Hey, remember when yesterday’s strip mentioned Becky’s trip up to Anderson to get her stuff? Well, one of this (well, last) month’s bonus strips over at the Dumbing of Age Patreon depict a short scene from this excursion. Hello, Kaitlin! Probably goodbye, Kaitlin!
The other bonus strip for November is about Dean McHenry, who won that month’s vote. There’s some Robin and Ms. Eables in there, too.
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in her updated character sheet she’s trapezoidal and voiced by Lewis Black
Joyce you were doing so well about the lesbians thing, please don’t stop just because of feathered giant dinosaur chickens
It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Archaeopteryx!
It’s Lot and his daughters, not Lot and his sons!
It’s David and Goliath, not David and Goldie Hawn!
David’s gonna have to take down Kurt Russell if he wants a shot at Goldie Hawn. And we all know Snake Plissken don’t mess around.
Don’t tell me what I can and can’t ship!
Not “who” but “what” eh? This is getting really juicy!
Maybe its mike. Hes an it right?
I would kinda prefer that. I mean, with those ancestors “the body of christ” would be mcnuggets. That’s a good reason to become a catholic right there!
I prefer “giant dinosaur turkeys”. Ever been up close to a wild turkey? It’s real easy to believe that they’re cousin to velociraptors.
This year I was thankful for evolution evolving a dinosaur into a walking ball of meat with a tiny brain
Evolution turned dinosaurs into awesome birds with brains that can learn the meaning of human words, use tools, and navigate in 3D. Intelligent design turned birds into walking balls of meat with tiny brains.
Unless you’re a lazy hungry omnivore, evolution is way cooler.
Also, bananas are a result of intelligent design. Specifically, *our* intelligent design. We bred them to be the way they are. So Ray Comfort was ever so slightly, kind of, sort of, not-really-but-a-little-more-than-you-would-have-thought, right about bananas. Don’t get used to it, his batting average is still too low to calculate, even if we gave him a complete “hit” on that one, and not just “there’s TECHNICALLY a sliver of truth in there somewhere.”
Well, I am lazy, hungry, and an omnivore right now…
Well, that is more selective breeding than evolution, so directed evolution, or intelligent design, as Inkblot said. Wild turkeys are very smart, not dumb as rocks like their domesticated brethren.
This is why we need Jurassic Park to become a reality! So we can discover whether or not velociraptors are good with cranberry sauce!
FOR SCIENCE!
Then John Madden would ask his chef to cook a chicken stuffed inside of a duck stuffed inside of a velociraptor.
Velocirapducken!
Better than velociturducken, which is just a turducken thrown into a wall at high speed.
(Rapturducken, of course, is the proper name for turducken inside velociraptor. Not to be confused with Rap Turducken, which is a terrible musical group, nor with turducken wraps, which aren’t bad with a bit of barbecue sauce.)
Velociraptors were kind of…small. Smaller than turkeys. About the same as a mid-sized chicken. To get something big enough to stuff a turkey into, you’d need to go to Deinonychus – or even Achillobator since modern food turkeys are pretty massive*. (Utahraptor would probably be overkill.)
* Deinonychus was estimated to weigh 2-3 times what a good sized turkey does…but the actual body wasn’t too terribly much larger.
yeah better go with Utahrapturduckin instead.
on the bright side this makes it extremely easy to get the turduckin into the dinosaur the tricky part is not becoming part of the meal as well.
Taste has more to do with lifestyle than classification. We don’t eat a lot of predatory birds or reptiles, and I’m guessing there is a reason. Better to try some of the large herbivorous dinosaurs.
Crocodile is a fairly common article of food, though not of course a staple. I’ve eaten it; it tastes fine, though it’s a bit bland.
The reason that predators other than predatory fish are not eaten much is the expense. Their food conversion ratios are below one, so it makes better sense to eat their food than their flesh.
I have been up close with ostriches, emus, and a cassowary.
–Which are all obviously still dinosaurs when you see them up close.
And yet you lived! Good for you, those are mean, dangerous bastards.
There was a fence between me and the cassowary.
Cassowaries, anyone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA58sS3x2Oo
Those things are dinosaurs!
Or emus. When they stare at you, you know they’re thinking, “ten maillion years ago, my ancestors ATE yours. I LONG FOR THE PAST.”
LOL My parents had a pet emu when I was in college, and when I’d visit them, she (the emu) would flip out if I wore my favorite leopard-print vest. She didn’t want to be within ten feet of me, even for food, but if I wasn’t carrying a food bucket, she’d bolt as soon as she saw me across the yard.
Shiny watches, on the other hand, were a good way to nearly get your arm bitten off at the wrist. ^^;
We also found a lot of frogs, birds, small mammals and once a snake stomped flat in her pen. Apparently being highly territorial includes stomping any living creature smaller than oneself into a pancake and then stomping it a few more times for good measure. 😐
There’s a reason we lost the Great Emu War of 1932.
I was up close to several Wild Turkeys last night, but I’m a little hung over this morning . . .
Benjamin Franklin’s quote about the turkey comes to mind;
“An incredibly brave fellow who wouldn’t flinch from attacking a whole regiment of Englishmen single-handedly! Therefore, the national bird of America is going to be…”
Those wild turkeys are some real clevah girls…
I just realized that a chicken could win a fight with a velociraptor. It’d go like this:
*Velociraptor cuts chicken’s head off with claw*
*beat*
*Chicken disembowels velociraptor with spurs*
you mean the chicken would bet the other chicken in a fight?
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150512-bird-grows-face-of-dinosaur
She’s come so far in such a short amount of time; if she didn’t have a hiccup like this, I’d start to think she wasn’t human.
Joyce!Anger: GAAAAAAH!!!!!
Joyce!Fear: UH…should we do something?
Joyce!Disgust: With what? Joy is in a stuper and Sadness is in the corner crying! It’s only us left for now…
I love this!!!
The Greek chorus is dismissed by Joyce as promoting Greek mythology.
…someone please draw this.
shit, THAT’S what I was gonna do tonight
stupid phoenixing an old Atari 2600 clone archaeologically dug from my parents’ basement over Thanksgiving
Or maybe since Anger never really had a long shot at the controls, the others decided it was his turn?
Once again, this comments section needs a Like button!
Well, if I may interject… I was basically Joyce years ago. My first battle was accepting gays, and I managed that when I was 17. It wasn’t until I was 24 that I finally realized “Hey, you know… maybe there’s something to this ‘evolution’ thing.”
I’m currently studying it ravenously and plan on going back to college to pursue a career in evolutionary biology. Hearts and minds can change, ya’ll! Just give it some time!
Joyce is in full-ennui mode! She’s brooding and craving rich sauces!
Sarah will be like “WHOA, you need to lighten up Joyce”.
“NO LIGHTENING UP!! I want…. MOLE SAUCE.”
Thanks to the thread just above, I totally misread that as “full-emu mode”.
I am okay with that.
So Joyce will soon give chase and peck her?
I’m not sure what that means, so I’m gonna go with ‘tsundere’.
Damn Joyce, that’s one nasty look.
I get the feeling Becky has just been acting like nothing has even happened, and that rustles Joyce’s jimmies
Creationism is one of the things Joyce hasn’t let go of. Yet, anyway.
It might be somewhat intentional. Like, if she clings to this moment of positivity and rebirth, then she can stiff-arm the fear and the PTSD and the raw hurt of everything she ever knew literally coming to hunt her down like an animal. And there’s a bit of genuineness to that. She really has stolen a rebirth for herself and really is excited about getting a real education and having real prospects and learning more about the crazy wooly world of Biology.
And that’s putting a strain on her relationship with Joyce because Joyce isn’t moving on and is feeling ripped open and like she can’t quite jump forward whole hog without losing either her faith or her soul and Joyce may even resent her for being optimistic and happy and not at all in turmoil about her faith.
Also, she especially boaster to her dad she was going to be a scientist and reject specifically that crap, so she ain’t letting go of that anytime soon XD
Yeah, I’m getting that feeling, too. Like ‘I put myself through Hell for you, why don’t you have the decency to be as freaked out as I am?’ And probably feeling bad about thinking that, and maybe even resenting Becky for THAT.
This is kind of my interpretation, too. I think Joyce resents that Becky is handling things so well. But Becky inevitably has already had her “my upbringing was toxic bullshit” moment. Possibly even before she got caught at her previous college. She likely already had a feeling she was never going to fit into the world she was brought up to fit into.
Joyce has at this point had everything she had known in terms of emotional security, safety, and probably even her spirituality uprooted and thrown into complete chaos. It could be very understandably jarring to watch Becky gleefully embracing a new world.
They always warned her if she kept making that face it would get stuck that way…
This is the comment I was looking for.
*waves hand*
This *isn’t* the comment you were looking for…
This *isn’t* the comment I was looking for…
(Damnit, wrong avatar.)
(Shit, not that one either.)
I’m really really scared for Joyce right now it isn’t even funny
Someone needs to help Joyce. Becky? Dorothy?
…Sarah?
Anyone? 🙁
Spoiler: She’s just having PMS, *phew*
Alternative theory: She needs a boyfriend. (read: a good sexin’)
Speaking of not even funny.
Yeah I almost didn’t send that. My nerves were too raw for such a crude joke at this stage… I apologize to those offended. I’m just super worried and wanted to lighten the mood.
For future reference: Most people who have periods don’t find PMS jokes funny because they invalidate real anger. As for the sex part, I think our sexually repressed Joyce won’t be navigating those waters for a long time yet!
I am on the rag right now and though the PMS joke was lukewarm (as in, pretty rote), but not terribly unfunny.
Joyce being like a week away (her time) from nearly being raped by a guy who pretended to be the kind of guy she thinks she’s looking for made the boyfriend/sexin’ part sour. It’s not terribly funny in any situation, but in Joyce’s situation it’s especially bad taste.
4 weeks, actually, I think. Not that it invalidates your point.
hm, wow.
CHRIST! Is it just me or is Joyce getting…worse?
No srsly, WTF happened to her supporting Becky and being happy for her?! Where’d all THAT go!?
Is in the shared pooper for some reason, Señor
I would like it back
To be fair, she seemed happy enough last strip (well neutral anyway) when Becky and Dina were being more girlfriendy together. It does kinda seem that Joyce’s scowl is entirely about the evolution issue… which I thought Dina already took care of ages ago with flu shots and logic.
I think that just crashed Joyce.exe; the conflict just hasn’t been retriggered since.
creepypasta’s on the lunch menu
@Leslie, I think she wants very badly for everything she believed not to be a lie. Her best friend is gay? Okay. Being gay does not make you an evip spawn of Satan? That’s cool. The Church is wrong and even oppressive about, well, just about everything. Well alright. Evolution and mass of extinction. Gorramit, that’s going too far!
Yeah, I think you’re right, LB4S. She’s irritated at the painful things battering her once pleasant life, she’s let so many exceptions slip through her once iron-clad beliefs in the name her friendship and love and all those things that are much healthier than religious obsession, but it’s been wearing at her.
When you think about it, she felt personal guilt at harm she had done to her gay friends (Ethan and Becky) so she took it onto herself to fix it. She came to believe that she was wrong before, and now she is right.
But throughout all the instances where Dina mentions evolution, she was always annoyed. She never came to terms with it, and has always thought it was dumb. She excepts Dorothy the atheist because she’s a wonderful person. Her thought process is: “Atheists can be good people too.”
But accepting Dina… and now Becky, directly and indirectly saying “the atheist concept of evolution is true” is nothing like that. If Dorothy started to blab about atheism and evolution all around, Joyce would start straying away from her too, I imagine. But she is gentle around Joyce and respectful of her boundaries.
Becky and Dina are (annoyingly, to Joyce’s ruined mental state) happy through Joyce’s way of life falling apart, and they are cheerfully throwing evolutionist thoughts left and right, and that’s just hitting Joyce hard, as expected. This is just my take.
I think she hasn’t dared talk with Becky (or anyone else) about what her mother said, and the parallel. Internalizing everything.
You may be right. That’s very unhealthy. She needs someone who feels at least a bit “like home” to talk to. I think at this stage… Dorothy is her best bet. Becky’s changed so fast, Ethan’s dumped-ish, Walky’s too socially dumb for sensitive issues like this, Billie’s not really a close friend… Would Sal help? Probably not. And everybody else is mostly just an acquaintance to her. Now Dorothy’s an atheist, but Joyce loves her in a way. She admires and trusts her, except that one time she got drunk. Joyce needs Dorothy therapy.
Perfect cinnamon roll.
Too good for this world, too pure.
Dorotherapy.
Both of them are very big on internalizing and suffering alone and quietly, which… sadly is what you are trained to do when you are a girl in that particular sect. You suffer in secret, so you can be ready to be the “heart of the family” when needed and as long as you never admit your longings or your pains or your fears then the whole shiny edifice can keep lurching forward.
Honestly, that last piece might be the last thing either of them sheds from that whole worldview.
I think Joyce’s issue with evolution is that creationism is one of the harmless aspects of her religion, one of her few deep seated beliefs that hasn’t been torn to shreds by negative experiences. She wants to believe, she needs to believe but once again she’s standing alone, not even Becky is backing her up on this. This one simple obvious belief she’s had her whole life, something she thought was funny and cute about Dina for believing otherwise. But this is different from the other times, this isn’t something she can find loopholes in, something that could have been misinterpreted or written off as a problem of the person, creationism to her is all or nothing, it’s either completely true or an absolute lie. And if it’s a lie then what can she believe in anymore? If one of the core beliefs she’s held her whole life is a lie what can she believe? What can she trust? Is it ALL a le? And what can she do then? And worse, she’s standing alone for this revelation.
evolution is a really hard battle because, like, it flips everything you thought you knew completely around. it’s like “hey guess what not only were the people you loved completely wrong, they also lied to you because they couldn’t deal with scientific facts!!”
I dunno. I’ve never found it that difficult to accept sciences like evolution alongside my faith as a Christian. I mean, the oldest stories in the Bible go back to 1200 BC! And they’ve been translated down from one language into another ever since. It would already be a huge leap of faith to assume that all that information is accurate, let alone that every single story is factual rather than allegory. I mean, it’d be nice if some of those stories of miracles intervening to help people out of dire straights are true, but there simply isn’t ever a way to know. On the other hand, science has been very good at answer the great “HOW” of the universe but hasn’t yet found a way to get at the “WHY”. You can argue that there doesn’t need to be a higher power or any rhyme or reason to the universe….and I *almost* agree with that. Except…If we are all just cosmic dust left over from one a tiny little dot of condensed everything exploded and all the stuff of the universe started swirling around each other and formed into a chaotic series of circling galaxies and stars and planets….all of that makes sense….but then why do the particles that make up the first tiny bits of life start acting of their own accord? That’s the disconnect I have. Physics and astronomy explain everything that came before and during the formation of life, and evolution and biology how life changed and built itself up into what we have and are today….but that flicker of being that turned inert particles into the first tiny little bits of life with its own simple will to grow and live? I dunno. Logic says to me that the cold, dead stuff of the universe should stay cold and dead, not glom together into bits of DNA that improve upon itself until you have a thinking being walking around. That all of these particles that make up you have decided to intermix together to form this infinitely complex being rather than remain nothing but gas and dust seems completely absurd from my perspective, and yet that is what is happening. Life is my affirmation that the universe is far more absurd, complex, and wonderful than science is yet equipped to explain. So, religion tempered with morality will fill in those gaps for now.
If I remember right, during that argument she had a conveyer belt in her mind that dumped any facts that didn’t fit her preconceptions so “evilution” may be a sticking point she just doesn’t know how to get rid of yet.
Dina didn’t convince Joyce about evolution so much as Mike redirected her focus to draw dicks on whiteboards.
Pretty sure it went the way of, “All the things I thought were good turned out to be bad and my whole worldview is collapsing around me.”
She can accept lesbians, she can accept Becky dating Dina even though she’s an evilutionist. But she seems upset at the idea of someone with the same background as her discarding what she still sees to be super important beliefs. (Namely young Earth creationism)
While I think it’s sort of silly myself, young earth creationism is certainly the LEAST destructive of the beliefs she was brought up with and the least likely to affect the way she deals with people on a day to day basis.
While it’s not as destructive on a personal level, it is destructive on a societal level. It encourages denial and mistrust of science. This general mistrust of science leads to denying things that are critically important to society, like climate science.
I would argue that it can be destructive on a personal level as well, at least, the larger implications of a disbelief in evolution and a belief in Creationism (especially Young Earth Creationism). If one is taught to ignore all the scientific evidence in the face of this once trusted, but undocumented, source saying otherwise, then how can one trust in one’s ability to assess any evidence? Which vehicle is the best buy? Should I be taking dietary supplements? Do I need to follow my doctor’s orders about this suspicious lump, or should I do what my pastor or Internet friends tell me about it? Should I buy this lottery ticket? If I really, really, super need this money for paying rent, does that mean God will make me win? You know, if I just believe hard enough? I mean, faith can move mountains, right? Or should I be buying some lentils and rice so my kids can eat, instead?
It’s all part and parcel. You can’t teach someone to weigh evidence and look at data to make an informed decision about things, EXCEPT OVER HERE, OH MY G-D, THAT IS ALL LOES AND BLASPHEMY AND YOU ARE GOING TO HELL FOE EVEN WONDERING WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS OH MY G-D.
Honestly, I think having a juror or a judge who believes in YEC ought to be grounds for a mistrial, based simply on their obvious, stated inability to impartially weigh evidence.
–I wonder if there’s a higher incidence of being taken in by scams amongst that demographic? It might make for an interesting study. But certainly the part where you completely ignore the rational and accumulated scientific data and evidence in favour of diametrically-opposed stories is not going to carry over well to the rest of your life, at all, at all.
Not just that, but theology like the one Joyce and Becky’s learned teaches that young earth creationism is the very foundation of belief in God and you can’t believe in God without it. So it’s not surprising that she’d have a harder time with this.
I think it’s just that Joyce has been fighting and wrestling with that stuff since she got here, and Becky’s pretty much rolling with the science.
Joyce is currently suffering a massive crisis of faith, realising how toxic her upbringing was, how many lies and half-truths she was fed, while trying to reconcile that with her beliefs, which are very important to her. Since the beginning she’s been surrounded by people who not only don’t share her beliefs but several often mock them or declair them outright horrible.
Now, her best friend from childhood, someone who shared the same upbringing and she thought shared the same beliefs and values is now seemingly tossing it all away without even a thought or care or any angst.
I think you’re on to something there. If Becky struggles with her current faith she doesn’t show it. She’s hurt when others try and argue that faith would necessitate viewing her as a sinner, but she doesn’t show herself to really grapple and angst over making her faith and her life mesh. In her eyes, it seems like if something doesn’t mesh, then the faith needs to change to accommodate that and that’s no big whoop.
To Joyce, who’s locked herself in toilets for all she’s agonized over every single challenge to her faith’s worldview, this must be grating as hell. Like, you had it worse and yet you aren’t having a crisis of faith like me and you are even able to kiss girlfriends and read about evolution without hating yourself and you came from the same faith.
It’s like she feels alone and abandoned by the one who should have been able to understand her crisis the most.
I think this is the best way of explaining what Joyce is thinking that I’ve seen so far.
Agreed. In general, Cerberus’s thoughts is about 95% of why I read the comments, and if Willis ever thinks about shutting down the comments, then Cerberus is what will stay his hand.
so what you are saying is that Cerberus is the guardian of hell
Cerberus is pretty dang rad, yo.
I agree, that was pretty much my read on this page as well.
She is getting worse, but can you blame her?
Yes.
internet people are very good at that.
Dijon ketchup!
If I had $1,000,000…
Dijon makes moutarde, not ketchup ! *groan*
They make spicy ketchups!
That’s my fear, too. Hope we see a return of her happiness soon.
Joyce hasn’t been holding up very well for a while now, I think. Hell, I think Sarah is now the nicer roommate
Seeing Sarah’s last interaction with Jacob she hasn’t really been holding well either.
Your gravatar adds that little extra something to your comment. Also, she’s done this pretty much every time evolution gets brought up. Though she does seem angrier than normal.
Boy, there’s nothing I love more than reading about a whole bunch of species dying!
Fun fact: at least 99% of all species that have ever lived on Earth have died.
Good luck, Becky.
JoyceXmike
Imagine the hate sex….
Most epic.
Even if it’s in the cards, it’s gonna be quite a while, unless Joyce has some form of psychotic break.
Which would probably be quite a turn-on for Mike.
I don’t agree.
Mike loves to totally lay the realism on people. He tells it like it is.
Mike is not stupid, he knows Joyce has had an overdose of realism and needs to assimulate it. Besides, he’s always treated Joyce better than anyone else: for the most part.
I think he’d be turned on if her break involved rage and possibly violence.
If Shortpacked!Mike is any indication, he can set that aside to do what he thinks is best for Joyce.
Mike would find her louzy in the sack.
I have more chance of having sex with Joyce than Mike does, and I’m in another universe and Joyce is rather too young for me.
If I were Willis, this comment would make me rub my hands together evilly and think, “Challenge accepted.”
It’s probably a good thing that I’m not Willis.
If you were Willis you could just point to the Its Walky reuploads right now.
Shhh. If more comments show up, maybe he’l see it.
We can only hope, because it’d be hilarious.
I’m looking forward to it.
man i wish
I hate the idea of this incarnation of Mike with anyone, but of all the characters, he’d probably “work” the best with Joyce. They have a weird sort of mutual respect of each other.
Honestly, I have some chips on another woman being her first time.
“Damn mass extinctions!”
“Hey Joyce, it says here that Earth was created billions of years ago-”
“I’M NOT LISTENING!”
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE. (Sorry, somebody had to.)
*plays the “Fossils” movement from Camille Saint-Saens’ CARNIVAL OF THE ANIMALS on the hacked Muzak*
Becky voices my exact concerns 🙁
“Wanted, one best friend, but not changing so much so fast,” except the angry version?
Wanted, one best friend, but not-EEK IS SHE GOING TO EAT ME?!?
Becky would be a lot happier about these developments if she thought there was a chance that Joyce was going to eat her.
I’m scared though I feel like Joyce is gonna reach through the screen and punch me
Even with all the positive changes, you can’t get rid of the negative ones. Hopefully some of the negatives will shift into something better in the end.
I feel like someone needs to have a talk with Joyce about how friends changing doesn’t mean they’re not your friends…
or I dunno. I might’ve phrased that wrong. At the very least, Joyce needs a hug.
The whole “friends changing” is not one sided here. Joyce is doing a lot of changing herself. One can survive she’s changed more than Becky. Becky didn’t wake up one day and decide to be gay. She always has been. In some ways she’s in a better place than Joyce right now because she finally free of all the deception. Joyce, on the other hand, is having to deal with the revelation that most, if not all, of her closely held beliefs are all a huge heaping pile of shit.
*One can assume*. I don’t know how my tablet got survive out of assume.
Probably a typo of “surmise.”
I’m gonna…just…uh…(scoots away awkwardly from Joyce) not be here…
Joyce needs to be needed. She does not approve of self-sufficiency.
I don’t think that’s the idea.
I think Joyce gets affirmation out of helping people, and particularly out of rescuing people. Perhaps even out of putting herself out to rescue people. She made sacrifices — big sacrifices — to support Becky at a time when Becky needed it. And it made her feel good: overcame her fears for a while, assuaged her anxieties, made her feel worthwhile and in control. To say that she does not approve of self-sufficiency was more wry and sardonic than precise; she would, however, feel more secure if Becky gave signs of needing her.
Or perhaps I’m projecting my mother onto her, who definitely did that.
In a way I agree with you. Joyce is very possessive of her friends. And Becky is handling the major shift in viewpoint that both shared due to their religious upbringing.
Becky is changing faster that Joyce can and handling it well. That is just one more thing Joyce has to process. Looks like evolution is her bottom line at this point. And Becky being so light hearted about it really made her mad.
I think what we’re seeing from Joyce is resentment that Becky seems to be handling their crisis of faith more easily than she is. Trouble is, that’s an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Joyce is trying to reconcile her long-held beliefs with her newly broadened worldview. Reality and personal experience have contradicted some of the basic principles she accepted as absolute fact. She’s not ready to completely put that part of her life aside yet.
Becky has nothing to gain from that. She’s been told that a core aspect of her personality is evil since before she even knew it about herself, and even if she had any family left she’d be a pariah in their community. Instead of rebuilding what’s left of her old fundamentalism, she’s burying her emotions with the rubble and starting fresh.
Joyce is suffering change shock. Evolution is where she draws the line! You know, despite it being such a weird place to draw since almost all of the groups I belong to believe in it and only the most absolutely fringe groups disagree with it.
“I’ll accept to your lesbian shenanigans but DINOSAURS ARE TOO FAR BECKY YOU’VE GONE TOO FAR”
I feel like it’s not that Joyce is angry with Becky, but that her worldview is being challenged and upended and she isn’t sure how to process and is doubting everything she used to believe as sacred.
Oh, and making really scary faces. O.o
I buy that. She’s triggered by anything that hits at that automatic regard for how she was taught and evolution is one of those big giant things for her.
I love Joyce’s angry face. It’s gonna happen a LOT while she goes through this enlightenment. It’ll be worth it, Joyce and Becky, just hang in there!
Respect her choices, Joyce.
I’m sure she does,but the evolution thing reminded of her beliefs with which she’s in conflict.
Isn’t it ironic that Dorothy wants to be in politics, yet Joyce is the one beat qualified for the US Congress?
Well… that’s depressing.
Have you looked at a voter guide sheet lately? Welcome to 2016, election year.
Yeah, those are depressing too.
Excuse me, I just found a use for 2½ quarts of ice cream…
You sold them to me?
Now I’m imagining a scenario where Joyce runs for president as Dorothy’s puppet.
Joyce is getting real tired of Becky’s happiness
I worry Joyce might have PTSD. Everything she knew was proved wrong in the worst way possible. Then to top it off gun, car chase and crash. Maybe she’s angry because she can’t help but be. She might keep thinking back to what her mother and what Toe Dad said.
That’s just my theory though.
Oh, I think Joyce most likely had PTSD already, from that attempted rape a few weeks ago in-comic (at least, I think it was a few weeks ago). But I think she’s definitely deteriorating after the latest salvo of problems in her life.
And remember, the fuckhead (no better term for it. Not sorry) who attacked her was a preacher’s son who came off as devout at first -that CAN’T have helped any.
All of these. She had PTSD, now she has complex PTSD, coming from multiple sources.
Was he actually a preacher’s son, or was that just a line to get past Joyce’s defenses?
It only matters that she believed he was.
He may not have been a preacher’s son, but he was definitely enough of a fellow traveler to know the lingo, so even if that was part of the “game” he was running, he’s still a monster from the culture that told her that it was the only thing that could ensure morality.
IIRC he said that that part was true.
Either Willis or Ryan himself has said the ‘preacher’s son’ bit was true, I think.
I think it was Ryan, shortly before he got hit with the bat.
Yes, it was Ryan himself, and at that point, he didn’t really have a reason to lie about it anymore.
joyce noooooooo
I’m a bit confused about why Joyce looks quite that angry, but I’m assuming it has something to do with Becky (seemingly) completely abandoning her religion, which I guess, to Joyce, was a major factor in their relationship. But come on, Joyce, can you really blame her?
(That or she’s mad for another reason entirely and we will find out why tomorrow.)
She hasn’t. Becky still goes to mass.
Oh, I wouldn’t call it “mass” to her face if I were you. Only Catholics go to Mass!
ah, whatever protestants calls it then. my bad.
“Services”? *shrugs* When I was Anglican we did go to the midnight mass on Christmas Eve, so.
Cool, I’m Sierra.
Hey, you guys would know; do Protestants have the Queen as head of the Church the way Anglicans do? If not, who is?
Just wondering.
Nope, that’s just Anglicans. Religions founded by kings tend to be royal-centric. Most Protestant religions were founded from Lutheranism, not Anglicanism.
I know Presbyterians are somehow a version of Anglicans, but I’m not sure who they call the head of the church. I doubt it’s the ruler of England.
Found my own answer – the word ‘presbyterian’ refers to a religious doctrine of rule through councils of elders. So, no single ruler for the Presbyterians.
I think the head of the Presbyterian Church is an elected person with the title “Moderator”. Or there might be a moderator in each ~country.
If I remember a short lesson from my Grade 12 English teacher (and assuming he’s right at all),
the Anglican religion was formed when the then-current King of England wanted his own denomination of Christianity that was equal to the Catholicism of France.
That’s why it’s called “Anglican”; it’s from England. And that’s why it has a monarch as the head.
All of this is probably totally wrong (or at least incredibly simplified).
Well.
Down there, it’s mostly known as having been basically created by Henri VIII so he could divorce and remarry.
The Tudor King Henry VIII started the split. The Church of Rome would not grant him a divorce, so he does the obvious thing (joke) and makes himself the head of the church.
Executive summary:
http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/tudors/religion.htm
The state then varies between Catholic and Protestant until Queen Elizabeth when church-going is made mandatory. I hadn’t realised that Elizabeth I was such a nasty piece of work. Catholics and Protestants were tortured, burned etc throughout her reign.
Catholics in the UK were not emancipated until the 1830s. Even now, on Guy Fawkes night, the Brits “celebrate” burning Catholics, although I suspect that bit has been forgotten.
Queen Betty is still head of the church in the UK.
She is in Canada, as well. Anglican churches have a picture of her somewhere in there, often in the foyer.
I mean, the whole thing is kind of weird to me. Back when I was a Christian, I liked the Anglicans the best (and still kind of do; they were one of the first flavours to allow women priests, and gay marriages); but actually relying on it to get me into Heaven felt wrong, somehow, when I knew the Church and a lot of its doctrines (the ones that weren’t simply copied wholesale from the Catholics, because what Henry basically did was say, “Yes, okay, we now have a new flavour of Christian, and it’s identical to the one we already have, except I’m the head, not the pope, and divorces are just fine, thanks,”) were largely made up, and quite recently, as these things go, which means it may not be legit. However, it felt more comfortable than the few other flavours I had contact with, being fairly small-L liberal and being fully on board with science and stuff. But at least part of that was probably because it’s the one I was raised with, and therefore familiar.
I figured that “authentic” Christianity was probably either Catholic (coming down, allegedly, from Saint Peter, more or less the first pope), or, like, Eastern Orthodox, which I think is one of the oldest flavours (although I may be mistaken).
These days I’m Heathen so it’s all irrelevant to me anyways. Besides, Christ just said you had to accept him as your personal saviour and live your life as best as you could, which one can do with any branch (in theory, although I’m not sure about Westboro Baptist).
Anglicans do get to hear the Queen’s Christmas speech in the original language without needing a translator, though (provided they speak English), which is cool from the head of your Church and not something I’m sure non-Italian-speaking Catholics get. Dunno who everyone else hears from at Christmas.
I regard the whole church-state thing as medieval rubble which needs to be swept aside for modern-day rubble to take it’s place.
Seriously though. The thing makes the UK look like a cheap Gormenghast knock-off, but most people don’t like change. Having an independent judiciary and a Human Rights Act was enough to send the idiots into a fit of the vapours.
Cameron is a cousin to the Queen. The Queen reigns due to the fact that she keeps a low profile. Harry is a bastard yet everyone treats him as if he’s a blood relation to the Queen. Harry is the first Englishman to get near the Royal Toilet Seat since the Tudors ffs, the rest of them are Germans.
Off with their heads! Vive la Republique!
grr.
Here’s a quick shorthand: (tongue firmly in cheek)
Anglicans do not recognize the authority of the Pope.
Methodists do not recognize the authority of the Bishops.
Baptists do not recognize each other at the liquor store.
Joyce is questioning all the teachings she’s had growing up more than ever before now and this is not helping.
Is this a killing book?
if you aim well.
“How to Use Found Objects as Weapons” <>
Once again I feel a mild desire to make a Patreon account. Is the backlog of bonus strips available to patrons?
It is.
Only 20 nickels a month.
She actually looks Mean, and not annoyed or stubborn. This.. is not good.
Anti-Joyce is watching, and thinking,
“…
…
…
SOON”
Hey look at the bright side walky at least it ain’t you for a change.
I thought I was gonna be cheered up by DoA after today’s Scary Go Round, but noooooo chaaaaaance
Takeaway of the day: Beneath all the cheer, Joyce is downright scary.
“Control, we’re approaching critical mass. Detonation in 5……4……3….”
At least Joyce isn’t shooting the things she doesn’t want to face in the head.
Word to the wise Becky, never make sarcastic jabs towards your best friend the next day after she watched you nearly get killed.
wasn’t it 4-5 days ago ?
The DOA book that contains this arc should totally be called “Unstoppable Lesbian vs. Immovable Christian”.
I think it should be “I Would Die for You”. Contrasts great with the rest of the book titles in terms of length.
hey remember when Becky was contemplating leaving poor old Agrophobiacomputer Joyce Alone like an asshole and few stripes back?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/eloneoneone/
Ya I think this is the appropriate amount of karma right here.
That strip literally has Becky says she should go spend time with Joyce anyway because she cares about her, even though it’s cutting into her time with Dina, and when Becky left Joyce she was surrounded by three other people.
Spencer: In addition to the strip you’re referring to, Becky did not know that Joyce were going to be alone in the first place, because that happened unexpectedly:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/underhanded/
Oh, and how about the fact that Becky doesn’t even know about Joyce’s fear of walking alone across camp:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/damngirl/
In short, as far as Becky knew at the time, Joyce were hanging out with her friends and being perfectly content. And yeah, when you got yourself a special someone that you’re falling in love with, of course you want to spend more time with them (as in, ALL OF THE TIME FOREVER!!!)… And Becky still nevertheless managed to be considerate enough to think about giving Joyce some face time in the strip that newllend(henryvolt) linked.
So yeah, about that karma…
This is Joyce coping with her new found world. Its not likely simply because of Becky’s last few statements, but looking back a few comics, she hasn’t changed her expression. Simply put; the world is broken, and she is feeling that break. She feels the disconnection from her home growing, and hates it. She hates seeing her best friends father in jail, but more-so hates knowing why he’s there. She feels the distance between her and her family, one that started long ago, growing large because of this new world view. Lets be honest; this isn’t because of Becky, but she does share a part, and hates it.
Mass extinctions make a good read because consensus hasn’t hardened on them yet. It’s real science in the making. Controversy within science. Who knew?
There’s nothing like reading “hey, at that time only 60% of the species disappeared, too low, doesn’t count as a mass extinction”
Exactly. Animals and plants vanish from air, land, and water. Not something that could happen again.
You’d be surprised.
Science is fuckin’ metal.
Well, some of it, at least. A lot of it uses polymers and organic compounds.
Science hardly needs encouragement to teach the controversy when there actually is a controversy. Science mobs substantial controversy like a ravenous swarm of PhD candidates looking for a thesis topic.
Sorry, that ought to have had more signposts indicating vigorous agreement.
I’m always amused when I hear people claim that “scientists” are conspiring to suppress or ignore their theory. They obviously don’t know any real scientists.
Most scientific debates that I have witnessed or read have been polite, but there have been some humdingers. Coincidentally or not, extinctions provoke some of the most heated arguments.
Missing the triangrin. Hope this doesn’t break her happy for too long.
Shit. And Joyce just became a murderer over in the latest It’s Walky! reupload, too.
My personal favorite is the Permian–Triassic extinction event.
Mine too. The biggest, without the best-confirmed cause.
Archaea did it!!!!
http://www.geek.com/science/earths-greatest-extinction-may-have-been-caused-by-a-microbe-1590079/
…although speaking as someone who works with archaea… it’s a neat theory but not closer to be confirmed than most of the other theories.
Cool article, but UGH, the comments. ><
Never read a comment section on anything on the Internet; they are all awful.
Except this comic of course…
Epimenides the Cretan sneers at your fussy exceptions!
We’ve been over this. There is significant consensus that the P-T extinction event was caused by Danny.
God dammit, Danny.
Me too. Frigging dinosaur extinction gets all the publicity 🙂
is it bad that just to screw with Joyce, I would start giving Becky the most non christian books ever
Heres a book about Easter religion
Heres a book about other habitual planets in the universe
Heres the complete works of Stephen Hawking.
If that happens, she’ll get stucked with the “pissed off” face.
Me: Also heres a link to slipshine
Becky: Is there lesbian sex?
Me: Plenty!
Later that night
Becky: Okay, Ive got a subscription time to look at sexy comics…wait a sec…is that the R.A? Billie? what are they doing on here? I wonder if anyone…Dorothy?! Why are all my friends on a porn site? WHY?
Twilight zone theme starts playing
It’s bad for you, yes. Have you looked at today’s It’s Walky! yet?
Hey, you are right! At “It’s Walky” Joyce is angry as well,but from other…reasons.
I would be much more careful about messing with a Joyce would could break my skull with one hand.
‘Easter religion’ seems like something she’d like.
…
Well, maybe not. A lot of these types seem to find Easter a bit too Papist and/or Pagan.
The thing is, there’s no actual conflict between Christianity and evolution. Creationism is entirely a product of certain Christian sects attempting to put the Bible up on a pedestal, not to be questioned by anyone.
Ah… not quite.
I mean, sure, hundreds of millions of Christians nowadays believe that evolution happened, and that as such, Genesis wasn’t meant literally.
But, um… that’s not how Christians (and Jews) saw it for most of these religions’ history. As a Christian from five centuries ago, and he’ll look at you funny if you suggest God DIDN’T create the whole damn thing in seven days.
There’s “no conflict” between Christianity and evolution… IF Christianity agrees to compromise on its holy text.
Didn’t the Catholic Church declare that the creation story (but not the Adam and Eve bit) was metaphorical and the days were not actual days several centuries ago? I’m Jewish, so I’m kinda fuzzy on this -feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
I don’t know about several centuries ago, but it’s 65 years since Pius XII made it official that the Catholic Church saw no conflict between evolution and God (though he also declared his own non-belief in Evolution) and 20-odd since John Paul II moved it a little further and straight up said that all the evidence points to evolution (being the method that God used). (Then Benedict XVI tried to walk it back, but Francis has reaffirmed JPII’s statement.)
You are aware that the person behind the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest in France, right? Christians accepting scientific evidence that contradict the Bible is not a recent phenomenon. The university of the Vatican City, in the heart of Catholic Christianity, in the city of Rome has been practicing and teaching the theory of evolution for over 50 years. And many of the scientific evidence throughout history was rejected because of political consequences. Christianity has a much longer secular history than most people think.
When Genesis was written, it basically reflected the standard world view of the ancient near East: a firmament amidst the waters of chaos, a solid sky above supported by pillars etc etc. The structure of the world (the backdrop) was never unique to the Hebrews; it’s the detail of how God and humanity fit within it that’s supposed to be the point of the story. (Hint: the instructive thing is to compare Genesis with other contemporary creation stories, not with the modern understanding.)
It’s only relatively recently that creationism (writ large) has become a Thing in its own right, rather than just the default understanding of the world, and it’s far more driven by politics and demagoguery than by any actual theological conflict. It’s part of the whole us-against-the-world RPG that the more cultish sects of Christianity have going on.
Here endeth the infodump.
Yes, but all the religious origin stories pre-date the scientific method. Now we know that thunder is not caused by Thor smiting giants and other foes (alas).
I know an ordained Methodist minister who completely believes in the theory of evolution. It’s because he does not take the Bible LITERALLY. He’s explained it as: “Yes, the Bible says God created the world in 7 days…but could an angel get a pastoral tribal priest who’s never seen more than a few dozen of anything, to grasp the concept of ‘billions’? Instead of explaining what God did in the first billion years of the universe’s existence, it would be far easier to say, ‘Yeah…so…in the first DAY God did this…’ ”
And yes, the “Bible-believing Christians” he knows, who take the Bible as 100% literal truth, think he’s going to hell.
That and the bible is a huge melting pot mixed with several legends and exageration from a few millenias ago.
Any time someone starts taking the Bible literally — for example, creation took exactly six 24-hour earth days — I merely point him or her to the fourth and fifth chapters of Genesis. This is the part which contains the story of Cain and Abel, and how Cain was cursed by being made a wanderer and a fugitive; and also documents how he settled in the land of Nod (which was a land said to be east of Eden), took a wife, and had a son Enoch; he also built up a city which he named Enoch after his son.
And then, in chapter five, it goes over the descendants of Adam, and this is the part where it says that Adam fathered Seth at the age of 130 and he lived for another 800 years after that; thus “all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and then he died” (Gen 5:5). His sons and other offspring were also extraordinarily long-lived, with son Seth attaining the age of 912; Seth’s son Enosh reached 905; and other descendants pretty much all attained 800 years or better.
This raises a couple of simple questions — where did the people in the land of Nod come from, if the only two specimens of humanity that God created were Adam and Eve; and how do you explain people having a lifetime of dambed near a millennium each? I wonder how Joyce would answer these if she were ever asked them point-blank.
I don’t think she would, especially after what she has experienced in these past five weeks in the DoA-verse. Those blue eyes of hers would expand until they became the BSoD, and Joyce as we know her would be no more.
It’s easy if you assume that the events of Genesis 2:6–7 occurred after the events of Genesis 1:27–28, i.e. in the order they are recounted. Then Adam is not the first man, man was not created before woman and to be a help meet for him. Adam’s and Eve’s descendants can then join the descendants of the first people, who were created during the Seven Days rather than in the subsequent Garden Incident.
That gives you a bit of a problem with Genesis 2:5, but frankly, if you combine two different creation myths by gluing the scrolls together you have to expect problems.
Before the Flood, there was a layer of water up in the sky, shielding Earth from space. This is referred to in the Bible as the “firmament.” This is what fell during the Flood, and once it was depleted, the Earth no longer had this shielding. While it was up there, it created special circumstances that promoted the longevity of living things, including allowing human beings to live longer.
I mean, that one’s easy. It’s a very common Creationist explanation.
As for Cain finding other human beings, clearly Adam and Eve had other offspring not mentioned (there was no birth control and they probably banged more than three times in 1000 years) and/or God just created more people after Adam and Eve and we didn’t hear about it.
and/or God just created more people after Adam and Eve and we didn’t hear about it
Wait, aren't we all supposed to be descendant from Adam and Eve? Serious question, I am curious now. Are there fundamentalist Christians who believe Adam and Even didn't sire all of humanity? I thought that was one of the core tenets.
I am not that knowledgeable of Christian mythology (specially Protestant mythology), but that surprises me.
We could be all descended from Adam and Eve while also being descended fro other people alive at the same time.
We are also supposed to be all descended from Noah and his wife (and their three sons’ wives).
Oh, fair enough. I haven’t thought about Noah and how his family would narrow the “family tree” again. As long we descend from him, we descend from Adam and Eve, I suppose.
Maybe it was Lilith running around popping out kids?
I once got in BIG trouble in a church by joking that since Cain (and maybe Able) didn’t have any women, maybe they made do with animals, and that’s why we look and act so much like dumb apes. Needless to say, the more narrow-minded people never spoke to me again. Goal achieved?
Huh. Those creationists are very, uh, creative.
Wikipedia has an article on firmament, surprise. It appears that it kept all that water up there, but might not have been made of water. My interlineal translation Old Testament uses the word “expanse” (from Hebrew raqiya) instead of firmament.
That’s a weird argument though. Other ancient people talk about “eras so long that mountains are built up and wear away again”. What was wrong with Hebrews that they couldn’t? Sure, it’s not exactly easy to imagine in full, but then it still isn’t to us. Calling them “days, but you know, not like [em]days[/em]” doesn’t seem like it would clarify anything.
Interesting and I totally disagree.Creationism is what was recognized as the basic world view: until Darwin’s era when fossils proved that extinctions occurred, which the Creationist said couldn’t happen: what God created, he would not allow to die out.
Creationism and Religion are 100% on opposite sides of this fence.
I actually really like this little theory, but it seems there are some exceptions.
Wikipedia says Dodo birds went extinct in 1662-ish while Origin of the Species came out in 1859. Granted your theory might be as to why people found it so shocking back in the day.
I need to double check but I think The Great Flood (Noah) wiped out unicorns, dragons and the Nephalim. Though I guess Creationists would know about extinction via the hand of God which is a slightly different concept.
My understanding of it was that “The Origin of Species” wasn’t really groundbreaking or shocking and was pretty well-regarded as an explanation of the mechanism God used to create the diversity of species we have today (I have a copy, and Darwin in it is very very careful to point to Linnaeus and others, and to pigeon fanciers, and to state, over and over and over again, that he wasn’t really saying anything new, or previously unknown; he was simply collating the existing ideas that people had been fine with for generations.
And people pretty much all accepted it as fine and rational, because, sure, what he was saying made sense, and, yes, pigeon fanciers were already using this knowledge to shape breeds (as were dog breeders, and horticulturists, again, as Darwin states), and that was fine.
The real uproar came along when he published “The Origin of Man,” because then, he wasn’t pointing out what everyone already knew about the development of plants and animals; he was saying that the same rules applied, and did apply to Man; that we weren’t a completely separate type of being, completely unrelated from the lower orders, but actually an intricate, integral part of the entire process. That we weren’t a type of subset of angel; we were an animal. With all the denigration the word “animal” implies, especially as applied to a human during the Victorian times.
Prior to that second book, the argument could be made that we had some kind of similarity with other animals on a very basic level, both being formed by God from similar materials (and both being able to bleed and reproduce, for example, and both needing to eat). However, Man was special; he had a spark of the Divine; he had a soul that animals could never hope to acquire; he was favoured of God. He fit so well into the world because God had made the world especially for him to fit into.
–And then Darwin came along and said that, no, God didn’t make us, whole and entire as we are today, indisputable master of all by divine right; we were just another animal. Who had evolved from other animals, and, even worse, the ones that ended up being our closest relatives looked like bizarre mockeries of us because they almost were us.
I suppose it must have been like spending one’s life knowing absolutely that shit was horrible and dirty and to be utterly avoided; and that incest was awful and wrong and just so, so problematic, only to have someone come along and claim, while offering scientific proof, that everything you ever ate, and especially everything you ever enjoyed, was actually just shit. Literal shit. You thought you were eating fruits and vegetables and meat and actually, they were just shit all along. And always would be. Because that’s all there ever was to eat, and ever would be to eat, and that’s all food ever was, would, or had been. Also your spouse was actually your sibling; everyone’s spouse was actually a sibling; and everything was a lie. Ha ha, here you thought you were not eating shit and sexing up your sister, and all along you were! And you can’t not! What, are you not going to eat? Tough; even if you stopped right now, everything you ever ate was already shit. And so was everything your kids ate. And your parents. And your spouse, who, hey is also your sister, and you’re fucking her, ha HA HAAA!!!
One can kind of understand the gut rejection of evolution when one thinks of it in those terms. Hey, everything your dog eats is actually shit; well, we already know he thinks cat poop is delicious and rolls in cow patties, but he’s a dog, ha ha, whatcha gonna do? That doesn’t affect what I’m eating.
Oh, but wait, ends up it does? FUCK YOOOOUUUUUUUUU.
I can absolutely understand clinging to the beautiful lie you were raised upon, that we were special; that we weren’t eating shit; that we weren’t fucking our sisters. Because we knew doing that was wrong, so how could we be doing it, and worst of all, with no options to stop? How could it just all be how the world worked?
–Having said that, you’d think that, this many generations having gone by, we’d have collectively realized that (A) Meh, whatever; and (B) ends up what was meant by “shit” wasn’t actually what your great great Grandma thought “shit” was, after all. Ends up it’s actually not “shit”; it’s just food. And you’re eating it. Same as your dog. And the common ancestor with your spouse wasn’t your parents after all; it was your great-great-great-great *[more than I can fit here] grand-uncle. So who cares, really.
Anyways. Sorry; that kind of got away from me.
Hell, he wasn’t even the first Darwin to talk about this stuff. His great-uncle Erasmus wrote some fairly famous works which touched on the subject as well.
Er…I goofed on this… Erasmus was Charles’ grandfather. I think I had him confused with his son Erasmus (who predeceased his father, which is, I think, what messed me up).
One minor nit: The book was “The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex”. It was published 12 years after Origin. The book title was the inspiration for the name of the great Jacob Bronowski series, “The Ascent of Man”.
There was instant acceptance from some quarters, including by leading clergymen — as you say, the idea that species had evolved was not new, only Darwin’s automatic mechanism. On the other had, there was instant condemnation, too. The famous debate between Bishop Wilberforce and Thomas Huxley was in 1860.
You have to bear in mind that the doctrines of Biblical literalism and Biblical inerrancy were in 1859 still recent enough that most people interested in the issues still knew that they were innovations and not immemorial tradition. And they were, as they have always been, non-mainstream-Christian doctrines subject to strigent criticism from theologians and Church leaders, on theological, logical, and textual grounds.
They didn’t say creationism, they said Christianity…
Holla! Ain’t no Extinction like a Mass Extinction!!!
Lesbian love, ok. Evolution….no just no, but heck no! Her hand probably totes, hurts still.
*glaaare*
The many smiles of Becky MacIntyre.
You know it’s really sad that Joyce got the kind of religious upbringing that not only teaches her to shun evolution education, but to get actively offended that it exists.
When I read this strip and see the commenters say “yup, this was my childhood” I am SO GRATEFUL my family, while religious, is/was not like this at all.
(heck my Catholic mother is the biggest proponent of science in my house)
Seconded. I’m incredibly glad my parents raised me so that I never felt there was a conflict between my faith and science. It worries me so much that Joyce’s story is clearly a reflection of large parts of the church.
Dang. Can’t anybody on that campus understand that Joyce needs a 10-minute hug? For crying out loud, why is that so hard to figure out?
I honestly expected/hoped “big sister” Sarah would drop her act in private and give Joyce the obviously needed hug when they got back to their room.
It’s not just an act, Sarah is naturally not a very touchy/emotional person./ She exaggerates it but it’s still just who she is.
Maybe she doesn’t want to admit it, even to herself, but she’s the one here,
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/sisters-2/
giving “sympathy through light physical contact” to “little sister” Joyce. But she might not be able to bring herself to actually hug an awake Joyce, even if she needed it.
Joyce is a bongo. Always has been behind that happy smile. Read back over some of the old strips. She has a steel core.
In particular, her remarks about people (Billie) as she is introducing Becky around. The way she treated Mike as her bodyguard date. Her dismissive attitude to people who don’t think like her.
Joyce was sad to realize her entire core of belif was based on b.s. Understandable.
But this strip is just plain anger/hate on her face.
I think a good deal of her anger is being proven wrong. Joyce does not like to be wrong. (who does? but some handle it better than others)
Joyce had a frightening experience in a near rape and broke a glass and shoved it in the guys face. This is not a ‘nice’ person. She had every right to do what she did and I cheer her on for it. But a ‘nice’ person couldn’t do it, they could scream and hit: but cut?
Joyce had friends there to help her (Sarah with a baseball bat, and Amazi Girl who tried).
Unless she wants to let it define her life, she better either put it behind her now…or if cant’ get therapy. I think the motorcycle ride put the fear to bed.
I have no understanding of the constant lament of ‘poor Joyce, she’s going to have a physic break’. To which I say b.s. Joyce is neither poor, nor in danger of any breakdown. She is angry.
She may kill someone, but she isn’t about to break.
Personally, I’d like to see her pull her head out of her butt and turn some concern on her so called best friend: who lost her mother to cancer, who has lived with a controlling abousive father, who went thru a horrible experience with her deranged father kidnapping her at gunpoint, smacking her around, rolling the car they were fleeing in, and then telling her when she tried to talk to him: that she was going to Hell and the blame for all their problems ect.
Compare the two’s reaction to their experiences: Becky comforted Joyce when Joyce was kicking the crap out of Toedad – seemed to me should’ve been the other way around.
Times I feel sorry for Joyce are fewer and farther between. Right now she being a sell-centered hateful person. She has a lot of luck in the friends she have who will try to work her thru this….maybe.
I absolutely agree with you that Joyce isn’t a delicate little flower. But she has largely (I mean, with “three” older brothers, there’s a limit, I feel) been raised to be one. Not that that’s the be all and end all, but… She’s stressed, she’s terrified, she’s being constantly overloaded with things she’s not prepared for or equipped to handle, her whole life keeps getting flipped, and she’s freaking eighteen years old and away from home for the first time. It feels like every person she interacts with challenges everything she’s been raised to believe -and that’s BEFORE we get into the disaster with Joe (that was her first date, right? And he was only trying to get into her pants?), getting drugged and almost raped, and the whole shitstorm with Becky and Toedad -which, I would like to point out, Becky dragged her into. It doesn’t matter WHAT kind of upbringing you have -how’s ANYONE supposed to be strong enough or composed enough or experienced enough to deal with all of that -let alone at this age? Not saying that Becky doesn’t need help and support, but Joyce does too -and Becky, unlike Joyce, can, to some extent, ask for it. (Becky’s also a much better liar -and I’m guessing she’s putting on one HELL of a poker face right now, since having to cut someone you honestly loved out of your life because of abuse is a really fucking shitty thing to have to do.)
Also… it is not my intention to go on the offensive here, but I don’t understand some of your reasoning, and I’d like clarification, if you don’t mind. Why do you feel that her automatic defensive reaction makes her not a nice person? She was drugged, and he grabbed her, and she lashed out at his face while she happened to be holding a glass. She didn’t know that Sarah was there. She didn’t know if anyone saw -it was an instinctive, automatic response. And Amazi-girl actually made things worse by creating a distraction that let the asshole escape. As for letting it define her… that was what, her second interaction with someone she saw as a potential love interest, during her first or second week of school, and that’s how it went? And even if she can put it in her past, that doesn’t mean anyone else will. The thing about having some sort of horrible event in your history is that once other people know about it, you often stop being a person and just become the victim of that event -even to the people who care about you. Becky is DEFINITELY going through a lot of shit, but she’s creating some bit of a support system, and while she’s having to rebuild, she wasn’t happy before. Joyce was (and maybe still is) having to cut herself off from the support of her family in order to help Becky and having to completely rebuild herself and rewrite her worldview, but she had to have a happy life utterly destroyed first.
I love this comment! Expanding on a point with regards to Joyce’s automatic response, I want to also note that no one gets to pick their trauma response. Fight, flight, or freeze responses in the moment don’t care who you are normally.
You can be the most badass, rough and tumble motherfucker on the planet and just freeze up completely during traumatic moments. You can be a chillax laid-back, calm under pressure mo-fo and just bolt as soon as shit goes sideways. You can be timid as a mouse, scared to even hint at a curse like mother-that-thing and be pummeling your attacker or a person who triggered you like a crazed hyena.
The amygdala does not care about personality or logic or sense. It responds only to trauma and defaulting to one of those three. I’ve known those who’ve been triggered in elevators and injured their arms trying to run away even though logically they knew it was impossible. I’ve known people who’ve blamed themselves for years because they just went stiff the moment a rapist started touching them. I’ve known people who’ve nearly killed their partners because they triggered a bad memory by accidentally approaching from behind.
Joyce’s trauma response literally has nothing to do with her personality or who she is even if it was something to be ashamed of in the first place.
yeah seriously, you can be a nice person and still defend yourself from an attack. there’s a limit to “turning the other cheek”, ya know…
I was willing to listen to your points , until you said that Joyce wasn’t nice because she shoved a glass into a fucking attempted rapist’s face.
Aw fuck I put the email in wrong
Dammit! It better fucking work this time
can we just forget this ever happened?
Kinda spooky
No. It is forever. You will now be Someone Who Messed Up Their Email Twice in a Row.
Yeah, there’s always Someone…
What is up with people making that argument of late? Hella skeezy.
Like fuck we’re supposed to look down on Joyce for that. Fuck, I can only wish I shoved a glass in my rapist’s face.
I think that IDontcarenomore was making the rather redundant point that Ryan was not a nice person and therefore deserved to get glassed in the face.
No, they were talking about Joyce; they specified that a “nice” person could have screamed or hit him but cutting him is something only a not-nice person would do. I am…unimpressed with this argument.
Yeah, I have difficulty understanding how exactly IDontcarenomore can come to that sort of conclusion, and upon rereading I’m kind of wondering how I didn’t realize what he/she/etc. said, but since I seem to remember IDontcarenomore doing something like this before…
+1
It’s not really an ‘of late’ thing. Go back and read the comments during the attempted rape and you’ll find people calling both Joyce and Sarah violent assholes who should be condemned for hitting a guy who had only drugged and assaulted someone.
But nice girls don’t fight back.
/sarcasm.
Joyce was raised to believe that God won’t give her anything she can’t handle, but the last couple of weeks has shown her that things happen that no one can handle. She was attacked in the most vile way possible and barely managed to escape (shoving the glass in her attacker’s face doesn’t make her a bad person. You can still be a nice person and defend yourself in whatever way is possible. If you are attacked and kill your attacker, judgment falls on them, not you. As far as a possible breakdown, she’s seen her entire belief system crumble. The adults she loved and trusted, including her own mother, are now suspect. She doesn’t know where to turn or who to trust. The fact that her best friend has embraced everything she was taught was wrong isn’t helping. A breakdown is a real possibility, but a screaming session where she unloads all of her fear and frustration on her friends is also possible. As for Joyce being a delicate flower. Of course she is, but you need to remember the truth in the term “Steel Magnolia.”
I’d only agree on Joyce being a b!tch in the Latrice Royale sense: Joyce is indeed a Being In Total Control of Herself. I find it funny that you think she’s got a dismissive attitude towards people who disagree with her when none of her friends believe the things she believes in. Or that you think that feeling ire is a negative character trait that negates all your positives. Or that a response rooted in traumatic fear negates your character. You’re a riot to laugh at!
I wouldn’t say Joyce is not a “nice person” because she glassed a guy instead I’d suggest that Joyce has shown that she’s naturally quite violently aggressive
Sometimes that’s a good thing, Ryan specifically, but not when it comes to joining in the beat down on Joe or having to be dragged of Toedad (decking him fine but once he was down it verged into assault territory)
Also the face she shows Roz before Roz hits home with some choice words showed she was about to retaliate (probably verbally), her threatened ostracism of Billie after Billie was defending herself and her hateful words to Sarah tells me she has some major anger issues to deal with
I am conflicted.
On the one hand, I feel like she’s been through so much already, I want to let her have what she has left. Not permanently, but for a little while. Her holy security blanket is so hole-y already!
On the other hand. I’m scared she’ll take what’s left of it and cling to what’s left of it harder than ever before, if given time. ;;;;
Hm… I don’t know. I feel like it can be healthy to have and recognize the holes in the security blanket of religion. Joyce was doing so well in that regard, too – I hate to see her ignore the masses of factual evidence in favor of her upbringing. I’m kinda surprised this is the thing she’s latched onto, to be honest.
I think she’s been able to hod onto it because less obvious harm is done by creationism. Joyce has seen that it’s harmful to her and the people around her to not reach out to and befriend atheists, and dismiss them as bad people when they clearly aren’t. She’s seen first hand the harm the church’s homophobia has on Becky. By contrast, people will laugh at her and call her wrong for being so dismissive of evolution, but her creationism doesn’t visibly harm other people or ruin her personal life in the same way the other attitudes she’s let go of do.
………PS: the more I learn of any incarnation about Leslie Bean, the more I love my icon. <3 <3 <3
I’m surprised how fitting the icon I got was – not necessarily in terms of personality, but in terms of stuff I like to wear.
Aww, Becky! You go, you baby evolutionary biologist, you.
I know. It’s really awesome. As a teacher, there’s nothing better than seeing a story of someone discovering their love for a subject.
She’s going to be an amazing student.
Just wondering, but aside from Sierra and …Agnes, was it? The Mormon girl? have we seen any practicing Christian characters who are neither anti-science nor assholes?
I dunno, it depends on the definition of asshole. I mean, most of the characters are of faith. And of the women, there’s at least two in the scene right now that are very much believers and not anti-science (Becky and Billie).
Billie’s identified as christian, but we haven’t really seen any signs of her practicing.
Also, billie’s assholishness or lack thereof is a matter of debate.
Danny practices enough that he considers going to church a part of his routine. I don’t think he’s gone to one during the course of the series, though.
FTR, the Mormon girl is Agatha.
There’s Becky, as has been stated (though she’s only recently stopped being anti-science).
Danny seems to identify as Christian, and for all his faults he’s not really an asshole like the Christian assholes are.
Well since I’m pretty sure that most the characters have some sort of faith with the exception of Dorothy (And maybe Walky), the answer is probably. I’d say it depends on your definition of asshole. (Joyce, and formerly Becky seem to be the only anti science ones. Probably Mary too though)
What about Dina? Do we have any indications as to her faith and religious background?
She is very much an atheist.
I think in the old universe she was an atheist. I suppose that carries over? We haven’t heard anything to the contrary.
Press the “First” button…
Then press the “Latest” button…
Repeat this process a few times.
Enter downward spiral.
Cry.
Return to step 1.
Repeat for eternity.
So for Becky it’s an evolution revolution?
Ouch. If looks could kill, Becky would be a diffuse yellow spray by now. The fact that Walky has noticed Joyce’s angry look means that it must be really overt!
Personally, I think that we’re on a countdown to her having a pretty dramatic blow-up or breakdown. The worrying thing is how many innocents will be caught in the blast radius.
Everyone will be in the blast radius…
Another universe desroy’d by the almighty WILLIS.
oh, Becky probably not, but the book surely would have burst into flames.
If Willis was a TRULY sadistic bastard, (and he his, but we love him for it), this is the part where joyce makes friends with the one person near her who still holds on to religion like she does.
Mary.
Fun times await down that road.
In the Patreon thread for this one, there was a bit about how she’s echoing Mary’s face in her glare here. Between that and this comic, I’m genuinely wondering if one of the major reasons that Mary is so in-your-face about her judgments is that she’s losing her faith and is trying to force everyone else to live by her faith so that she can still try and cling to it.
mary is angry at the world for failing to meet the impossibly high standards she also failed to meet
That MIGHT be true in this timeline, but if you go by Mary’s Walkyverse characterization, she really just IS that horrible of a person, and likes handing judgement on others.
It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out in this timeline, especially because i have a sneaking suspicion that her knowing about Billie and Ruth is about to become relevant again.
Don’t forget the hypocrisy!
Given how some of the Walkyverse plots have worked their way into the backstory (Sal being separated from Walky, Ruth having a tragic incident involving a car accident), I personally theorize Mary as having had an abortion previously, and she’s hiding scars under her wristbands from a suicide attempt.
Or she’s just a jerkface and I’m clawing at an attempt to see her in a more sympathetic light. Either or.
I doubt she would’ve had an abortion. Though, if she DID maybe that would explain her hardcore attitude. She has to save herself. She has to be forgiven. Idk
Yeah, that’s sort of what I’m thinking. She’s doubling down on being a Christian Warrior Assqueen because she “sinned” so she has to make sure she polices the morals of everyone else.
From talking to some clinic workers and volunteers, it’s apparently pretty common – hardcore pro-life protester comes in for an abortion then is back out on the protest lines not long after. It’s different for them, you see. They had good reasons.
There’s a preview panel from a few months down the road that shows Mary without her wristbands and in 3/4-length sleeves, so I may have to abandon the “hiding scars” theory.
Possibly. I remember we once saw Sal without her gloves on.
At the least I’m kind of hoping Mary isn’t just the 2D asshole we’ve seen. Toedad was genuinely antagonistic and awful and we weren’t supposed to sympathize with him, but he felt realized. It’s kind of hard to view Mary as a credible threat to Billie and Ruth when there’s nothing to her as a character.
Sometimes though, there’s just asshole alla way down.
Nobody’s a total asshole.
Even Walkyverse Mary, who has an unshakable claim at Queen Bint of the Universe, was nice on occasion. A character, any character, only being able to react in one specific way regardless of circumstance is completely boring.
No, she acted nice, it was all shallow. She’d turn on and condemn anyone in a second.
Not really. Before she became Raging Asshole Mary, she was a fairly pleasant, if nagging friend to Danny. She seemed to try and make amends with Billie in the Roomies epilogue. She somehow managed to rope that one doctor guy into marrying her. She was a self righteous asshole who morally excused herself for the same actions she’d condemn anyone else for, but being a jerkface is a far cry from Completely Irredeemable.
Anyway, if she does just start as a jerk and end as a jerk, then really what was even the point of involving her in the first place? What does she bring to the table other than being a cardboard antagonist I totally want to succeed because goddamn Billie/Ruth needs to stop.
Hmm, that’s a really compelling possibility and I can definitely see wrist warmers hiding scars. I suppose we’ll just have to see, but if accurate that could hold some interesting possibilities.
Or Mary could say something stupid and get punched by said Joyce.
Let’s hope for that one.
*death stare*
She’s angry because from her prospective, Becky is on the Highway to Hell via Evilutionary Drive.
No, she’s angry because her comfortable pre-college world is falling apart and, being human, she’s starting to assign scapegoats.
She needs to alter herself before she decides to stick Becky on an alter.
PREDICTION: Joyce is going to decide that college is the cause of all her problems and ask her parents to take her home. After a few days at home, she’s going to realise that she likes her parents’ self-righteousness just as little as she likes the self-satisfied progressivism of modern college life.
“Self-satisfied progressivism”? I guess this means Roz, or…maybe Walky…what exactly are you describing here?
Joyce’s likely viewpoint of the college environment right now.
Angry Joyce – one of the few things that can make Becky’s smile falter
If I understand Becky correctly, it’s more an issue of long-term angry Joyce – Becky isn’t used to her breezy light-hearted nature failing to turn Joyce’s frown around and it’s starting to freak her out.
Haha, I teach that class (albeit not at IU, at another Big-ass Midwestern University)!
>:( (°~°) (-_-)
Today’s DoA: Angry Joyce.
Today’s It’s Walky! repost: VERY angry Joyce.
Coincidence?
Yes.
Joyce being angry for satained periods of time is concerning.
Googled “satained” and it kept trying to auto-correct to ‘sustained’. Is that what you were going for?
Oh HAI, Kaitlin, how’s your sex life?
I feel like if Dina and Sarah were teasing this Joyce about vaccines they’d be the ones crying in pain.
Someone needs to remind Joyce that EVERYTHING isn’t broken, there’s still ICE CREAM.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/softserve/
I feel like this is where Walky and Joyce actually become close and he helps her come to terms with what happens and they show the parts of themselves that get along well enough to get married in another universe.
Willis unless you read every comment, you’ll not see this, but having read the backlog of your work by January 2015, and then keeping up with DoA since then, i’m consistently amazed in how parallel your experiences were, at least as you’ve portrayed in your comics, with those of my ex.
Either it’s an amazing string of coincidences, or evangelical creationist upbringings are disturbingly similar across the board.
I want to hug Joyce and take her out for ice cream and just let her vent all her feelings. Sal is right, Joyce needs to talk to someone.
I just realized that Becky’s wearing the same shirt as in her first appearance!
I feel like joyce needs a bowl of cadbury egg cereal.
She might wake up a senator though…
So much like Becky treated Joyce as a surrogate authority figure and as such someone she could safely rail against its looking like Joyce is not happy that Becky can (from Joyces pov) trivialize and bounce back from such a traumatic experience
A couple other things to consider that might be affecting Joyce’s reaction to all this stuff:
– Becky was the one that told Joyce not to let going to college change her, and Becky’s the one that’s changed the most. (Seems almost hypocritical, now…)
– Becky is actually happy to be changing her worldviews and being open about her preferences, while Joyce is trying hard not to change and lose the faith she grew up with. (Also, Becky’s lost her parents’ acceptance, while Joyce is trying not to, but also trying to understand how her parents actually are when compared to this new non-insular world she’s being presented with.)
– Joyce has had conflicts and bad things happen due to her naivete and blind faith. (After all, Ryan used it as an in, for example.) While Becky has too, given all this recent stuff, she’s come out the better, having come to grips with who she really wants to be, and because she gained Dina through it all as well.
– And last, while Joyce may still be Becky’s best friend, Becky’s got Dina now. (Hey, Jealousy…)
And something makes me believe that the last point is the real issue that Joyce is having to reconcile. Prior to her meeting Dina, Joyce was the most important person at IU to Becky. Now, she’s a definite #2.
Poor Joyce. Collateral damage isn’t pretty.
Becky did admit (teary eyed) that she’s glad that Joyce became more accepting at University.
I feel like the conversation between Joyce and her mother really cemented that people of faith can be misguided. It’s been a steady trend (Ryan the pastor’s son, churches/families turning away endangered homosexual youth, Becky’s Dad). I imagine Joyce has decided to turn even harder into the part of her belief system she thinks is infallible, the actual teachings and scriptures of the bible. It allowed her to explain her friendship to Dorothy and reinforce her acceptance of Becky. I don’t think she’s ready to completely drop her faith, because it’s such a large part of her life.
So, I think this reaction has a lot to do with Becky going against the only stuff Joyce has left to rely on.
It’s still really shitty for her to just mean mug at her, and not talk it out. As much as I dislike Joyce’s early preachiness, at least she’d say her thoughts so someone could disagree with her.
One point I’d like to make Kraken, that while I agree that this series has had a steady trend showing how blind faith can end up with (potentially) misguided actions occurring, Ryan isn’t one of them. I think that he’s just an unsub (a la Criminal Minds jargon) waiting to happen and that his faith is pretty much non-existent, given that he tried to use his knowledge of religion to assault Joyce. I think that the fact he tried to roofie her speaks volumes to the idea that he IS a criminal at heart, and has no problems taking from others whatever he wants without any care.
As for Joyce in this one, the more I reread it, the more I think that Joyce’s anger is less about the whole evolution thing and more about being the best friend of the person who’s just started dating someone and can only talk about that new person they’re dating. For everything that they’ve all gone through in the last day, Becky’s been saying “DINADINaDInaDinadina” almost incessantly since everything started, and what stands out about Becky after it was all over (other than the scene where she went to see her dad) was her being proud of Dina for biting her dad, her getting her stuff from Anderson to move to IU to be with Dina, and her starting to walk the same path as Dina in both faith (away from Christian fundamentals) and in interest (science).
She’s showing signs of jealousy as the jilted best friend. I think it will pass, though the fact that it’s entangled with faith will make it a stickier web.
Ah yes, the angry fundie face. I once had one myself.
I’ve been reading a paleontology book, too. And I’ve learned about “Big Bone Lick” State Park. It calls itself the “birthplace of American paleontology.” It’s about a three hour road trip for the characters and I can picture all of them excitedly chanting Big Bone Lick!
This is the Becky I like and can warm to, not pretending to be someone or something but instead being natural
Go her!
Maybe Joyce is just angry at the world.
That’s what I’m thinking, too.
Wait someone mentioned Joyce getting roof-ied, I don’t think Becky knows about this does she??? :O So many problems, poor cinnamon roll, too pure for this world.
Actually she has.
Becky has a severe case of Donkey Kong mouth.
I think of that as Ataru Moroboshi mouth.
*
Why Joyce, Why must you stare into my soul?
Oh Joyce.
Damn. That is the scariest Joyce face ever. That is a scarer Joyce face than I could have believed possible.