may be somewhere between Carol and Hank.
Either way, alarm bells are definitely going off though hopefully he’ll be closer to Hank than Carol.
Yeah, their parents were totally “OH MY GOD, HE HAD A GUN . . . But I’d die for you . . .” They seemed totally informed on what happened. Honestly, it was probably the main news story and conversation topic in town.
Yeah, that is a very good point. Although, if they’ve been covering it on the news and stuff, he should have at least known that there was a gun involved, so maybe he’s still in the wrong here. Damn it John, I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, don’t be a dick!
Considering that John’s wasn’t even aware that his little sister got hurt, he may not have heard anything about the incident. I’m not sure how much he communicates with his parents. Do we ever know how long John has been back from India?
*Considering that John wasn’t even aware that his little sister got hurt, he may not have heard anything about the incident. I’m not sure how much he communicates with his parents. Do we even know how long John has been back from India? (Got to start rereading these before I hit post.)
Sounds like Mom gave John his marching orders before he left for lunch. Wait until the new Joyce reveals herself, he may be back in India before he recovers.
Whereas your real name is of course “Cerberus”. Which is an interesting choice…
Because my mind automatically started wondering which name and started looking for similarities to “Cerberus” before I shut it down and told it it was being silly.
Heh. My actual real name is similarly uncommon though nowhere near my nym, so don’t need to worry about it being the name of an awful character any time soon.
Also, high five, Jocelyne. She truly is the best Brown family member. I just hope when Joyce inevitably learns about her she’ll be accepting of it, after all she’s learned, because WE NEED J-SISTER BONDING, STAT.
“Really, Biggest Brother? How SHOULD I react when someone threatens me with a gun? Because the whole ‘be nice and talk it out’ thing didn’t work. Mr. McIntire started the extreme. Do you WANT your only sister to be a doormat?”
Well, of course, a woman’s place is to defer to men, especially older men in the community. Really, she was being the rude one defying him in the first place. Especially when the poor man was just trying to set his family right. (/Carol)
plus everyone knows that the Good Christian Response to having a gun pointed at you is to turn the other cheek–so the gunperson has a better chance at a clean headshot. [/sarcasm]
Does John know the circumstances behind Joyce punching out Ross? I feel like I’ve been the bad guy the last few weeks waiting on hard-and-fast evidence before damning John when most everyone else here is happy to immediately jump on his case. So again, does John know the exact circumstance under which Joyce punched Ross out?
For all we know John is an EXTREME pacifist and while he could find Ross to be utterly repugnant as a human being still find violence (physical, mental, or emotional) to be “extreme.”
I understand the need or desire to take Joyce’s (righteous) side. Joyce was in the right, please do not misunderstand me. I also understand the reaction of siding with the unjustly-suppressed minority. I still don’t think that warrants hostility being the first response to any warning sign.
I think Jocelyne understands the circumstances at least, given that she knows enough about Becky’s situation to know that she’s homeless and looking for work.
I imagine both got a severely edited version of events from “dear old mother”, but Jocelyne may have been the only one of the two to actually do further internet reading on the subject and thus get more of the story.
Admittedly, I mostly think that because I do the same when a news story hits really close to home (*cough cough* House Bill 2 *cough cough*) and so I can totally see Jocelyne frantically searching for as many details as possible about the “from her church” community member who kidnapped and nearly killed his gay kid and threatened Jocelyne’s sister’s life in the process.
Which might also be another part of why Jocelyne offered her secret high five and is going out of her way to show support and inclusion to Becky. Though this is all absolutely wild speculation here, so take it with a massive spoonful of salt.
I am prone to that, too – which is a big part of why I now purposefully avoid news stories with autistic kids in them. I need to for my mental health, because it was taking too much of a toll on me, reading about how yet another one of my people was killed this month and everyone and their goddamn dog wants to talk about how much of a difficult burden to bear they were for their murderer and treat it as a mercy killing rather than a fucking murder which is what it is because apparently being like me is a fate worse than death and renders you into the status of animal in need of putting down.
It’s hard on the head to be reminded of the fact that others see you as sub-human on the regular and to see hoards of autism parents come out in force to defend actual murderers and at best completely ignore their children, their victims. At worst, they paint the child in the worst light possible to try to make the case that the kid deserved it. For being a kid with a disability.
So I try to avoid the news about it. Selfish, I know – ever since I made the conscious decision to step back from that for a bit I’ve felt this sense of guilt for not getting in there all fire and brimstone to defend my humanity but it never seems to make a difference and there’s only so much I can take of being asked to put on the paaaarents shoes and see how difficult it is to take care of kids like me and understand the point of view that treats kids like me as deserving of death (when they never take my perspective, or that of any other autistic person, and consider what it feels like to be told that if your family killed you in childhood it would be “understandable” because of who you are, yet we’re the ones who are supposed to lack empathy).
Anyway, Cerberus, what I’m saying is I totally get the impulse to compulsively read all about yet another horrible thing done to one of yours. *hugs* if you want them?
You don’t need my permission to take care of yourself, but in case it helps, it seems that you’re totally doing the right thing to take a looong break from listening to people saying harmful stupid incorrect stuff about autistic kids on media. If you want to go fire and brimstone, that’s great because your voice is uniquely important, so I hope you will preserve yourself and save that energy for when it’ll do the most good.
I know that feeling all too well. I used to try to stand up for autistic issues but the mental toll just became too much.
I quit touching anything related to cures because between the “you’re being selfish for not wanting people to change everything about how your brain works” to ” I would hold down my autistic relative so someone can fix them” I just…couldn’t.
I don’t blame you. I quit touching on cures for much the same reason.
Never mind that ABA is literally the exact same stuff that was used in the Feminine Boy Project (no, really, Lovaas was also the head of that project, look it up), it’s okay to use on autistic kids. Cuz if you’re autistic, it’s not abuse, it’s therapy. :\
Even if Carol was the first to inform John of the incident, wouldn’t he automatically (a) call Joyce to comfort her/talk to her, or, at least (b) read everything he could find about her in the media?
That’s what a concerned brother would do. I just can’t imagine any positive scenario in which he would start lecturing Joyce about the way she saved herself and others from being shot.
Three options come to mind, ranging from most to least charitable: 1, John hadn’t actually heard about it yet for some reason. 2, Carol “forgot” to mention that Toedad threatened them with a gun. 3, John knows what went on and thinks that Joyce was stepping out of her place to defend Becky.
Insert trite statement on trans people needing to adopt hyper-visibility (and all the risks that entails) in order to be seen as who they are and avoid being misgendered.
I don’t know if you mean that as a criticism of the occasion or just of impractical and privileged mean people, but if it’s for the day I generally approach it as making trans existence visible, rather than individuals? But I do participate outside of places family would see, so I might be a bad source.
More sarcastically slightly bitter statement of acknowledgment of how tireless the act of trans visibility sometimes gets. Like, visibility, fun, wee.
Though that all being said, I really do appreciate all those who’ve gone before me who’ve taken the risk to be visible and outspoken and that empowers me to try and do the same where I can.
One of the main reasons why this Cis-male is working so hard on LGBTQ issues. Because I can take some heat without buckling. I mean hell, people already try to kill me just for riding a bicycle in the street, what’s an occasional pot shot for standing up for a really oppressed minority. Fortunately I haven’t had many of those.
Jocelyn is a woman. Her family said “it’s a boy!!” when she was born but they were mistaken; they think that she’s a man, but she is a woman who hasn’t corrected them yet. A straight woman would like men, whether the woman in question is a transwoman or a ciswoman.
*If someone was assigned male at birth, but identifies as a woman/girl, she is a trans woman/girl. Note the feminine pronoun.
*If someone was assigned female at birth, but identifies as a man/boy, he is a trans man/boy. Note the masculine pronoun.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and identifies with that gender, they are a cisgender person.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and only identifies with that gender sometimes, they are likely genderfluid (people who may identify as men sometimes and women other times and somewhere in between still others). Pronouns used by genderfluid people sometimes vary by how they feel that day and can also include gender neutral pronouns like they and xie.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and does not identify with any gender, they are likely either agender or androgyne. Pronouns used by agender/androgyne people vary person to person but most commonly are gender-neutral pronouns like singular they and xie.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth and they identify somewhere in between the extremes of the gender spectrum, they may be nonbinary. Nonbinary people, IME, tend to prefer gender-neutral pronouns like singular they and xie, as well.
*If someone was ambiguously assigned a gender at birth because their genetalia were ambiguous, or if they have any of a number of genetic conditions, that person is intersex. Pronouns used by intersex people depend on the person.
*If someone is not sure how they identify, they are gender-questioning. A questioning individual may or may not eventually settle on a gender identity, or may identify simultaneously with another gender identity (frex: I know someone who identifies as cis and questioning – their attitude is “Until I figure it out, let’s just default to cis”). Questioning people usually (but not always) use the pronouns associated with their assigned gender.
There are other, culture-specific gender identities (like two-spirit in most First Nations cultures) but that’s the rundown on terminology and pronoun usage of the stuff that comes up most often.
I would just add that “nonbinary” doesn’t just mean “in-between gender spectrum extremes” but actually literally anything other than “man all the time” or “woman all the time” — and that includes being a gender other than man, woman, neutral, or none.
For instance, maverique folks have a gender (not a lack of gender), that’s not in-the-middle or even related to the man/woman binary, and isn’t neutral (some folks do id as gender-neutral or neutrois or other words). And me, I use ilyagender, from il-y-a which is French for “there exists” (roughly). Is my gender the same as a maverique person’s? Idk.
I think of my gender as brown, and a lot of maverique folks use yellow, and then orange is also rad, and some agender folks like black or maybe white or perhaps gray, and then there’s ultraviolet and *then* there’s all the things that aren’t colors. Gender is huge!
tl;dr setting up a WomanMan spectrum is, um, a common but very limiting model. /spectra-BUSTERS
When Ethan says he is considering an English major, she says she can recommend the best and cheapest ramen, suggesting that she is living the starving artist bit. If she lived at home she would be eating Carol’s cooking, not ramen.
And she complains about the low pay of freelance writing in the next strip.
Not all lesbians are accepting of transwomen. Given that Becky only recently refused to believe that it was possible for a person to be attracted to both men AND women, I would expect more LGBTQW faux pas from her in the future.
Quite likely. Though, given the outpouring of support Jocelyne has shown her and how quickly Becky was to change her tune after hearing from bisexual people… Well, I could see her tripping over herself to show her support to Jocelyne even if she has no fucking clue what that means and even though she might say something fucked up in her eagerness to support “whatever the hell that is”.
I agree. Luckily Jocelyn knows Becky and Becky’s aptitude for saying ridiculous stuff, I’m sure she’ll be chill about Becky’s initial faux pas and just happy to know somebody who really wants to be supportive. Same with Joyce. I can hardly wait.
I’m willing to bet that Joss will be chill, but there will come to be a situation where a trans* friend or ally of hers will encounter something similar and will be very justifiably not chill, and this will create a big conflict in some % of Joyce and Joss’ peer groups.
Teenagers: Learn your social security number. Learn it now. Read and type/write it every day until you’ve memorized it. It’s too important to leave in the mercy of your parents’ availability or basic goodness in Becky’s case.
yes memorizing is good. But so is just getting your own birth certificate certified copy from state agency (Dept of Statistics or similar name). Then take that to your SS office and get your own SS card.
If you are in college, the student ID card probably req’d. your ssn. So get it from you college office. Or use the ID card at the SS office to get a new copy.
I’d go one further, and say that you should have physical custody of your own SSN/SIN/whatever acronym the equivalent card has in your country as soon as you’re confident in your ability not to lose it.
Likewise with birth certificate, passport and any other identifying documentation. If your parents question you on it, spin it as wanting to learn how to be responsible for such important documentation before you have to do it on your own.
Fans: This character hasn’t been overtly unpleasant! But he’s from a fundie family. Let’s give him a chance anyway.
Character: I think punching someone who was about to shoot you is an extreme reaction.
Fans: regret
Note: I’m not neccesarily defending John, I’m mearly saying people have a history of being quick to judge.
It is worth noting though that I would do a lot of the same things people get made at the characters for, not the homophobia (fuck that) but I would do stuff like steal pizza from a LGBT support party, and Becky would fit in awesomely amongst me and my friends, who make jokes like she does on almost a daily basis.
People also have a history of bending over backwards to excuse the bigots in the comic, until they go so far over the top it’s undeniable. At which point they become strawmen.
We’ve had several clues now for John, beyond the general “He’s a Brown, so we’re cautious.” He wanted to exclude Becky from lunch. He’s ignored Becky completely. Now this.
I think the general reaction has gone from “Cautious optimism” to “Oh no, please don’t.”
Everything so far is excusable. He could still turn it around. But it’s not looking good.
Oh yeah, Becky, Danny, and most recently Carla are definitely the characters who get the most disproportionate shit for every “fuck up” whether real or imagined.
Yeah, Becky, you don’t want to do that. I’m pretty sure you can go to the SSA and apply for a number if your parents didn’t do this when you were little.
“Yeah, I sprained it on his chin when I uppercut him.”
“…”
“What? Do you not approve?”
“No, I was just unaware that he had a chin.”
Panel 2: Ooh, oh dear, John’s stepping in it a bit here. Could be because he is of the extreme “turn the other cheek” style of Christianity where standing up for oneself is “equally” wrong to receiving violence. Could just be because he’s not keeping in mind the full context of her punching him (while he was threatening her after kidnapping her best friend after pointing a gun at her and then firing a “warning shot”). Either way, though, he’s stepped on a land mine, but hopefully won’t be as big of a dick about it as Carol.
Panel 3: Tick, tick, tick… goes the Joyce bomb.
Panel 4, response 1: Oh, John… you silly goose, no one cares what you think.
Panel 4, response 2: Oh man, is Jocelyne slick here, derailing the guaranteed argument, deliberately including Becky (whom John has yet to actually address directly or even indirectly yet, which is setting off all my passive-aggression alarms), and switching topics in one fell swoop.
Panel 4, immediate follow up response: Oh fuck, she’s used to this isn’t she? Deliberately derailing conversations without looking like she’s picking a fight so as to minimize the amount of hurt she absorbs every time she interacts with family. I now want to give Jocelyne all the hugs in the multiverse.
Panel 5: Oh man, Becky’s body posture here. Her face and eyes say “you’re including me like a regular human part of the family instead of shunning me? This is clearly Space Christmas!”, but her body betrays a distinct discomfort. (I guess she’s still scared, because of everything that has been happening this weekend or maybe it’s the topic of getting housing and work and thus raising the worries she has about being a moocher.
Also, so many happy smiles at Jocelyne clearly caring about her situation as a person instead of making her defend her identity. It’s exactly what Becky needs more of to make her less defensive and more able to relax and process all the shit she’s survived.
Though with all that said, I’m loving the mirror effect going on between Jocelyne and Becky with the clothes and the same slightly guarded body passage. It really underlines the slight tension both are carrying into this family meeting.
Panel 6:
Reaction 1: And a full gesture of support including material support towards finding a job. Again, I’m not sure anyone in comic has explicitly offered this outside of Becky and Dina and this is clearly a huge deal for her. Jocelyne is really doing everything right here in terms of supporting the scared freshly out lesbian.
Reaction 2: Also, I love her dead pan in rejecting the “let me borrow your SS card” joke. No, Becky, identity theft would be something I would advise against… *sweatdrop*
Reaction 3: Oh, man, Becky must have realized in the last week how important that SS card is and is starting to freak out about it. Which raises the spectre of does she even have one or have one at the house that can be found. After all, the Rapturist community I grew up with was very paranoid about government ID cards as potential marks of the beast for the rise of the antichrist. So I could easily see Toedad destroying his daughter’s card. Especially if he knew she wasn’t going to need it for a job, since in his plan she was going to be married immediately or after college and serve as a home school tutor for her kids.
Also, it might be really hard to get a replacement, given that she most definitely doesn’t have a driver’s license or passport and may not even have so much as a school ID from Anderson. Meaning she has no means of proving who she is other than maybe a baby certificate which she may only have a vague idea of where that could be in her undoubtedly police taped or church-picked-over home.
Not that hard. She can get a copy of her birth certificate from her state agency (Dept. of statistics) just by paying a nominal fee for it.
Take that to the SS Office and get her copy of her SSN.
Not all that hard.
I just went thru it for other reasons.
Okay, it’s looking like she still needs to acquire at least a birth certificate and likely a driver’s license if Anderson doesn’t have a qualifying school ID card (because private religious college): https://www.ssa.gov/ssnumber/ss5doc.htm
Oh yes. The Jocelyne/Becky-action is WONDERFUL. In some ways, Jocelyne is behaving a bit like a more toned down Becky who actually has control over what her mouth blabs about – same snark, same cool, same mask.
Panel 3: The piano just stopped playing, the staff is frantically taking down the mirror (just confused for a second about the fact that they didn’t actually have a mirror OR a piano five seconds ago). People are ducking under tables. JOYCE IS DONE TAKING SHIT.
That’s another thing Jocelyne is doing here. In addition to doing it for Becky, I think she’s doing it for John. She’s humanizing Becky. Making it clear she’s a real person, a kid on her own, who needs a safe place and a job and all the usual things a person needs.
She’s not some scary Lesbian monster, even if she’s portrayed herself that way, as her own emotional defense.
That’s a good point. Humanising Becky is important for all of them – for Becky to relax enough to ease up on the Hitler jokes, for John to relate to her as a human, for Joyce to at least delay the explosion she is building up to, and for Jocelyne herself because she probably sees a lot of herself in the scared little queer kid in front of her.
All of both of these. And a really good point of another thing she’s likely doing. And it would be very important to her that her brother be able to see the humanity of a queer pseudo-family member instead of defaulting to the cultural bigotry in which he has been raised.
Hopefully the plan that is felt here that Jocelyne is doing helps.
“Look, here is a close friend of the family, suddenly not conforming to the old world binary gender rules of conformity, and she’s not evil. No horns at all.”
I didn’t even think of that. I hate to be in a position of accidently defending a louse. But what if John’s response here has nothing to do with defending Becky’s dad, and is just him going “nonononono I won’t accept that my baby sister was in that much danger please tell me she didn’t literally have to physically defend herself.” Which would fit with the awkwardness, (he doesn’t know how to deal with the fact that she was in danger.) and ignoring Becky (frankly, I would too if it were my kid sister who had been attacked by someone I knew) maybe his last sentence was going to be “I just think you shouldn’t have put yourself in unnecessary danger.”
He has most certainly got his news partly by a Carol-filter (and partly about a news-filter), so that is a distinct risk… in which case he will have to talk REALLY FAST to convince Joyce of not giving him a demonstration of how she hurt her hand.
I’m mostly worried about his attempt to “well, actually” Joyce before Jocelyne cut him off. Even if he has a truncated or Carol-filtered version of events, it means he didn’t bother reading any news stories involving an incident that happened to his own sister and believes that he’s as valid or more valid authority on the subject than the people who were there and lived it (enough at least to pass moral judgment on Joyce for it).
So even if he’s not being an out-and-out asshole, he’s still being a douchebag.
That’s an interesting scale you have there, I would be interested in knowing the endpoints and middle. I mean obvs you have “asshole” to the right of “douchebag”, but where do Hitler and Saddam fall on the scale?
Seriously, something like this could be invaluable to the comments section.
I’m seeing it as more of a multi-axis thing. Like, even if his asshole axis is low, his douchebag axis is pretty high, but luckily his genocidal fuckwit axis is near zero, so points there.
@Ross: I have a niece who was in a dangerous situation in which her kicking a guy in the nads was entirely just and a tactic which worked. I wish she hadn’t been in that situation, but I’ve never said that; I have, on the other hand, given her huzzahs for her actions given the siuation. I wondered before hand if she might not be going into a dicey situation, but I’ve definitely never said that, never wanted to. She’s awsome and I admire her brass.
In fact, it occurs that the other way around is more likely – not knowing that Joyce punched ToeDad is more likely to come from the news than from Carol.
Likely News Story: ‘The gunman was subdued by a bystander who declined comment.’
Likely Carol reportage: ‘I fear for Joyce’s soul…did you know she punched poor Mr McIntyre?’
Remember that Hank asked the same thing. Joyce’s hand injury wasn’t in the news stories. Wouldn’t have been, unless she was interviewed on camera and she either brought it up or the camera showed the brace.
And obviously Joyce didn’t mention it.
Carol may not even know she punched Ross, though Hank’s may have told her by now.
I’m really hoping that if John is horrible (and has not instead gotten false details as some people suggest), this ends in Jocelyn pulling Joyce and maybe Becky aside, maybe under the guise of ‘I want to hang out with them more, you go visit mom or whatever,’ and coming out now that she has felt out some things.
….well, depending on how gradually jocelyn wants to come out, becky would arguably not be the best choice as one of the first people to whom she does so, given becky’s propensity toward. um. subtlety. heck, as much as joyce wants a sister and jocelyn wants to be known to joyce as a sister, joyce herself is not the best for “i’m actually a lady but please keep it on the DL for the sake of family peace/my personal safety because people can be pretty awful/etc”. joyce is getting better at lying/hiding stuff from her family, but i don’t think she’s quite at the “keeping your sister’s identity as trans a secret from everyone else” level just yet.
I dunno about Becky, I know a lot of loud people who can keep a good secret, and she hasn’t, for instance, talked about Joyce’s assault in front of anyone, even though people absolutely do that sort of thing. Besides, I mean, Becky did a good job of hiding her own sexuality from folks like the Browns, and I’m pretty sure she’d respect doing it for someone else.
Joyce I can see your point; I don’t think she’d tell her parents outright (even if she was uncomfortable with Joc at first- she’s learned over the last while that opening up to her parents puts her in dangerous places with them), but I do absolutely thing she could, in the heat of another argument about which kids turned out how, jump to Jocelyn’s defense and accidentally out her, or something else along those lines.
But besides all this, your concerns are why I figured she’d be putting out feelers throughout the lunch (and I think she is doing so, even if she doesn’t mean to come out anytime soon).
I have a feeling that the foreshadowing is on the wall that when Jocelyne comes out it’s much more likely going to be due to her “saying something she can’t ever take back” followed by an appeal to Joyce and Becky for emotional and familial support now that she knows her life is about to go to shit.
No, before they met up in the restaurant, over the phone he was acting uncomfortable with Becky and people were still treating it as a near certainty that he was sufficiently cool that Jocelyne was out to him.
The option that Joc might be out to him was actually why I thought being uncomfortable with Becky made sense, because she might not be up to being out to Becky yet, especially if it was planned as a just-Joyce thing.
I highly doubt he’s out to her now, but I just wanted to point out that uncomfortable with Becky actually equally supported either option
Dependents SSNs are entered on tax forms. I suppose it’s possible that Mr. McIntyre never bothered to make copies of his 1040 forms, or never filed taxes for many years (really?), but it seems worth bringing up as something that Becky could try to look for in her former home.
Does…. John not know how Mr. McIntyre pointed a gun at Joyce and her friends? Does he seriously not know what events transpired, or is he also possibly just as fucking awful as his mother seems to be?
I could be wrong, but I think that would flag the “Jocelyn” in Jocelyne and turn it into Jocelynee. Then again, that depends on whether the filter is full-word-only (e.g., whether it would turn “bongoy” into “bongoy” or not)
“You see, the important thing to remember is you were both equally extreme. Nothing a bit of prayer can’t fix. He was only looking after his daughter.”
Am I the only one confused by the question mark in panel 6? The sentence seems to be a statement, and she is saying it would be a bad idea to borrow her SSN, but what is the question. (Or is it part of the Indiana dialect of English?)
It’s more to indicate the rise in tone at the end of the sentence, much like a question, rather than to indicate an actual question. It’s the closest English comes to tonal indicators for words.
Just how tuned in to the news that doesn’t pertain to the church and his missionary work is John?
He isn’t on a friendly basis with his parents, any story he heard from them was likely from Carole who thinks Toedad was ‘just doing his fatherly duty’.
He didn’t know how Joyce hurt herself so I think that may be why. I don’t think he knows all of what went on that day.
As to Joycelyn -did good defusing the situation.
Becky needs to send for her birth certificate from the State Dept. of statisics for a nominal fee ($12 for mine). Then use it to walk into a SS Office and get a copy of that. She can even get the SS card by going on line and filling out the forms, and they mail it. Got mine that way in about 2 weeks.
No biggie.
And she likely has all that on file at Anderson college at any rate, and has the right to see it. Just go get it, no one to stop her now.
Oh that’s much less onerous than what I’ve been dealing with. Of course having just been exposed to the internet less than a week ago, I imagine she’s very scared and very without clue on where to begin to access all the paperwork she’s been banned her whole life from knowing about/accessing.
But happy to hear that the process might only be a massive time sink rather than both a time and money sink. Now, here’s to hoping that Toedad wasn’t the sovereign citizen type to deliberately not file a birth certificate.
Like I said above, not knowing how Joyce was injured is evidence against him getting the story from Carol. A news story is likely to not mention her name, or even not mention the punching incident at all, but Carol is likely to fret over Joyce’s soul over it.
If memory serves me right, Hank didn’t know how she injured her hand either until he asked her in the car. If Hank didn’t know until he saw the cast, I find it unlikely that Carol did either. Not saying you’re wrong about John getting his information from the news, mind you. However I find it more likely that Carol’s version of the story is based partially on the same news coverage John got his from, and partially the details she’s made up herself to absolve Toedad of his crimes.
Assuming Becky was born in Indiana, Becky may be in trouble if she can’t get into the house and find some ID. I just checked the requirements to prove identity in Indiana (PDF link), and we don’t know if she has any of that stuff. Her school ID would have been enough, but she was kicked out. If she has a driver’s license or state ID, she’ll be able to get it; do we know if she has one?
As far as we know, she hasn’t been officially kicked out of Anderson. Her father turned up to take her away. We’ve never gotten clear indication if they would have kicked her out. Her roommate wasn’t.
I’d also wonder if they would actually call Anderson to check her status, as opposed to just looking at the expiration date on the ID, if it has one.
I’m so happy we’re seeing Jocelyn again. I was SO happy last time we saw her (which was 2013, but I didn’t read this comic until mid-2014), and when I expressed this to my friend who introduced me to DoA, his response was basically “it’s cool, but we probably won’t see her again.” But she’s back, and this means SO MUCH to me!! I hope Jocelyn continues on as at least a somewhat reoccurring minor character.
She has resonated with me for so long, but I never really understood why. But now I realize that after growing up in a home much like Joyce’s, coming to terms with being bi was hard enough, but I’m starting to come to terms with my gender identity as well. When I read Jocelyn’s arc two years ago, I felt a connection with this character that I’ve never felt before. She meant a LOT to me. I’m finally understanding why! I’m so happy we’re seeing her again in this comic!!
$5 for every $1, so pretty good odds. John’s sitting at $2 for every $1, but that goes up every time he opens his mouth this dinner, so best to put those bets in quick.
Jocelyne’s sitting at a comfortable $2000 for every $1.
I can’t see Joyce striking Carol, no matter how unpleasant she is, unless she’s an actual physical threat to someone. However, I can see her delivering an excoriating monologue in which she denounces her family’s attitudes towards Becky and, possibly Jocelyne and Jordan and then storming out, her head held high.
That said, from the preview pictures we’ve been seeing, I suspect that Hank and Carol are going to send an extra-family ‘authority figure’ to try to ‘reason’ with Joyce. When she rejects his ‘counsel’, she’ll be thrown out of the family home with Hank doing his usual passive acquiescence with his wife’s bigotry. As above, I suspect she’ll leave with her head held high.
Either way, it won’t be until she’s sitting on the verge of the highway with Becky, trying to hitch a lift back to Bloomington, that she’ll burst into tears.
I agree that she won’t punch Carol, but we know from her date with Joe that striking brothers is another matter, and I’m pretty sure we will see it soon enough unless Jocelyne manages to keep distracting them.
Unless of course the tables are not bolted down – a table flip would work just as well.
For a moment, while the comic had only a few comments, I was genuinely worried that we’d get an outpouring of people yelling at Becky about identity theft. I am so glad to feel completely silly about that unfounded worry.
Given how nicely Jocelyne shuts him down, I suspect she’s the conflict queller in the family – for obvious reasons. That’s also a pretty big hint that she knows where he was likely to go and that it was going to be bad.
Which still doesn’t mean he’s quite as terrible as Carol.
Though I’d think that if it were a matter of being surprised Joyce would fight anyone, he’d want to know what happened to cause her to act so out of character. I don’t read much concern for her in his reaction, though that could also be put down to him not knowing how to respond whatsoever and falling back on the ol’ “ladies shouldn’t act that way.”
I am a pacifist. I do not believe in me using violence against other people. I generally don’t think other people should do so either.
BUT, two things:
One: I have, in my adult life, never been subject to a situation where rational thought might be thrown out of the window. I have never been in a situation where instinct takes completely over. And I do not know how I would react then. Maybe I’d become violent after all. Heck, I know I harbor violent instincts, it would be naive of me to think otherwise. For me it isn’t about not wanting to be violent. It’s about (rarely) wanting it but not allowing the wanting to become reality. I think most people are like that anyway, I go just a bit farther in cementing this attitude.
Two: I have led an intensely lucky life in my adult situation. I have not lived life in a society that seeks to actively oppress me and/or the people I care about. I have not been in a fundie household that wants to eradicate my gay friends. I have not lived life as a common person in Burma during decades of military dictatorship. The list goes on and on and on.
So if f.ex. Joyce punching Toedad happened in real life, and I got to learn all the details around it? I could not condemn her for that. I just could not. It’s sad, of course it is sad… But nowhere near as sad and horrible and extreme as the whole situation leading up to it.
I can really only be a pacifist on my own behalf. I can give my opinions to other people if they ask for it. I will not ever truly condone violence. But I also cannot and will not condemn all acts of violence equally.
I could see a devout pacifist saying something like “I understand the impulse, in that horrible situation, but violence is still wrong” or in a more Christian context, “but we are still commanded to turn the other cheek”.
“That’s a pretty extreme reaction” just doesn’t go there. It implies it’s an extreme reaction to the situation, not that it’s a thing we should never do. It implies there might be situations where it would be appropriate, but this wasn’t one of them. I just can’t read that and think “sympathizes with her, but is pacifist”.
And at the very least, you don’t condemn your sister for the violence without first condemning Ross’s greater violence and making sure she knows how glad you are she’s alright and that Becky’s safe and how screwed up Ross was to have done that in the first place. Especially in this context, where you know she can’t be sure you’re going to approve.
Everything we explicitly don’t see from John here.
There goes my theory that John is another secretly not-so-conservative sibling (or hiding a secret husband). He seems pretty old-fashioned here, assuming Joyce was in the wrong for fighting without even knowing the situation. Or he’s just really, REALLY bad at reading social cues.
“No you’re totally right the next time someone is kidnapping my best friend at gunpoint I will offer them my hand in marriage and a blowjob, that sound better bro?”
Seriously I really hope it turns out he doesn’t know the whole story or he will join Joyce’s mom on my list of horrible fucking people. I know people aren’t one dimensional but there is abstractly saying something horrible and then specifically saying something horrible.
This isn’t like a casual racist who treats people they are racist against with respect and dignity regardless of their beliefs. This is a person who looked the person they are prejudice against and effectively said, “You are not a person you are property owned by the man in your life right now that is your father. You and me are slaves because we are women our men own us and he shouldn’t be in jail for trying to ‘fix’ his property” That’s effectively what her blaming Becky shit boils down to.
She can justify it however she wants but when you determine that anyone has the right to enforce their will over your or anyone else’s then you have enslaved yourself and others to that person.
Ah, here’s where I can see Jocelyne being the peacemaker. I read Willis’ comment on Tumblr the other day about her pacifying Becky, but didn’t properly connect the dots til now.
It’s a survival mechanism when you’ve got a rickety and untenable closet and a family on the verge of shattering. Just keep the peace, settle everyone down and maybe a big enough argument to make you snap and reveal yourself won’t happen.
Even in a family that isn’t a stressful mess, it’s super common for a middle child to be the mediator/peacemaker, so Jocelyn gets it from every direction.
Best case scenario, the way John puts emphasis on the word ‘pretty’ instead of the word ‘extreme’ could imply he suddenly felt very awkward for bringing up Toedad and made a hasty attempt to derail the conversation. With an added case of foot in mouth. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
john will most likely turn out to be a bad person, but logically you dont have to be a bad person (or not have a secret husband or any of the other theories) just cause you say that punching someone is extreme and starting to say “i just think”. f.ex, “thats a pretty extreme reaction” might just be him trying to talk but failing. or he thinks its an extreme reaction for being joyce who might not like violence, maybe she was totally againdt it when she lived at home? or maybe he thinks its an extrme reaction in general, not taking into account that the person she punched was ready to kill which is more extreme. he might not even know that there was killing or suicide or guns involved. “i just think” could be anything. “i just think you shouldve been more careful (with your hand)” “i just think the police shouldve taken care of it” “i just think brocolli is tasty, why does everyone hate it?”
I do find it odd that kids these days are born with a SSN. I had to fill out and sign a bunch of paperwork to get my SSN; when I first heard about babies having SSNs my reaction was, “babies can sign their names?”
Yeah, that’s my fear for what her full situation is. If it is, Becky essentially will be in the same boat as an undocumented worker and all the fun that entails.
She’ll actually be an undocumented worker, which is why I don’t like that particular turn of phrase. I get that people don’t like “illegal” being a description for a noun describing a person, but the illegal residency is the actual issue.
And I say that as someone who supports amnesty, wants the U.S. to be more open to immigration, and totally feels for people coming from such horrible lives that even coming or staying here illegally seems like the better option.
So far, the best I’ve got is “illegally immigrated person.” Or, less formally “people who are here illegally.”
trlkly used a perfectly legitimate phrase: “People who are here illegally.” It is the location, not the existance that is illegal. If I were found inside Microsoft headquarters, I would be there illegally. However I got in would have to have been illegal entry.
She’d be an undocumented worker IF she could get work without an SSC/SSN — but wouldn’t it be illegal to hire her without those, so she’d be illegal? AND ALSO as Cerberus says, “made illegal for simply existing”, existing as who they are, here today in the USA.
I’m tellin’ ya, man, the eyes are a give away. Any Brown family member without Them Big Ol’ Baby Blues is (based on what evidence I’ve been able to discern) a tremendous fuckwit.
A few years ago, a young woman had to sue her parents to get her birth certificate. She was home schooled and born at home, so her parents never bothered to apply for one. When, as an adult, she tried to live on her own, she did she couldn’t get a job without it and the SSN card. (She lived in one of those families where the daughters stay at home under their father’s leadership until passed over to a husband.)
Anyway, Becky and her SSN card made me think of that.
I get the feeling like a different version of the story is going around. I’m actually curious as to how John would have finished that sentence, because I’m betting he doesn’t even know a gun was involved.
It might even be that Jocelyne chose to pick a slightly more female coded ensamble than usual, just to support Becky’s coming out.
In either case, awesome!
I feel like I say this every time but I just really love Jocelyne so much. The way she shuts John up and her last panel dialogue are the best. She’s bae.
Man, if we made a drinking game out of “a Brown says something awful” we’d all die of alcohol poisoning. Not Jocelyne, though. Jocelyne is cool. I also like how incredibly befuddled she is at Becky request for her SSN, “that’s so incredibly stupid that I’m going with wait, what as my response.”
Even if Jon doesn’t know that Becky’s dad pointed a gun at Joyce, if he has watched or read any news on it at all then he knows about the gun and that Becky was kidnapped.
Jon knows that Mr. McIntire brought a gun onto a school campus. Even if he doesn’t know specifics, his “extreme response” comment is way out of line.
Jon being a pacifist does not explain or justify this either. Personally believing that all violence is wrong does not mean you tell someone that stomped on the foot of the guy who was holding a knife to their neck to escape that they’re the one who “overreacted”. That is victim-blaming bullshit. You want to tell someone not to be violent, how about you start with the guy you know had a weapon.
I swear Jon, I was willing to keep the benefit of the doubt very open for you. If the end of that sentence wasn’t gonna be “…. I just think you should find a way to mete out justice that doesn’t damage yourself. A nice kick to the nads would’ve been as effective but far easier on your joints”
“God bless the human elbow!
God bless it where it bends:
If it bent too long we’d be dry I fear;
If it bent too short we’d be drinking through our ear!”
Which is very, very frightening, because up here by the Great Lakes we have the impression that NC is one of the more rational parts of the Confederacy.
I really like the art in this one, particularly how Jocelyne is drawn. Her body language reads very feminine, but in a subtle way, which is impressive since it seems like in a lot of things I see, the only real indication of gender is outward cues like body and hair. Maybe exaggerated motions, like trying to be sexy (or anime cutsie poses), which this isn’t. Good job!
You know, it only just occurred to me, but wouldn’t BeckyXJocelyn be pretty much the perfect pairing? Admittedly, we don’t know for sure whether Jocelyn prefers guys or girls, (her interactions with Ethan suggest MAYBE guys, but that might also have just been reaching out to an obvious kindred spirit, so it’s hard to say) but Becky is pretty open-minded, and I think she wouldn’t have much trouble getting over the fact that Jocelyn doesn’t have the right equipment, especially considering that she looks almost EXACTLY like the girl Becky has been crushing on all her life. And on top of that Jocelyn understands where Becky is coming from better than pretty much anybody else.
I hesitate to support anything in this comment section that will make Dina sad, since that’s a good way to get tarred and feathered around here, but I think it could work out. Dina and Becky’s relationship always struck me as kinda’ unhealthy, (with Becky on the rebound and Dina mostly trying to prove everybody who thinks of her as just a little girl and can’t imagine her in a relationship wrong) so sad as it might be, I’m pretty much with Sarah on the idea of it being doomed to fail. Until events prove it wouldn’t work, I am officially on the S.S. BeckyXJocelyn.
See, I tend to think people can be kind to and supportive of eachother without it having to be a ship.
Maybe it’s me, and I’m out of touch or something, but life’s pretty rough sometimes and you help eachother along as best you can. Doesn’t make it a super-kawaii pairingfest when you do.
And I don’t get this weird idea where relationships having problems means they have to be stop. Perfect relationships are boring. Becky/Dina was fine and dandy at the start but eventually them just being cute and happy would get old.
Yes, that would get old quick. I mean, just week after week with mouth-smooches and dinosaurs and running around like doofuses and hugs and adorable museum dates and Becky babbles and Dina-discussions… who would want that?
It’d be hella boring to read about after a while, is what I was getting at. For a series that has a lot of romance drama, a relationship with none of that would be a giant snoozefest. Walky/Dorothy are pretty stable and happy, and then every once in a while the drama breaks loose and Dorothy’s talking about how leaving one day is going to break her heart and Walky’s clamming up because he doesn’t want to admit he’s going to miss her. A relationship that can end is always more interesting than one with no difficulty.
TBH, apart from my already documented love of how Dina is a neurodivergent woman who is treated with dignity and seeks out a relationship because it’s something she wants and enjoys, I also really like how Becky/Dina isn’t this automatically perfect romance that will last for all eternity, and instead they have problems like every other relationship ever.
I don’t know. Some of my favorite relationships in comics are ones that you can take for granted and they become part of the social structure of the comic. Obvious ones are most marriages, but I think Tedd and Grace from El Goonish Shive is also great, even though even the author, looking back, admits it started as wish fulfillment and so was designed to go from 0-60 quickly and work out forever from the start, and that probably wasn’t the best way to write it. But he’s used it to great effect since then.
I think in a relationship drama centered series like DOA, they don’t really work. My favourite webcomic romance ever, Joyce and Walky, were basically destined together from Day 1. Despite this, there was angst and drama and romantic false leads, and when they finally do get together halfway through It’s Walky!, it starts the next story for them, and their relationship is thoroughly explored until the end of the series. There’s really no question that they not stay together, but we still see them work hard to make their relationship succeed. A nice simple relationship sounds great to me, but it makes for boring fiction.
Like, the relationship I’m most invested in right now is Amber/Danny, partly because they’re my favourite characters, and partly because they’re in such a precarious place that they can go anywhere. Them working through their problems together is just as viable a possibility as it all ending really painfully, and that’s what’s most interesting to me.
…can I question the “doesn’t have the right equipment” bit? We have no idea what Jocelyn’s physical transition status is, nor is it the kind of thing I’m comfortable speculating on. Wayyyy too close to real life grossness (and all the awful transmisogynistic reasons given for not wanting to date trans women).
Also like, yeah, lesbian does not equal genital preference, it equals gender preference. Which yes causes a huge stink when cis lesbians try to separate out trans women as undateable as a stable category.
Is it outside the realm of possibility that he just didn’t get the whole story?
I mean if he’s distant from his own family, he might have heard “that guy we used to know that we (at least Dad) tolerate, but it’s a stretch, is in the hospital”, or something and just went “oh”.
Honestly, I have no idea what the rest of the world off-campus is like, from how it’s depicted here, but I wouldn’t assume everyone takes gunplay, Jurassic Park recreation, chase-scenes involving troubled young people dressed as superheroes, motorcycle tricks and so on for granted as a thing that happens. If someone told me a synopsis of what happened, I sure wouldn’t believe it. 😉
Yeah that sums it all up. He MIGHT be mistaken. He MIGHT have the wrong idea. He MIGHT build up to hand Joyce the Best-Sibling-Award, punching douchbag level…
But from his perspective, however limited his information he could also consider that little miss never-disobey-an-authority-figure Joyce MIGHT have punched the man with the gun with a good reason. That Becky’s situation MIGHT be bad enough that Joyce over-protective stance is justified and that it MIGHT be worth meeting her with trust and support while getting the full story.
Yeah, the only way John gets out of this looking good at all is if he’s been straight up lied to, like nobody told him about the gun. And even then, it’s more a matter of looking a bit less bad.
There are two ways I see John going, and neither of them are a repeat of Carol. The first, and the most hopeful, is that he is the person who has to be convinced. That he’s grown up being indoctrinated, and it’s going to take him time to come to terms with it. You have to remember that even Joyce is moving way faster than is remotely realistic. I’m not even sure about Hank.
The second is that he’s going to be the “well-meaning” antagonist. You know, the one that tries to be nice, thinking you get more flies with honey, unlike Carol who just wants to be a bongo about the whole thing. You know, those nice people that have these horrible views.
I guess a third interpretation, and one I guess I’d be okay with, is that he’ll see Joyce’s reaction as sinful, but understandable. You know, someone in between Hank who is proud and Carol who thinks it’s horrible. Kinda the equivalent to the Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin, but that there’s no reason to hate anyone because of it, and that they should have the right to be married if they want it.
Hasn’t been time for a raid on Chez MacIntyre, despite all the demands for it from the commentariat. Some people assume it has either been sealed off by the police or stripped by the church.
I hate to say it, but look at his family. They’ve all been very judgmental about things and people before they know anything about them. Even Joyce, when we first met her, while she tried to be nice about it, was still clearly bothered by other people’s alternate life-decisions or lifestyles (like Atheism).
It’s also quite possible that Becky doesn’t actually have a SSN. Some fundies don’t register their children’s births at all. Then it’s a big hassle to get a SSN as an adult.
Possible, but unlikely. Ross and the Browns were in the same church and the same circles. Obnoxious as they are, they’re not quite to that level. Sadly, LGBTQ-hating fundies are pretty run of the mill. Those that refuse to even let the government know about their kids are a lot rarer.
Well, I don’t know the average age that someone gets their Social Security number… I think my parents applied for mine when I was 7 or 8. Basically, not long after I started learning cursive (which is why my signature on my card looks NOTHING like my signature today). But definitely before the age of even learning anything about sex or sexual identity. (At least for me… maybe I was a slow learner.)
Doesn’t she.
It’s neat to see her going into grown-up mode, despite her obvious preference for high-fives and teasing Joyce. She realizes that no one else will. She can’t trust her parents to do it because she knows their prejudices well. (She’ll probably be surprised Hank’s come as far as he has.) And she’s right about that. She sees John not doing it. She knows Joyce (and by extension any other friends at school) aren’t capable of it because they’re not really adults yet, just like Becky’s still growing up.
And she probably knows people who’ve gone through similar things, so she’s got a good idea what the struggles are. She’s probably planned it out for herself, back when she was still at home or at school: What would happen if they found out?
So here she is, asking the practical all grown up questions and trying to figure out how to help.
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I’m… pretty sure they don’t work that way, Becky… or, don’t ASK to steal the person’s identity
X-TREEM PROPORTIONALITY
X-TREEM proportionality is like figure drawing, while skateboarding off a helicopter over exploding sharks. Also it’s a really big mug.
That sounds awesome 😀
she got her first piece of advice! next she should ask to borrow financial stability and super powers
Borrow super powers?
Becky is this universe’s Traci 13!
Wrong Coven member. That’s Black Alice’s power. Traci’s power is simple magic, especially drawn from cities.
I shouldn’t be surprised that someone else came up with the name “Black Alice”, but I am. Though theirs wasn’t a little girl, so I think the random idea I came up with for someone else to write in Creative Writing wins.
Terry Pratchett had a “Black Aliss”. We never met her in the books; she was a witch who lived up near Lancre somewhere and went a bit funny from keeping herself isolated. Started cackling and whatnot. Died when a couple of brats shoved her into her own oven.
Very common, apparently, but “Black Alice” still sounds like a name for someone young, or who looks young, to me.
You’re right, got them confused.
In this world, aren’t they one and the same?
Wealth IS the ultimate super power.
I mean it’s more polite than not saying anything and stealing it.
AU where becky does steal Jocelyne’s identity:
Jocelyne: “Why do I keep getting checks from… Chik-Fil-A?”
Becky: “Whoops! Guess I shoulda put my address on all those applications…”
….wait is Jocelyne into chicks or dudes or Yes, cuz that AU could go interesting places depending on the answer =P…hell depending on the answer, THIS ‘verse can go interesting places, what with becky’s attraction to joyce…and Joyce’s face…which lets face it Lyn kinda has. (shush i call her Lyn cuz its a cute name)
i don’t believe her orientation has been covered, just her gender identity. we might infer her to be into dudes from her saying “not ACTUALLY gay” to mean instead of being a dude into dudes she’s a lady into dudes, but that doesn’t preclude bisexuality or pansexuality. she might also be a ____romantic asexual. who knows! it is a fun surprise.
or a tragic surprise, david willis being who he is, but yeah.
Her sexuality is that being hit on by Becky makes her explode.
Last time this came up, someone told me Willis confirmed that she’s straight.
rrr ‘straight’ is a meaningless term with the transgendered *cue hetero-homo / andro-gyno rant*!!
Not… really.
It’s fraught with complications, though, especially for someone who already considers themselves “queer.”
Well, yeah, sexuality terms get very… inadequate for non-binary individuals at least or for variations of pansexuality or panromanticism (what would be the term for someone who is sexually attracted to only women and non-binary for instance), but it’s pretty easy for a binary trans person who identifies as either straight, gay, or bi/pan.
She is a woman. She is attracted to men. Thus, straight. Not difficult.
Beyond this statement being bewildering, it’s generally not considered polite to call us “the transgendered.”
They live among us.
They help us at the grocery store, at the dentist’s office, even the dog park isn’t safe.
Coming this fall…
*THE TRANSGENDERED*
North Carolina’s travel advisories just keep getting weirder.
I dunno, they seem pretty simple to me: “LGBTQ people go away”
I so agree. I wish people weren’t so comfortable saying “The Asians” either.
I hope Jocelyne is into Yes, they’re a good band.
I thought about this, too, when people were talking about the Browns setting her up with Becky to “straighten” them out. I thought it would be hilarious if they got together as a lesbian couple.
But then I remembered her telling Ethan that she’s not gay. I’m surprised Cerberus didn’t mention it, actually.
To be fair, I’m a dyke who adamantly considers myself not gay. For me (and for a lot of queer women, though not all), “gay” is a term that centers men’s experiences and I’m not interested in that at all.
Hah. I came back to post the link and thought about that–that she might consider herself lesbian but not gay.
Here’s a link to the strip: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/nope/
And, yes, I guess she could be bi. Or see lesbian and gay as two separate things. But being straight is the easiest interpretation.
Well, telling someone you’re not gay and not being gay aren’t exactly the same thing. Up until I heard that Willis had confirmed her heterosexuality, I was open to the possibility that, since she was presenting as “Josh” at the time, “I’m not gay” was code for “I’m not into dudes.” She hadn’t come out to Ethan at the time, actually.
Now that would be a relationship fraught with drama and angst: Ethan and Jocelyne. He might see it as the closest he can get to actually being straight while she can be trying to be okay with the fact that he isn’t actually interested in her but in the character she sometimes has to play.
She should use John’s. Spending all that time in India, he probably barely uses it.
Yeah, don’t want to let it get rusted… Social Security Numbers are like cars that way, right?
I’m surprised they weren’t surprised by Joyce swearing to God in the last strip
Think it’s less iffy since she just said “As God is my witness” and they were raised to believe God witnesses everything so it’s just stating facts.
See, “As god is my witness” is definitely kosher, whereas “I swear to God” is not.
I suppose there would be a difference between “I swear to God” and “I swear at God”, then, too?
Though it makes me wonder which happens more, swearing to Him, or swearing at Him…
Hmm…
So…God watches when you go number 2?
Yes. He’s everywhere.
God, Santa Claus, the NSA…
Becky must have a Social Security number, surely?
She doesn’t know it – and her father is not in the mood to reveal it.
As I have suddenly realized I don’t actually remember where social security card is, I feel like there has to be some way to request this information.
There is! It’s kind of a beurocratic pain though, so see if you can find it, first. You need that thing.
(bureaucratic*)
I know, I expected my phone to correct it for me, and then it didn’t, and then I couldn’t stop seeing my spelling error.
Do we actually need the card, not just the number?
Fwiw, I did have occasion to get my card replaced and I recall it as being easy, but I had all of the ID that they wanted right to hand
For hiring paperwork? Yes, you need the physical card.
nah, you only need ONE of:
ONE unexpired “List A” document proving BOTH identity and authorization to work in the U.S. – e.g., U.S. Passport OR Permanent Resident Card OR Employment Authorization Document/Card OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND I-94 issued at port of entry OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND temporary I-551 stamp on a Machine-Readable Immigrant Visa OR (combination) Foreign Passport AND Form I-20 CPT/OPT document
==OR==
ONE “List B” document proving identity AND ONE “List C” document proving authorization to work in the U.S.
List B examples: driver’s license OR ID card issued by a federal or state institution (e.g., DMV, military, USDA, etc.) OR expired permanent resident card OR school ID OR Native American tribal document
List C examples: SSN card OR birth certificate OR certified copy of birth record OR certificate of naturalization OR Native American tribal document
…damn it I can’t even get away from work HERE, I didn’t cut-and-paste any of that or look it up, and it’s not even all the possible examples (and no we don’t know why “Native American tribal document” can’t count as List A)
That’s why mine’s in a safe place right next to my birth certificate and passport.
… do you remember where that place is?
Look. It’s not safe if you know where it is! Then you might tell burglars.
Mine too! My parents had them in a thing and just gave me that when I moved out.
Mine is in my wallet, I pretty much carry it around at all times. I’m not weird. Just french :p
I do not remember where mine is either. But I have it memorized forever now so I guess I do not need it.
obs haven’t rented an apartment, lately – many landlords require a copy of your actual Social Security card, as proof of identity.
Mine is in pieces as it fell apart after years of carrying it around.
I never had to present the card itself.
I just remember the number and that’s all they usually ask for.
Interestingly enough, though, the Social Security Administration says that SSN cards cannot be laminated (it invalidates them), and that one should always carry it around like a second piece of ID. (Not sure why, though, as without a picture on it, nobody accepts it as ID. Passport – valid ID. Driver’s Licence/State ID card – valid ID. Birth Certificate – not valid ID. SSN card – not valid ID.)
The one that bugs me is that an expired Driver’s License/State ID card is no longer valid picture ID for stuff like alcohol. It’s not like the picture goes bad or one’s birthday is suddenly false… It’s just annoying, especially when you’re dealing with that time between getting your ID stolen and getting it replaced.
Ah, I forgot to mention – the SSN also believes there is no reason to laminate the card as they say it’s completely replaceable if lost or destroyed. (Replacing official documents is a pain, though – but I don’t think they really care about that part.)
It’s because its expired, of course! Would you put expired mayo on your turkey sandwich, or expi red milk in your coffee? It makes perfect bureaucratic sense? How could they tell the picture is of you if it’s expired? Or your birthday might have changed!
I lost my National Security (UK equiv.) card decades ago. When I’m filling in forms, I just copy the number from previous practice forms. Of course, by this point, the number on the practice form was copied from an earlier practice form, which was copied from an earlier… So occasionally I worry that I made a transcript error somewhere and all my records are wrong.
Then again, I’ve worked for The Beaurocracy, and they never said “Your NI number doesn’t make sense”, so it’s probably fine.
National Insurance, hence NI. My brain just combined the two terms.
Oh, come on! The spillchucker told me to spell bureaucracy that way (admittedly, autocompleting from “beaur”) and it’s clearly wrong!
Still wrong.
The correct spelling is bureaucrazy!
All she has to do is go to the social security office with id, like her student card from old college. Any id that would require her to have has a ssn to get it.
Tell them it’s lost and they will replace it.
I just did that awhile back because the first one went thru the wash and it’s a long story as not usually out of the box I keep stuff like that in.
Oh really?? I thought you had to send in a copy of your birth certificate and so on, I like this much more and would be happy to be on outdated or wrong info.
I recently helped a friend get hers, and I think all she had was a federal disability check. Might have had birth certificate or something too. I know for a fact she didn’t have any picture ID.
The problem with that is that Anderson doesn’t require a SSN to enroll (I think you still need one for financial aid).
Well, she is in her hometown, and dad is in jail, she should be able to get into her house and search it, along with gathering clothes, etc.
Maybe she doesn’t know ot and doesn’t know how to find out.
Exact knowledge of her SSN would give her greater agency. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ross kept it under wraps.
It really doesn’t need to be that nefarious. I definitely had noooo idea what my social security number was or what the deal was until I got my first job. My parents kept it in a safe place with the family’s other documents and would grab it if it were really needed. I think that’s where Becky is. She’s never had to think too hard about it before, or memorize it ’cause it’s never been an issue.
yea but its probably at her old house
Another parenting failure–kids should know their SSN going into college.
It could have been a deliberate means of control, as well.
She can get one (SSN) but she’s going to need her birth certificate.
Depending on exactly how doomsday prepper Ross was, maybe, maybe not? I’ve heard of people not having a SSN because their parents were super conspiracy theorist types, but I’m not sure that still happens in this day and age.
It may depend on his relationship with things government. Some very antigovernment people are the first in line for any goodies they can get off the government.
It still happens. It’s harder to function without them these days but people still do it.
A lot of employers (if not all) require the actual card, to photocopy.
I have no idea what the state they’re in has for laws about replacements. The problem is that, I’m guessing, she doesn’t have the secondary ID stuff (birth certificate, license, etc) to prove it’s her. (Toedad seems like a lockbox kinda guy about the first, and a ‘no’ guy on the other.) So she wouldn’t be able to just get another one.
I’m guessing at least part of the visit home is meant to be for a Daring Raid On The Toe Compound to get the stuff she needs to have a life, again.
Huh, really? I’ve never had a job that asked to see my actual card.
It depends on where you are and what you look like. As I understand it, in some areas if you look even slightly “ethnic” they will insist on seeing your work permit or Visa, or your birth certificate to prove that you don’t need a permit or Visa. Guilty until proven innocent?
Jesus.
(See what I did there?)
Recently overheard at a store check out, “I don’t care if you’re God himself. I still need to see two forms of ID”. 🙂
‘That’s impressive, but I meant two forms of *paper* ID. And also if you could turn those people back from pillars of salt and make the drinking fountains stop flowing red that would be greatly appreciated.’
To be fair that could just be CYA. Isn’t it illegal to hire illegals? What’s the penalty? Of course… I suppose that white, European looking person could actually be European and here illegally too. I’d probably want to check IDs on everyone I hired if I were doing so just to CMA, not necessarily because I want to discriminate against anyone.
Yeah, people assume all undocumented workers are latin@. Interestingly enough, none of the undocumented people I’ve known have been latin@, and instead were asian or white european.
Or Canadians!
Seriously.
The Canadian version of National Geographic Channel plays several variations of the show Border Security, dealing with customs and immigration personnel from Australia, Canada, and the US at work. They’ve had a range of people who are trying to work and/or establish permanent residence in Canada without getting the proper paperwork, including Europeans and Americans.
Please don’t call people illegals. They’re undocumented workers or undocumented migrants. People are not illegal.
Yeah, they haven’t passed a law against being Mexican yet.
It’s the “yet” that worries me. You know who I’m thinking of.
There are too many groups around the world these days that want it to be illegal to be “Not Us”. It seems like the only difference between the human tribalism of 50,000 years ago and now is the efficiency of the weapons.
yeah, I thought The Onion was supposed to be satire
Yes, it’s against the law. But everyone looks the other way. That’s why the whole system even works. You can’t get laws passed that would make it genuinely hard to hire people who are here illegally.
I won’t get into the argument about whether this is a good or bad thing. Just that there really isn’t anyone trying to stop it. The focus is always on kicking the people out.
Many government jobs (federal and not) require it. The military did, for sure.
Every job I have had required a copy of my card.
Same here.
That username is a suspiciously specific denial if ever I heard one. Makes me wonder what Piffany would be like if she got the DofA!Joyce treatment.
Oh, I think we know.”
I’ve had a few renters that require a photocopy of my Soc Sec card, as proof of identity. They need this for credit checks. Most employers I’ve worked for need proof of identity, so either a Soc Sec card or a passport. Driver’s license is proof of state residency, but not proof of identity – government is very strict about this.
I’ve never seen this. A social security card isn’t proof of identity. A driver’s license is.
A social security number is useful for credit checks, which is why landlords want them, but showing a card isn’t any more useful than just writing the number down.
I have never encountered that ever.
(First few jobs I had, I didn’t even have an SSN. I got good at bullshitting my way through it.)
She’d still need the number. I’ve filled out a bajillion and a half applications in my time and they all required the number on the paperwork and a scan of my ss-card and either driver’s license or passport once hired.
And she’s said she doesn’t actually know her SS card number:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/socialsecurity/
Sooo, yeah, she’s pretty fucked at the moment.
See, now not knowing your SSN, at college age, seems like a stretch. I mean, Becky doesn’t seem like she could skate by without loans, and I know the FAFSA requires your SSN.
She’s supposed to be a bit of a flibbertigibbet, but still.
I don’t think Toedad bothered with FAFSA or if he did, he handled all the paperwork.
Like, Toedad is super fucking abusive, the likelihood that he allowed her to take the lead in anything about her life is really really low.
I don’t know my SSN either. Granted, I have my card and know where it is, so if I need it I can find it no problem. But Becky doesn’t seem like she would have access to it.
I dunno, college is pretty much the first you start needing it, and even if she has used it once or twice, that may not have been enough to memorize with.
I didn’t have mine memorized until mid-20s.
And not a stretch at all that Becky wouldn’t know it and might not even have it – many of the girls from fundie families I knew didn’t have social insurance numbers (Canada’s equivalent to your SSN – with a much more amusing acronym!) until they filled out the paperwork on their own – usually after breaking ties with their families and winding up without any way to make money above the table for a few weeks while the application completed.
(And that was the girls lucky enough to have birth certificates and photo IDs. Ones who’d been born as home births might not have either and they were royally fucked)
My nephew in college did not know his offhand and did not have a card with him. I had to dig it up out some old forms.
Same, no one has ever asked to see my actual card, ever. That’s completed college, several job applications, a few actual jobs, government license applications, bank accounts, and more.
Yeah, never been asked for the card ever, not once, not ever. Number – once I had one late in college – yes. Card? No. I don’t even know where it is. If I had to have a scan of it? I’d be fucked.
Whether the employer needs it or not is based on the U.S. !-9 verification requirements. Basically, unless you’re using a Passport (Foreign or U.S.) or a Permanent Resident card, you need to have an Identity Document (basically some sort of photo ID) and an Employment Authorization Document (SSN card or Birth Certificate/Native American Tribal Document or Dept. of Homeland Security Employment Authorization Document).
So, there are ways around using SSN, but she would have to present another document, and just knowing an SSN isn’t enough.
I think it used to be more flexible, but given the state of heightened vigilance/fear/panic here in the U.S., it isn’t anymore. (I do miss those days you could meet a family member/loved one at the airport gate…)
Weird. That should have been I-9, not !-9.
Becky is within a few miles of her home, right now. I am sure all her papers are there waiting for her. I kind of hoped that is where the road trip would end up.
Somewhere. And that’s assuming he has a good filing system rather than just burying old paperwork like that in a box somewhere. And I guarantee she was never made privy to where that information is.
She may try anyways, but it’s a pretty big crapshoot that she’ll be able to just stumble upon all her necessary paperwork.
Honestly she may have better luck going to the local social security office and seeing if she can have a new card sent out, I had to do that after I lost mine. They’ll mail it to you but the have a temporary sheet that functions as a SSC in the meantime. However, I’m not sure how hard it would be for her to get it, what hoops she’d have to jump through.
Unless they live on a multi building compound, there are only so many places in a house someone would keep their papers.
“Only so many places” can be a lot of places though as anyone who’s had to take care of the stuff in a passed on relative’s space can attest.
I so attest.
Assuming they’re in the house and not a safe deposit box.
She might need to stop at the hardware store along the way. I bet that things locked up and she doesn’t have the combination or key.
Lapsed licenced tax professional with no practical experience here:
What Becky can do (if she isn’t in the system or if she can’t get her number from the Social Security office) is the same thing undocumented immigrants do: go to the IRS and get a Taxpayer Identification Number. She’ll still need to show proof of citizenship and identity to work legally, but a TIN will open up some opportunities.
Who is Shirley?
(I chose not to resist this temptation; and I won’t apoligize for my choice … at least not until somebody makes clear to me why I should….)
Ah no.
John.
No.
Please.
No.
I’m hoping that John heard some warped version of events from Carol, rather than what actually happened :/
The fact that he had to ask how she hurt her hand says to me he hasn’t heard the full story yet.
Good point. If he was told “argument” instead of “kidnapping,” then a punch to the face would seem off.
Really the only other scenario in which he stays a truly likable person is if he just abhors violence and has stared down death from gunshot and survived by faith and he wishes his sister had done the same.
Maybe in India he converted to a faith that requires total pacifism?
“I don’t know, I just think… starting with a curb stomp might’ve been more appropriate?”
“Joyce, never hit someone with your hand. Use a bat.”
Or a Sherwood Goalie stick. They work just as well as our good friends Louisville and Slugger.
It’s a matter of targeting.
Hit the soft parts with your hand, but hit the hard parts with a blunt instrument.
“Oh! My roommate says the same thing!”
Like.
Maybe he’s like the old aristocracy: “Only beasts-of-the-field strike with their bare paws, dear. Use an implement, or don’t bother.”
Not looking good for John (the character, not the commenter), what with his word Extreme being the title of today’s strip.
He probably can’t help it, being born in the 90s.
Wasn’t it established that he’s about 14 or 15 years older than Joyce? That would put him in his early thirties, so around 1983 to ’85?
True, but remember, this strip lives in “comics” time, meaning that it’s always “now”. In other words, in about 10 years, Dean’s comment will be spot on!
Are people really THAT bad? I mean seriously.. I’ve know people with enough homophobia, sexism and religious ferver to be right there with Toe Dad up until the point the gun came out. Granted.. this situation has never been tested among people that I know but I really can’t imagine any of them hanging in there with Toe Dad once the gun came out.
Am I being naive?
Yes. Very much so.
Admittedly earlier time, but a number of people from my home community did fundraisers in support of clinic shooters legal defense funds and a number did fundraisers for an ex-lesbian who kidnapped her kid and ran out of country so it “wouldn’t be exposed to the deviant lesbian lifestyle”, because the “poor mom” could lose her kid to the evil courts unless everyone helps out.
Supporting a gunman just trying to get their daughter “some help” with physical force is not at all out of my experiences of what a fundie community would support.
Yeah. There’s a reason ex-gay facilities, like the kind of place Toedad was going to take Becky to and have her locked away forever, to be abused & tortured until she swore she was straight, still exist. Parents have to be willing to sign away their children to what is literally a facility that brainwashes and re-educates through physical and mental torture in order to ensure religious compliance. If parents and communities weren’t willing to support these abominable fucking practices, the places wouldn’t exist. If communities didn’t encourage, support, and fund the preachers who create clinic shooters, and then pay their legal costs and send constant care packages to them in prison, etc, those people wouldn’t exist.
This stuff comes from a deep, massive groundswell of hatred and intolerance and a throbbing feeling that the modern world has turned against them, become a hostile place that they can’t understand, and the only way to stay ‘pure’ (because purity is SUPER important) is to retreat from it or change it by force. It’s out there, and it’s scary as shit.
Cerberus and I have both fucking seen it. :/ Lived it, even.
Oh shoot, missed final question. That answer was to your first question, not the last.
John confirmed for not cool.
And he was doing well up until now.
No points this round, John.
Dude, he didn’t even finish his sentence.
Finished his first one. Which was telling Joyce that her reaction of punching someone in the face to having a gun pointed at her and her best friend was and I quote “a pretty extreme reaction.”
Yeah, after that you’re next diplomacy check is at -20. Subsequent sentence had better be a recipe for diet chocolate that tastes better than the real thing, or you’re screwed.
Possible follow-up: “Gah, sorry, misspoke. I meant risky, not extreme. I mean, seriously, even if the gun was pointed away from you, the punch might’ve made him flinch and accidentally pull the trigger. Someone could’ve been shot.”
Except we see his follow-up and it was to start arguing with her about her defense of her actions. So it definitely looks bad at the least and from my own life experiences, he’s setting off my “clueless idiot starts mansplaining about shit he’s completely out of his depth and awareness on” alarms.
Might be unfounded, but I think Jocelyne was wise to derail the conversation where she did.
Yeah, I know — just saying in terms of an alternative to the chocolate option for follow-up.
Yes this.
I suspect it also has to do with the gender dynamics at play. There is no way this wouldn’t have been framed as “Joyce’s-dudely-alter-ego heroically stopped a gunman with a single punch!” if she was a guy.
But she’s a woman, so instead it’s an “extreme reaction.”
(Completely 100% in-line with what I experienced growing up by the way – doesn’t matter what was done to provoke me, up to and including breaking my bones, any violence on my part was an unacceptable over-reaction, full stop. Meanwhile dudes were lauded for actual violent over-reactions because “A man needs to know how to stand up for himself.”)
Jocelyne’s derail also looks very deliberate. She knows where it’s going and is trying to deflect. I’ll bet she either knows John well enough to know he’s not going to be supportive or heard enough on the drive over to know.
While I suppose it might be typical of this comic, you also might consider how Joyce’s mother phrases things, and that John might be entirely unaware of the entire shotgun business. Though, the word ‘mansplaining’ is cringe-invokingly asinine. I feel like we have to wait to see what he actually knows about the situation before casting judgement.
ClaudeWicked: Well, Jocelyne cleverly deflected him so we can’t know whether ‘mansplaining’ would have been appropriate or not. Yet.
ischemgeek-
I firmly believe this too. What would be lauded as heroic when one gender does it tends to be seen as stupid or “extreme” for another gender. And yeah, we’re probably going to see, when they get to Church, a lot more of the “Toedad was so full of passion, standing up for his family” while minimizing or even demonizing the heroism Joyce and Becky displayed.
Claude-
It’s a very useful term for explaining a very common phenomenon:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/12/the-problem-with-privilege-explaining/
It’s also deliberately derogatory and increasingly inaccurate as we apply it in other situations. There’s nothing about men that limits it to them.
What if, when you got something wrong about sexuality, I called it “acesplaining”? Would you not feel it was an attack on ace people?
I mean, in a way, not being sexual is a privilege. You can think about things more clearly than most. So it fits all the requirements. But it is also is insulting.
It’s a word that gives men’s rights activists a reason to actually think that men are treated poorly, as such a term is only allowed because it’s directed towards men.
It’s a legitimate concept. But it’s a horrible word.
trlkly: Sure, it’s inaccurate if you apply it to situations where it doesn’t apply. You can claim being ace is a privilege, but it isn’t. Not in the way privilege is used in this context. It’s the exact opposite. Society is set up and structured for sexual people. That’s the assumption. That’s where the power lies. And thus the privilege.
And that’s where the foosplaining concept comes in, it’s explicitly about someone with power and privilege in a particular context telling those without it why they’re wrong about their own situation.
As for the MRA? Fuck ’em. They don’t need an excuse to think men are treated poorly, they’re perfectly happy making them up.
I stand by my previous statements regarding differences of power between dominant and marginalized groups and how that affects things.
Bigotry and oppression stem from prejudice and power. Mansplaining is a thing and an annoying thing, because it is frequently used to silence or question the qualifications of those of a marginalized class owing to the perceived social value of an ignorant comment by a dominant group. See this comic on how individual’s qualifications, expertise, and opinions are considered less and not as equal and how this leads to patronizing explanations to individuals who understand a subject much more thoroughly than they are given credit for:
http://www.robot-hugs.com/technigal/
This also leads in practice to individuals to regularly feel qualified to talk over those who have personal experiences on a subject and explain how they should actually feel on a subject. This also leads to social, workplace, and legislative consequences (there’s a reason that only marginalized group healthcare is ever subject to politicization and limitation despite being considered medically ethical and approved and why women’s voices are frequently discounted in legislative discussions about sexual assault, online harassment and violence, and intimate partner violence).
“Acesplaining” is evocative, because it’s not a thing. And it wouldn’t be a thing because asexuals simply are not a dominant group compared to allosexuals and so even if they were to give wholly ignorant points on the merit of sexual attraction, it would carry no legislative, social, or employment weight and in fact the asexual person would be quickly dismissed and ignored as “ignorant” and would not grow up in a culture where they presumed their input on sexual matters was something that was always important and worthy.
On a tangent, this would very much be my fate if I was to spout off inaccurate shit about sexuality stuff, whether you called it acesplaining or not. And furthermore, I would find few allies on my side if I was being ignorant and belligerent in such a manner. If I was to be accused of “acesplaining” by someone, I’d be mostly baffled as a) that’s not a thing, b) I would assume initially it was some bizarre reverse racism style joke, c) it’s just kind of weird.
In fact, given that asexuals are the marginalized group in that affair, they are far more likely to be talked over and ignored even when discussing their own life experiences. I have long lost track of the amount of times where I have been presumed to be ignorant or deluded of my own experiences and attractions and that I am an unreliable narrator of my own life owing to people presuming that they as allosexuals must understand asexuality better than I do. And I mean that down to allosexual people yelling at me that I clearly do not understand asexuality because I do not fit into their stereotypical and frequently inaccurate ideas of what an asexual must be. Which would frankly add another layer of WTF to the whole thing.
As far as being asexual being a privilege… um, no. When my fellow aces stop being correctively raped and coerced into unwanted sex to “prove their love” to romantic partners at a rate far above those of their sexual peers. When we stop being presumed to be liars who don’t even understand our own selves. When our romantic and sexual lives are considered fair game to be dissected. When our partners do not treat our affection as fictitious or incomplete. And when we are no longer presumed to be “broken” and lying, maybe it would be less laughable to consider we are privileged over allosexuals.
But when prominent sexologists literally say we are doing violence upon our romantic partners by dating them and that we are monsters simply for existing, one cannot easily make the argument that we are in any way enjoying an easier time than allosexuals.
Believe me that my life would be much easier for me if I was simply a lesbian rather than a homoromantic asexual.
thejeff-
Seriously, MRAs suck. There is literally nothing they don’t spin as proof that all women are evil and hate men, so censoring ourselves for their behalf works about as well as gay people censoring themselves so homophobes will stop hating them.
@trlkly,
I think the parallel you’re looking for is “straightsplaining.”
(It’s also a fairly common anti-ace tactic to suggest that “asexuals have more time and are more logical, since they don’t have to worry about sex!” It may seem benevolent, but it’s very much not.)
Holding out for something like that myself. Joyce punching anything seems extreme, at least the Joyce that he knew before she went to college.
So Joyce should have brought Ethan or Mike along, so one of them could punch Toedad, that would have been OK with John?
Gah, reply level fail. Should have been one level deeper with replying to Cerberus @ April 1, 2016 at 12:51 am.
He probably doesn’t know the whole story or even the actual truth of what happened. Which is turning this meeting into a mess.
To be fair he might have not heard the actual story. Let’s give him a benefit of doubt for now.
Everyone who is calling to give John the benefit of the doubt because maybe he doesn’t quite know what happened, doesn’t that mean John should ask what happened? He’s got two people right there with first-person accounts.
Yes, and he still may. It’s not necessarily as black and white as you put it.
I really do hope that Willis covers the range of reactions this will have, and not just horrible vs great.
Well, we’ve already had Hank, Carol and Jocelyne, all with very different reactions. It’s not clear yet exactly how bad John’s going to be, but signs point to it not being pretty. It’s not even clear where Hank will come down in the end when this inevitably escalates into an actual fight.
Give him time. Perhaps he doesn’t know what happened. Or perhaps he’s a d-bag. We’ll see.
I think he doesn’t know the whole story. If he knew, he wouldn’t have asked, and he (probably) would have call her as soon as he found out (or, at least that’s what my siblings will do).
I think even without knowing the whole story, the best response would be to express concern that your baby sister was in a fistfight with a fully grown man – or at least wanting to know WHY before chiding her for acting out of character.
But not making the best response doesn’t necessarily make him evil. It could, but we’re not there yet.
He probably got an incomplete, warped version of the story from Carol. (Probably from the “I would die for you” conversation, so whatever Joyce didn’t omit was filtered through an emotional, sympathetic-with-the-antagonist lens before it made it to anyone else.)
If he could just listen to the actual story, maybe he’d come around.
We don’t know how much he knows. Has he seen it in the news? Or did he just hear what happened from his Parents? Perhaps he doesn’t know they had a gun or somehow didn’t connect the gun and Joyce’s actions. I just find it hard to believe someone understanding the full situation would react like that.
Still? People still find it hard to believe?
I suppose that’s good in a way. In the sense that it is good that some people haven’t had to confront this kind of bigotry before.
It’s basically how Carol reacted. How strange is that a son reacts similarly to one of his parents?
It’s still possible it’s all a misunderstanding. It’s possible Willis has decided to crank up the feels and then defuse it all with a wacky misunderstanding as a counterpoint to Carol’s actual prejudice. And then we can have a nice conflict between Carol and the rest of the united Brown family.
[Shakes Magic 8-Ball] Signs point to No.
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
This sequence needed conflict. Otherwise it would have been removed or at least downplayed. John is the obvious character to provide that, since Jocelyne’s clearly a supporter. Narratively, he pretty much has to be the bad guy here.
He did say he just got back from his honeymoon, so it seems like any US news he would have gotten would have been via mom, which I’m sure was a very twisted version of the story about how Becky was ungrateful and Toedad had a “disagreement” with Joyce and it’s all terrible and Becky’s fault.
Well diverted, Jocelyn! Save Big Bro from making an ass of himself.
“Incoming PTC! Hard to port!
PTC?
per alt text, “Possible Tactless Comment”
John. No. Bad. Don’t make me break out the newspaper.
You would think the Browns family would probably be used to awkward conversations by now
Yeah talk about how crazy the weather is, it feels like it’s been autumn for five and a half years.
It’s part of the UI plan to stop climate change. Five years of Autumn in Indiana will lower planetary temperatures by how much? 🙂
^ This. I like this. It made me laugh. Because the greatest enemy of all humanity is, after all, climate change. Right? Right? ….*crickets* What? I thought I was right! The gubmint tells me so!
It’s certainly going to kill more people than terrorism.
Climate Change? Terrorism?
These are not orthogonal to each other!
That *crickets* quiet is the soundtrack of human extinction. Crickets will survive the apocalypse!
Wow, Joyce’s sister really wants to help Becky. I smell shenanigans!
If not hijinks.
Dare we say it…tomfoolery?
Maybe even a caper.
Ranygazoo!
Perhaps even skylarking, though that might be going too far.
Either way, I don’t think things are gonna go exactly as planned! 😉
Skylarking, ha ha, wow, that’s a pretty extreme reaction…
I think it was a proportionate synonym.
What about roguery?
NEVER in mixed company! 😉
Joyces transgender sister? I don’t think she has a straight sister?
Jocelyne is, apparently, straight.
Not sure what that would mean to a potential romantic partner.
Same thing as dating any other straight woman. She’s a woman who likes dudes. Only difference is she’s way more likely to be murdered by the dudes she dates than most other women.
Being trans and being sexually/romantically attracted to people are two different things.
Jocelyne is prolly straight, according to word of Willis.
so straight as in she likes men?
Yup!
I’m going with shenanigans topped with tomfoolery and then completely apexed by BAMBOOZLING
And maybe a little bird-dogging? 😉
I just smell chicken fingers. With “stuff” on them. 🙂
What would a proportionate reaction look like to him? A strongly worded letter??
Aiming a gun at him.
I wonder if the Browns are into guns at all. Would John have gone a rant about gun free zones and victim disarmament if Ross was the dad of someone he’d never met?
So….are you in favor of gun free zones? I can’t really tell by your comment. I mean no offense, I’m just curious. Because Ross would have been easily stopped had IU not been a gun free zone. Sidenote: Not all of us gun owners want to make the old west be reborn and carry them everywhere. Most of us are the silent majority. We just want to have the right to carry them and you’ll never see them if it’s up to us.
Seeing as how the only immediate reaction from a non-main character was ‘Thank god that’s over’ to Becky’s kidnapping, I somehow doubt that they would have started a running gun battle on the campus.
Congratulations, though. You have succeeded in suggesting a method far more unrealistic and dangerous for rescuing Becky than Amazi-Girl’s shenanigans!
. . . I didn’t even know that was possible. Impressive.
Well, it’s brought up after every mass shooting incident. It came up in comments a couple times during Ross’s happy fun gun times, IIRC.
The problem with that idea, that gun owners will stop a gun crime, is that it relies on the gun owner not falling under Bystander Syndrome. Or the gun owner thinking “hey someone’s probably called the cops, if I shoot this guy and they find me with a gun, I’ll be the one to get in trouble.”
In the end, having a gun of your own during a crime only increases your chances of stopping it… If you decide to stop. It may actually lessen your chance of deciding to stop it.
Harvey-
I remember a number of stories from armed folks who’ve actually been in shootings who’ve quickly realized that things are way too chaotic to risk anything and that an actual shooting is nothing like one’s hollywood movie fantasies. Most notably would be the Giffords shooting, where a number of folks were armed, but did nothing because of the chaos and the actual person to stop the gunman was a gay aide who bravely tackled the gunman.
But I get the fantasy. We all want to pretend that some inane thing we do makes us immune to the fear of threats. That some potent talisman or behavior change will make us “safe” from things that scare us. And if you’re privileged enough to rarely face violence or its threats, it can even seem like it’s working.
But in reality, when one is actually threatened with violence regularly, one is better off investing in a pair of running shoes and a firm hope that your trauma response is flight.
In fact, in the Giffords shooting, Joe Zamudio, one of concealed carriers in question, arrived on the scene ready to intervene, but the shooter was already disarmed. Zamudio was ready to shoot the man who’d taken the gun, but grabbed him instead.
That came very close to being even worse. He described it as just reacting and being lucky to right the thing.
My apologies to Mr. Willis for bringing up anything that hints at gun control. I should have known better. Hopefully this won’t blow up too much.
As for gun free zones every campus in Canada is a gun free zone. Yet school shootings are extremely rare, despite there being lots of guns in Canada.
Maybe we’ve got him wrong and to him a proportional response would have been ripping out Ross’s spinal cord and throttling him with it.
…Is it weird that I think that would make John more reasonable than the alternative interpretation?
Nope.
Sub-Zero wins. Fatality.
A handshake
Probably? Smiling nicely at Toedad as she visited Becky at Curing Teh Gay camp.
fume
“See, Joyce, she’s getting better. And here you were going to recruit an ‘ethnic’ type to help you hunt him down and punch him in the face.”
Extreme? No no no no no, John’s supposed to be good brother! When a man kidnaps your best friend and brandishes a gun at your school, he got off easy if he only got your fist in his face.
I seem to remember a lot of kicks to the midsection after the punch. It would have been more “proportional” if she hadn’t been pulled away.
Brothers are supposed to be concerned for their little sister’s poor hands; crowbar to the face would’ve been more proportional.
Never underestimate the power of the Freeman Maneuver.
John, he also threatened your baby sister. For fuck’s sake.
Everyone in Joyce’s family keeps making excuses for Ross, it’s pretty disgusting, isn’t it?
Not Hank.
Or Joc. We’re at 2/4, with the Jordan constituency not reporting, yet.
Given the way Carol responded to Hank’s comment about “the Jordan situation”, I’m assuming Jordan’s an okay guy.
That linked comic also has Hank saying, “John went to public school and he’s fine.”
Remember, that probably means fine as in ‘adheres to family belief system’, though. Unless you were bringing that up to make this point, in which case I apologise for the misunderstanding.
I so want to know what the deal with Jordan is. Prison? Gay? Converted to UU? Give me all the black sheep of the Brown family deets.
Gay UU prisoner of conscience.
I’m still holding out hope that John only has a garbled account of what happened he got from his mother, and will default to rage when he learns the details. Mostly because I want the Brown sister to have as many decent family members as possible. If John knows all the details, I guess that’s the end of my hope for him. If someone did that to my kid sister, I would not be sitting in a burger place talking about it calmly, and I’d run a serious risk of ending up in prison.
Saaaaame
Sadly that’s the reality of the culture Becky and Joyce grew up in and a major aspect of why they are the way they are. The world both of them came to age in is one that does not view Toedad as a villain, but as a brave man who took on Satan and risked his life to try and save his daughter.
Some will go full in support like Carol, most others will lend a half-support where his crimes are diminished (like possibly John here), and few will outright condemn, instead at best praising his heart and his intentions if not his methodology.
It’s like the outpouring of disingenuousness from “pro-life groups” whenever one of their ranks shoots up a clinic. “Oh, this is a tragedy, but really, he’s kind of a hero and how dare people politicize this and the victim deserved it and…”
Ross stood up for his convictions. Then promptly got punched by Joyce for those being wrong.
Then proportionately got punched by Joyce for those being wrong.
*left-handed high-five for Joyce*
So how’s this then?
Ross stood up for his convictions. Then promptly got proportionately punched by a pugilist Joyce for possessing preposterous and perverse thought processes.
Positively prodigious!
Pravo!
Thank you.
I’m still sad she didn’t get a chance to curb stomp him. Reshape that toe head a bit.
Free plastic surgery! He should be paying her!
Perhaps satisfying to us, but Becky stopped her. Becky didn’t want him hurt more. One of her big concerns through the whole thing was not getting him blown away by cops.
As the one he was kidnapping, I think her opinion counts more.
Yeah, that’s what really hammers home the family’s betrayal for me.
A friend of the family has just THREATENED HIS BABY SISTER WITH A GUN. The way I expect the story to go is John screaming bloody murder and demand ToeDad’s head on a pike outside the church as a warning example, I expect people to have to hold him back and explain that there is a pile of cop taking care of the situation and that he doesn’t have to punch him in the face personally… but instead what we get is the family forcing Joyce to justify herself again and again, with vague apologies for “the poor man”
I don’t even ask them to accept Becky’s right to exist, all I ask is for them to prioritize their own lovely little sister over a Toeshaped turd with a gun. I would be happy with a “Becky could have handled the situation better, but that fucker is GOING DOWN”
…and then I learn phrases like “victim blaming” and then I get sad 🙁
Its interesting, we always blame the victims of a crime a little bit. Leave your door unlocked and get robbed? I guarantee the cops aren’t going to be pointing the finger outside alone. They’ll criticize (probably fairly) that the world works in shitty ways and you need to lock your doors. Now that’s a mild example and reems of separation away from “crazed asshat aims gun at 2 college girls”, but the logic always has and always kindof will exist. And its fair until you start breaking average expectations. Its pretty common for unlocked things to get trifled with, so locking things just makes sense and should be expected. Contrarily I can’t see a whole lot of fair expectations for things like this. Part of Joyce’s family could if they’re acting this way but, frankly, I can’t think its a fair expectation to be shot at for banging classifications.
We blame victims, because we believe that if they did something “stupid” or “deserved it”, we will remain safe of whatever affected them or we do not need to be engaged in a rights struggle surrounding bigotry or oppression. Because it’s just a stupid idiot who got what they deserved (for not being smart like me).
If things seem especially big and insurmountable, the logic gets even more twisted up, less there is a hated minority to blame for being super evil and sneaky instead.
What was the bit in Willis’s post about his mom that talked about painfully realizing that his humanity would always be subsumed to his mom’s ideology and worldview?
And it’s something I’ve seen with a lot of my ex-fundie friends. With their families, all that matters is that they return back to the fold. Not what is happening to them, not that awfulness is hitting them, it’s all secondary to its usefulness in “avoiding hell” and “returning to God’s path”.
As such, even the threat of death becomes meaningless in the face of the “necessity” of saving her soul. And it really does prove that Toedad is merely the extreme face of an ideology that is ubiquitous in their culture.
And sadly, that is not something unique to this particular toxic subculture. My family was very fond of twisting every negative consequence of social discrimination and abuse into a narrative of how “unhealthy” my “delusions” were and how important it was that I reject this “fake notion” of who I was and come get fixed.
Ideology trumping humanity. Doesn’t matter what horrors you’ve survived, there’s a “soul” to be “saved”.
“Ideology trumping humanity. ”
…but, but, but… family…
*sad*
*hug*
Yeah, I wish I could have had the life experiences where the term “family” didn’t feel like ash on my tongue.
Wow, OK, now I feel like Ruth*. The fact that I think that family SHOULD trumph ideology means that I’m incredibly lucky, not that I need hugs.
Much appreciated, though. *hugs*
*) Not the murdering, I mean**
**)Or the hotz for Billie***
***)That might be a lie. Go leafs.
And this is why we like Joyce. Despite her toxic upbringing and all the horrible ideas she’s been indoctrinated with, every time ideology comes into conflict with humanity, she picks humanity. Doesn’t even have to be family, just people.
Not without some awful misteps. Not without a lot of angst.
Joyce is good people.
In the end of the day, this is not even about Becky any longer. Joyce WILL defend Becky to the end, but the stakes are higher now.
Joyce Is Good People. She thought the church had taught her how to be that. She has now learnt that the church and her own family lied to her. She has chosen between doctrine and To Be A Good Person, and she has chosen the latter. THAT’S what this conflict is about. (Oh, and that as-God-is-her-whitness no one will ever hurt Becky again)
“All right then, I’ll go to hell”
Yup, it’s the full Huck Finn!
i keep finding Mark Twain’s philosophy of Americans more and more relatable and it burns.
Our hero must fight against bigotry that has been instilled in them since childhood in order to save their best friend.
…SHIT!
Not to mention defying the hero’s idea of religion and what God wants, putting the hero at odds with their family and home community as they fully support their best friend.
I’ll I’m saying is that if they both end up on a raft at some point, it won’t be out of place.
Damn now I am picturing a sword wielding Joyce standing on a pile of enemies with Becky draped around her leg Frazetta-style.
Becky probably pictures that too.
Now I really want someone to draw this
God, I can just see Becky’s grin in that picture.
“Hey, John, you remember mr MacIntyre?”
“…vaguely. Looks like a toe, likes his own voice a bit too much”
“And you remember Joyce?”
“Of course! My lovely little ray-of-sunshine baby sister who is rather childish and too good for this sinful earth”
“Well, he just pointed a gun at Joyce”
“Oh, OK, well let me hear his reasons.”
“X”
a) “Ah, I see. Well, that seems reasonable. God bless his soul.”
b) “GET ME MY PUNCHING HAT!!!”
I just don’t see what “X” could be in John’s world view to give answer A. rather than B.
(Well, OK, I DO know since the answer is X=GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, but I don’t like it.)
I see your parenthetical point, but one must keep in mind that Becky’s lesbiosity does deduct at least 12 humanity points and necessitate her being placed on the back-burner in favor of pathway c) “Everyone but me is being so unreasonable due to their tiny girl brains”.
“Girls, ‘mIright, Josh?… um… that’s a very murderous glare you have there, Josh…”
“And your eye keeps twitching the more I call you Josh and… oh god, my femurs! No, I need those to live!”
Hee hee hee this exchange is very satisfying.
See, the problem with that is that the appropriate point for option B is between “Well, he just pointed a gun at Joyce” and “Oh, OK, well let me hear his reasons.”
Except if I heard someone had pointed a gun at my sister, I’d already be giving him a permanent injury before a reason could be given. There fucking is no reason.
Your sister was pointing one at him? Your sister had just shot his family? He was a cop, arresting her in the course of a robbery?
There are reasons. If unlikely ones.
Now, if I’m on the scene and it’s not immediately obvious, then definitely jump to her defense. Duh.
If I hear about it later, especially when the person is already injured and in custody, I’m going to be far more interested in making sure she’s ok and finding out what happened, which would include why, than in driving a few hours to try to break into the hospital and get by the police guards to permanently injure him.
Sorry, the machismo gets to me. You don’t need to main him. The girls handled it. She handled it. It’s over. Getting revenge on the guy who threatened her isn’t your job.
I completely agree that that sort of machismo respons would not be a good idea (that’s why I framed it silly like I did with a “punching hat”). That’s one of the reasons why we have things like judges and cops and jails, to stop concerned family members from finding their own revenge.
But I still expect it to be the way an overreaction tips over. I expect the fallout to be in the direction of stopping family members from doing things like that rather than stoping them from minimising the crime, blaming the victim and bemoaning the fate of the poor man with the gun. Stupid and misguided as it would be, it would tell Joyce and Becky that John was on their side, not ToeDad’s.
(or he could be even more awesome and say the same thing without machismo, like Hank “of course Becky, always” or Jocelyne “high five”, but I’m scraping for the lowest acceptable answer here).
Yeah. Machismo aside, while it would be possible for their to be good reasons for someone threatening a sister, I would still expect the first reaction to be support of one kind or another. At least the “I’m so glad you’re OK” variety – which should probably extend to Becky, though that’s a bit more forgivable in John’s case, since he likely doesn’t know her that well.
Unlike Hank, who barely passed that test. Or Jocelyne who cleared the bar without even looking down.
What will Walky do when he finally finds that girl who stabbed his sister?
Okay, first of all, I was assuming in this situation, as in the one John and Joyce are arguing over, that there /is/ no good reason. The likelihood of my sister /earning/ a gun in her face is so small that no, it doesn’t really enter the mind when I’m angrily making a statement.
And if you think I’d literally go out of my way, risking consequences on petty revenge to hurt someone else because of a situation that’s already ended, you misread my comment. I was angry. That was the point of my comment, that the response to your sibling being threatened should be more “I’ll fucking cut whoever did it” and not “well honey it was probably your fault,” even if you don’t literally mean to harm anyone.
I’m an overprotective older sister. I’d be losing my shit if something happened to my siblings, and I’d be angry enough to hurt someone probably even if it was my sibling’s own fault. So excuse me for exaggerating and being somewhat irrational in a hypothetical fucking response.
No, I would not literally hurt someone, except maybe in the heat of the moment. I don’t know why you chose to read my angry, impassioned statement as ‘I would literally break into the hospital and beat up a confined man’. And I don’t really appreciate you guys responding as if that was what I meant.
Ah, but remember that her best friend might be a lesbian – doesn’t that completely change the situation?
No?
Ah, never mind then, clearly an extreme reaction! Case closed!
Jocelyn probably CAN help you find it in your house though!
One hopes.
And HUH, John. Huh. Hackles raised back up.
Remember, he’s a fundamentalist Christian who chose to be a missionary. He’s probably not going to be the nicest guy.
Yeah, and I’ve got a bad feeling about meeting the youth pastor too.
I’m going with “well-meaning but utterly terrifying” for that one. Y’know, like Hymmel the Humming Hymnal.
Yeah, I’ve got a bad feeling that the sermon on Sunday is going to be “specially” chosen as a response to the events surrounding Becky and might even end up being a direct passive-aggressive message to Becky and Joyce. Either way, I imagine that sermon will be just awful for both of them and I kinda hope that Becky skips out as I don’t think she’s ready for what she’ll face there.
That is absolutely my bet.
Even if there wasn’t the expectation of horribleness, I wouldn’t go if I were Becky. SO MANY not-really-acquaintances wanting to get a glimpse at the person who was on the news for weird scary stuff and confront for details (even if they were supportive).
It’s probably the healthier and happier idea to just straight up not go to the Sunday sermon, but I think she’ll go. I remember when church was still somewhere I considered safe and home, before I grew up enough to make “wrong” decisions that needed “correcting” (in my case by a few of the church female elders cornering me and bullying me for a few hours over my girlfriend)
I would agree. Becky is all in on “supporting Joyce” and so to skip out on church would violate that personal quest. However, I could definitely see Carol just flat-out refusing to take her to church owing to her “sinfulness”.
Even with that, I still wound up going back for a few months. It’s hard to realize that this “home” and “family” weren’t as permanent and supportive as they always said they were.
*hugs*
@Cerberus:
IME, the Carols want to take you to church if they feel you’re ‘straying’ or have fallen prey to Satan. Eeeven if you tell them you’re an atheist in so many words.
(Don’t tell fundies you’re an atheist trying to get out of church pressure. Just don’t. It will always backfire.)
See the preview panel that I am almost certain is at the Browns’ church next Sunday.
Am I completely mistaken, or is that a gleeful Carol Brown in the background? That does not bode well.
Becky has the right to request her birth certificate from her home states Dept. of Statistics (or whatever name it uses, diff. states diff. depts.) and with a certified copy she can then get her social security number.
Using her old college student card will get her a copy of her ssn at the nearest social security office.
No big deal.
Genuine question as I’m very unsure of the law here:
Can she request it without means of proving who she is?
Furthermore how much will that cost? I’m currently in the midst of going through the court process of legal name change and it’s expensive as fuck and friends going through other court stuff also say that most other processes are expensive. Something that costs a couple of hundred bucks to replace may be grossly beyond her ability to pay without a means to legally find work.
Never mind on this one, saw your posts below.
It being SSN or Birth Certificate? SSN was addressed below, but as far as getting a copy of her birth certificate…my state would require photo ID, but it looks like Indiana will let you Order copies and generally review the birth registry online ( http://www.in.gov/isdh/23575.htm ) so I guess it depends!
But, yeah. Getting a birth certificate or ss card changed is always way more involved than just getting a copy of a previously issued birth certificate or ss card.
Bootstrapping ID is hard. They want you to have ID to prove who you are so you can get ID to prove who you are. Catch-22.
The important thing is the birth certificate. With that, everything else follows. Her best chance is finding it in the house. Second best is if she still has her Anderson ID. That should work to get a birth certificate. (Technically, you have to be currently enrolled, but I bet they just check the date on the card and don’t check with the school to see if you’ve been kicked out.) Or obviously a driver’s license, if she has one.
Without that, she’s in trouble. At that point I think the next step is suing her father for documentation, but if he fights it, that’s a long and expensive process for someone with no resources.
Around 10 years ago my mom asked me to see if I could find a place on the Internet to get the birth certificate of a friend of hers. This was a woman born in North Carolina in the 1920s.
I was able to find the relevant office in NC online. I paid $25 to get it, plus $50 more to a private company to push the paperwork. It was mailed to her in a week.
I didn’t have to present any proof of anything but my credit card number. I don’t recall if she would have had to show ID and sign for the mail when she got it.
But my memory is that she was someone who had gotten into her 70s without ever having proper ID. She only needed it then so she could go on a trip to the Caribbean with some friends.
I feel Jocelyne’s “Sooooooo…” with every fiber of my being. It’s like every holiday family dinner I’ve ever been to is flashing before my eyes.
At our table it was always “Annnyway, …”, so I know what I know exactly what you mean.
“Perhaps I can be of assistance.”
At our house, its “How about them Packers?” Change to topic to something everyone has an opinion on but that we won’t kill each other over.
Booooo, John.
Booooooo
I remember playing trading card games with those cards back in grade school! Unfortunately, I once lost mine to a guy who had 657-23-9743 and now I can’t get married or a job.
Huh, I got one that was 657-53-0900. Musta been from the same area.
Depends on how long ago.
I HAD SUCH HOPES FOR YOU JOHN
So, oldest brother sucks and Jocelyn is great. Got it.
People are human not for the virtues they have, but those they lack.
You and any sense of appropriate response, for example.
what
Huh? Stephen R. Bierce was saying that John lacked virtue. We cool.
I was sort of quoting Robert Heinlein’s story “Jerry Was A Man”. Thing is, back when Shortpacked! was a regular strip, readers were complaining about Malaya’s apparent absense of redeeming characteristics, and I came upon the notion that there is NO OBLIGATION for fictional characters to have ANY virtues. It’s fiction.
I wonder though, does he even know all the details? Maybe he doesn’t know about the part with the gun.
I dunno, man, it was all over the news, plus Joyce told Carol and it’s not the kind of detail you leave out. John gets no slack from me.
In particular, Jocelyn derails the stupid John-altercation about to happen, asks the smart practical first questions, and offers the immediate meaningful help she can provide. (Especially being a character reference; Jocelyn could well be the only adult in their old community who will vouch for Becky.)
Yeah, I expected him to be somewhere in the lands between Carol and Jocelyne, prolly somewhere around Hank, but it’s looking like he may be somewhere between Carol and Hank.
Either way, alarm bells are definitely going off though hopefully he’ll be closer to Hank than Carol.
Wow, John, that….I…
REALLY?!
a punch is an extreme reaction to a rifle
yeah
“Extreme reaction”
Nope. I’m pretty sure anyone would beat the crap out of someone who chased their friend with a fricking rifle!
Damn it, John.
Is there any chance John doesn’t know the full details of the Ross vs. Amazi-girl battle, including that Mr. Jailbird pointed a loaded rifle at Joyce?
Probably, but unlikely. Even Joyce’s parents were kinda defending Toedad.
Hank didn’t defend Toedad. He expressed jealousy or pride or whatever toward Joyce.
Yeah, Hank was all… not to condone violence, but hell yeah, my daughter!
Didn’t Hank pretty much hate Ross and only put up with him ’cause Joyce and Becky were friends?
That has been some people’s interpretation of events.
That seems to be the natural conclusion to be drawn from his statement in panel 5 here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/sprained/
I’m more of thinking where she called Ross an asshole and he agreed with her, but yeah.
For him not to know pretty much requires him to be running around with a bag over his head, paying no attention to radio or TV news.
Admittedly, this depends on him being in the country when it was on the news. Do we know when he got back from India?
Yeah, their parents were totally “OH MY GOD, HE HAD A GUN . . . But I’d die for you . . .” They seemed totally informed on what happened. Honestly, it was probably the main news story and conversation topic in town.
Yeah, which is why I have a hard time giving John an out for his statement.
Welp.
*curls up all the John hopes into a ball and tosses it into a bin
Seconded.
I do wonder if John got his information on what happened from Carol, which would be fairly inaccurate.
John: So, mom, what happened to Becky and Joyce.
Carol: Becky’s loving father came and tried to do his best to help her, but was sent to prison for his love!
Yeah, that is a very good point. Although, if they’ve been covering it on the news and stuff, he should have at least known that there was a gun involved, so maybe he’s still in the wrong here. Damn it John, I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, don’t be a dick!
Considering that John’s wasn’t even aware that his little sister got hurt, he may not have heard anything about the incident. I’m not sure how much he communicates with his parents. Do we ever know how long John has been back from India?
*Considering that John wasn’t even aware that his little sister got hurt, he may not have heard anything about the incident. I’m not sure how much he communicates with his parents. Do we even know how long John has been back from India? (Got to start rereading these before I hit post.)
It took me two reads to find out what you mistyped.
Took me three.
1 mistake I’ll let go unfixed … most of the time. But 2 makes me curse at my fingers and question my sanity.
Joceyln and Becky are wearing the same clothes! Besties forever!
Y’know, David does go to the effort of drawing different collars, cuffs and a pocket on Becky’s.
Most of Becky’s are probably actually Joyce’s, so…
It was a little extreme, after all everyone knows you defeat a giant toe with an equally large pair of clippers not a punch.
Or a giant Lego.
In Johns defense, I’m guessing the only version of the story he’s heard is from his parents. He probably has no clue how bad it really was
Sounds like Mom gave John his marching orders before he left for lunch. Wait until the new Joyce reveals herself, he may be back in India before he recovers.
I’ll wager that John got his info from Carol
I’ve got a feeling that momma brown didn’t let John in on all the details of the event. At least that’s what I’m hoping
So it looks like John’s probably heard only the Mom-version of things.
Kudos to the younger sibling for diverting there 🙂
Man, I’m starting to know how guys named “Ryan” must feel.
It’s ok, man. You’re cool.
I’m amused because my deadname is one of the douchebag character names.
Whereas your real name is of course “Cerberus”. Which is an interesting choice…
Because my mind automatically started wondering which name and started looking for similarities to “Cerberus” before I shut it down and told it it was being silly.
Heh. My actual real name is similarly uncommon though nowhere near my nym, so don’t need to worry about it being the name of an awful character any time soon.
Also that method might actually work. 😉
Ohh yes. Particularly as I liked that name enough to make it mine, as it were.
If you ask me, it wasn’t extreme enough.
Also, high five, Jocelyne. She truly is the best Brown family member. I just hope when Joyce inevitably learns about her she’ll be accepting of it, after all she’s learned, because WE NEED J-SISTER BONDING, STAT.
Best Brown, or best non-Joyce Brown?
co-best Brown
Pretty extreme reaction Joyce, it was just a fucking gun. He doesn’t seem to be as bad as Mom, but right now he’s looking to be second-worse.
Worst*
Emotional weaponry should have been restricted by the Geneva Conventions. Alas, every controlling parent is still allowed unlimited access.
“Really, Biggest Brother? How SHOULD I react when someone threatens me with a gun? Because the whole ‘be nice and talk it out’ thing didn’t work. Mr. McIntire started the extreme. Do you WANT your only sister to be a doormat?”
Joyce even tried being nice and talking it out! She had some bible verses she thought they’d all enjoy 🙁
Well, of course, a woman’s place is to defer to men, especially older men in the community. Really, she was being the rude one defying him in the first place. Especially when the poor man was just trying to set his family right. (/Carol)
I think this might be the first instance where I picked up on sarcasm in text without needing it pointed out.
plus everyone knows that the Good Christian Response to having a gun pointed at you is to turn the other cheek–so the gunperson has a better chance at a clean headshot. [/sarcasm]
And Jocelyne is silently cringing from both directions.
Does John know the circumstances behind Joyce punching out Ross? I feel like I’ve been the bad guy the last few weeks waiting on hard-and-fast evidence before damning John when most everyone else here is happy to immediately jump on his case. So again, does John know the exact circumstance under which Joyce punched Ross out?
For all we know John is an EXTREME pacifist and while he could find Ross to be utterly repugnant as a human being still find violence (physical, mental, or emotional) to be “extreme.”
I understand the need or desire to take Joyce’s (righteous) side. Joyce was in the right, please do not misunderstand me. I also understand the reaction of siding with the unjustly-suppressed minority. I still don’t think that warrants hostility being the first response to any warning sign.
I think Jocelyne understands the circumstances at least, given that she knows enough about Becky’s situation to know that she’s homeless and looking for work.
I imagine both got a severely edited version of events from “dear old mother”, but Jocelyne may have been the only one of the two to actually do further internet reading on the subject and thus get more of the story.
Admittedly, I mostly think that because I do the same when a news story hits really close to home (*cough cough* House Bill 2 *cough cough*) and so I can totally see Jocelyne frantically searching for as many details as possible about the “from her church” community member who kidnapped and nearly killed his gay kid and threatened Jocelyne’s sister’s life in the process.
Which might also be another part of why Jocelyne offered her secret high five and is going out of her way to show support and inclusion to Becky. Though this is all absolutely wild speculation here, so take it with a massive spoonful of salt.
I am prone to that, too – which is a big part of why I now purposefully avoid news stories with autistic kids in them. I need to for my mental health, because it was taking too much of a toll on me, reading about how yet another one of my people was killed this month and everyone and their goddamn dog wants to talk about how much of a difficult burden to bear they were for their murderer and treat it as a mercy killing rather than a fucking murder which is what it is because apparently being like me is a fate worse than death and renders you into the status of animal in need of putting down.
It’s hard on the head to be reminded of the fact that others see you as sub-human on the regular and to see hoards of autism parents come out in force to defend actual murderers and at best completely ignore their children, their victims. At worst, they paint the child in the worst light possible to try to make the case that the kid deserved it. For being a kid with a disability.
So I try to avoid the news about it. Selfish, I know – ever since I made the conscious decision to step back from that for a bit I’ve felt this sense of guilt for not getting in there all fire and brimstone to defend my humanity but it never seems to make a difference and there’s only so much I can take of being asked to put on the paaaarents shoes and see how difficult it is to take care of kids like me and understand the point of view that treats kids like me as deserving of death (when they never take my perspective, or that of any other autistic person, and consider what it feels like to be told that if your family killed you in childhood it would be “understandable” because of who you are, yet we’re the ones who are supposed to lack empathy).
Anyway, Cerberus, what I’m saying is I totally get the impulse to compulsively read all about yet another horrible thing done to one of yours. *hugs* if you want them?
Would you like an internet hug? I’ve got internet hugs if you want some.
*hugs* from one who knows exactly what it is like to read about your people being regularly murdered.
You don’t need my permission to take care of yourself, but in case it helps, it seems that you’re totally doing the right thing to take a looong break from listening to people saying harmful stupid incorrect stuff about autistic kids on media. If you want to go fire and brimstone, that’s great because your voice is uniquely important, so I hope you will preserve yourself and save that energy for when it’ll do the most good.
I don’t see any shame in doing what you need to to take care of yourself. *hugs*
Wow that’s just …
I cannot even …
*fellow autistic here to give you a high five*
I know that feeling all too well. I used to try to stand up for autistic issues but the mental toll just became too much.
I quit touching anything related to cures because between the “you’re being selfish for not wanting people to change everything about how your brain works” to ” I would hold down my autistic relative so someone can fix them” I just…couldn’t.
I don’t blame you. I quit touching on cures for much the same reason.
Never mind that ABA is literally the exact same stuff that was used in the Feminine Boy Project (no, really, Lovaas was also the head of that project, look it up), it’s okay to use on autistic kids. Cuz if you’re autistic, it’s not abuse, it’s therapy. :\
Even if Carol was the first to inform John of the incident, wouldn’t he automatically (a) call Joyce to comfort her/talk to her, or, at least (b) read everything he could find about her in the media?
That’s what a concerned brother would do. I just can’t imagine any positive scenario in which he would start lecturing Joyce about the way she saved herself and others from being shot.
Three options come to mind, ranging from most to least charitable: 1, John hadn’t actually heard about it yet for some reason. 2, Carol “forgot” to mention that Toedad threatened them with a gun. 3, John knows what went on and thinks that Joyce was stepping out of her place to defend Becky.
So I just had a crackpot theory. What if Jocelyne comes out, is evicted by her family, and decides to move in with Becky and they get together?
It’s a little fucked up with Becky’s crush on Joyce but man oh MAN.
Jocelyne said she isn’t gay. That probably, but not definitively, means she’s into guys.
Hmm. Jocelyne said that before she came out to Ethan. Maybe the jury’s still out on that? (Probably not, though, I guess.)
I mean… I did call it a crackpot theory for a reason, haha.
Joycelyne IS a guy. A transgender guy. So I’m not sure just what they are into, but if not gay, then likes girls?
Jocelyne is a woman. A transgender woman.
it’s why her name is jocelyne
TDOV is sure fun eh?
Insert trite statement on trans people needing to adopt hyper-visibility (and all the risks that entails) in order to be seen as who they are and avoid being misgendered.
I don’t know if you mean that as a criticism of the occasion or just of impractical and privileged mean people, but if it’s for the day I generally approach it as making trans existence visible, rather than individuals? But I do participate outside of places family would see, so I might be a bad source.
More sarcastically slightly bitter statement of acknowledgment of how tireless the act of trans visibility sometimes gets. Like, visibility, fun, wee.
Though that all being said, I really do appreciate all those who’ve gone before me who’ve taken the risk to be visible and outspoken and that empowers me to try and do the same where I can.
One of the main reasons why this Cis-male is working so hard on LGBTQ issues. Because I can take some heat without buckling. I mean hell, people already try to kill me just for riding a bicycle in the street, what’s an occasional pot shot for standing up for a really oppressed minority. Fortunately I haven’t had many of those.
*hugs* for dealing with asshole drivers who are dicks to bicyclists.
Jocelyn is a woman. Her family said “it’s a boy!!” when she was born but they were mistaken; they think that she’s a man, but she is a woman who hasn’t corrected them yet. A straight woman would like men, whether the woman in question is a transwoman or a ciswoman.
Some terminology in case you don’t know:
*If someone was assigned male at birth, but identifies as a woman/girl, she is a trans woman/girl. Note the feminine pronoun.
*If someone was assigned female at birth, but identifies as a man/boy, he is a trans man/boy. Note the masculine pronoun.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and identifies with that gender, they are a cisgender person.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and only identifies with that gender sometimes, they are likely genderfluid (people who may identify as men sometimes and women other times and somewhere in between still others). Pronouns used by genderfluid people sometimes vary by how they feel that day and can also include gender neutral pronouns like they and xie.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth, and does not identify with any gender, they are likely either agender or androgyne. Pronouns used by agender/androgyne people vary person to person but most commonly are gender-neutral pronouns like singular they and xie.
*If someone was assigned a gender at birth and they identify somewhere in between the extremes of the gender spectrum, they may be nonbinary. Nonbinary people, IME, tend to prefer gender-neutral pronouns like singular they and xie, as well.
*If someone was ambiguously assigned a gender at birth because their genetalia were ambiguous, or if they have any of a number of genetic conditions, that person is intersex. Pronouns used by intersex people depend on the person.
*If someone is not sure how they identify, they are gender-questioning. A questioning individual may or may not eventually settle on a gender identity, or may identify simultaneously with another gender identity (frex: I know someone who identifies as cis and questioning – their attitude is “Until I figure it out, let’s just default to cis”). Questioning people usually (but not always) use the pronouns associated with their assigned gender.
There are other, culture-specific gender identities (like two-spirit in most First Nations cultures) but that’s the rundown on terminology and pronoun usage of the stuff that comes up most often.
*Thumbs up*
I would just add that “nonbinary” doesn’t just mean “in-between gender spectrum extremes” but actually literally anything other than “man all the time” or “woman all the time” — and that includes being a gender other than man, woman, neutral, or none.
For instance, maverique folks have a gender (not a lack of gender), that’s not in-the-middle or even related to the man/woman binary, and isn’t neutral (some folks do id as gender-neutral or neutrois or other words). And me, I use ilyagender, from il-y-a which is French for “there exists” (roughly). Is my gender the same as a maverique person’s? Idk.
I think of my gender as brown, and a lot of maverique folks use yellow, and then orange is also rad, and some agender folks like black or maybe white or perhaps gray, and then there’s ultraviolet and *then* there’s all the things that aren’t colors. Gender is huge!
tl;dr setting up a WomanMan spectrum is, um, a common but very limiting model. /spectra-BUSTERS
Thanks for the clarification/added info on nonbinary. 🙂
How is that not definitive?
Possibility of being bisexual or asexual.
It’s also fucked up cause Becky HAS a girlfriend.
I suppose it is now obvious that I have Serious Concerns about Becky and Dina. Guess we’ll have to see how it plays out with Sarah and Dina.
It looked like she has her own apartment in a Patreon strip, I don’t think her family has (at least) that measure of control over her.
That strip also indicates that she lives at least an hour or two drive away from the family home.
Which I actually thought came up in the public strip, but checking, I don’t see it.
I don’t think I’m the only one who drew the conclusion from the Family Day conversations, though…
When Ethan says he is considering an English major, she says she can recommend the best and cheapest ramen, suggesting that she is living the starving artist bit. If she lived at home she would be eating Carol’s cooking, not ramen.
And she complains about the low pay of freelance writing in the next strip.
Not definitive, but suggestive.
Not all lesbians are accepting of transwomen. Given that Becky only recently refused to believe that it was possible for a person to be attracted to both men AND women, I would expect more LGBTQW faux pas from her in the future.
Quite likely. Though, given the outpouring of support Jocelyne has shown her and how quickly Becky was to change her tune after hearing from bisexual people… Well, I could see her tripping over herself to show her support to Jocelyne even if she has no fucking clue what that means and even though she might say something fucked up in her eagerness to support “whatever the hell that is”.
I agree. Luckily Jocelyn knows Becky and Becky’s aptitude for saying ridiculous stuff, I’m sure she’ll be chill about Becky’s initial faux pas and just happy to know somebody who really wants to be supportive. Same with Joyce. I can hardly wait.
:33333333
I’m willing to bet that Joss will be chill, but there will come to be a situation where a trans* friend or ally of hers will encounter something similar and will be very justifiably not chill, and this will create a big conflict in some % of Joyce and Joss’ peer groups.
We have seen this strip:
HA! DANG RIGHT!
Maybe an indication that she’s detected an ally.
Okay, so what’s the ‘W’ for?
I’m going to guess it stands for “whatever”, i.e. as a catch all et al for the other identities not included in those letters such as intersex or ace.
Bingo. I got tired of acronym sprawl.
I’m still wondering if they are going to talk to Joyce about Ethan? Jocelyne knows about their relationship, but not about the resolution of it.
Teenagers: Learn your social security number. Learn it now. Read and type/write it every day until you’ve memorized it. It’s too important to leave in the mercy of your parents’ availability or basic goodness in Becky’s case.
yes memorizing is good. But so is just getting your own birth certificate certified copy from state agency (Dept of Statistics or similar name). Then take that to your SS office and get your own SS card.
If you are in college, the student ID card probably req’d. your ssn. So get it from you college office. Or use the ID card at the SS office to get a new copy.
I’d go one further, and say that you should have physical custody of your own SSN/SIN/whatever acronym the equivalent card has in your country as soon as you’re confident in your ability not to lose it.
Likewise with birth certificate, passport and any other identifying documentation. If your parents question you on it, spin it as wanting to learn how to be responsible for such important documentation before you have to do it on your own.
Best big sis ♥ John’s odds of being decent took a hit, though. I wonder if Jocelyne heard John’s “I don’t know, I just think”on the way there.
For a second I thought Jocelyne was growing her hair out.
The average mindset of a Dumbing of Age fan:
Fans: This is a character that is fairly nice, I like him!
Character says a single thing that’s kinda crappy, showing that they are not perfect.
Fans: BURN THE WITCH!
Fans: This character hasn’t been overtly unpleasant! But he’s from a fundie family. Let’s give him a chance anyway.
Character: I think punching someone who was about to shoot you is an extreme reaction.
Fans: regret
Fans Addendum: Also, burn the witch, it’s getting a little nippy and we could use the warmth. 🙂
He turned me into a newt!
I got better. [/python]
Yup, that seems more representative of us 🙂
Note: I’m not neccesarily defending John, I’m mearly saying people have a history of being quick to judge.
It is worth noting though that I would do a lot of the same things people get made at the characters for, not the homophobia (fuck that) but I would do stuff like steal pizza from a LGBT support party, and Becky would fit in awesomely amongst me and my friends, who make jokes like she does on almost a daily basis.
People have a history of being quick to judge!? YOU NAZI!
Trust me, they would hate me. Lawful evil and Chaotic neutral don’t tend to mix very well…and yes I do see life as a giant Dungeons and Dragons game
I don’t blame you. Does make me wonder what I got for my character defect when I was created.
People also have a history of bending over backwards to excuse the bigots in the comic, until they go so far over the top it’s undeniable. At which point they become strawmen.
We’ve had several clues now for John, beyond the general “He’s a Brown, so we’re cautious.” He wanted to exclude Becky from lunch. He’s ignored Becky completely. Now this.
I think the general reaction has gone from “Cautious optimism” to “Oh no, please don’t.”
Everything so far is excusable. He could still turn it around. But it’s not looking good.
eh my post was really more about people attacking characters like Becky or Danny. Probably should have made that clearer.
Oh yeah, Becky, Danny, and most recently Carla are definitely the characters who get the most disproportionate shit for every “fuck up” whether real or imagined.
Does it count if I didn’t like them BEFORE either?
Dumbing of Triangle: DAY 16
http://imgur.com/84Q99NF
So he doesn’t know, eh?
Old strips still being ported: http://imgur.com/a/7FHYX
Wow… Panel 4 instantly transforms into Jocelyne hitting on Becky
And we had such hopes for you, John…
Today we are evenly split between SSN posts and “John is a bongoid”.
Granted, an improvement over gravy.
And that’s the epic story of Jocelyne saving her older brother from getting punched in the face.
Yeah, Becky, you don’t want to do that. I’m pretty sure you can go to the SSA and apply for a number if your parents didn’t do this when you were little.
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: Alternate dialogue:
“Yeah, I sprained it on his chin when I uppercut him.”
“…”
“What? Do you not approve?”
“No, I was just unaware that he had a chin.”
Panel 2: Ooh, oh dear, John’s stepping in it a bit here. Could be because he is of the extreme “turn the other cheek” style of Christianity where standing up for oneself is “equally” wrong to receiving violence. Could just be because he’s not keeping in mind the full context of her punching him (while he was threatening her after kidnapping her best friend after pointing a gun at her and then firing a “warning shot”). Either way, though, he’s stepped on a land mine, but hopefully won’t be as big of a dick about it as Carol.
Panel 3: Tick, tick, tick… goes the Joyce bomb.
Panel 4, response 1: Oh, John… you silly goose, no one cares what you think.
Panel 4, response 2: Oh man, is Jocelyne slick here, derailing the guaranteed argument, deliberately including Becky (whom John has yet to actually address directly or even indirectly yet, which is setting off all my passive-aggression alarms), and switching topics in one fell swoop.
Panel 4, immediate follow up response: Oh fuck, she’s used to this isn’t she? Deliberately derailing conversations without looking like she’s picking a fight so as to minimize the amount of hurt she absorbs every time she interacts with family. I now want to give Jocelyne all the hugs in the multiverse.
Panel 5: Oh man, Becky’s body posture here. Her face and eyes say “you’re including me like a regular human part of the family instead of shunning me? This is clearly Space Christmas!”, but her body betrays a distinct discomfort. (I guess she’s still scared, because of everything that has been happening this weekend or maybe it’s the topic of getting housing and work and thus raising the worries she has about being a moocher.
Also, so many happy smiles at Jocelyne clearly caring about her situation as a person instead of making her defend her identity. It’s exactly what Becky needs more of to make her less defensive and more able to relax and process all the shit she’s survived.
Though with all that said, I’m loving the mirror effect going on between Jocelyne and Becky with the clothes and the same slightly guarded body passage. It really underlines the slight tension both are carrying into this family meeting.
Panel 6:
Reaction 1: And a full gesture of support including material support towards finding a job. Again, I’m not sure anyone in comic has explicitly offered this outside of Becky and Dina and this is clearly a huge deal for her. Jocelyne is really doing everything right here in terms of supporting the scared freshly out lesbian.
Reaction 2: Also, I love her dead pan in rejecting the “let me borrow your SS card” joke. No, Becky, identity theft would be something I would advise against… *sweatdrop*
Reaction 3: Oh, man, Becky must have realized in the last week how important that SS card is and is starting to freak out about it. Which raises the spectre of does she even have one or have one at the house that can be found. After all, the Rapturist community I grew up with was very paranoid about government ID cards as potential marks of the beast for the rise of the antichrist. So I could easily see Toedad destroying his daughter’s card. Especially if he knew she wasn’t going to need it for a job, since in his plan she was going to be married immediately or after college and serve as a home school tutor for her kids.
Also, it might be really hard to get a replacement, given that she most definitely doesn’t have a driver’s license or passport and may not even have so much as a school ID from Anderson. Meaning she has no means of proving who she is other than maybe a baby certificate which she may only have a vague idea of where that could be in her undoubtedly police taped or church-picked-over home.
Not that hard. She can get a copy of her birth certificate from her state agency (Dept. of statistics) just by paying a nominal fee for it.
Take that to the SS Office and get her copy of her SSN.
Not all that hard.
I just went thru it for other reasons.
Interesting. Did they require a driver’s license or previous knowledge of the SS card number though as I’m finding conflicting information on that.
I started doing some digging on the subject and found this thing for replacing a card in Connecticut:
http://uwc.211ct.org/social-security-cards-documents-required-to-obtain-a-social-security-number-and-card-or-a-replacement-card/
But not sure how universal those are. Also, how nominal is the fee, because Becky’s current funds can be measured in Arby’s packets?
And sorry if these questions are me being invasive. I’m all curious about this one now.
I’m wondering if she can maybe get an escort into the house to get ID and so forth, especially considering there are people to vouch for her identity.
Also I’m hoping Jocelyn giving a sort of serious answer (at least one acknowledging SSNs are important) might mean she’ll be willing to help out.
Yeah, she definitely seems to know a lot more adult skills so could be a very useful mentor there.
Also, Uniqueantique, I saw your answer on the nominal fee question I had below, so never mind on that one.
Connecticut? The best online place to look should be ssa.gov
Danke!
Okay, it’s looking like she still needs to acquire at least a birth certificate and likely a driver’s license if Anderson doesn’t have a qualifying school ID card (because private religious college):
https://www.ssa.gov/ssnumber/ss5doc.htm
OH god your commentary on Panel 4 it TOO REAL
Oh yes. The Jocelyne/Becky-action is WONDERFUL. In some ways, Jocelyne is behaving a bit like a more toned down Becky who actually has control over what her mouth blabs about – same snark, same cool, same mask.
Panel 3: The piano just stopped playing, the staff is frantically taking down the mirror (just confused for a second about the fact that they didn’t actually have a mirror OR a piano five seconds ago). People are ducking under tables. JOYCE IS DONE TAKING SHIT.
“She will fight for her. She will.”
“A colt revolver clicked”
I apparently completed missed that John hasn’t talked to Becky. Such subtle nuances.
That’s another thing Jocelyne is doing here. In addition to doing it for Becky, I think she’s doing it for John. She’s humanizing Becky. Making it clear she’s a real person, a kid on her own, who needs a safe place and a job and all the usual things a person needs.
She’s not some scary Lesbian monster, even if she’s portrayed herself that way, as her own emotional defense.
That’s a good point. Humanising Becky is important for all of them – for Becky to relax enough to ease up on the Hitler jokes, for John to relate to her as a human, for Joyce to at least delay the explosion she is building up to, and for Jocelyne herself because she probably sees a lot of herself in the scared little queer kid in front of her.
All of both of these. And a really good point of another thing she’s likely doing. And it would be very important to her that her brother be able to see the humanity of a queer pseudo-family member instead of defaulting to the cultural bigotry in which he has been raised.
“It was one joke! One!”
Hopefully the plan that is felt here that Jocelyne is doing helps.
“Look, here is a close friend of the family, suddenly not conforming to the old world binary gender rules of conformity, and she’s not evil. No horns at all.”
“But the hair…”
This is Joyce 2.0, John. She’s not afraid to throw hands. She will throw them so hard at you.
It seems clear that John doesn’t know what all happened to Joyce, as evidenced by the very fact that he’s asking her how she hurt her hand.
I didn’t even think of that. I hate to be in a position of accidently defending a louse. But what if John’s response here has nothing to do with defending Becky’s dad, and is just him going “nonononono I won’t accept that my baby sister was in that much danger please tell me she didn’t literally have to physically defend herself.” Which would fit with the awkwardness, (he doesn’t know how to deal with the fact that she was in danger.) and ignoring Becky (frankly, I would too if it were my kid sister who had been attacked by someone I knew) maybe his last sentence was going to be “I just think you shouldn’t have put yourself in unnecessary danger.”
He has most certainly got his news partly by a Carol-filter (and partly about a news-filter), so that is a distinct risk… in which case he will have to talk REALLY FAST to convince Joyce of not giving him a demonstration of how she hurt her hand.
I’m mostly worried about his attempt to “well, actually” Joyce before Jocelyne cut him off. Even if he has a truncated or Carol-filtered version of events, it means he didn’t bother reading any news stories involving an incident that happened to his own sister and believes that he’s as valid or more valid authority on the subject than the people who were there and lived it (enough at least to pass moral judgment on Joyce for it).
So even if he’s not being an out-and-out asshole, he’s still being a douchebag.
That’s an interesting scale you have there, I would be interested in knowing the endpoints and middle. I mean obvs you have “asshole” to the right of “douchebag”, but where do Hitler and Saddam fall on the scale?
Seriously, something like this could be invaluable to the comments section.
I’m seeing it as more of a multi-axis thing. Like, even if his asshole axis is low, his douchebag axis is pretty high, but luckily his genocidal fuckwit axis is near zero, so points there.
That is a very interesting and hopeful interpretation. I like it.
Factor in that John has known Ross all his life. Dina figured out he was a butt-hole in two minutes. Dina.
John’s only response should have been, “Was this before or after he brought a gun to your school?”.
@Ross: I have a niece who was in a dangerous situation in which her kicking a guy in the nads was entirely just and a tactic which worked. I wish she hadn’t been in that situation, but I’ve never said that; I have, on the other hand, given her huzzahs for her actions given the siuation. I wondered before hand if she might not be going into a dicey situation, but I’ve definitely never said that, never wanted to. She’s awsome and I admire her brass.
That’s not the kind of detail that would be included in a news story.
But ‘man with gun fires shots on campus while attempting to kidnap his daughter at gunpoint’ is.
In fact, it occurs that the other way around is more likely – not knowing that Joyce punched ToeDad is more likely to come from the news than from Carol.
Likely News Story: ‘The gunman was subdued by a bystander who declined comment.’
Likely Carol reportage: ‘I fear for Joyce’s soul…did you know she punched poor Mr McIntyre?’
Remember that Hank asked the same thing. Joyce’s hand injury wasn’t in the news stories. Wouldn’t have been, unless she was interviewed on camera and she either brought it up or the camera showed the brace.
And obviously Joyce didn’t mention it.
Carol may not even know she punched Ross, though Hank’s may have told her by now.
I’m really hoping that if John is horrible (and has not instead gotten false details as some people suggest), this ends in Jocelyn pulling Joyce and maybe Becky aside, maybe under the guise of ‘I want to hang out with them more, you go visit mom or whatever,’ and coming out now that she has felt out some things.
….well, depending on how gradually jocelyn wants to come out, becky would arguably not be the best choice as one of the first people to whom she does so, given becky’s propensity toward. um. subtlety. heck, as much as joyce wants a sister and jocelyn wants to be known to joyce as a sister, joyce herself is not the best for “i’m actually a lady but please keep it on the DL for the sake of family peace/my personal safety because people can be pretty awful/etc”. joyce is getting better at lying/hiding stuff from her family, but i don’t think she’s quite at the “keeping your sister’s identity as trans a secret from everyone else” level just yet.
I dunno about Becky, I know a lot of loud people who can keep a good secret, and she hasn’t, for instance, talked about Joyce’s assault in front of anyone, even though people absolutely do that sort of thing. Besides, I mean, Becky did a good job of hiding her own sexuality from folks like the Browns, and I’m pretty sure she’d respect doing it for someone else.
Joyce I can see your point; I don’t think she’d tell her parents outright (even if she was uncomfortable with Joc at first- she’s learned over the last while that opening up to her parents puts her in dangerous places with them), but I do absolutely thing she could, in the heat of another argument about which kids turned out how, jump to Jocelyn’s defense and accidentally out her, or something else along those lines.
But besides all this, your concerns are why I figured she’d be putting out feelers throughout the lunch (and I think she is doing so, even if she doesn’t mean to come out anytime soon).
I have a feeling that the foreshadowing is on the wall that when Jocelyne comes out it’s much more likely going to be due to her “saying something she can’t ever take back” followed by an appeal to Joyce and Becky for emotional and familial support now that she knows her life is about to go to shit.
Which she’ll get. Once Joyce reboots. Which might take awhile.
I’m still confused by how many people were expecting John to be cool…
Probably because he didn’t immediately say some fucked up shit to or about Becky once he met her.
No, before they met up in the restaurant, over the phone he was acting uncomfortable with Becky and people were still treating it as a near certainty that he was sufficiently cool that Jocelyne was out to him.
The option that Joc might be out to him was actually why I thought being uncomfortable with Becky made sense, because she might not be up to being out to Becky yet, especially if it was planned as a just-Joyce thing.
I highly doubt he’s out to her now, but I just wanted to point out that uncomfortable with Becky actually equally supported either option
* I highly doubt SHE’S out to HIM.
I’m pretty tired.
Because that most pernicious of bad habits, hope.
hope, after all, is a four-letter word, and there’s a REASON it was tucked away in pandora’s box with all the other evils.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Faith in humanity?
Dependents SSNs are entered on tax forms. I suppose it’s possible that Mr. McIntyre never bothered to make copies of his 1040 forms, or never filed taxes for many years (really?), but it seems worth bringing up as something that Becky could try to look for in her former home.
Does…. John not know how Mr. McIntyre pointed a gun at Joyce and her friends? Does he seriously not know what events transpired, or is he also possibly just as fucking awful as his mother seems to be?
I also wonder…But he isn’t asking why she punched him in the face…so maybe he does know??
I wonder if David could “bongo” the word “Jocelyn” to add the “E” automatically?
It might cause problems if a Jocelyn turns up to comment.
That misspelling isn’t deserving of a filter. Bloody ‘Joycelyn’ is.
I could be wrong, but I think that would flag the “Jocelyn” in Jocelyne and turn it into Jocelynee. Then again, that depends on whether the filter is full-word-only (e.g., whether it would turn “bongoy” into “bongoy” or not)
Ok, it includes pieces of words. That’s definitely out as a filter idea then, sorry.
Double filter. First turns “Jocelyne” into “Jocelyn” then adds the “e”.
Programmer thinking!
Unless it then sees that “Jocelyne” and thinks it has to turn it into “Jocelyn”…variation on that happened to me before, that was fun.
Depends on what kind of pattern matching the comment software supports.
…. I now really want to start an extended arguement about Roberta Gregory’s “Bongoy Bongo” comics.
….Ya an extreme reaction to HAVING A GUN POINTED AT YOU ! John there is no debating this there was no logic behind what you just said.
“You see, the important thing to remember is you were both equally extreme. Nothing a bit of prayer can’t fix. He was only looking after his daughter.”
Am I the only one confused by the question mark in panel 6? The sentence seems to be a statement, and she is saying it would be a bad idea to borrow her SSN, but what is the question. (Or is it part of the Indiana dialect of English?)
It’s vernacular, but nothing Indiana-specific. It’s indicating that Jocelyne thinks Becky’s question is strange, and has an obvious answer.
She’s confused, and thus a statement has a question mark.
It’s more to indicate the rise in tone at the end of the sentence, much like a question, rather than to indicate an actual question. It’s the closest English comes to tonal indicators for words.
So she was questioning the question.
(If Earthlings would just communicate in N dimensional Venn diagrams like the rest of this part of the galaxy, it would so much be clearer.)
Just how tuned in to the news that doesn’t pertain to the church and his missionary work is John?
He isn’t on a friendly basis with his parents, any story he heard from them was likely from Carole who thinks Toedad was ‘just doing his fatherly duty’.
He didn’t know how Joyce hurt herself so I think that may be why. I don’t think he knows all of what went on that day.
As to Joycelyn -did good defusing the situation.
Becky needs to send for her birth certificate from the State Dept. of statisics for a nominal fee ($12 for mine). Then use it to walk into a SS Office and get a copy of that. She can even get the SS card by going on line and filling out the forms, and they mail it. Got mine that way in about 2 weeks.
No biggie.
And she likely has all that on file at Anderson college at any rate, and has the right to see it. Just go get it, no one to stop her now.
Of course, the problem is Becky doesn’t have money for all of the nominal fees the process will require.
Hopefully the Sisters Brown can spot her, but there’s all sorts of obstacles for a homeless young adult getting proper documentation.
Oh that’s much less onerous than what I’ve been dealing with. Of course having just been exposed to the internet less than a week ago, I imagine she’s very scared and very without clue on where to begin to access all the paperwork she’s been banned her whole life from knowing about/accessing.
But happy to hear that the process might only be a massive time sink rather than both a time and money sink. Now, here’s to hoping that Toedad wasn’t the sovereign citizen type to deliberately not file a birth certificate.
Like I said above, not knowing how Joyce was injured is evidence against him getting the story from Carol. A news story is likely to not mention her name, or even not mention the punching incident at all, but Carol is likely to fret over Joyce’s soul over it.
If memory serves me right, Hank didn’t know how she injured her hand either until he asked her in the car. If Hank didn’t know until he saw the cast, I find it unlikely that Carol did either. Not saying you’re wrong about John getting his information from the news, mind you. However I find it more likely that Carol’s version of the story is based partially on the same news coverage John got his from, and partially the details she’s made up herself to absolve Toedad of his crimes.
Assuming Becky was born in Indiana, Becky may be in trouble if she can’t get into the house and find some ID. I just checked the requirements to prove identity in Indiana (PDF link), and we don’t know if she has any of that stuff. Her school ID would have been enough, but she was kicked out. If she has a driver’s license or state ID, she’ll be able to get it; do we know if she has one?
At least the cost is only $10.
As far as we know, she hasn’t been officially kicked out of Anderson. Her father turned up to take her away. We’ve never gotten clear indication if they would have kicked her out. Her roommate wasn’t.
I’d also wonder if they would actually call Anderson to check her status, as opposed to just looking at the expiration date on the ID, if it has one.
I’m so happy we’re seeing Jocelyn again. I was SO happy last time we saw her (which was 2013, but I didn’t read this comic until mid-2014), and when I expressed this to my friend who introduced me to DoA, his response was basically “it’s cool, but we probably won’t see her again.” But she’s back, and this means SO MUCH to me!! I hope Jocelyn continues on as at least a somewhat reoccurring minor character.
She has resonated with me for so long, but I never really understood why. But now I realize that after growing up in a home much like Joyce’s, coming to terms with being bi was hard enough, but I’m starting to come to terms with my gender identity as well. When I read Jocelyn’s arc two years ago, I felt a connection with this character that I’ve never felt before. She meant a LOT to me. I’m finally understanding why! I’m so happy we’re seeing her again in this comic!!
*happy hugs* Also, ditto on happiness to see more Jocelyne!
That long ago?!!
We are all time’s playthings.
pardon me while i brush my gray hairs. i thought we met her a few freaking months ago…
You’re slipping into DoA time.
Parent’s weekend was two weeks ago.
oh my god is that why i always think its august?
I feel like people are going to keep pushing Joyce’s buttons until she breaks her other hand punching a family member in the face.
The betting board’s now up on which family member it will be. Remember that Carol only pays $1 for every bet of $50.
What’s the payout on her aiming for Carol and Hank intercepts it?
$5 for every $1, so pretty good odds. John’s sitting at $2 for every $1, but that goes up every time he opens his mouth this dinner, so best to put those bets in quick.
Jocelyne’s sitting at a comfortable $2000 for every $1.
I was about to make a comment about current odds, but then I realized it could be spoiler territory. So I’ll just comment there.
I can’t see Joyce striking Carol, no matter how unpleasant she is, unless she’s an actual physical threat to someone. However, I can see her delivering an excoriating monologue in which she denounces her family’s attitudes towards Becky and, possibly Jocelyne and Jordan and then storming out, her head held high.
That said, from the preview pictures we’ve been seeing, I suspect that Hank and Carol are going to send an extra-family ‘authority figure’ to try to ‘reason’ with Joyce. When she rejects his ‘counsel’, she’ll be thrown out of the family home with Hank doing his usual passive acquiescence with his wife’s bigotry. As above, I suspect she’ll leave with her head held high.
Either way, it won’t be until she’s sitting on the verge of the highway with Becky, trying to hitch a lift back to Bloomington, that she’ll burst into tears.
I agree that she won’t punch Carol, but we know from her date with Joe that striking brothers is another matter, and I’m pretty sure we will see it soon enough unless Jocelyne manages to keep distracting them.
Unless of course the tables are not bolted down – a table flip would work just as well.
Nah, that’s Amber’s gig; Joyce is dogmatic about respecting others’ trademarks!
Especially when the table flipping thing was started by Jesus.
Jesus can flip the table, but can he ollie?
Don’t do identity theft, kids.
Identity theft is bad.
For a moment, while the comic had only a few comments, I was genuinely worried that we’d get an outpouring of people yelling at Becky about identity theft. I am so glad to feel completely silly about that unfounded worry.
To be fair, after some of the reactions she’s gotten, it wasn’t totally unfounded…
See, THIS is why…
Nah, not today. Jokes is jokes is jokes.
Heh. Well played.
I’m still holding on hope that John won’t be quite as terrible as Carol and will simply be the conflict queller of the family.
Not that wouldn’t still be an emotional sting for Becky.
Given how nicely Jocelyne shuts him down, I suspect she’s the conflict queller in the family – for obvious reasons. That’s also a pretty big hint that she knows where he was likely to go and that it was going to be bad.
Which still doesn’t mean he’s quite as terrible as Carol.
God, fuck you John. 🙁
Oh, I’m sure he’ll get much much worse as the dinner progresses on.
I have just returned from the future to inform you that you are entirely fucking right. 🙁
And from the slightly more distant future, I return again, to tell you that he just keeps getting worse and worse. 🙁 🙁 🙁
Jocelyn is so cute! <3 I love her.
I like how Joyce seems to be curling her fingers in the third panel.
“I think it was a proportional response; and my friend here, Mister Thunder, agrees with me.”
“The other arm is named Mister Lightning. Of course, these days he goes first.
They’re married, by the way. YEAH, YOU HEARD ME!”
“One fist of iron, the other of steel,
If the left one doesn’t get you then the right one will.”
Is that related to “If the thunder don’t get you then the lightning will”?
Alternate explanations:
1) John is a pacifist and doesn’t think that violence is ever the answer;
2) John remembers sweet ickle baby Joyce and the thought of her laying out a full-grown man is a cause for shock and concern.
Though I’d think that if it were a matter of being surprised Joyce would fight anyone, he’d want to know what happened to cause her to act so out of character. I don’t read much concern for her in his reaction, though that could also be put down to him not knowing how to respond whatsoever and falling back on the ol’ “ladies shouldn’t act that way.”
I would have believed it if Jocelyn hadn’t headed him off like that. Neither of those two options would have caused much tension.
OK, so here goes.
I am a pacifist. I do not believe in me using violence against other people. I generally don’t think other people should do so either.
BUT, two things:
One: I have, in my adult life, never been subject to a situation where rational thought might be thrown out of the window. I have never been in a situation where instinct takes completely over. And I do not know how I would react then. Maybe I’d become violent after all. Heck, I know I harbor violent instincts, it would be naive of me to think otherwise. For me it isn’t about not wanting to be violent. It’s about (rarely) wanting it but not allowing the wanting to become reality. I think most people are like that anyway, I go just a bit farther in cementing this attitude.
Two: I have led an intensely lucky life in my adult situation. I have not lived life in a society that seeks to actively oppress me and/or the people I care about. I have not been in a fundie household that wants to eradicate my gay friends. I have not lived life as a common person in Burma during decades of military dictatorship. The list goes on and on and on.
So if f.ex. Joyce punching Toedad happened in real life, and I got to learn all the details around it? I could not condemn her for that. I just could not. It’s sad, of course it is sad… But nowhere near as sad and horrible and extreme as the whole situation leading up to it.
I can really only be a pacifist on my own behalf. I can give my opinions to other people if they ask for it. I will not ever truly condone violence. But I also cannot and will not condemn all acts of violence equally.
I could see a devout pacifist saying something like “I understand the impulse, in that horrible situation, but violence is still wrong” or in a more Christian context, “but we are still commanded to turn the other cheek”.
“That’s a pretty extreme reaction” just doesn’t go there. It implies it’s an extreme reaction to the situation, not that it’s a thing we should never do. It implies there might be situations where it would be appropriate, but this wasn’t one of them. I just can’t read that and think “sympathizes with her, but is pacifist”.
And at the very least, you don’t condemn your sister for the violence without first condemning Ross’s greater violence and making sure she knows how glad you are she’s alright and that Becky’s safe and how screwed up Ross was to have done that in the first place. Especially in this context, where you know she can’t be sure you’re going to approve.
Everything we explicitly don’t see from John here.
Yeah, replace everything I said with what thejeff said. thejeff makes much more sense.
Amber taking a knife away from a cop to do a Luco Brazi on Sal, THAT was a bit extreme. Joyce punching out Toedad, not so much.
You sure do love reaching for alternate, less-dickheaded motivations for the behaviour of reprehensible jerks. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
There goes my theory that John is another secretly not-so-conservative sibling (or hiding a secret husband). He seems pretty old-fashioned here, assuming Joyce was in the wrong for fighting without even knowing the situation. Or he’s just really, REALLY bad at reading social cues.
Proportional my fucking ass. That fleshing needs a goddamd fusion cannon to the face.
That’s how fleshings swear right?
Close enough.
Kinetic impulse his thermal exhaust port.
Joyce: I’m about to show you an extreme response. I still have one good wrist.
And good healthy legs after that.
Hell, the human skull is pretty hard.
Probably that’s why vikings were using skulls as cups.
“No you’re totally right the next time someone is kidnapping my best friend at gunpoint I will offer them my hand in marriage and a blowjob, that sound better bro?”
Seriously I really hope it turns out he doesn’t know the whole story or he will join Joyce’s mom on my list of horrible fucking people. I know people aren’t one dimensional but there is abstractly saying something horrible and then specifically saying something horrible.
This isn’t like a casual racist who treats people they are racist against with respect and dignity regardless of their beliefs. This is a person who looked the person they are prejudice against and effectively said, “You are not a person you are property owned by the man in your life right now that is your father. You and me are slaves because we are women our men own us and he shouldn’t be in jail for trying to ‘fix’ his property” That’s effectively what her blaming Becky shit boils down to.
She can justify it however she wants but when you determine that anyone has the right to enforce their will over your or anyone else’s then you have enslaved yourself and others to that person.
Or he could just be a pacifist.
“Eh, I dunno, if he pointed a gun at and kidnapped your lifelong friend you’d want to slug him too”
For jocelyne :
wooohoooo you rock, that’s one of the moment we’ve been all waiting for <3
Ah, here’s where I can see Jocelyne being the peacemaker. I read Willis’ comment on Tumblr the other day about her pacifying Becky, but didn’t properly connect the dots til now.
It’s a survival mechanism when you’ve got a rickety and untenable closet and a family on the verge of shattering. Just keep the peace, settle everyone down and maybe a big enough argument to make you snap and reveal yourself won’t happen.
Even in a family that isn’t a stressful mess, it’s super common for a middle child to be the mediator/peacemaker, so Jocelyn gets it from every direction.
Best case scenario, the way John puts emphasis on the word ‘pretty’ instead of the word ‘extreme’ could imply he suddenly felt very awkward for bringing up Toedad and made a hasty attempt to derail the conversation. With an added case of foot in mouth. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
It was restrained. She should have broken both his knees.
And his hands.
For security. Yeah….
Wise advice from Jocelyne, by the way: Identity theft, even consensual, is never the best way to go!
…well my hopeful prediction didn’t pan out.
GO JOCELYN tho
Oh thank god. A comic that doesn’t end in “I am the fool.”
john will most likely turn out to be a bad person, but logically you dont have to be a bad person (or not have a secret husband or any of the other theories) just cause you say that punching someone is extreme and starting to say “i just think”. f.ex, “thats a pretty extreme reaction” might just be him trying to talk but failing. or he thinks its an extreme reaction for being joyce who might not like violence, maybe she was totally againdt it when she lived at home? or maybe he thinks its an extrme reaction in general, not taking into account that the person she punched was ready to kill which is more extreme. he might not even know that there was killing or suicide or guns involved. “i just think” could be anything. “i just think you shouldve been more careful (with your hand)” “i just think the police shouldve taken care of it” “i just think brocolli is tasty, why does everyone hate it?”
or “i just think THAT BASTARD SHOULDVE DIED IN A CARCRASH BEFORE HE EVEN GOT TO THE CAMPUS DAMN IT” which is why jocelyne stopped him
Re the social security thing: Other women have found themselves in Becky’s situation, like Alecia Pennington:
http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/02/10/when-your-very-identity-is-held-hostage-alecia-pennington-and-identification-abuse/
Unfortunately, her dad is not in prison.
I do find it odd that kids these days are born with a SSN. I had to fill out and sign a bunch of paperwork to get my SSN; when I first heard about babies having SSNs my reaction was, “babies can sign their names?”
Get off my lawn, etc.
Yeah, that’s my fear for what her full situation is. If it is, Becky essentially will be in the same boat as an undocumented worker and all the fun that entails.
She’ll actually be an undocumented worker, which is why I don’t like that particular turn of phrase. I get that people don’t like “illegal” being a description for a noun describing a person, but the illegal residency is the actual issue.
And I say that as someone who supports amnesty, wants the U.S. to be more open to immigration, and totally feels for people coming from such horrible lives that even coming or staying here illegally seems like the better option.
So far, the best I’ve got is “illegally immigrated person.” Or, less formally “people who are here illegally.”
People who have been made illegal simply for existing?
trlkly used a perfectly legitimate phrase: “People who are here illegally.” It is the location, not the existance that is illegal. If I were found inside Microsoft headquarters, I would be there illegally. However I got in would have to have been illegal entry.
She’d be an undocumented worker IF she could get work without an SSC/SSN — but wouldn’t it be illegal to hire her without those, so she’d be illegal? AND ALSO as Cerberus says, “made illegal for simply existing”, existing as who they are, here today in the USA.
I’m tellin’ ya, man, the eyes are a give away. Any Brown family member without Them Big Ol’ Baby Blues is (based on what evidence I’ve been able to discern) a tremendous fuckwit.
A few years ago, a young woman had to sue her parents to get her birth certificate. She was home schooled and born at home, so her parents never bothered to apply for one. When, as an adult, she tried to live on her own, she did she couldn’t get a job without it and the SSN card. (She lived in one of those families where the daughters stay at home under their father’s leadership until passed over to a husband.)
Anyway, Becky and her SSN card made me think of that.
Punching a dude who threaten your friend with a shotgun is an extreme reaction? Come on.
Riiiiiiiight?
I get the feeling like a different version of the story is going around. I’m actually curious as to how John would have finished that sentence, because I’m betting he doesn’t even know a gun was involved.
How is it that I only JUST noticed that Becky and Jocelyn are wearing pretty much the same outfit?
I really hope that was intentional because it’s awesome symbolism! 😀
It might even be that Jocelyne chose to pick a slightly more female coded ensamble than usual, just to support Becky’s coming out.
In either case, awesome!
My headcanon is that Becky is crashing in Jocelyne’s room and found a cool shirt hidden in the back of the closet.
I feel like I say this every time but I just really love Jocelyne so much. The way she shuts John up and her last panel dialogue are the best. She’s bae.
Also, shut up, John.
Man, if we made a drinking game out of “a Brown says something awful” we’d all die of alcohol poisoning. Not Jocelyne, though. Jocelyne is cool. I also like how incredibly befuddled she is at Becky request for her SSN, “that’s so incredibly stupid that I’m going with wait, what as my response.”
Heh, that’s true, and not an incredibly unusual reaction to Becky’s…. less grounded ideas.
If I’m going to die of alcohol poisoning I’d rather it be drinking whenever a blue eyed Brown is awesome.
Even if Jon doesn’t know that Becky’s dad pointed a gun at Joyce, if he has watched or read any news on it at all then he knows about the gun and that Becky was kidnapped.
Jon knows that Mr. McIntire brought a gun onto a school campus. Even if he doesn’t know specifics, his “extreme response” comment is way out of line.
Jon being a pacifist does not explain or justify this either. Personally believing that all violence is wrong does not mean you tell someone that stomped on the foot of the guy who was holding a knife to their neck to escape that they’re the one who “overreacted”. That is victim-blaming bullshit. You want to tell someone not to be violent, how about you start with the guy you know had a weapon.
Yeah, that’s looking like exactly the direction John is going in. Hopefully he’ll let the conversation stay derailed.
I swear Jon, I was willing to keep the benefit of the doubt very open for you. If the end of that sentence wasn’t gonna be “…. I just think you should find a way to mete out justice that doesn’t damage yourself. A nice kick to the nads would’ve been as effective but far easier on your joints”
“At least aim for the soft parts. If you’ve got to punch someone, go for the gut.
Apparently, we need to teach you to fight properly.”
The good Lord gave us elbows for a reason.
“God bless the human elbow!
God bless it where it bends:
If it bent too long we’d be dry I fear;
If it bent too short we’d be drinking through our ear!”
Remember to sing, Joyce.
Solarplexus.
Instep.
Neck.
Groin.
Darn.
“North Carolina Residents Terrified After Hearing State Passed New Law”
http://www.theonion.com/article/north-carolina-residents-terrified-after-hearing-s-52670
Bob damn do I love the Onion.
As an NC resident, I can vouch that this is a common, completely normal reaction for us.
Which is very, very frightening, because up here by the Great Lakes we have the impression that NC is one of the more rational parts of the Confederacy.
I really like the art in this one, particularly how Jocelyne is drawn. Her body language reads very feminine, but in a subtle way, which is impressive since it seems like in a lot of things I see, the only real indication of gender is outward cues like body and hair. Maybe exaggerated motions, like trying to be sexy (or anime cutsie poses), which this isn’t. Good job!
Whoa, in the last panel I think she’s expressing empathy with Becky by mirroring her arm crossing in the panel before.
It is quite possible that he got his news from Carol News Network, so I’m gonna give him a benefit of doubt for now.
Also, it’s April the 1st, and plot twists today aren’t to be trusted…
Today’s top story! Ungrateful daughters and the lesbian harpies stealing them away from you. Full
rantstory at 11.You know, it only just occurred to me, but wouldn’t BeckyXJocelyn be pretty much the perfect pairing? Admittedly, we don’t know for sure whether Jocelyn prefers guys or girls, (her interactions with Ethan suggest MAYBE guys, but that might also have just been reaching out to an obvious kindred spirit, so it’s hard to say) but Becky is pretty open-minded, and I think she wouldn’t have much trouble getting over the fact that Jocelyn doesn’t have the right equipment, especially considering that she looks almost EXACTLY like the girl Becky has been crushing on all her life. And on top of that Jocelyn understands where Becky is coming from better than pretty much anybody else.
I hesitate to support anything in this comment section that will make Dina sad, since that’s a good way to get tarred and feathered around here, but I think it could work out. Dina and Becky’s relationship always struck me as kinda’ unhealthy, (with Becky on the rebound and Dina mostly trying to prove everybody who thinks of her as just a little girl and can’t imagine her in a relationship wrong) so sad as it might be, I’m pretty much with Sarah on the idea of it being doomed to fail. Until events prove it wouldn’t work, I am officially on the S.S. BeckyXJocelyn.
See, I tend to think people can be kind to and supportive of eachother without it having to be a ship.
Maybe it’s me, and I’m out of touch or something, but life’s pretty rough sometimes and you help eachother along as best you can. Doesn’t make it a super-kawaii pairingfest when you do.
I friend ship them. Like with Walky/Amazi-girl or Sal/Danny. Just too much good potential in them having each other as outlets and friends.
Crazy dreamer!
Jocelyne likes boys.
And I don’t get this weird idea where relationships having problems means they have to be stop. Perfect relationships are boring. Becky/Dina was fine and dandy at the start but eventually them just being cute and happy would get old.
Yes, that would get old quick. I mean, just week after week with mouth-smooches and dinosaurs and running around like doofuses and hugs and adorable museum dates and Becky babbles and Dina-discussions… who would want that?
It’d be hella boring to read about after a while, is what I was getting at. For a series that has a lot of romance drama, a relationship with none of that would be a giant snoozefest. Walky/Dorothy are pretty stable and happy, and then every once in a while the drama breaks loose and Dorothy’s talking about how leaving one day is going to break her heart and Walky’s clamming up because he doesn’t want to admit he’s going to miss her. A relationship that can end is always more interesting than one with no difficulty.
TBH, apart from my already documented love of how Dina is a neurodivergent woman who is treated with dignity and seeks out a relationship because it’s something she wants and enjoys, I also really like how Becky/Dina isn’t this automatically perfect romance that will last for all eternity, and instead they have problems like every other relationship ever.
I don’t know. Some of my favorite relationships in comics are ones that you can take for granted and they become part of the social structure of the comic. Obvious ones are most marriages, but I think Tedd and Grace from El Goonish Shive is also great, even though even the author, looking back, admits it started as wish fulfillment and so was designed to go from 0-60 quickly and work out forever from the start, and that probably wasn’t the best way to write it. But he’s used it to great effect since then.
I think in a relationship drama centered series like DOA, they don’t really work. My favourite webcomic romance ever, Joyce and Walky, were basically destined together from Day 1. Despite this, there was angst and drama and romantic false leads, and when they finally do get together halfway through It’s Walky!, it starts the next story for them, and their relationship is thoroughly explored until the end of the series. There’s really no question that they not stay together, but we still see them work hard to make their relationship succeed. A nice simple relationship sounds great to me, but it makes for boring fiction.
Like, the relationship I’m most invested in right now is Amber/Danny, partly because they’re my favourite characters, and partly because they’re in such a precarious place that they can go anywhere. Them working through their problems together is just as viable a possibility as it all ending really painfully, and that’s what’s most interesting to me.
…can I question the “doesn’t have the right equipment” bit? We have no idea what Jocelyn’s physical transition status is, nor is it the kind of thing I’m comfortable speculating on. Wayyyy too close to real life grossness (and all the awful transmisogynistic reasons given for not wanting to date trans women).
Also like, yeah, lesbian does not equal genital preference, it equals gender preference. Which yes causes a huge stink when cis lesbians try to separate out trans women as undateable as a stable category.
Is it outside the realm of possibility that he just didn’t get the whole story?
I mean if he’s distant from his own family, he might have heard “that guy we used to know that we (at least Dad) tolerate, but it’s a stretch, is in the hospital”, or something and just went “oh”.
Honestly, I have no idea what the rest of the world off-campus is like, from how it’s depicted here, but I wouldn’t assume everyone takes gunplay, Jurassic Park recreation, chase-scenes involving troubled young people dressed as superheroes, motorcycle tricks and so on for granted as a thing that happens. If someone told me a synopsis of what happened, I sure wouldn’t believe it. 😉
He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt because he won’t give it to his own little sister.
Yeah that sums it all up. He MIGHT be mistaken. He MIGHT have the wrong idea. He MIGHT build up to hand Joyce the Best-Sibling-Award, punching douchbag level…
But from his perspective, however limited his information he could also consider that little miss never-disobey-an-authority-figure Joyce MIGHT have punched the man with the gun with a good reason. That Becky’s situation MIGHT be bad enough that Joyce over-protective stance is justified and that it MIGHT be worth meeting her with trust and support while getting the full story.
You know, like their father did.
Yeah, the only way John gets out of this looking good at all is if he’s been straight up lied to, like nobody told him about the gun. And even then, it’s more a matter of looking a bit less bad.
John that’s your little sister. Fuck you.
Also I love the side eye that Jocelyne is giving him. He definitely deserves it.
I wonder if the Brown family’s new favorite Christian Country and Western song is “I will die I will die for you.” With apologies to Mumford and Sons.
What is the virtue of a proportional response? (I did a control-f for “West Wing” and found none… Sad.)
There are two ways I see John going, and neither of them are a repeat of Carol. The first, and the most hopeful, is that he is the person who has to be convinced. That he’s grown up being indoctrinated, and it’s going to take him time to come to terms with it. You have to remember that even Joyce is moving way faster than is remotely realistic. I’m not even sure about Hank.
The second is that he’s going to be the “well-meaning” antagonist. You know, the one that tries to be nice, thinking you get more flies with honey, unlike Carol who just wants to be a bongo about the whole thing. You know, those nice people that have these horrible views.
I guess a third interpretation, and one I guess I’d be okay with, is that he’ll see Joyce’s reaction as sinful, but understandable. You know, someone in between Hank who is proud and Carol who thinks it’s horrible. Kinda the equivalent to the Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin, but that there’s no reason to hate anyone because of it, and that they should have the right to be married if they want it.
Sorry, that was supposed to be a top-level comment.
Why wouldn’t Becky have her SSN? I mean the house is hers now, Toedad is in jail, he can’t keep it from her.
Hasn’t been time for a raid on Chez MacIntyre, despite all the demands for it from the commentariat. Some people assume it has either been sealed off by the police or stripped by the church.
John doesn’t even know the situation. Why is he judging how extreme punching him was?
I hate to say it, but look at his family. They’ve all been very judgmental about things and people before they know anything about them. Even Joyce, when we first met her, while she tried to be nice about it, was still clearly bothered by other people’s alternate life-decisions or lifestyles (like Atheism).
It’s also quite possible that Becky doesn’t actually have a SSN. Some fundies don’t register their children’s births at all. Then it’s a big hassle to get a SSN as an adult.
Possible, but unlikely. Ross and the Browns were in the same church and the same circles. Obnoxious as they are, they’re not quite to that level. Sadly, LGBTQ-hating fundies are pretty run of the mill. Those that refuse to even let the government know about their kids are a lot rarer.
Well, I don’t know the average age that someone gets their Social Security number… I think my parents applied for mine when I was 7 or 8. Basically, not long after I started learning cursive (which is why my signature on my card looks NOTHING like my signature today). But definitely before the age of even learning anything about sex or sexual identity. (At least for me… maybe I was a slow learner.)
I thought that nowadays parents had to have a SSN to claim children as dependents, hence newborns leave the hospital with a SSN.
Damn, Jocelyne gives the best advice in the world. I’m gonna hire her to guide me through college.
Doesn’t she.
It’s neat to see her going into grown-up mode, despite her obvious preference for high-fives and teasing Joyce. She realizes that no one else will. She can’t trust her parents to do it because she knows their prejudices well. (She’ll probably be surprised Hank’s come as far as he has.) And she’s right about that. She sees John not doing it. She knows Joyce (and by extension any other friends at school) aren’t capable of it because they’re not really adults yet, just like Becky’s still growing up.
And she probably knows people who’ve gone through similar things, so she’s got a good idea what the struggles are. She’s probably planned it out for herself, back when she was still at home or at school: What would happen if they found out?
So here she is, asking the practical all grown up questions and trying to figure out how to help.
HE PULLS A GUN BECAUSE SHE LIKES LIP ACTION WITH THE LADIES BUT PUNCHING THE DUDE IS THE EXTREME REACTION OKAAY
Anyone else wondering what name Jocelyne would’ve provided to Becky as a reference, especially since her actual name is used on her website?